Couples Match

[friedcfood]

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Any disadvantages with doing a couples match?

My gf is going into PEDS and I'm going into IM. Our applications should be comparable and competitive.

Any advice from those who went through the process.

I have read through NRMP and searched through the threads...just wanted some fresh input...thanks in advance. 🙂

 

[DeLaughterDO]

Be sure to have about twice the usual "safe" number on your ROL when you finalize - couples match invariably will drive your final match number waaaay down.

Did for myself and my wife, has for numerous other couples to whom I've spoken, has for several people posting on these forums.

While it is nice to have a "guaranteed match" at the same place, just be aware that the match computer does not smile kindly upon couples-matchers, sometimes.

caveat emptor!

jd

 

[vegetables]

If you're both good candidates, I was told that couples matching sometimes helps you statistically, but I can't recall this past year's stats. The good thing is that you're both going into pretty non-competitive fields, i.e. not derm and radiology.

-Get your apps in EARLY b/c you'll want to secure more interview offers/dates than the normal applicant and will want to start scheduling asap to ensure you have enough time in the season to go places.
-If one gets an interview at a place, have the other person call their program at that school and explain you are couples matching and would like to travel together and so would they offer you an interview spot now? We did this multiple times and were never told no and saved lots of $$ this way.
-ADVERTISE that you are a couple! We did this to make sure PD's knew to contact the other person's PD if they wanted us.
-Honestly talk about the places you liked and didn't like. The rank list must be a compromise, otherwise it will be a breeding ground for regret.
-You may get asked how long you've been together and do you see each other getting married. I know some people who were "only" bf/gf got asked this a few times while it seems no one had a problem if you were couples matching while engaged. I guess programs didn't want to run the chance that if you broke up one would try to leave the program. I remember one girl saying she considered wearing a fake ring to avoid this b/c she got asked it so many times as well as being told maybe she shouldn't be couples matching unless things were more permanent and she was so frustrated!! I think it's crazy to have to be asked this, but, just be prepared with a good answer. Or fake jewelry, haha.

We did all these things as well as contacting our #1 and telling them they were our #1 when the time came and ended up where we wanted to be (ob and peds). The couples match doesn't have to be stressful and if nothing else it's a guaranteed conversation starter for an interview!

 

[luckystar]

My husband (fiance at time of match) and I went through the couples match this year, and I think the post from vegetables sums it up quite nicely. We are radiology and FP, so we spent a ton of money on our applications since I felt that I had to apply broadly, and he had to apply to many more FP programs than he ever should have. I guess no matter what fields you're going into, you'll be more likely to apply to more places as a couple than if you were doing it individually. It helps a lot to have a supportive partner, and for you to speak honestly about where you want to be or not. It's best to discuss each program right after the interview when it's still fresh in your mind.

We tried to schedule our interviews together, but that didn't work out very well because it seemed like radiology interviewed on a later schedule than FP. It was definitely to my disappointment, because he was always the one who had hotel rooms and dinners paid for!

In the end, we matched at our #1 programs, luckily. I agree with DeLaughterDO, though, because you always wonder about computer glitches and things like that...placing you two at distant programs or far down your list. The thing that freaked me out the most was when we made our ROLs, there is no side-by-side listing of all the pairs of programs you rank. I mean, it will say who you are coupled with, but you still make separate ROLs and hope that they pair up correctly during the matching process. I had prelim/TY programs to rank as well, so I just about checked and rechecked our lists about 50 times. We decided not to make any unmatched ranks, so that if one of us didn't match, we would have both had to scramble. It was a scary decision, but in some weird way, we thought it would be better to scramble together if we had to.

Good luck with everything!

 

[friedcfood]

thanks for the replies...seems too me that the couple's match isn't too bad. i only hear rumors of couple's match horror stories, but never from anyone directly who was not satisfied with their match result.

We're planning to be in the socal area...and matching at programs that are close enough so that we can eventually move in together. As mentioned above...worried about computer program problems, or human error not matching the ROL appropriately...things of that sort. Or even having to deal with the PD, whether it's looked down upon or encouraged.

The fake wedding ring that vegetables recommended sounds like a good idea. However, does make me a bit nervous since i'm not a very good liar. 😳

Anybody coupled match in the socal area? what was your experience here?

 

[gutonc]

One think to think about, particularly if you want to end up in an area w/ a lot of available spots (NYC, Boston, Chicago, Philly, Bay Area, SoCal) you might consider not actually doing the couples match, particularly if you don't love the same places. I had a number of married/engaged/coupled classmates in NYC who wanted to stay in the area who chose not to actually couples match but only applied in local programs. This way neither person has to worry about the other's "strength" as an applicant causing one to match lower on their list than they might otherwise have. It sounds like this isn't really an issue for you but it's something to think about. You can change your registration to/from couples match status up to the end so you don't have to stress about it right now.

 

[deleted109597]

thanks for the replies...seems too me that the couple's match isn't too bad. i only hear rumors of couple's match horror stories, but never from anyone directly who was not satisfied with their match result.

It didn't work for me, and some places, when called and asked what happened, stated that they couldn't communicate with the other departments about ranking. Sad thing is, each of us would have matched separately.

We're planning to be in the socal area...and matching at programs that are close enough so that we can eventually move in together. As mentioned above...worried about computer program problems, or human error not matching the ROL appropriately...things of that sort. Or even having to deal with the PD, whether it's looked down upon or encouraged.

PDs don't hate it, but many also don't care. I don't think the computer makes mistakes, they check it quite a few times. That being said, you don't have 1 master list, you have two separate ones, so you can certainly **** those up (we didn't, but it required having our computers side by side to compare lists).
The fake wedding ring that vegetables recommended sounds like a good idea. However, does make me a bit nervous since i'm not a very good liar. 😳

 

[Hard24Get]

One think to think about, particularly if you want to end up in an area w/ a lot of available spots (NYC, Boston, Chicago, Philly, Bay Area, SoCal) you might consider not actually doing the couples match, particularly if you don't love the same places. I had a number of married/engaged/coupled classmates in NYC who wanted to stay in the area who chose not to actually couples match but only applied in local programs. This way neither person has to worry about the other's "strength" as an applicant causing one to match lower on their list than they might otherwise have. It sounds like this isn't really an issue for you but it's something to think about. You can change your registration to/from couples match status up to the end so you don't have to stress about it right now.

This seems like good advice if you are boyfriend and girlfriend and think you might want to stay together/are not ready to let each other go. I contend that if you love someone enough to risk a potentially subpar residency to be with them for 4+ years, you should probably marry them - thus, the ring would be real.

If you don't love them enough to marry them you are better off just stacking the deck as above. I know a couple that ended up at the same place this way and are graduating from residency still unsure if they want to be together, will likely breakup because they guy doesn't want to marry her. Imagine if they had sacrificed? Just food for thought.

 

[Pestanas]

I'm planning on doing the couples match too this year --anesth and FM....so this thread has been very helpful, anyone else have any other advice???

i had actually never heard that PD's couldn't discuss rank lists amongst departments?? is that an individual programs policy or is that common??

What other couple's related questions should i be prepared to answer other then "where's your ring?" ....(which i should make my bf answer!!! hehe)

Thanks in advance!

 

[surgeon2b forev]

One think to think about, particularly if you want to end up in an area w/ a lot of available spots (NYC, Boston, Chicago, Philly, Bay Area, SoCal) you might consider not actually doing the couples match, particularly if you don't love the same places. I had a number of married/engaged/coupled classmates in NYC who wanted to stay in the area who chose not to actually couples match but only applied in local programs. This way neither person has to worry about the other's "strength" as an applicant causing one to match lower on their list than they might otherwise have. It sounds like this isn't really an issue for you but it's something to think about. You can change your registration to/from couples match status up to the end so you don't have to stress about it right now.

Thanks for the post. But this doesn't make sense either. If you are couples matching to one geographic regeon... say new york with 5 programs... well, then, your chances of matching ARE THE EXACT SAME as if you both individually applied all 5 programs at one place AS LONG AS YOU PUT IN EVERY permutation possible.

FOr the sake of clarify, lets pretend there are only 3 programs in NYC:

If you each apply to program A B and C, and male ranks them 1 2 and 3, respectfully, and girl ranks them 3 2 and 1 respecfully.... now lets assume they both match wherever

Now, if you couples match and do the rankings like this

Girl Boy
C A
B A
A A
C B
B B
A B
C C
B C
A C


your statitistical chance of where you go based on your rank is the same.

 

[drbon]

Thanks for the post. But this doesn't make sense either. If you are couples matching to one geographic regeon... say new york with 5 programs... well, then, your chances of matching ARE THE EXACT SAME as if you both individually applied all 5 programs at one place AS LONG AS YOU PUT IN EVERY permutation possible.

FOr the sake of clarify, lets pretend there are only 3 programs in NYC:

If you each apply to program A B and C, and male ranks them 1 2 and 3, respectfully, and girl ranks them 3 2 and 1 respecfully.... now lets assume they both match wherever

Now, if you couples match and do the rankings like this

Girl Boy
C A
B A
A A
C B
B B
A B
C C
B C
A C


your statitistical chance of where you go based on your rank is the same.

That is def true...i am a little confused as to why people are saying they would have matched if they had applied separately....my husband and I are doing couples match this year for EM and Peds and i'm so nervous about it does anyone have any advice on 'suggesting' to a PD that a call to the PD of the other dept. would be nice?

 

[deleted109597]

That is def true...i am a little confused as to why people are saying they would have matched if they had applied separately....my husband and I are doing couples match this year for EM and Peds and i'm so nervous about it does anyone have any advice on 'suggesting' to a PD that a call to the PD of the other dept. would be nice?

Don't know why you're confused, but ok. The story is that if there is only one program for each specialty in the city you applied to (true for every place I interviewed), and the programs don't rank you in the same tiers, one person can be passed on the list because the other person didn't match in that city.
IE, my list was
AA
BB
CC
DD
EE
FF
GG
HH
II
and I didn't go through the random permutations of us ending up in different states because it was not conducive to happy marriage talk. Therefore, if C ranked me to match, but didn't her, then I would have matched without the couple's match, and so would she.
As for the other, I mentioned to all of them that they should speak with the other PD, and it didn't do anything for me. I don't think it makes them change their rank in any way from what I can tell.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This is a VERY common question every year. I'm sure there's a thread from last year, but I'm too lazy to search for it.

Issue #1. You CANNOT hurt yourself statistically by couples matching, as long as you put in all possible permutations. You might not want to put in all possible permutations, which is why couples matching is much more powerful than simply applying separately.

In the example above:
---
Now, if you couples match and do the rankings like this

Girl Boy
C A
B A
A A
C B
B B
A B
C C
B C
A C
-------
This is missing a VERY important option. It would be possible for one of the two to match to a program, and the other not to match anywhere. As this rank list is written, if both can't find a program, no one gets a program If you would want one person to get a spot, and the other to remain unmatched, you would add:

C UNMATCHED
B UNMATCHED
A UNMATCHED
UNMATCHED A
UNMATCHED B
UNMATCHED C

Now, the couples match and individual matches are completely identical. However, you get to control the order of preference for the match.

It's a better example when there are two cities involved. Let's say one half of the couple (Person 1) is applying to radiology, the other (Person 2) to IM. Let's say they apply to two programs each in NYC (Prog A and B) and San Fransisco (Prog C and D).

Ok, the couple now decides the following:
1. Our first choice is that we both match in the same program.
2. Our first choice is NYC
3. Our second choice is SF.
4. If we can't match in the same program, then we want to be in the same city.
5. If we can't be matched in the same city, then person 1 who is applying to Radiology should get any spot possible, and person 2 (IM) will go unmatched.
6. Barring that, Person 2 gets a spot, and person 1 goes unmatched.

Given these rules, the match list becomes (X = NO MATCH)
A A
B B
C C
D D
A B
B A
C D
D C
A X
B X
C X
D X
X A
X B
X C
X D

Let's say the same couple instead choses the following:
1. First choice is same program in NYC
2. Second choice is differen progs in NYC
3. Third choice is Radiology in NYC, no match in IM (presume scramble in NYC)
4. Fourth is Same prog in SF
5. Fifth is diff progs in SF
6. Sixth is Rads in SF, no match in IM
7. If none of these, then no match for either

In that case, you enter the following:
A A
B B
A B
B A
A X
B X
C C
D D
C D
D C
C X
D X

It is this kind of control of the match that makes couples matching so powerful. It also makes it dangerous -- you can prevent a match (ie the above match lists prevent one partner from matching in NYC and the other in SF). As posters have mentioned, if this involves sacrifice you need to measure the importance of the relationship against any possible sacrifice created.

The statement above from McNinja:

It didn't work for me, and some places, when called and asked what happened, stated that they couldn't communicate with the other departments about ranking. Sad thing is, each of us would have matched separately.

If both halves of the couple list all possible permutations, then this cannot happen. Again, the above examples prevent an NYC/SF match for the couple, but you could easily enter an "A C" match option to allow that if you wish.

Issue #2 Can the match somehow screw this up?

Quick answer -- absolutely no. The match is double and triple checked. The easiest way to check the match is to run it backwards -- no matter what order the match is run in, the answer should be exactly the same.

Issue #3 Can different departments talk to each other?
Absolutely yes, this happens all the time. However, in general most programs will not move people around much. In my own program, if we have a couples match with another program, we discuss it and I will move someone up our list to the top of their "tied section" -- when you're making a list that is 100's long, there are lots of ties.

Issue #4 Why doesn't the NRMP system allow couples to create rank lists in sync with each other?
No idea. Great idea. I plan to ask them that shortly.

Issue #5 What about this "Where's your ring?" question?
First of all, asking this question is illegal. That won't stop people from asking it, and reminding them it's illegal to ask probably won't help your chances either. A non committal answer like "We are going on vacation in May and I think he's planning on asking me then!" is an idea. It's not lying if you're actually on vacation in May, is it?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Well folks, it turns out I left something out of the above post, which makes most of it invalid.

Let's assume that both halves of the couple apply to a meager 10 programs. Let's say they want to maximize their chances of matching, so they rank all possible permutations. In fact, this mathematically gives them an equal chance of matching as if they have matched separately.

But, there's a problem. Let's call it a slight inconvenience. A little bump in the road.

If the couple each have N programs to rank, there are ((N+1)^2)-1 total possible combinations. "N+1" because you need to include the "unmatched" option, and "-1" because both couples unmatched is not worth ranking.

So, for N=10, there are (11 x 11) -1 = 120 combinations of programs.

NRMP allows couples to rank 30 programs for their fee of $40. Each additional program costs $30. So, total fee for the NRMP would be 40 + (120-30) * 30 = $2740. In case that wasn't sticker shock enough, the NRMP makes you pay this for each half of the couple, so total cost is $5480.

Perhaps you feel 10 programs isn't enough? 20 programs will cost you a mere $24,680 to rank all combinations.

So, the conclusion is that couples using the couples match will either 1) have a smaller number of programs on their rank lists; 2) Cost a tremendous amount of money to rank completely; or 3) increase their risk of scrambling (but prevent matching in different cities)

I had thought that couples were allowed to create long rank lists without these ridiculous costs. It appears I am mistaken, or that the NRMP has changed their policy since I last checked. This is a true crime, and is added to my list of issues to be brought to the NRMP's attention at the APDIM meeting in October.

 

[surgeon2b forev]

That means to put in a match list of 10 people costs over $5 grand!! that's absurd. When was this changed? Is there ANYTHING we can do to prevent this so we don't have to pay this when we submit our lists in Feb? AHH! thanks

 

[surgeon2b forev]

I just called NRMP and they informed me that EACH partner in a couples match may submit up to 30 different programs, INCLUDING combinations/permutations for their standard fee.

Therefore, you are simply charged PER program.. .that is... if you rank school A three times and school B two times within your entire couples match list.... you are only charged for TWO schools A & B... NOT all the individual permutations. Does that make sense?

oh god. thank god

so, indeed, if you apply to 10 programs, that's a possible 121 permutations... and you're not charged extra.

see bullet three at the end of this page. he told me this is what the word "combined" meant within the sentence "Each partner of a couple may rank up to 30 different programs on their primary rank order lists, and up to 30 different programs on all supplemental rank order lists combined before incurring an additional fee of $30 per program." (which isn't very clear, but is where the NRMP staff member pointed me)

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/special_part/us_seniors/couples.html

In any regard, he assured me verbally that was the case. Someone else shoudl call and talk to someone else to double confirm. the number is (202) 828-0566 or Toll Free 1-866-617-5838

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Well that's great, because otherwise it's absurd. Thanks for giving them a call. Sadly, that never occurred to me. Dumb! 😎

My apologies to anyone I might have confused / Scared / etc.

 

[drbon]

I just called NRMP and they informed me that EACH partner in a couples match may submit up to 30 different programs, INCLUDING combinations/permutations for their standard fee.

Therefore, you are simply charged PER program.. .that is... if you rank school A three times and school B two times within your entire couples match list.... you are only charged for TWO schools A & B... NOT all the individual permutations. Does that make sense?

oh god. thank god

so, indeed, if you apply to 10 programs, that's a possible 121 permutations... and you're not charged extra.

see bullet three at the end of this page. he told me this is what the word "combined" meant within the sentence "Each partner of a couple may rank up to 30 different programs on their primary rank order lists, and up to 30 different programs on all supplemental rank order lists combined before incurring an additional fee of $30 per program." (which isn't very clear, but is where the NRMP staff member pointed me)

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/special_part/us_seniors/couples.html

In any regard, he assured me verbally that was the case. Someone else shoudl call and talk to someone else to double confirm. the number is (202) 828-0566 or Toll Free 1-866-617-5838

yes this is true...my school had a residency fair and someone from the NRMP came to speak to us, and that is how he explained it also. otherwise, it would not be very fair now would it? 🙄

 

[nervous student]

I have a question.
My fiance and I are couples matching and I just got an interview in anesthesia at U of Kentucky and I was wondering what the "protocol" was of my fiance calling his program or do I mention something to my program before I set the interview date? I am applying in anesthesia and he is applying in path. We are both USIMGs which makes this a little complicated.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I have a question.
My fiance and I are couples matching and I just got an interview in anesthesia at U of Kentucky and I was wondering what the "protocol" was of my fiance calling his program or do I mention something to my program before I set the interview date? I am applying in anesthesia and he is applying in path. We are both USIMGs which makes this a little complicated.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Can't hurt! I would call / email and see what happens. Would be nice to sync your visit if possible.

 

[drbon]

Can't hurt! I would call / email and see what happens. Would be nice to sync your visit if possible.

I got an invite for a Peds program at a certain hospital in another state where my husband has also applied for EM. People have just started getting invites for the EM program. Should my husband call the program to inquire about an interview since we're couples matching? If so, what should he say? Something like "My wife is interviewing for Peds on December ___, I was wondering if you were interested in my app and if so, could I possibly coordinate interview dates?"

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I got an invite for a Peds program at a certain hospital in another state where my husband has also applied for EM. People have just started getting invites for the EM program. Should my husband call the program to inquire about an interview since we're couples matching? If so, what should he say? Something like "My wife is interviewing for Peds on December ___, I was wondering if you were interested in my app and if so, could I possibly coordinate interview dates?"

That is exactly what I would do, but would do it via email.

 

[ramash]

Hello...

My fiance and I are seriously considering going in for couple's match.
I have scores in mid-90s and have passed step3 as well.
He has a 93 on Step1 and 84 on CK.
We have interviewed at 6 places each, out of which 4 are common to us.
All are categorical IM positions.

With this background, is it a reasonable decision to go ahead and apply as a couple?

I would appreciate responses from anyone who has/had themselves gone through couples match, or who could get me in touch with someone they know of who participated in it.

Many thanks and regards.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Couple's matching, at least mathematically, can't hurt you. It just gives you more control over how the match turns out.

You applied to 6 programs each, 4 in common. Therefore:

Person 1: Programs A,B,C,D,E,F
Person 2: Programs A,B,C,D,G,H

Thus -- A-D are mutual programs, E-H are "single" programs.

Let's assume:
1. that your interest in the programs is in alphabetical order
2. being together is the most important thing.
3. You would rather both match into different programs than have one of you remain unmatched.

Your match lists would be like this:
Rank Person 1 / Person 2
1. A A
2. B B
3. C C
4. D D

(That's all the same program combinations)

5. A B
6. B A

(Note: it doesn't matter what order these two ranks go in (or the rest of the pairs on this list). Both of them can't be possible. If they are both possible, then you would have both matched in A or B)

7. A C
8. C A
9. B C
10. C B
11. A D
12. D A
13. C D
14. D C
15. A G
16. A H
16. E A
17. F A
18. B G
19. B H
20. E B
21. F B
22. C G
23. C H
24. E C
25. F C
26. D G
27. D H
28. E D
29. F D
30. E G
31. E H
32. F G
33. F H

(That's the end of both of you matching)

34. A (Unmatched)
35. (Unmatched) A
36. B (Umatched)
37. (Unmatched) B

etc...

If you put all of the combinations in, then the result of a couples match will be identical to an un-couples match, except you get to have fine control over the combinations. Your chance of not matching is exactly the same.

If you have questions about this, feel free to PM me

 

[Anka]

I think when people say couple's matching hurts you, they're talking about the hit you take when you compromise with your loved one, as opposed to any statistical hit. For example, lets say I think program A is the best training available to me, and would rank it first if I was matching alone. My SO agrees to rank programs near program A at the top of her list. However, she doesn't match at any of those programs, so I don't match at Program A, my ideal program.

Anka