Critcal Questions

[Northridger]

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Before you go to ANY residency program - several questions to research/ask/know.

1) Ask current residents - has any resident that you are aware of ever been dismissed or fired from this program? If so, for what, why, by whom, - what happened to them? what were the circumstances?

2) Has any resident been targeted or seemingly harassed - if so why? what were the circumstances? what eventually happened?

3) Has any resident in this program been suspended, placed on probation, or excessively scrutinized by ANY attending physicians in this program?

4) Are there any abusive physicians in this residency program? Why are they viewed that way?

5) Did ANY resident in this program have to obtain a lawyer for any reason as it relates to this residency program?

6) Did any resident in this program have to address improperly or wrongful information reported to FCVS by this program?

the list could go on - but before you join ANY residency program - KNOW WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH. Their is no substitute for being you own detective - research - research and research ahead of time. Avoid any programs that show patterns of abuse or patterns of destroying residents for reasons that are not CLEARLY OBVIOUS OR IDENTIFIABLE.

 

[Disinence2]

In regards to #3

I would bet that every program in the country has placed a resident on probation for one reason or another at some point.

I would recommend not grilling your interviewers with these sorta questions unless the program clearly demonstrated a pattern

 

[JediZero]

Before you go to ANY residency program - several questions to research/ask/know.

1) Ask current residents - has any resident that you are aware of ever been dismissed or fired from this program? If so, for what, why, by whom, - what happened to them? what were the circumstances?

2) Has any resident been targeted or seemingly harassed - if so why? what were the circumstances? what eventually happened?

3) Has any resident in this program been suspended, placed on probation, or excessively scrutinized by ANY attending physicians in this program?

4) Are there any abusive physicians in this residency program? Why are they viewed that way?

5) Did ANY resident in this program have to obtain a lawyer for any reason as it relates to this residency program?

6) Did any resident in this program have to address improperly or wrongful information reported to FCVS by this program?

the list could go on - but before you join ANY residency program - KNOW WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH. Their is no substitute for being you own detective - research - research and research ahead of time. Avoid any programs that show patterns of abuse or patterns of destroying residents for reasons that are not CLEARLY OBVIOUS OR IDENTIFIABLE.

Given the two posts you've made using this profile, I'd say you have a bone to pick. While it's obviously worthwhile to do your homework, I'm not sure you're offering dispassionate input here. Would you mind giving some more concrete information on why you're so upset?

 

[Arcan57]

Before you go to ANY residency program - several questions to research/ask/know.

1) Ask current residents - has any resident that you are aware of ever been dismissed or fired from this program? If so, for what, why, by whom, - what happened to them? what were the circumstances?

2) Has any resident been targeted or seemingly harassed - if so why? what were the circumstances? what eventually happened?

3) Has any resident in this program been suspended, placed on probation, or excessively scrutinized by ANY attending physicians in this program?

4) Are there any abusive physicians in this residency program? Why are they viewed that way?

5) Did ANY resident in this program have to obtain a lawyer for any reason as it relates to this residency program?

6) Did any resident in this program have to address improperly or wrongful information reported to FCVS by this program?

the list could go on - but before you join ANY residency program - KNOW WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH. Their is no substitute for being you own detective - research - research and research ahead of time. Avoid any programs that show patterns of abuse or patterns of destroying residents for reasons that are not CLEARLY OBVIOUS OR IDENTIFIABLE.

While it's definitely worthwhile to know whether a program is malignant, a decent number of those questions are going to be difficult to bring up in a tactful manner. Any given resident may or may not have the answers for 2-6. Essentially any termination that involves or involved the threat of litigation is going to make everyone involved shut up so they're not dragged into court. The other thing to keep in mind is that if the resident fell into HR's sights, there is very little the program can do to change things as that's a hospital thing not a residency thing.

 

[la gringa]

isn't resident dismissal at least partially overseen by RRC rules? as far as having a process and whatnot?

 

[Tiger26]

Before you go to ANY residency program - several questions to research/ask/know.

1) Ask current residents - has any resident that you are aware of ever been dismissed or fired from this program? If so, for what, why, by whom, - what happened to them? what were the circumstances?

2) Has any resident been targeted or seemingly harassed - if so why? what were the circumstances? what eventually happened?

3) Has any resident in this program been suspended, placed on probation, or excessively scrutinized by ANY attending physicians in this program?

4) Are there any abusive physicians in this residency program? Why are they viewed that way?

5) Did ANY resident in this program have to obtain a lawyer for any reason as it relates to this residency program?

6) Did any resident in this program have to address improperly or wrongful information reported to FCVS by this program?

the list could go on - but before you join ANY residency program - KNOW WHO YOU ARE DEALING WITH. Their is no substitute for being you own detective - research - research and research ahead of time. Avoid any programs that show patterns of abuse or patterns of destroying residents for reasons that are not CLEARLY OBVIOUS OR IDENTIFIABLE.

In all but the most tactful of circumstances, these questions are going to raise considerable red flags in the mind of the interviewer as far as yet-to-be identified pathology. Tread lightly

 

[deuist]

Here's how I would take your questions if someone were to ask me when I was a resident.

1) Ask current residents - has any resident that you are aware of ever been dismissed or fired from this program? If so, for what, why, by whom, - what happened to them? what were the circumstances?

Nope or maybe there was this one guy who got dismissed once before. He was terrible.

2) Has any resident been targeted or seemingly harassed - if so why? what were the circumstances? what eventually happened?

What do you mean by harassed? If you mean yelled out or criticized, well yeah. What the hell kind of residency do you think you're getting into?

3) Has any resident in this program been suspended, placed on probation, or excessively scrutinized by ANY attending physicians in this program?

How would I know? That's for the administration to deal with. They aren't going to tell us.

4) Are there any abusive physicians in this residency program? Why are they viewed that way?

Why are abusive people viewed as being abusive? Look, you aren't going to get along with everyone here, or any other place for that matter. As far as abusive, you've got to define "abuse" just like you need to define "harassment." Besides, at a night-before dinner, there's no way in hell I'm telling an applicant that we have abusive attendings.

5) Did ANY resident in this program have to obtain a lawyer for any reason as it relates to this residency program?

Huh? Again, how would I know that?

6) Did any resident in this program have to address improperly or wrongful information reported to FCVS by this program?

Now you're really getting off into the deep end of paranoia. Our interview is now concluded and you won't be coming here.

 

[e30ftw]

I would not recommend asking any of those questions.

Stick with the "So what is there to do for fun around here?" questions then wherever you match, show up on time, work hard and at 99% of programs you will be just fine if you are a well adjusted human being. Of course I'm sure at some places there are abrasive personalities, like anything in life, which is why I would recommend rotating at a place you want to go and trying to match there if you still like it after your rotation.

ps: I love my program, it is awesome, the end.

 

[Doctor Bob]

Now you're really getting off into the deep end of paranoia. Our interview is now concluded and you won't be coming here.

I would have reached this point by question #3

 

[Northridger]

." Besides, at a night-before dinner, there's no way in hell I'm telling an applicant that we have abusive attendings."


See - this is the attitude that exists. He knows that abusive attendings exist but indicates that nothing will be done about it.

Abuse does exist and it has destroyed osteopathic residents. Marietta is just an example.

 

[Doctor Bob]

See - this is the attitude that exists. He knows that abusive attendings exist but indicates that nothing will be done about it.

There are bad attendings at -every- program. But learning how to deal with them is part of the learning process. The really egregious ones get canned by the departments and don't need the residents to get involved in the process.

It's just like... no program is going to say "we see a lot of malingerers, chronic pain patients, and fibromyalgics", even though they all do.

Everything about an interview (the dinner, the tour, etc) is a way for the program to sell themselves to applicants. We aren't going to point out all of the bad things about our program.

"And this is Dr. Bob... he's one of our abusive attendings".

 

[QuackaDO]

There are bad attendings at -every- program. But learning how to deal with them is part of the learning process. The really egregious ones get canned by the departments and don't need the residents to get involved in the process.

It's just like... no program is going to say "we see a lot of malingerers, chronic pain patients, and fibromyalgics", even though they all do.

Everything about an interview (the dinner, the tour, etc) is a way for the program to sell themselves to applicants. We aren't going to point out all of the bad things about our program.

"And this is Dr. Bob... he's one of our abusive attendings".

Dr. Bob, the first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem 😉

 

[Khaos]

Wow, based on your last post, I'm thinking you were the resident that had been fired 46 months into a 48 month program. Good luck with your vendetta against the OH program. You sound like those people that say..."I have a friend that has this rash...I swear it's a friend."

 

[Siggy]

Can I have your stuff/spot?

 

[Apollyon]

." Besides, at a night-before dinner, there's no way in hell I'm telling an applicant that we have abusive attendings."


See - this is the attitude that exists. He knows that abusive attendings exist but indicates that nothing will be done about it.

Abuse does exist and it has destroyed osteopathic residents. Marietta is just an example.

I knew there was some hook like this. I have to give great credit to my DO colleagues that do AOA residencies - those I've encountered are quite competent, good doctors, but I've read things on SDN - by DOs, and DO students, not hatchet jobs by USMDs or FMGs - that show how "fast and loose" a seeming lot of places run. **** happens at these places that would NEVER go down in an ACGME place. And, beyond that, it's the culture - like "if you don't rotate with us, you won't match here". Umm...ok? What, your match list is 15 people long?

Likewise, I believe the AOA allows people to do unpaid residencies (that is, you work for free, but you get the position).

To parse together what this guy wrote: 46/48 months, discharged, no prior disciplinary action. What are the possibilities? 1. this didn't actually happen 2. there was prior disciplinary action 3. this actually did happen just like this person said, and that would leave me SMH.

It's one of those things, but I don't know which.

My buddy RustedFox wrote that he wished he could have done a DO residency, strictly for location reasons. I don't know that location alone would be worth such malignancy (and I intentionally use that over-used word in this case).

 

[gro2001]

I knew there was some hook like this. I have to give great credit to my DO colleagues that do AOA residencies - those I've encountered are quite competent, good doctors, but I've read things on SDN - by DOs, and DO students, not hatchet jobs by USMDs or FMGs - that show how "fast and loose" a seeming lot of places run. **** happens at these places that would NEVER go down in an ACGME place. And, beyond that, it's the culture - like "if you don't rotate with us, you won't match here". Umm...ok? What, your match list is 15 people long?

Likewise, I believe the AOA allows people to do unpaid residencies (that is, you work for free, but you get the position).

To parse together what this guy wrote: 46/48 months, discharged, no prior disciplinary action. What are the possibilities? 1. this didn't actually happen 2. there was prior disciplinary action 3. this actually did happen just like this person said, and that would leave me SMH.

It's one of those things, but I don't know which.

My buddy RustedFox wrote that he wished he could have done a DO residency, strictly for location reasons. I don't know that location alone would be worth such malignancy (and I intentionally use that over-used word in this case).

I think there may be some situations where a sudden dismissal without any warning or prior disciplinary action may be the only course of action. Examples: caught stealing/diverting drugs, arrested for serious crime, etc.

 

[RustedFox]

I knew there was some hook like this. I have to give great credit to my DO colleagues that do AOA residencies - those I've encountered are quite competent, good doctors, but I've read things on SDN - by DOs, and DO students, not hatchet jobs by USMDs or FMGs - that show how "fast and loose" a seeming lot of places run. **** happens at these places that would NEVER go down in an ACGME place. And, beyond that, it's the culture - like "if you don't rotate with us, you won't match here". Umm...ok? What, your match list is 15 people long?

Likewise, I believe the AOA allows people to do unpaid residencies (that is, you work for free, but you get the position).

To parse together what this guy wrote: 46/48 months, discharged, no prior disciplinary action. What are the possibilities? 1. this didn't actually happen 2. there was prior disciplinary action 3. this actually did happen just like this person said, and that would leave me SMH.

It's one of those things, but I don't know which.

My buddy RustedFox wrote that he wished he could have done a DO residency, strictly for location reasons. I don't know that location alone would be worth such malignancy (and I intentionally use that over-used word in this case).

Buddy? Awww, Thanks - amigo. That makes me feel good. Best to yah, wherever you are.

To all: Now don't get me wrong - I loved my residency site and all the people that were/are there. I still try to be as involved as I can, because I do feel very attached to it. I want to clarify: its not that I 'didn't like' where I trained... but when I think back about it; given the position that I was in (Carib grad, precious few interviews), I would have LOVED to have more 'options' available to me.... especially in the east OH/west PA area, as that place has always been 'home'. I see sites like "Erie", "Youngstown", "Johnstown", and in my brain I see nothing but the hills of my youth and all those good things that any young man remembers.

Moral of the story: Most, if not all residencies will train you to be a great EP. I went to a 'new' program, and loved it/have had no troubles getting a job/etc/etc. Life is multifactorial. Try and get as much out of it as you can.

 

[Groove]

Don't listen to the OP. God. If you show up acting questions like that you will label yourself as a high risk candidate. If you had asked me those questions during a residency dinner, I'd also think you were a complete douche.

I get it. Residency can be malignant. People get canned. Just keep your head down, try to work harder than the next guy and don't make waves. It's really that simple. Whenever you feel crying to the Chair or GME, take a deep breath and ask yourself is it really worth it? Are the risks you take in singling yourself out as a potential troublemaker worth taking? If so, go for it. My philosophy was very simple. ANYTHING was tolerable for 3-4 yrs. Period. That's a drop in the bucket of life. The (hopefully few) people that you can't stand will be miles away when you finish and completely out of your life. I can remember people getting so up in arms over issues during residency that seemed so insignificant to me in the grand scheme of things. That being said... I was a Carib grad who busted my ass in school and was just glad to get 10 interviews and match at my #1. I got great training from some exceptional faculty and worked with a solid group of colleagues.

Was it perfect? Of course not. Hell, nobody enjoys residency. Just keep it in perspective. I find it very hard to believe these vague examples of people who were just up and fired for no reason and completely blindsided with their careers ruined. No anticipation, room for correction or warning whatsoever?? I think not. If you didn't see the red flags, you probably weren't looking or were blissfully ignorant over the fact that termination is a possibility that residents face just like any other business employee. If people are poor workers and don't correct their mistakes, they get fired. That being said, no residency wants to have a track record of losing very many residents. It looks bad and it takes effort to replace your worker bee.

 

[Siggy]

Don't listen to the OP. God. If you show up acting questions like that you will label yourself as a high risk candidate. If you had asked me those questions during a residency dinner, I'd also think you were a complete douche.

Dear everyone... ask those questions. I need less competition. 😀

 

[jbar]

I think asking if any residents have recently left or transferred is a reasonable question, the other questions less so. I think it would raise my concern about a program if I found of 3 residents have left in the last 4 years. It's a like if a program has to scramble, makes you look twice. But I don't think it is a "must" ask question.

 

[Northridger]

" It's really that simple. Whenever you feel crying to the Chair or GME, take a deep breath and ask yourself is it really worth it? Are the risks you take in singling yourself out as a potential troublemaker worth taking? If so, go for it. My philosophy was very simple. ANYTHING was tolerable for 3-4 yrs. Period. That's a drop in the bucket of life."


.....................spoken like a true Attending who shows what he really thinks about your time in residency.

 

[KiloAxe]

My advice: work hard, be professional, don't do anything illegal, and have a positive attitude. It's not rocket science at this point in your training.

 

[deuist]

.....................spoken like a true Attending who shows what he really thinks about your time in residency.

You do realize that every attending on this board was a resident at one point, right? We all managed to get through by following the advice given here. Your posts come across as either extremely paranoid---"They're all out to get me"---or just whining. It's like when I was in boot camp and someone would complain, "But the drill sergeant yelled at me! Sniff, sniff."

 

[Rendar5]

You do realize that every attending on this board was a resident at one point, right? We all managed to get through by following the advice given here. Your posts come across as either extremely paranoid---"They're all out to get me"---or just whining. It's like when I was in boot camp and someone would complain, "But the drill sergeant yelled at me! Sniff, sniff."

See, you're totally one of THEM!

 

[Doctor Bob]

.....................spoken like a true Attending who shows what he really thinks about your time in residency.

I start every shift by giving the residents a hug. Then I sit each of them down and tell them at least 2 things that they do very well. Then I let them go take a nap.

 

[JediZero]

I start every shift by giving the residents a hug. Then I sit each of them down and tell them at least 2 things that they do very well. Then I let them go take a nap.

I'm sorry, which program are you at again? And is it too late to apply? 😀

 

[TooMuchResearch]

I'm sorry, which program are you at again? And is it too late to apply? 😀

👍

 

[deleted480308]

Almost anything is tolerable for a few years if it gets you what you want (em boarded). Don't ask those crazy questions. If someone wants to talk down to you a bit, view it as getting paid a lifetime of $300k/yr for 3 yrs of nuisance. I know grown men and women who get talked down to for $8/hr. get in a residency, learn the system there and work the system, keep your head down and complete the thing

I hire construction people at my work and anyone who cones in asking a million time off/"do i have to do x/workers comp questions does not get hired.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

" It's really that simple. Whenever you feel crying to the Chair or GME, take a deep breath and ask yourself is it really worth it? Are the risks you take in singling yourself out as a potential troublemaker worth taking? If so, go for it. My philosophy was very simple. ANYTHING was tolerable for 3-4 yrs. Period. That's a drop in the bucket of life."


.....................spoken like a true Attending who shows what he really thinks about your time in residency.

I'm an attending, but only for the last 3 months. This advice is absolutely golden for getting out with the minimum of trouble. One of the most unpleasant things for a resident is getting called into the PDs office for anything other than your yearly review.

 

[NinerNiner999]

There are so many things wrong with this tread that just don't add up.

1) It is October. Assuming the OP has a recent axe to grind and was terminated "46 months into a 48 month program", what residency program ends in December? To my knowledge, all residencies start in July and end in June unless special circumstances take place (remediation, leave, alternative schedule/late start, etc). I don't know about the DO residency schedule though. Whatever the reason, the timeline itself is abnormal and suggests underlying issues alone.

2) If the OP is angry because he/she was termed on a regular schedule, that would mean they were termed back in May - 5 months ago. Why complain now? Did 5 months of solitude, unemployment, and perhaps an acutely exacerbated alcohol/drug issue finally bring this to the surface?

3) Somebody lacks insight into their own deficiencies, and is seeking to gain support from a majority of people who cannot relate to their own situation. This has now turned into providing unsolicited advice to those less experienced as a way to vent and somehow fish for acceptance.

Medicine - especially Emergency Medicine - will constantly judge you. It begins in medical school, through clinicals and residency, and even through your time as an attending. If it's not a hard attending as a resident, it's Patient Satisfaction, Throughput, and patient complaints in the real world. The best advice given in this thread is to put your head down, focus on the end of 3-4 years, don't complain, take your lumps, stay honest, and move forward. Residency is a right of passage, but not a right in itself. Just as your credentials imply, it is a privilege to work in a hospital, and a privilege that not every applicant to emergency medicine gets.

 

[Northridger]

"You do realize that every attending on this board was a resident at one point, right? We all managed to get through by following the advice given here."


...............To what board are you referring too? every attending on the this board? sniff sniff....I'm crying and need my mommie? Brother I've thru more hell and **** in this world than you can possibly begin to imagine. Maybe not as much as you or others may have been in actual combat if that is the case. But, quite honestly - a lot of the posts on here seem to come from attending physicians who just want everyone else to just deal with it regardless. No, that's not the case in the modern world. There are rules.

 

[sylvanthus]

"You do realize that every attending on this board was a resident at one point, right? We all managed to get through by following the advice given here."


...............To what board are you referring too? every attending on the this board? sniff sniff....I'm crying and need my mommie? Brother I've thru more hell and **** in this world than you can possibly begin to imagine. Maybe not as much as you or others may have been in actual combat if that is the case. But, quite honestly - a lot of the posts on here seem to come from attending physicians who just want everyone else to just deal with it regardless. No, that's not the case in the modern world. There are rules.

Ugh

 

[Daiphon]

...No, that's not the case in the modern world. There are rules.

This is true. The rules exist, and go both ways - there are responsibilities on the part of both program AND resident that need to be met. If either does not live up to their end of the bargain, there are repercussions.

That being said, I've been following your parallel sagas and I have to say that your approach to this seems a bit immature.

As many have stated, you've yet to provide any specifics to support your claims of inappropriate dismissal.

Consequently, we denizens of SDN/EM are left to imply through your disjoint rants that it is possible and highly probable that the program in question was in the right. We don't know the terms here; if you can back up your claims then we will certainly reconsider.

Furthermore, you come across as a little child who's mad because Johnny won't let you play with his toys. Yes, residency can suck, and the reason we attendings are telling you to get over it isn't because we seek to minimize the situation; but rather because at one time or another we've likely been there. It doesn't get better as an attending; we don't have a residency program or someone else to fall back on.

Life isn't fair, and it's not worth it to get worked up over things that are immutable. St. Francis is your friend...

So, please, regale us with specifics so that we might make a more informed decision & provide better advice.

-d


Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[Doctor Bob]

..............To what board are you referring too? every attending on the this board?

I think they are referring to SDN

Brother I've thru more hell and **** in this world than you can possibly begin to imagine.

Besides the fact that we all have very vivid imaginations, bad s*** happens to everyone. Very few people have idyllic storybook lives.

Maybe not as much as you or others may have been in actual combat if that is the case.

Haha... I'm actually writing this from a tent in Afghanistan. Wearing this body armor all the time is really starting to get old.

But, quite honestly - a lot of the posts on here seem to come from attending physicians who just want everyone else to just deal with it regardless. No, that's not the case in the modern world. There are rules.

It's not that we're saying everything is excusable; yes, we know there are things that cross the line and when they occur they should get addressed. But there are a lot of things that you do have to learn to deal with. Because it doesn't get much better after graduation.

I had a patient write a letter of complaint to my department chair because I wouldn't write her percocet for her 4 day old sunburn. I also took a hit to my PG scores and that can affect my pay (at civilian places where I moonlight... it means very little where I am in the military but that's another story). It's unfair, it's idiotic, and I have to just deal with it. The same stuff occurs in residency and if you don't develop strategies to deal with it, you will crash and burn as an attending. While you're a resident you have your attendings to shield you from a lot of the liability and patient complaints and departmental bulls***. As an attending now your house, your car, your bank account, etc, etc, etc is all on the line.

 

[Apollyon]

"You do realize that every attending on this board was a resident at one point, right? We all managed to get through by following the advice given here."


...............To what board are you referring too? every attending on the this board? sniff sniff....I'm crying and need my mommie? Brother I've thru more hell and **** in this world than you can possibly begin to imagine. Maybe not as much as you or others may have been in actual combat if that is the case. But, quite honestly - a lot of the posts on here seem to come from attending physicians who just want everyone else to just deal with it regardless. No, that's not the case in the modern world. There are rules.

First, PLEASE use the quote function. Your posting style does not help.

Second, as to the bolded:

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