Create a hospital system that does not take medicare/medicaid??

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sylvanthus

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Random question, if a hospital or hospital system was created that did not take medicare/medicaid (went cash pay, private insurance, etc) would it be subject to half the bothersome rules, regulations, paperwork, etc? If not taking medicare do you have to follow EMTALA? "Section 1867 of the Social Security Act imposes specific obligations on Medicare-participating hospitals that offer emergency services to provide a medical screening examination (MSE)"

Just a random thought as I sit here in the ED being told by a CT tech that we are soon to be required to select from a preordained list of reasons for CT scanning and that if we go around this list to "non approved" reasons that reimbursement will be cut to the hospital.
 
I would choose the reason for exam I feel like. I don't care if the hospital doesn't get paid. They will of course still be paid.

In regards to your hospital. You couldn't have a true ED. Also keep in mind you need state licenses for a hospital which will be a challenge and if you aren't taking CMS money not only are you cutting out a huge population of patients but why would any insurance company contract with you. Lastly, all you could really do is operate as a glorified urgent care.
 
I would choose the reason for exam I feel like. I don't care if the hospital doesn't get paid. They will of course still be paid.

In regards to your hospital. You couldn't have a true ED. Also keep in mind you need state licenses for a hospital which will be a challenge and if you aren't taking CMS money not only are you cutting out a huge population of patients but why would any insurance company contract with you. Lastly, all you could really do is operate as a glorified urgent care.

Mostly correct. Much of the time you need a "certificate of need" from the state in order to get approval to build a hospital. They'd be very unlikely to approve this if you're not seeing Medicaid/indigent populations.

You could have an emergency department, you just couldn't call it that. There would be nothing stopping such a proposed hospital from having full EM capabilities. You could also take non-emergent ambulance traffic if a patient "requests" to come to your facility.
 
Random question, if a hospital or hospital system was created that did not take medicare/medicaid (went cash pay, private insurance, etc) would it be subject to half the bothersome rules, regulations, paperwork, etc? If not taking medicare do you have to follow EMTALA? "Section 1867 of the Social Security Act imposes specific obligations on Medicare-participating hospitals that offer emergency services to provide a medical screening examination (MSE)"

Just a random thought as I sit here in the ED being told by a CT tech that we are soon to be required to select from a preordained list of reasons for CT scanning and that if we go around this list to "non approved" reasons that reimbursement will be cut to the hospital.
Absolutely, a hospital can be set up to function and not accept Medicare or Medicaid and avoid the associated rules and regulations. But no group of hospital administrators would ever give up such a large portion of revenue for them, when they can throw rules and regulation compliance in the the laps of you and I.
 
A few things.
The EMTALA thing is state dependent. You had better believe that while FSEDs aren't bound by EMTALA because they aren't recognized by CMS, they damn sure are bound by Texas's law that says they still have to. Which sucks even harder and is why they don't open in high Medicare areas.
You can make a microhospital/cash pay setup if your state allows it. Texas is not a CON state. Build as many as you want.
 
Mostly correct. Much of the time you need a "certificate of need" from the state in order to get approval to build a hospital. They'd be very unlikely to approve this if you're not seeing Medicaid/indigent populations.

You could have an emergency department, you just couldn't call it that. There would be nothing stopping such a proposed hospital from having full EM capabilities. You could also take non-emergent ambulance traffic if a patient "requests" to come to your facility.
But no insurance company will contract with you. Hospitals make money on elective procedures. That would be gone if you are totally oon
 
Aren't the Harvard hospitals outside CMS? I thought I heard that, that they are not beholden to EMTALA.

Whaaaaaaaat? Naw bro, MGH, BWH, BIDMC all certainly beholden to CMS, EMTALA, DPH, yada yada ya...
 
In my fantasyland, if I had a billion cajillion dollars I would open up a self funded hospital that provided free care to patients, would not accept ANY insurance, be it medicare medicaid or private. docs would get paid flat market rates. You would be able to do away completely with metrics, as there would be no consideration or need for CMS dollars. If patients weren't satisfied, they'd simply be told they shouldn't be complaining when their care is being provided free of charge and that beggars can't be choosers. EMTALA may still apply, but would be a moot issue. Docs would kill to work at a place like that...
 
Im just trying to think ahead to 20-30 years when the documentation requirements become more and more, regulations continue to worsen, the healthcare system becomes basically two tiered with medicare/medicaid patients going to midlevels, private insurance patients going to physicians. Brainstorming on how the pendulum will swing the other way. Will physicians say fuk it were not dealing with this crap anymore and go concierge? Start their own hospital system somehow that is run by physicians instead of random MBA execs and take private insurance, cash only? Start a system where patients in the community pay in on a yearly basis and get their care primarily at that hospital and no insurance is taken? Something is eventually gonna give, just kinda curious what a good bailout plan could be.
 
Im just trying to think ahead to 20-30 years when the documentation requirements become more and more, regulations continue to worsen, the healthcare system becomes basically two tiered with medicare/medicaid patients going to midlevels, private insurance patients going to physicians. Brainstorming on how the pendulum will swing the other way. Will physicians say fuk it were not dealing with this crap anymore and go concierge? Start their own hospital system somehow that is run by physicians instead of random MBA execs and take private insurance, cash only? Start a system where patients in the community pay in on a yearly basis and get their care primarily at that hospital and no insurance is taken? Something is eventually gonna give, just kinda curious what a good bailout plan could be.

Everything depends. Most of the Medicare-For-All proposals ban private medical care that provides "duplicative services" to Medicare, meaning you can't open a private cash pay clinic if those same services are covered under Medicare. Theoretically all private healthcare would be banned under the Bernie/Warren plans. Some of the other plans like Biden's would eventually replace private insurance with a "public option" but the massive taxes needed to fund a universal plan would mean that very few people would have the disposable income to pay for private medicine.
 
Yup. And any surviving ED’s will become overrun with bogus referrals. More work for less pay and higher taxes.


Everything depends. Most of the Medicare-For-All proposals ban private medical care that provides "duplicative services" to Medicare, meaning you can't open a private cash pay clinic if those same services are covered under Medicare. Theoretically all private healthcare would be banned under the Bernie/Warren plans. Some of the other plans like Biden's would eventually replace private insurance with a "public option" but the massive taxes needed to fund a universal plan would mean that very few people would have the disposable income to pay for private medicine.
 
Im just trying to think ahead to 20-30 years when the documentation requirements become more and more, regulations continue to worsen, the healthcare system becomes basically two tiered with medicare/medicaid patients going to midlevels, private insurance patients going to physicians. Brainstorming on how the pendulum will swing the other way. Will physicians say fuk it were not dealing with this crap anymore and go concierge? Start their own hospital system somehow that is run by physicians instead of random MBA execs and take private insurance, cash only? Start a system where patients in the community pay in on a yearly basis and get their care primarily at that hospital and no insurance is taken? Something is eventually gonna give, just kinda curious what a good bailout plan could be.
My understanding is it all boils down to if a state is 'Certificate of Need' or not.
Next issue, is having the money to open such a hospital. And get the requisite specialists.
Think from your own perspective, as a private insured patient, why would you want to go to this non-CMS hospital over the local hospital? You will want to know they have the specialists there too you might need.
Another issue, is the doctors will all have to have opted out of Medicare. Not be non-par, but opted out. That comes with a 2 year 'ban' from entering back into Medicare. This means these doctors are unemployable at the usual places for 2 years. That's a big trust leap for most doctors to take, they will need some serious motivation to make that leap.
The reason why the doctors will have to be opted out, is because if a medicare patient shows up at that place, and you a medicare certified doc at facility XYZ (elsewhere), and ignored the contract requirement to be opted out, attempt to charge cash prices of this medicare beneficiary you will get banned from medicare and be required to refund their money. Then this hospital, because it employs a banned medicare doctor will be on the list of 'Do not do business with' that medicare/feds keep track off. Which means DME, suppliers, contractors, etc can't do business with the hospital after that...
Its one thing if an ED doc opens up a very simple urgent care cash only facility on the side, most people aren't going to pay attention or care.
But a full fledged hospital is going to tick off the local hospitals and they will use every tactic they can to micturate in your cornflakes.
There is a good chance that private insurance companies will contract with such a hospital, but there is no guarantee they'll give good rates.
Also, some insurance companies will give these doctors a hard time to be paneled at this new hospital, and won't let them get paneled because they need to have a privileges at a JCAHO/CMS recognized hospital (I experienced this with new psych hospital that was in limbo with contracts until they got certified and essentially they had to do probono care for the first dozens of patients, to appease CMS/JCAHO people to then get the certification to then get the insurance contracts). My privileges at this hospital didn't 'count' in the eyes of some insurance companies.

In some ways the system is stacked against such an environment and almost forces it to be entirely cash and out of network. Until midlevels and other pressures drastically tank the US health care system to the point of being like the UK NHS I doubt there will be a critical mass of people willing to flee to such a facility.

I do believe there is room for niche type 'hospitals' like a 1-2 psychiatrist practice opening up a 5-10 bed unit, or GI docs opening up a 6 bed unit that also has an attached scope suite. With 4 GI doc group, they would likely have enough pancreatitis, Abd pain, etc cases to admit to their own unit instead of the traditional hospital.

The most likely solution is the above poster advocating for a complete cash only opt out dream/lottery funded, flat salary hospital run by physicians.
 
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