CRNAs no longer needed

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dfk said:
my guess it might mean the end of ALL anesthesia providers
Click to expand...
No it won't.
Think about it as if you are going to write a computer program that can replace the human anesthesia provider:
This software they are using is only looking at 3 variables and making decisions accordingly to control 2 or 3 different drips.
The human operator looks at many more variables including things that are very difficult to translate for a computer (like surgeon's specific style and speed for example), then the human provider can integrate this huge amount of data and make choices that are way more sophisticated than adjusting 3 infusions.
It might be possible sometime in the very distant future but that would be a time when we would have achieved such advanced computers that the surgery itself and all other aspects of health care will be completely computerized.
This will be a time when the patient will be taken to an OR where no humans are present and the surgery might not even require an incision.
Actually they might not need anesthesia anymore because we would have discovered the perfect anesthetic which is one drug that can eliminate all painful sensations without interfering with any vital function and it can be given as a pill just 5 minutes before surgery.
 
got to agree plank, mcsleepy only monitors agent narcotic and relaxation, if that is all there is to anesthesia then we could all be replaced by the slurpee dude down the street.
 
Jeezy Peezy, where's the Japanese robot that puts in the ETT? Regards, ---Zip
 
Planes have autopilots, but I ain't riding in one without a real live human that is at least making sure the autopilot is working. Automation will only go so far. You still need someone to tell the autopilot what to do and to do the manual activities that is not programmed into the system.
 
Planktonmd said:
No it won't.
Think about it as if you are going to write a computer program that can replace the human anesthesia provider:
This software they are using is only looking at 3 variables and making decisions accordingly to control 2 or 3 different drips.
The human operator looks at many more variables including things that are very difficult to translate for a computer (like surgeon's specific style and speed for example), then the human provider can integrate this huge amount of data and make choices that are way more sophisticated than adjusting 3 infusions.
It might be possible sometime in the very distant future but that would be a time when we would have achieved such advanced computers that the surgery itself and all other aspects of health care will be completely computerized.
This will be a time when the patient will be taken to an OR where no humans are present and the surgery might not even require an incision.
Actually they might not need anesthesia anymore because we would have discovered the perfect anesthetic which is one drug that can eliminate all painful sensations without interfering with any vital function and it can be given as a pill just 5 minutes before surgery.
Click to expand...
i agree, and i'm actually not a fan of this idea.
but, think of it this way..
there will be surgeons and anesthesia providers fighting for the control booth arm wrestling to see whose joystick is the biggest and the best...
 
dfk said:
i agree, and i'm actually not a fan of this idea.
but, think of it this way..
there will be surgeons and anesthesia providers fighting for the control booth arm wrestling to see whose joystick is the biggest and the best...
Click to expand...
Oh, the surgeons will always have the biggest joystick, they will have custom made joysticks while the anesthesiologist will have the crappy small one that has the hospital name on it.
 
Planktonmd said:
Oh, the surgeons will always have the biggest joystick, they will have custom made joysticks while the anesthesiologist will have the crappy small one that has the hospital name on it.
Click to expand...

probably the manual switch control right off a narkomed 2B
 
Why not? Do not fear. We will still be needed. Somebody has to load the drips and chnage the circuit and suction cannisters.
 
Technology has amazing ways of changing how things are done. Don't discount anything.

Here's something else I would like to see. The layout of the OR's need to change. If anesthesiology is moving toward a future of being supervisory, then the OR's should be layed out in a hub-and-spoke model where the OR's are layed out as the spokes and in the center a main nerve control center from where the anesthesiologists can monitor many rooms simultaneously either through windows or computer monitors and access an OR quickly. This would be far more efficient than what we have now.
 
pd4emergence said:
Planes have autopilots, but I ain't riding in one without a real live human that is at least making sure the autopilot is working. Automation will only go so far. You still need someone to tell the autopilot what to do and to do the manual activities that is not programmed into the system.
Click to expand...


I think the point is that if something goes wrong when overseeing a room, the anesthesiologist can be notified by the machine through a PDA for example, instead of being called in by a monitoring CRNA or AA.

Why pay a CRNA when you can invest in a machine to do similar work.

Hypothetically speaking...
 
You will always need somebody who knows how to intervene in case the machine breaks down or doesn't work properly or when the patient starts to code.

Although, if this machine catches on, the need to babysit the patient goes way down. Honestly, I don't know why nobody has created this machine yet. It's not that difficult to envision or design. If you combine technology and better OR layout, that could be part of the future of aneshesia.

I've commented before about how such technology could revolutionize the OR. With CRNA salaries going higher and higher, there's even more incentive by companies and hospitals for this type of technology. A machine that doesn't take breaks, doesn't quit in the middle of cases after 8 hours, and doesn't demand more money every year. You will still need the anesthesia team, but they will be in the anesthesia control room monitoring all of the OR's and ready to act quickly if something goes wrong.
 
If anyone thinks that this achine can "monitor" a patient in any signifcant way they really do not understand anesthesia at all. If agent relaxation and narcotics are the issues anyone is really concerned about they are no more a stool sitter who NEEDS to replaced, badly.
 
Actually, DARPA has developed a molecule which inhibits pain but doesn't touch any other vital function. I posted the link for it a few months ago, but now it seems to have been taken off the DARPA website.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5348210&highlight=darpa#post5348210



Planktonmd said:
No it won't.
Think about it as if you are going to write a computer program that can replace the human anesthesia provider:
This software they are using is only looking at 3 variables and making decisions accordingly to control 2 or 3 different drips.
The human operator looks at many more variables including things that are very difficult to translate for a computer (like surgeon's specific style and speed for example), then the human provider can integrate this huge amount of data and make choices that are way more sophisticated than adjusting 3 infusions.
It might be possible sometime in the very distant future but that would be a time when we would have achieved such advanced computers that the surgery itself and all other aspects of health care will be completely computerized.
This will be a time when the patient will be taken to an OR where no humans are present and the surgery might not even require an incision.
Actually they might not need anesthesia anymore because we would have discovered the perfect anesthetic which is one drug that can eliminate all painful sensations without interfering with any vital function and it can be given as a pill just 5 minutes before surgery.
Click to expand...
 
Coastie said:
Actually, DARPA has developed a molecule which inhibits pain but doesn't touch any other vital function. I posted the link for it a few months ago, but now it seems to have been taken off the DARPA website.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5348210&highlight=darpa#post5348210
Click to expand...

There is no doubt in my mind that this medication: "the perfect anesthetic" will be invented one day and it will be the end of surgical anesthesia as we know it today.
I just hope this will happen after I retire 🙂
 
Planktonmd said:
There is no doubt in my mind that this medication: "the perfect anesthetic" will be invented one day and it will be the end of surgical anesthesia as we know it today.
I just hope this will happen after I retire 🙂
Click to expand...

The day will come. We'll go to ICU heaven or perhaps become ER attendings.
 
Ohhh buddy... a lot to learn - no ofense..Where did you get this stuff - "anesthesia provider"??? Are you aware of - "internal medicine provider"?? Or - "dermatology provider"? Are you a a nurse wannabe a doctor? Did you notice that this forum is for doctors? if you are a student - you are a greenhorn.
 
2win said:
Ohhh buddy... a lot to learn - no ofense..Where did you get this stuff - "anesthesia provider"??? Are you aware of - "internal medicine provider"?? Or - "dermatology provider"? Are you a a nurse wannabe a doctor? Did you notice that this forum is for doctors? if you are a student - you are a greenhorn.
Click to expand...
Buddy,
I think YOU have a lot to learn:
Where have you been in the past 30 years or so?
What do you want to call the person sitting in the OR monitoring the patient?
Actually why is it offensive to you if we call anybody "anesthesia provider"?
Anesthesiologists are physicians that specialize in perioperative medicine, being anesthesia providers is only part of our job description.
There are other professionals that can sit in the OR and provide anesthesia as well, you can't deny their existence.
This attitude of hiding your head in the sand or somewhere else will not make you stronger politically, it only makes you look like an idiot.
 
Planktonmd said:
Buddy,
I think YOU have a lot to learn:
Where have you been in the past 30 years or so?
What do you want to call the person sitting in the OR monitoring the patient?
Actually why is it offensive to you if we call anybody "anesthesia provider"?
Anesthesiologists are physicians that specialize in perioperative medicine, being anesthesia providers is only part of our job description.
There are other professionals that can sit in the OR and provide anesthesia as well, you can't deny their existence.
This attitude of hiding your head in the sand or somewhere else will not make you stronger politically, it only makes you look like an idiot.
Click to expand...
I will answer you one by one:
- in the last 30 years I had the pleasure to be in US and Europe. I had also the satisfaction to see anesthesia in Europe without the mid level of "providers" as you like to call them.
- regarding the person monitoring the patient - "buddy" maybe this is what you do , I do medicine. You maybe remember that - giving drugs, reading TEE and PAC. Do you believe that reading a TEE is monitoring? Or taking a decision to give a vasopressor is monitoring? Now I realize that you're a "provider"...
- regarding other "professionals" that can "sit" in OR - you know buddy - I don't "sit" in OR, I work and take decisions. Decisions based on my training in medical school, residency and every day learning. Do you "sit" a lot?
- I am not hiding my head in the sand - I take attitude. Write a letter to ASA and explain that you are not Doctor X - you're the "anesthesia provider" X. And again did you ever wonder why the RN-s in internal medicine are not called "Internal Medicine providers???" Think about.
 
<unzip>

"Are the pissers ready?"

"Fire!"
 
2win said:
I will answer you one by one:
- in the last 30 years I had the pleasure to be in US and Europe. I had also the satisfaction to see anesthesia in Europe without the mid level of "providers" as you like to call them.
- regarding the person monitoring the patient - "buddy" maybe this is what you do , I do medicine. You maybe remember that - giving drugs, reading TEE and PAC. Do you believe that reading a TEE is monitoring? Or taking a decision to give a vasopressor is monitoring? Now I realize that you're a "provider"...
- regarding other "professionals" that can "sit" in OR - you know buddy - I don't "sit" in OR, I work and take decisions. Decisions based on my training in medical school, residency and every day learning. Do you "sit" a lot?
- I am not hiding my head in the sand - I take attitude. Write a letter to ASA and explain that you are not Doctor X - you're the "anesthesia provider" X. And again did you ever wonder why the RN-s in internal medicine are not called "Internal Medicine providers???" Think about.
Click to expand...
Good luck in your upcoming revolution to change the world.
Keep us posted
Your arrogant and condescending remarks concerning CRNA's only help them because they can use your stupidity as an example to demonstrate how we victimize them.
If you stop your flight of ideas and aimless monologue and try to listen, you will realize that I did not say that we should be called anesthesia providers, but I rather used the term to describe the non physician anesthesia professionals.
Calling them subordinates or helpers as I noticed you doing is not going to make you look smarter nor is it going to improve your already distorted image.
Don't tell me about Europe, I practiced in Europe for many years and I know the system better than you, but this is not Europe!
You want Europe? Go there!
All I am saying: Live in reality and look around you, and If you want to play politics don't start by destroying any credibility you might have.
And one last advice: Make sure you are taking your pills because I can smell a sociopath in the making.
May the force be with you.
 
A lot of anger buddy....You are using this board to get more credibility? You practiced in Europe? No joke ? And you know the system better too...Regarding your basic sense of smelling - you make me have fun. What I believe about you - you are one of the "providers". Don't bother to answer any more. Have your moments of glory placing some IV-s...Feel good with your family - where you present yourself as a "doctor" not as an anesthesia provider. I'll post some more about the "providers" in medicine,,,
 
Ahhhh, another P.O.S. MD vs CRNA thread. I KNEW this was gonna happen. Shoulda capped it long ago.

There arent many things that get my panties in a wad, but this is one of them.

This useless political MD vs CRNA banter that becomes personal among users will not be tolerated in the public form.

Too much bad history here with this kinda stuff.

Take it to the CRNA portion of the sub forum.

jet eyes the internet router providing conduit for this thread through his virtual-thirty-ought-six......hundred-fifty yards....piece of cake......exhales.....

BOOM.
 
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