COST v. NAME - General Discussion

[I'mFillingFine]

I would like to get a seperate discussion going on whether or not it's worth it to go to a state school and save money or attend a private (or Ivy) and get the higher specialty placement and benefit of the name when you're trying to buy into a practice, or whether it makes a difference at all!

Some pros and cons I can think of:

STATE PROS: Cheap! Might be easier to rise to the top of the class (and board scores), some have better programs than private schools, more money left over to buy into practice or not use up your life limit from the government after your 2nd year
CONS: fewer resources, sometimes larger class sizes (or at least poorer student/faculty ratio), sometimes crappy facilities, can be rural, less likely to get into specialty

PRIVATE PROS: great placement, name, facilities, etc. etc.
CONS: $$$$, loss of humility (??)


And if anyone can specify this to Buffalo versus UPenn I'd especially appreciate it!

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[I'mFillingFine]

P.S. I can't speak for anyone else, but maybe everyone can post their questions about "X school or Y school?" here too, because those threads are taking up a lot of space, and they're very person-specific. If everyone asks about the schools they got into, people might not have a chance to ask more general questions.

 

[swanlake]

P.S. I can't speak for anyone else, but maybe everyone can post their questions about "X school or Y school?" here too, because those threads are taking up a lot of space, and they're very person-specific. If everyone asks about the schools they got into, people might not have a chance to ask more general questions.

This is what I have experienced....
I worked at two dental offices and both dentists graduated from well-known private institutions (one of which is Ivy league). However, when patients come, they never ask you which school you went to. Also, dentists never mention where they went either. As long as you provide them a good care and be nice to your patients, you won't have any problem affording your expenses.

 

[ldybug579]

I feel that for the cost aspect and the fact that the people i met at UPenn were not nearly as nice as the people i met at Buffalo, I'm choosing Buffalo, The faculty at Penn seemed to have a better then everyone attitude i also disliked.

 

[phremius]

who, besides douchebag predents and maybe your families, care about the name of the school?

ask your dentist, when was the last time somebody asked him/her where they went to school.

 

[Sprgrover]

This is what I have experienced....
I worked at two dental offices and both dentists graduated from well-known private institutions (one of which is Ivy league). However, when patients come, they never ask you which school you went to. Also, dentists never mention where they went either. As long as you provide them a good care and be nice to your patients, you won't have any problem affording your expenses.

Excellent advice!

 

[oldboy]

As far as Buffalo goes, it is a great program that is highly ranked, maybe not on the same level as some schools ivy or non-ivy, but still one of the best programs in the country. Almost all the dentists that I have spoke to have said "go to the cheapest school that you can". As a budding predental student I don't really subscribe to this view point, but ask me again in 10 years when I have all the expenses of a practice and am paying back at least $1000 a month for at least 10 years straight while I am trying to buy the biggest, fastest boat I can.

If you are the kind of student that is gonna make it into a specialty I don't think it makes a huge difference if you go to an ivy as opposed to a school like buffalo, unless we're talking about Harvard. Making it into a specialty is all about super high board scores and great contacts, two things which may be more accessable at a very prestigious school, but nonetheless very attainable at most schools. Also, you should take into account quality of life, i.e. things to do and cost of those activities. You'll spend 4+ of the best years of your life there and you should have fun as well as bust your arse.

I say go visit the places you are considering again and check out the school and especially the area that you would be moving to. Now that you are accepted you may get a different vibe from the school and your decision will become very easy.

 

[beannaithe]

Penn is a very, very good school. But I just didn't get any kind of warm fuzzy feeling there. I felt that the school was more driven towards maintaining a reputation versus keeping the students happy. And everyone we talked to (or attempted to) didn't seem very happy or even friendly.

I'm sure it's different if you actually go there, but I just remember going to some state school and everyone seeming so friendly to each other and just a wonderful enviornment. At Penn, I felt the exact opposite. More competition and less friendliess...but that's JUST me. And I'm sure for every negative thing you hear, you'll hear a positive one.

The decision is up to you.

 

[TimR]

the advice I received from my older brother who did his master's in Naval Architecture at U of Michigan:

You go to school where you will be happiest and in the best position to achieve your goals, regardless of price, location,etc.... There are state schools that are great and there are private institutions that are great.

I know that a lot of dentists will tell you to just go to whatever school is cheapest. But what if you hate San Francisco or hate LA. Those are my options for state schools and I didn't even end up filling out the secondaries. Do I regret it? no. I feel really good about the private school that I will be attending. It's not ivy, it's not on anyone's mythical top 3 schools list, and it's in a city that a lot of people think sucks.

I say go where ever you feel like going..... gosh....

 

[Catfish]

I feel that for the cost aspect and the fact that the people i met at UPenn were not nearly as nice as the people i met at Buffalo, I'm choosing Buffalo, The faculty at Penn seemed to have a better then everyone attitude i also disliked.

Same here, I chose my state school over UPenn. That was the biggest & toughest decision in my life, considering that I also got UPenn's Dean's Scholarship. But for me, cost is a big problem. My parents won't be able to help me at all, and I don't have any savings. Even with the scholarship, UPenn still costs 80K more than UF, and there're tons hidden charges and living expenses don't show on the chart. If I go UPenn, I would be a poor dental student for sure. But if I go UF, I'll live happily and financially free.

For the ones that don't have financial problem, you're lucky If I was a rich kid in a rich family, I might choose UPenn.

Other than the cost, I don't have any complains. UF is a great school too. Even with less opportunities compared to UPenn, I don't think it matters that much. I think if you're smart enough, you can get into good specialty program no matter where you go for dental school. It mainly depends on the student's ability and dedication, not the school's.

Just my opinion.

 

[polarnut]

I think if you're smart enough, you can get into good specialty program no matter where you go for dental school. It mainly depends on the student's ability and dedication, not the school's.

Just my opinion.

I share that thought.

 

[I'mFillingFine]

Thanks, everyone! Your comments are really helpful. I think it's hard for me to tell which school I got "that feeling" for because...maybe I'm insane or didn't apply to the right schools...I didn't really feel powerfully attached to any of them. (Though I also don't fall in love with men at first sight, either! It's probably just how I work).

I am going back to visit a few and PRAYING that I can scoop up someone's unwanted Dean's Scholarship Hey, I'm all about recycling! It's good for the planet and all that!

 

[mitechgrl]

I'm in the same boat... UPENN or University of MI (my state school)... Cost aside, I don't know where I would go... is it worth the $100000 more it will cost to go to UPENN??? I liked Philadelphia a lot... it would be nice to live in a big city for a while... but Ann Arbor is nice too... and safe... any opinions are welcome.

 

[Rezdawg]

Though I also don't fall in love with men at first sight, either!

Except Ron Jeremy.

 

[I'mFillingFine]

Except Ron Jeremy.

Who wouldn't make an exception for R.J.???


Everyone says dentists won't have a problem paying back their loans. I don't deny that, but isn't there something significant in being FINISHED with those payments $100,000 sooner? That money would then go towards a house, car, practice, the 15 kids I'm going to have, the antique carousel in my backyard, kidnapping Johnny Depp....

...I mean, I'll need it!



....a baby grand piano, a duck pond, a candy factory, a chunk of marble for my memorial statue.......

 

[swanlake]

Who wouldn't make an exception for R.J.???


Everyone says dentists won't have a problem paying back their loans. I don't deny that, but isn't there something significant in being FINISHED with those payments $100,000 sooner? That money would then go towards a house, car, practice, the 15 kids I'm going to have, the antique carousel in my backyard, kidnapping Johnny Depp....

...I mean, I'll need it!



....a baby grand piano, a duck pond, a candy factory, a chunk of marble for my memorial statue.......

YOUR STATE SCHOOL IS THE ANSWER~~!!!!

 

[I'mFillingFine]

YOUR STATE SCHOOL IS THE ANSWER~~!!!!

I don't know; lots of people say to go where you're happy, and I think that'd be Penn for me

Lots say that in the long run, you'll get an education and money is money....

Something not mentioned a lot: could going to an expensive school ever "pay off" by getting a better offer for a practice or partnership or specialty?

 

[JohnUNLV]

Lots say that in the long run, you'll get an education and money is money....

Something not mentioned a lot: could going to an expensive school ever "pay off" by getting a better offer for a practice or partnership or specialty?

I agree with your first point, for the most part an education in DS is going to be the nearly the same all over.

About a more expensive school 'paying off' thats interesting. Probably only if the person you're dealing with went to the same school or is affiliated with it.

I say do what you think will make you happy but also think about what you'll be sacrificing in the future.

 

[greenday]

I don't know; lots of people say to go where you're happy, and I think that'd be Penn for me

Lots say that in the long run, you'll get an education and money is money....

Something not mentioned a lot: could going to an expensive school ever "pay off" by getting a better offer for a practice or partnership or specialty?

It could/might get you more personal satisfaction and more creditability when you open up practice or do business.
Certain percentage of people are for big names.

 

[r0entgen]

Something not mentioned a lot: could going to an expensive school ever "pay off" by getting a better offer for a practice or partnership or specialty?

i was wondering the same. many people say specialties only care about class rank, and board scores. but class ranks are VERY relative and it says nothing. it completely depends on the caliber of students at the dental school. since not all dental schools are equal, i don't understand how they can just compare class ranks across schools as if they were comparing the same things...

any thoughts? i think i might have to call specialty admissions and see what the deal is...cuz i don't want to go to a super competitive school (i.e., upenn) just because i like it more, at the expense of being unable to specialise because my rank may not have been as high as compared to going to a public school.

 

[Rezdawg]

i was wondering the same. many people say specialties only care about class rank, and board scores. but class ranks are VERY relative and it says nothing. it completely depends on the caliber of students at the dental school. since not all dental schools are equal, i don't understand how they can just compare class ranks across schools as if they were comparing the same things...

any thoughts?

Thats where the NBDE 1 comes into play. Comparing apples to apples.

 

[HermeytheElf]

YOUR STATE SCHOOL IS THE ANSWER~~!!!!

What if by chance your state school is run by incompetent *****s who are only teaching because they lacked the people skills to make it in private practice and now take out their frustrations on dental students?

 

[Rezdawg]

I don't know; lots of people say to go where you're happy, and I think that'd be Penn for me

Lots say that in the long run, you'll get an education and money is money....

Something not mentioned a lot: could going to an expensive school ever "pay off" by getting a better offer for a practice or partnership or specialty?

Although I do think its critical that you go somewhere where you'd be happy, your situation is a little different. Saving $100,000 is a huge difference. It may be worth it to sacrifice some happiness for a 6 figure sum. I'd have to go with the state school on this one.

 

[r0entgen]

Thats where the NBDE 1 comes into play. Comparing apples to apples.

so what if two people's nbde1 scores were the same, but one's class rank at upenn was lower than another at a state school?...

these cases arise quite often i would imagine. the fact that they are even comparing (relative) CLASS RANKS across different schools already shows they are comparing apples and oranges. yes, comparing boards scores are apples to apples, but it's not the ONLY thing they compare. i think in order to be accurate and fair, everything that they do compare must be a legit comparison.

i mean, i know for med schools, the reputation of the med school one graduates from makes a significant difference in their choices of residencies. i don't know why dental schools would be so stupid and not notice that there is a different between schools.

 

[Rezdawg]

so what if two people's nbde1 scores were the same, but one's class rank at upenn was lower than another at a state school?...

these cases arise quite often i would imagine. the fact that they are even comparing (relative) CLASS RANKS across different schools already shows they are comparing apples and oranges. yes, comparing boards scores are apples to apples, but it's not the ONLY thing they compare. i think in order to be accurate and fair, everything that they do compare must be a legit comparison.

i mean, i know for med schools, the reputation of the med school one graduates from makes a significant difference in their choices of residencies. i don't know why dental schools would be so stupid and not notice that there is a different between schools.

I still think they would take the kid with higher class rank.

Kinda like when I got my ass handed to me at Wash U, instead of going to University of Houston and doing much better in the sciences. Dental schools didnt seem to care.

The thing is, everyone in dental school, for the most part, is very intelligent. To finish in the top 10% of any class, in any school, is quite an accomplishment. I had initially thought that coming to BU would make it "easier" to rank high in the class as opposed to another school with higher "numbers". However, that theory went right out the window after a day. All of a sudden, you realize that the majority of the class is right up there with you, and many are way above and beyond you. Also, the difference between guy #1 and guy #28 is very minimal. In fact, the separation is probably due to luck...one guy guessed a few right here and the other guy missed a few there.

Therefore, I wouldnt view someone from a prestigious school ranked #17 as smarter than someone from a less prestigious school ranked #10, if their NBDE 1 scores were equal.

I have no clue what the hell I just said. Im tired.

 

[Unemployed]

YOUR STATE SCHOOL IS THE ANSWER~~!!!!

what if your state school is ucsf/ucla and cost 200-215K (depending on lifestyle) for 4 years, while pacific is 256-272K in 3 years? I think California might be the exception since we've been having some budget problems due to the Terminator. However, if you school is one of those Texas, Georgia, New Jersey, and such...then the choice is easy. Makes more sense in my opinion...if that really means anything.

 

[swanlake]

what if your state school is ucsf/ucla and cost 200-215K (depending on lifestyle) for 4 years, while pacific is 256-272K in 3 years? I think California might be the exception since we've been having some budget problems due to the Terminator. However, if you school is one of those Texas, Georgia, New Jersey, and such...then the choice is easy. Makes more sense in my opinion...if that really means anything.

Hum...I didn't know those UC schools cost that much for in-staters. What a rip-off!!!! We might have to teach some accounting and economics to Terminator

 

[msdentist06]

.

 

[msdentist06]

Hum...I didn't know those UC schools cost that much for in-staters. What a rip-off!!!! We might have to teach some accounting and economics to Terminator

tuition is around 25K

 

[Kniles5]

who, besides douchebag predents and maybe your families, care about the name of the school?

ask your dentist, when was the last time somebody asked him/her where they went to school.

agreed

 

[Kniles5]

I'm in the same boat... UPENN or University of MI (my state school)... Cost aside, I don't know where I would go... is it worth the $100000 more it will cost to go to UPENN??? I liked Philadelphia a lot... it would be nice to live in a big city for a while... but Ann Arbor is nice too... and safe... any opinions are welcome.

Living in a big city can be fun. As a dental student, how much will you enjoy it? You probably won't go out and party as much as you think. Unless you have a practice that you are inheriting, you really have to worry about the GIGANTIC expense of buying one. Or you can work for someone else your whole career. I would prefer to be strapped down with as little debt as possible. No patient will care where you went; just if you are good. My opinion....

 

[ItsGavinC]

benefit of the name when you're trying to buy into a practice

There is NO benefit of name when trying to buy into a practice. There is only perhaps benefit of geography or alumni.

 

[oldboy]

This is what you do:
1. Get a bunch of chicken bones, preferably dried out.
2. Take a bunch of acid and watch that voodoo movie with Kate Hudson.
3. Throw the bones on the floor and you'll know what to do. (If you have a dog make sure they're not around cause they could really mess it up)

 

[SkiMan]

There is NO benefit of name when trying to buy into a practice. There is only perhaps benefit of geography or alumni.

So why did you chose ASDOH which has no alumni?

No seriously, what were you reasons for going there? Would you do it again if given other options? Also, is there any chance that they won't recieve accreditation at the end of this year?

 

[bkwash]

hey skiman u gotta change your avatar...i have more posts

Back to the OP. One thing that people aren't taking into consideration is if you want to do anything outside of owning a practice (I.e teach, direct a program etc.) An ivyish name would help with those things. In my opinion only Uconn and Harvard are worth the high tuition because of the match rate, P/F classes and small class size. When evaluating other private school s vs. state schools, I would take a hard look at price.

 

[msdentist06]

...only Uconn and Harvard are worth the high tuition because of the match rate, P/F classes and small class size....

Uconn's class size is actually 120; Harvard's class size is 200. Medical and dental students take the same classes at Harvard, Uconn and columbia. UW, UCLA and UCSF have the smallest class sizes. UCLA seems to have the second highest match rate (~50 students specialize). Harvard has the highest match rate (~30 students specialize). I've found the following very interesting: All UCLA professors are Harvard and UCLA graduates. very strange.

 

[Cyclysm]

i was wondering the same. many people say specialties only care about class rank, and board scores. but class ranks are VERY relative and it says nothing. it completely depends on the caliber of students at the dental school. since not all dental schools are equal, i don't understand how they can just compare class ranks across schools as if they were comparing the same things...

any thoughts? i think i might have to call specialty admissions and see what the deal is...cuz i don't want to go to a super competitive school (i.e., upenn) just because i like it more, at the expense of being unable to specialise because my rank may not have been as high as compared to going to a public school.

i do not know if this has been answered yet, but specialty programs do weigh a schools reputation. whether they admit it or not. i know the head of OMFS at vanderbilt and when asked he said that a place like the university of michigan has a much better reputation than a place like university of detroit-mercy. that is not saying that you wont become a great dentist at UDM, you may come out a BETTER clinical dentist because of the broad range of procedures you will see in detroit. if you want to specialize and have the choice of going to a school with a name, i would say go there. if you just want to become a general, the name is not as important. like was stated before, as long as you are a good dentists, patients wont care where you went.

and yes rank, and board scores are very important.

 

[bkwash]

Uconn's class size is actually 120; Harvard's class size is 200.

I was actually reffering to the size of the DENTAL class. At Harvard the incoming dental class is between 34-37 students.

 

[I'mFillingFine]

I do have a feeling that name may play somewhat into specialty placement, simply because the deciding schools know what sort of students they can expect (this doesn't mean a well known name equals good students, but just that they'll consider the school the student is coming from).

However, is it REALLY true that a lower rank from a better school means the same as a higher rank from a public or lesser-known one? I highly doubt it! Even though boards are consistent, rank is rank, and I imagine they'd expect you to do well amongst any set of peers. Since dental school is so competitive, can you really say that one school had SUCH better or more motivated students that a 15th place is as good as a 1st place elsewhere?

 

[Audio]

I do have a feeling that name may play somewhat into specialty placement, simply because the deciding schools know what sort of students they can expect (this doesn't mean a well known name equals good students, but just that they'll consider the school the student is coming from).

However, is it REALLY true that a lower rank from a better school means the same as a higher rank from a public or lesser-known one? I highly doubt it! Even though boards are consistent, rank is rank, and I imagine they'd expect you to do well amongst any set of peers. Since dental school is so competitive, can you really say that one school had SUCH better or more motivated students that a 15th place is as good as a 1st place elsewhere?

Some of these big name schools don't rank their students...like Harvard!

 

[ItsGavinC]

So why did you chose ASDOH which has no alumni?

It's in the fastest-growing area of the US, and the need for dental care is great. The weather is great, the school and facilites are brand new, the envrionment is laid-back, the patient pool is good, I'm getting enormous amounts of clinical experience, yada yada yada.

But yes, if I had to do it all over again I wouldn't change a thing. I'm tremendously happy with my clinical experience. No chance that we won't receive accreditation. That isn't how the process works. CODA doesn't say "you aren't accredited" if the school has been following the process the entire time.

And, we're accredited right now for my class, so I don't have any qualms about it.

 

[ramona_k]

I do have a feeling that name may play somewhat into specialty placement, simply because the deciding schools know what sort of students they can expect (this doesn't mean a well known name equals good students, but just that they'll consider the school the student is coming from).

However, is it REALLY true that a lower rank from a better school means the same as a higher rank from a public or lesser-known one? I highly doubt it!

I wonder about that too. I think the best thing is to contact the head of the specific specialty program that you're interested in to see their opinion. There's another piece to the puzzle too. if you attend the particular state school that has your specific specialty program then you can build a good network with the department and your chances of getting into that specialty can be better.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

If name gives an advantage, then explain why there are MANY students who goto "name" schools and DO NOT get into specialities? I feel so bad for them, cause they paid a ton of money 4 years ago thinking they would have an edge, and now they have nothing but a huge debt and regrets.

You do realize that students from EVERY dental school goes into each speciality every year. Unless there was a huge personal reason for it, why would anyone pay so much more money for a school that they BELIEVE gives them an advantage, when they truly know that it doesnt.

 

[BigRedDentist]

I feel that for the cost aspect and the fact that the people i met at UPenn were not nearly as nice as the people i met at Buffalo, I'm choosing Buffalo, The faculty at Penn seemed to have a better then everyone attitude i also disliked.

I had the opposite experience. At Penn they were super nice to me and my interviewer took me into the clinic to show me around and look at a patient afterwards and explain what I should be looking for in a dental school. Buffalo showed me a movie, gave me handcramps, grilled me on definitions, and then served me chicken wings. And then it snowed 3 inches.

 

[gryffindor]

Buffalo showed me a movie, gave me handcramps, grilled me on definitions, and then served me chicken wings. And then it snowed 3 inches.

Haha, this sounds exactly like the 4 years I spent in dental school there.