CRNAs-- liability and malpractice

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Leche

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CRNAs often claim they should be able to practice independently and bill accordingly. How does liability and malpractice fit in to the picture? Who's liable when something goes wrong? Are they required to have the same coverage MDAs do? Wouldn't insurance companies prefer to have MDAs provide anesthesia?

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leche,

i am a crna who currently practices independently in the state of WA. i have my own malpractice insurance. i am not required to be supervised by any physician. i am accountable for my own actions. i would have no problem working with anesthesiologists but that is not an option for me because there are places in the country where anesthesiologists do not care to work with crnas or there are no anesthesiologists in the area. i bill for my care at the same rate as anesthesiologists and have had no problem getting reimbursed. i also had no problem getting malpractice insurance. that's the scoop....here's some info i thought you might find interesting:


"The Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO) does not require anesthesiologist supervision of CRNAs nor does Medicare.

Some states require that nurse anesthetists be supervised or directed by a physician (such as a surgeon), dentist or podiatrist. Those who seek to discourage physicians from working with nurse anesthetists have incorrectly asserted that a supervising physician becomes liable for the negligent acts of the CRNA. A physician or authorized provider is not automatically liable when working with a CRNA, nor is the physician immune from liability when working with an anesthesiologist.

The principles governing the liability of a surgeon or obstetrician when working with a CRNA are the same as those governing the liability of a surgeon or obstetrician when working with an anesthesiologist. Whether or not a surgeon or obstetrician will be held liable for the negligence of the anesthetist depends on the facts of the case, not on the nature of the license of the anesthesia provider. Generally, the courts do not look at the status of the anesthesia provider, but at the degree of control the physician exercises over the anesthetist-- whether that anesthetist is a CRNA or an anesthesiologist. The issue in each case is the extent to which the physician has control over the anesthesia administrator. "
 
gasnurse,

how much is your malpractice? How does it compare to MDAs in your area?
 
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Thanks for the info GasNurse
 
my malpractice is significantly less than the anesthesiologists in my area (to the best of my knowledge). bonus for me. 😀
 
gasnurse,

How do you have lower malpractice than the anesthesiologists in your area yet you do the same stuff?? That really does not seem fair.
 
gasnurse said:
The Joint Commission on Accreditation of Healthcare Organizations (JCAHO) does not require anesthesiologist supervision of CRNAs nor does Medicare.

Some states require that nurse anesthetists be supervised or directed by a physician (such as a surgeon), dentist or podiatrist.

Correct my if I'm wrong - Medicare requires PHYSICIAN supervision of CRNA's unless that state has opted out of those requirements by formal action of the governor. What's the current number that have opted out - 12 or 14?
 
you are correct....i believe the number opted out at this point is 12....my state, WA, is one of them. and about why my malpractice cost is lower i can't answer that. i just pay what i'm told. i agree it doesn't seem fair. that would be a question for the carriers.
 
gasnurse said:
you are correct....i believe the number opted out at this point is 12....my state, WA, is one of them. and about why my malpractice cost is lower i can't answer that. i just pay what i'm told. i agree it doesn't seem fair. that would be a question for the carriers.

I have my suspicions. They number three

1). Malpractice carriers are concerned with one thing and one think only - the loss experience of the class of insured providers. For one reason or another the "loss experience" for CRNA's is lower than that of MDA's. The question is this: in what way is it lower, and why? I think we can dismiss from the outset the notion that CRNA's have better "loss experience" than MDA's do when comparing the same group of patients. This would entail a showing (evident to the carriers, in any event) that outcomes are better when CRNA's administer anesthetics than when MDA's do. No studies (that I am aware of) have shown this. If anything, they show outcomes across a particular class of patients to be the same (see Pine study - which the AANA LOVES). And yet "loss experience" is lower. One way to explain this is to suggest that the "risk of loss" is lower across the patient population a CRNA typically sees versus that which an MDA sees. This suggests, then, that in the aggregate the MDA will see more complicated cases where the risk of loss is greater than a CRNA will.
As you know, the Pine study was "risk adjusted", which I gathered meant that the nine (9) surgical procedures under review would commonly be done either by a CRNA alone, a CRNA and MDA or an MDA alone. It either excluded what the authors thought were "risky" procedures OR it included these "risky" procedures but adjusted outcome data from these to have the greater mortality rates of these procedures not reflect poorly on the anesthesia provider involved. IF both CRNA's and MDA's were equally likely to have participated in these more "risky" procedures, there would have been no need to "risk adjust" the study because the "risk" associated with the procedures would have been equally fair to both groups.

2). The carriers insure against loss across the entire spectrum of what an MDA (or DOA), and the spectrum is not merely limited to the "administration of anesthetics" but also the post-operative period. This point is emphasized by the CRNA industry group (AANA? I can't recall) in its response to the recent study comparing CRNA and MDA outcomes (the Silber study). The CRNA position was this:

However, a closer examination clearly reveals that the study:

---is not about anesthesia care provided by nurse anesthetists

---actually examines post-operative physician care.
AANA

ie., that the study was too broad in that it evaluated outcomes not only for the administration of anesthetics but also a significant(30 day?) post-operative plan. I think there might have been some suggestion that greater "rescue" performance by MDA's was not a good evaluation of CRNA performance because "rescue" was outside the scope of anesthetic administration. Whatever side you come down on regarding this issue, the basic premise of the CRNA industry group argument is sound - the administration of anesthetics is merely a subset of the scope of practice of an MDA, and because CRNA's engage ONLY in the administration of anesthetics (remember, this was the CRNA group position) it is only fair to compare them to MDA's in regards to outcomes only within this limited subset of what an MDA does - ie., only with respect to the administration of anesthetics. As I said, however, carriers insure an MDA against loss over the entire spectrum of what an MDA does, and therefore because his scope is greater (post-operative care - some work as intesivists, ICU, SICU - trips to the ER for airway management, etc.) than that of a CRNA, his loss experience will necessarily be greater. Which is to say that although CRNA's are correct that they ONLY deal with the administration of anesthetics, the insurance carriers know that MDA's are responsible for quite a bot more (and presumably patients are interested in knowing that there IS somebody in the room who is responsible for this part of thier care).

3) despite the official line from the AANA: "Whether or not a surgeon or obstetrician will be held liable for the negligence of the anesthetist depends on the facts of the case, not on the nature of the license of the anesthesia provider" the reality is that even today - with BROAD practice autonomy of CRNA's, most (not all - don't come back with a bunch of crap about how your program doesn't do it this way) major surgical centers STILL require an MDA to exercise a supervisory role over CRNA's in a sort of "provider team" orthodoxy. If not an MDA, the perhaps the surgeon. The point is this - this still prominent practice model (despite technical autonomy for CRNA's) means increased a exposure to the supervising physician and decreased exposore to the CRNA. In practice then, carriers will have less "loss experience" for CRNA's than they will for MDA because of "residual" supervision.

Anyway, just some guesses.

Judd
 
BTW, does anybody have access to this study:

"Comparative Outcomes Analysis of Procedures Performed in Physician Offices and Ambulatory Surgery Centers" Arch Surg. 2003;138:939.


I would be interested in the conclusions.

Judd
 
Also,

Who has the Vogue article (that beacon of medical scholarship) entitled "shopping for Surgery" June 2004? Apparently the AANA is hopping mad over its contents.

judd
 
juddson said:
Also,

Who has the Vogue article (that beacon of medical scholarship) entitled "shopping for Surgery" June 2004? Apparently the AANA is hopping mad over its contents.

judd

Can't find the article, but you can get the gist of it and the CRNA's reaction from this thread.

http://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68280
 
juddson said:
BTW, does anybody have access to this study:

"Comparative Outcomes Analysis of Procedures Performed in Physician Offices and Ambulatory Surgery Centers" Arch Surg. 2003;138:939.


I would be interested in the conclusions.

Judd


CONCLUSIONS: In this review of surgical procedures performed in offices and ambulatory surgery centers in Florida during a recent 2-year period, there was an approximately 10-fold increased risk of adverse incidents and death in the office setting. If all office procedures had been performed in ambulatory surgery centers, approximately 43 injuries and 6 deaths per year could have been prevented.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12963657

-Skip
 
"Whether or not a surgeon or obstetrician will be held liable for the negligence of the anesthetist depends on the facts of the case, not on the nature of the license of the anesthesia provider"

not true.

regardless of what medicare, jcaho, different states say, it's the hospital policy that could end up dinging the surgeon regardless.

A recent case that was featured in a malpractice journal found a surgeon not responsible for any wrongdoing in a pt's death, but the *hospital policy* that the physician is responsible "by proxy" has kept him in the case even though he was basically aquitted and is trying to get out.
 
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