Could this count as a letter of recommendation?

[sm2005]

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Between my first and second year of medical school I went away for the summer to do clinical research in another school in the department of anesthesia and I didn't know if a letter of recommendation from the dr. in charged of me there could count as one letter of recomm. when I apply to gen. surgery residency. I don't know if the letters are better coming from the school one is from? I also don't know is all of them have to be from surgeons. I just don't know and I would appreciate any advice, thanks.

 

[pdiddy]

Originally posted by sm2005
Between my first and second year of medical school I went away for the summer to do clinical research in another school in the department of anesthesia and I didn't know if a letter of recommendation from the dr. in charged of me there could count as one letter of recomm. when I apply to gen. surgery residency. I don't know if the letters are better coming from the school one is from? I also don't know is all of them have to be from surgeons. I just don't know and I would appreciate any advice, thanks.

....you can use it if you want to, but i would not unless i was applying into anesth.... if you are thinking surgery stick with 1.) surgeons (the best being a famous prof who knows you well on one end, and on the other end an assistant prof who does not know you at all, and there are many levels in between) ...2.) research advisor if you have one... 3.) maybe a internal med letter if they know you really well and you don't have enough surgery letters.

 

[Blade28]

Hmmm...I'd hesitate in using a letter from someone I worked with after FIRST year. Better to use letters from third/four year attendings, no?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

Between my first and second year of medical school I went away for the summer to do clinical research in another school in the department of anesthesia and I didn't know if a letter of recommendation from the dr. in charged of me there could count as one letter of recomm. when I apply to gen. surgery residency. I don't know if the letters are better coming from the school one is from? I also don't know is all of them have to be from surgeons. I just don't know and I would appreciate any advice, thanks.

Letters from other programs are fine if: 1) the attending knows you well, and 2) his/her letter will be stronger than letters from your home program. Additionally, I think letters are stronger if they can evaluate your clinical skills as a 3rd or 4th year.

You'll have to judge if it's worth filling the slot with this physician's letter.

 

[aboo-ali-sina]

You really want letters that can tell programs you will be a good surgical intern. The way to get such a letter is to show surgeons that you will be a good intern (by working hard and knowing you stuff) and then having them write you a letter that says that.

It does not matter if your letter is from your institution or not. You don't want all of your letters to be from other institutions because then people start to wonder why you don't have one from your institution.

If you are applying to surgery, it is important that your letter writers be surgeons. Surgeons care about the opinions of other surgeons.

Finally, for someone to write your a strong letter, they shoujld know you for a while. Consider the following:

1. I have know Jack since he was a first year medical student. He has worked with me both in the research lab and in the oerating room. I am certain that his diligence, inteligence, and stogn work ethic will make him an ideal canditate for any surgical residency program.

vs.

2. Jack spent one week with me during his surgical rotation. He seems like a very responsible med. student. I recommend him for a position in your program

What is the stonger of the two?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

You really want letters that can tell programs you will be a good surgical intern. The way to get such a letter is to show surgeons that you will be a good intern (by working hard and knowing you stuff) and then having them write you a letter that says that.

It does not matter if your letter is from your institution or not. You don't want all of your letters to be from other institutions because then people start to wonder why you don't have one from your institution.

If you are applying to surgery, it is important that your letter writers be surgeons. Surgeons care about the opinions of other surgeons.

Finally, for someone to write your a strong letter, they shoujld know you for a while. Consider the following:

1. I have know Jack since he was a first year medical student. He has worked with me both in the research lab and in the oerating room. I am certain that his diligence, inteligence, and stogn work ethic will make him an ideal canditate for any surgical residency program.

vs.

2. Jack spent one week with me during his surgical rotation. He seems like a very responsible med. student. I recommend him for a position in your program

What is the stonger of the two?

I agree with aboo-ali-sina. For instance, in ophthalmology, it's best to obtain letters from ophthalmologists who can evaluate your abilities and compare your strengths with other medical students and residents interested in ophthalmology.

 

[jakstat33]

i'd like to add to this thread and ask another question... i'm a 2nd year interested in ortho and had the opportunity to do research last summer with one of the top ortho docs in the country at another institution (not my school)... i made a good impression, it was a positive experience, and he offered to write a letter. after speaking with my dean i decided not to get one at that time... my dean said that generally students obtain letters from docs in their 3rd/4th year clerkships. i also thought that getting a letter this early in the game wouldn't mean much.... BUT, are the rules different when it comes to ortho? no doubt, letters from well known ortho surgeons are critical-- and this was a big name.

this isn't a "did i make the right decision" question, but rather... should i not listen to my dean and contact the surgeon & ask for a letter when applying next year? keep in mind it will be 1+ years after the fact, and although he will surely remember me, he may not remember me as well. so, although the letter won't be as stunning as others that i could get 3/4 year, it will be good & from a top ortho surgeon... WHAT DO I DO?

 

[Andrew_Doan]

i'd like to add to this thread and ask another question... i'm a 2nd year interested in ortho and had the opportunity to do research last summer with one of the top ortho docs in the country at another institution (not my school)... i made a good impression, it was a positive experience, and he offered to write a letter. after speaking with my dean i decided not to get one at that time... my dean said that generally students obtain letters from docs in their 3rd/4th year clerkships. i also thought that getting a letter this early in the game wouldn't mean much.... BUT, are the rules different when it comes to ortho? no doubt, letters from well known ortho surgeons are critical-- and this was a big name.

this isn't a "did i make the right decision" question, but rather... should i not listen to my dean and contact the surgeon & ask for a letter when applying next year? keep in mind it will be 1+ years after the fact, and although he will surely remember me, he may not remember me as well. so, although the letter won't be as stunning as others that i could get 3/4 year, it will be good & from a top ortho surgeon... WHAT DO I DO?

You could always send an updated CV and ask the surgeon to write you a letter then. He/she can write a strong letter outlining your previous research experience and current achievements.

 

[Kalel]

Iserson's book "Getting into residency" advises against obtaining first or second year research letters because they usually cannot comment on your clinical skills, and they oftentimes serve no function other then to reiterate that you performed research with them, which you will be including on your CV anyways. The only exception I think that he makes is if you are positive that the attending will write you a glowing letter of reccomendation because he or she got to know you so well. My advise on obtaining letters so early in med school is that it's alright to ask whichever attending you are working with if it'd be alright if they would write you a letter now while they still remember your name but keep it on file on their computer so that you can come back and for it a year or two later when your CV is more complete plus your office of student affairs will be able to file your letter. Most attendings will be willing to do so. Then, if during fourth year, you find that you do need their letter, you can go back to them with a note reminding them of your research, your updated CV, with your clinical grades and they can complete their letter then. Also, you may get a chance to work with them in a clinical setting during third year so they can add those experiences to your letter too. If you find that you don't need his or her letter during fourth year, you can always just not ask for it then or pick it up and not turn it in.

 

[jakstat33]

Finally, for someone to write your a strong letter, they shoujld know you for a while. Consider the following:

1. I have know Jack since he was a first year medical student. He has worked with me both in the research lab and in the oerating room. I am certain that his diligence, inteligence, and stogn work ethic will make him an ideal canditate for any surgical residency program.

vs.

2. Jack spent one week with me during his surgical rotation. He seems like a very responsible med. student. I recommend him for a position in your program

What is the stonger of the two?

which is the stronger letter?

1. I have know Jack since he was a first year medical student. He has worked with me both in the research lab and in the oerating room. I am certain that his diligence, inteligence, and stogn work ethic will make him an ideal canditate for any surgical residency program.

Signed, Dr. Joe Shmoe

vs.

2. Jack spent one week with me during his surgical rotation. He seems like a very responsible med. student. I recommend him for a position in your program

Signed, Dr. Michael DeBakey

 

[aboo-ali-sina]

which is the stronger letter?

1. I have know Jack since he was a first year medical student. He has worked with me both in the research lab and in the oerating room. I am certain that his diligence, inteligence, and stogn work ethic will make him an ideal canditate for any surgical residency program.

Signed, Dr. Joe Shmoe

vs.

2. Jack spent one week with me during his surgical rotation. He seems like a very responsible med. student. I recommend him for a position in your program

Signed, Dr. Michael DeBakey

I want to propose that even though the letter is signed Dr. Micheal DeBakey, it is still not a strong letter.

PD's know that if Dr. BeBakey (or insert your own famous person) really knew who you were and really was recommending you, he would not write the letter that. They know that this letter is just a formality and I don't think that they value it as much as someone who knows you.

That being said, you can get a strong letter (like number 1) from a famous person, you just need to spend time with them. One week in third year surgery rotation is not enough. You should be their AI (or subI depending on your school) and spend a full month with them intensively.

While the name attached to the letter might make someone more likely to read it, if they read it and gain no useful information about you from it, the letter is just not as strong.

So this is a long winded way of saying #1 is better even if #2 is from Dr. DeBakey.

 

[aboo-ali-sina]

now, if you get Dr. DeBakey to call and say "Jack spent one week with me during his surgical rotation. He seems like a very responsible med. student. I recommend him for a position in your program" then that is a horse of a different color because he made the effort to call.

 

[Blade28]

Iserson's book "Getting into residency" advises against obtaining first or second year research letters because they usually cannot comment on your clinical skills, and they oftentimes serve no function other then to reiterate that you performed research with them, which you will be including on your CV anyways.

A must-read!

It should be possible to obtain 3+ excellent letters during 3rd and 4th year.

 

[aboo-ali-sina]

be careful with iserson's. In my experience, it is not the Holy Bible that everyone portrays it to be. While it provides some good information, it is not the end all be all on any subject. Things in residency application are not as clear cut as the book portrays and do don't pay any attention to its ranking of the competitiveness of the individual specialities-this changes year to year and the book is just not up to date on all of that information.

It is a good book that should be read, but take its advice with a grain of salt. Talk with the interns at your school. They will be able to provide you with the most current information for your speciallity (they just went through the whole process)

 

[Andrew_Doan]

2. Jack spent one week with me during his surgical rotation. He seems like a very responsible med. student. I recommend him for a position in your program

Signed, Dr. Michael DeBakey

I think there is value to research letters. BTW, I'm not biased. 😉

But I know first-hand that research letters can help. They got me into medical school and they helped with the residency match. Here is why:

1) The mentor can comment about your work ethic, which is more than what can be gleaned from just seeing the research experience on a CV.

2) The mentor can compare you to other medical students s/he has worked with, e.g. stating that you're in the top 1% of all medical students who s/he has worked with in their career. This comment from Dr. DeBakey would be a huge deal.

3) The mentor can comment on your ability to work in a team.

4) The mentor can comment on your knowledge of the medical field related to the research.

Therefore, research letters can be quite effective if it comes from the right people and the letters cover certain issues. If you think a research letter will help your application, then I suggest sending the writer an updated CV during your 3rd or 4th years. One of my previous attendings suggested that he'd write a letter for my file, and then he'll update it when I was ready to apply. This made sense because it may be hard to remember a medical student 1-2 years later. In my case, 5-6 years because of my PhD.

I can guarantee (or your SDN karma will be refunded - 😉 ) that few surgical professors will disregard a recommendation letter from Dr. DeBakey who states that you did research with him and that you were an outstanding student who is in the top 5% of all medical students he has worked with. 👍

 

[aboo-ali-sina]

I can guarantee (or your SDN karma will be refunded - 😉 ) that few surgical professors will disregard a recommendation letter from Dr. DeBakey who states that you did research with him and that you were an outstanding student who is in the top 5% of all medical students he has worked with. 👍

which is a compleltely different statement from Dr. DeBakey than:

I worked with him for one week. I recommend him.

 

[Andrew_Doan]

which is a compleltely different statement from Dr. DeBakey than:

I worked with him for one week. I recommend him.

I agree completely. My point was that don't disregard research letters because they are simply from a research experience.

 

[Blade28]

I think there is value to research letters. BTW, I'm not biased. 😉

But I know first-hand that research letters can help. They got me into medical school and they helped with the residency match.

...

I can guarantee (or your SDN karma will be refunded - 😉 ) that few surgical professors will disregard a recommendation letter from Dr. DeBakey who states that you did research with him and that you were an outstanding student who is in the top 5% of all medical students he has worked with. 👍

I agree. Excellent post!

I also agree with the above poster who mentioned that not everything in Iserson should be followed to the letter. Just use it as a general guideline (like most other things in life!), and go from there. For example, the surgery chair here looked over my fourth year schedule and didn't like the fact that I started off with a G-Surg sub-I. He thought I wouldn't get anything out of it, having recently done my surgery rotation at a tougher hospital with a good letter. The subsequent away rotations were OK, though.