CS Major GPA for Med School

[deleted1023831]

Hi! I'm a sophomore at Berkeley studying Neurobiology and Computer Science. My goal is to pursue an MD/PhD and my interest is in brain imaging using CS. As of grades for this semester, I am at around a 3.65 because of a B+, B+, and B- in the 3 introductory CS courses at Berkeley (CS 61A, CS 61B, and CS 70 for those of you at Berkeley). I am doing really well in my pre-med reqs (got As in OChem I and II) but I am worried that CS will bring my GPA down and make me less competitive for MD/PhD programs (My dream school would be UCLA/Caltech or Stanford). Dropping CS will help my GPA, but I have just fallen in love with computer science...any advice? Also for MD/PhD specifically, do they look more at scores (GPA + MCAT) or at individual projects?

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[deleted1011020]

Hi! I'm a sophomore at Berkeley studying Neurobiology and Computer Science. My goal is to pursue an MD/PhD and my interest is in brain imaging using CS. As of grades for this semester, I am at around a 3.65 because of a B+, B+, and B- in the 3 introductory CS courses at Berkeley (CS 61A, CS 61B, and CS 70 for those of you at Berkeley). I am doing really well in my pre-med reqs (got As in OChem I and II) but I am worried that CS will bring my GPA down and make me less competitive for MD/PhD programs (My dream school would be UCLA/Caltech or Stanford). Dropping CS will help my GPA, but I have just fallen in love with computer science...any advice? Also for MD/PhD specifically, do they look more at scores (GPA + MCAT) or at individual projects?

Drop CS and study it in your free time through MOOCs, LeetCode, Coursera etc

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Hi! I'm a sophomore at Berkeley studying Neurobiology and Computer Science. My goal is to pursue an MD/PhD and my interest is in brain imaging using CS. As of grades for this semester, I am at around a 3.65 because of a B+, B+, and B- in the 3 introductory CS courses at Berkeley (CS 61A, CS 61B, and CS 70 for those of you at Berkeley). I am doing really well in my pre-med reqs (got As in OChem I and II) but I am worried that CS will bring my GPA down and make me less competitive for MD/PhD programs (My dream school would be UCLA/Caltech or Stanford). Dropping CS will help my GPA, but I have just fallen in love with computer science...any advice? Also for MD/PhD specifically, do they look more at scores (GPA + MCAT) or at individual projects?

Can you do CS minor instead of CS major? Other option is try to find computational neuroscience research, introductory courses should be neough.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

There are two GPAs in CS world, above 3.0 and below 3.0. Excelling in both your CS classes and in premed is hard and pretty much impossible at a rigorous school. Not having a cs major won't keep you out of a computational based MD/PhD but a bad GPA sure as **** will.

 

[deleted1023831]

Were you actually able to declare L&S CS with those grades in 61A/B/70? If you're EECS or you've already petitioned to declare CS then just stick with finishing the degree. CS upperdivs are graded more generously than MCB upperdivs and you can stick to taking easier courses like 188 or 160 to keep your GPA up. Finish the standard premed sequence while you're at it and take MCB-Neurobio courses if you have sufficient room in your schedule.

In the process of declaring currently! I am almost done with the premed requirements (just need biochem which I am taking next semester). Could you give me some more reccomendations on which CS upperdivs are easier and harder gpa-wise? Thanks!

 

[NileMasr21]

CS major, current MD/PhD applicant with an acceptance on hand, sGPA > cGPA. From my experiences with the application cycle, most of my interviewers have seen the CS background as a huge plus, even though my CS grades are slightly lower. It seemed that they were more concerned about my passion for CS along with sGPA and my individual research projects. n=1, but if you want more info feel free to DM

 

[Doctoscope]

I also went to Cal. I honestly think if you're serious about MD/PhD, I'd drop the CS major/minor altogether, and just focus on research, since the upper divs could pose a risk to your GPA.

Any meaningful work in a PhD program that involves CS will require CS 170 and 189. 170 is a pain in the ass to do well in, and 189 is infamously a disgusting beast of linear algebra/probability.

You'd also need to be proficient in Stat 140 stuff (ideally EECS 126) to be even able to do well in 189, and THAT class is also difficult. EECS 127 is also very recommended, which is a giant time sink and guess what, yet another potential GPA tanker.

If you found CS 70 to be difficult, then the 126/127/170/189 series could be very difficult as well, since they're essentially 70 on steroids.

P.S. did they add a neurobio major? I've never heard of it. Is it in CoE, or is it some MCB concentration?

 

[deleted1023831]

I also went to Cal. I honestly think if you're serious about MD/PhD, I'd drop the CS major/minor altogether, and just focus on research, since the upper divs could pose a risk to your GPA.

Any meaningful work in a PhD program that involves CS will require CS 170 and 189. 170 is a pain in the ass to do well in, and 189 is infamously a disgusting beast of linear algebra/probability.

You'd also need to be proficient in Stat 140 stuff (ideally EECS 126) to be even able to do well in 189, and THAT class is also difficult. EECS 127 is also very recommended, which is a giant time sink and guess what, yet another potential GPA tanker.

If you found CS 70 to be difficult, then the 126/127/170/189 series could be very difficult as well, since they're essentially 70 on steroids.

P.S. did they add a neurobio major? I've never heard of it. Is it in CoE, or is it some MCB concentration?

Thanks for the advice! I may consider doing a minor instead since I'd only need 3 more classes for that. I would probably take 100, 186, and something else if it was a minor instead of a major. Also, neurobiology is a concentration in MCB

 

[deleted1023831]

CS major, current MD/PhD applicant with an acceptance on hand, sGPA > cGPA. From my experiences with the application cycle, most of my interviewers have seen the CS background as a huge plus, even though my CS grades are slightly lower. It seemed that they were more concerned about my passion for CS along with sGPA and my individual research projects. n=1, but if you want more info feel free to DM

Thank You! I think I will DM more questions

 

[thespitfire]

Unpopular opinion. I was a CS major. I think the degree is worth the potentially lower GPA. The skillset and the critical thinking skills you will learn are SO!!! valuable and you WILL carry them with you no matter what career you choose. Learning to code online is NOT the same thing as learning CS. This is the one time in your life you’ll have access to the resources a university can provide that will make for the richest, most rewarding learning experience. I know getting into med school is the goal and I really don’t want to minimize the importance of that, but there’s more to education than just making sure you hit a certain number to pass an initial screen. Eventually in your career, you will have to demonstrate that you’re more than that number, which is where the skills and critical thinking you’ve learned will distinguish you from others. this has been resoundingly true in my personal experience, as a non-traditional applicant who worked for several years as a software engineer before applying to med school. Hope this helps.

 

[deleted1011020]

Unpopular opinion. I was a CS major. I think the degree is worth the potentially lower GPA. The skillset and the critical thinking skills you will learn are SO!!! valuable and you WILL carry them with you no matter what career you choose. Learning to code online is NOT the same thing as learning CS. This is the one time in your life you’ll have access to the resources a university can provide that will make for the richest, most rewarding learning experience. I know getting into med school is the goal and I really don’t want to minimize the importance of that, but there’s more to education than just making sure you hit a certain number to pass an initial screen. Eventually in your career, you will have to demonstrate that you’re more than that number, which is where the skills and critical thinking you’ve learned will distinguish you from others. this has been resoundingly true in my personal experience, as a non-traditional applicant who worked for several years as a software engineer before applying to med school. Hope this helps.

If you're a self-directed learner, I have to disagree. Maybe its my university, but I felt the classes were on par if not a bigger waste of time than learning through online courses.

 

[thespitfire]

If you're a self-directed learner, I have to disagree. Maybe its my university, but I felt the classes were on par if not a bigger waste of time than learning through online courses.

I'm referring to content, not just learning style. I'm also a self-directed learner.

 

[Doctoscope]

This definitely differs depending on your university. I've always considered myself more of a self learner but I couldn't imagine successfully teaching myself the material in certain math or theory heavy classes without the guidance of discussion TAs or the professor.

I went through Andrew Ng's ML course a couple of years prior to taking Intro to Machine Learning at Berkeley (CS189) thinking that it would help with my understanding of the material but it ended up not coming anywhere close in terms of rigor. The level of mathematical maturity needed to succeed in many of my in-person classes (like 189) was on a different level from anything I've found online through Coursera or any other MOOCs.

If your university's CS coursework happens to be more applied than theoretical then I would agree that there are plenty of resources online that could teach you similar material. In OP's case, the coursework needed for research in a PhD program is highly theoretical and I believe that completing your degree in CS would be a lot more helpful in the long run than in MCB if you were to end up choosing between the two.

I heard the one taught by Sahai was a different beast of its own, even compared to "regular" 189 offerings.

 

[Ehegi]

Intersection between medicine and computer science is more important than ever. Precision medicine/machine learning/AI etc are all going to be major paradigm shifts in healthcare and those with computational backgrounds are going to be well-positioned to be leaders in the new era. If you have a vision of what you'd like to do in your future and having the coding skills/foundation knowledge is a part of that, I'd say go for it. I'd try very hard to make sure that the GPA doesn't slip below "thresholds" that may prevent you from getting interviews. However, after your foot is through the door, having the additional skillset and a vision of how you'd like to use your abilities makes for a far more interesting conversation during interview. The most important characteristic in looking at individuals early in their careers is whether or not they have a vision of where they'd like to go and whether their journey tells a story that makes sense. You are only on the first step! Good luck!

 

[HopeP]

This is what exactly I say to my elder S who is a junior in top 10 CS school with 3.9+ GPA but he doesn't want to be doctor. Younger one wants to be a Dr but has no interest in CS. Google AI is already better at detecting breast or some other form of cancer than radiologists.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

My S is planning to continue his computational research into medical school and beyond.

 

[Goro]

Hi! I'm a sophomore at Berkeley studying Neurobiology and Computer Science. My goal is to pursue an MD/PhD and my interest is in brain imaging using CS. As of grades for this semester, I am at around a 3.65 because of a B+, B+, and B- in the 3 introductory CS courses at Berkeley (CS 61A, CS 61B, and CS 70 for those of you at Berkeley). I am doing really well in my pre-med reqs (got As in OChem I and II) but I am worried that CS will bring my GPA down and make me less competitive for MD/PhD programs (My dream school would be UCLA/Caltech or Stanford). Dropping CS will help my GPA, but I have just fallen in love with computer science...any advice? Also for MD/PhD specifically, do they look more at scores (GPA + MCAT) or at individual projects?

If you want the MD/PhD, you need to do better.

They will look at everything, including research productivity.

 

[deleted1023831]

If you want the MD/PhD, you need to do better.

They will look at everything, including research productivity.

In terms of research experience, I am currently an intern in a research lab at UCSF and have been for the past year, and recently got a job at DeepScribe, a company that is applying AI for charting. Also, how important are publications? Does authorship (first author, second author, third author) matter? Also, what would you say is a competitive cGPA and sGPA for md/phd programs?

 

[feather125]

I had very similar goals and a similar choice to make.

I applied to MD/PhD programs this year as well and did fairly well in the application process. I chose to not major in CS but to just take a classes whenever I could and work in computational biology labs. My CS background was a huge plus mentioned by almost every interviewer I spoke to, and even though it wasn't my major, all my PIs were coders and could speak to my coding ability. It didn't seem to matter if I wasn't a CS major when applying and no one brought up my choice in major.

The major I did choose was heavy on math and chemistry (my strengths) and computer science courses were "recommended" for my major.

That all being said, my GPA and MCAT were above average for MD/PhD programs. But your undergrad school is ranked higher than mine and that works in your favor as well.

If you have more questions DM me

 

[CrayonShinChan]

I agree with some of the advice given above. I graduated from Berkeley in chemistry and will take 2 gap years to work in a computational lab. My interest is also heavily theoretical and computational with application in medicine, and I had thought about doing a EECS minor but decided against it because of the gpa. Berkeley is a tough school, there are so many gpa killer classes (including the biochem one you are about to take next semester, I recommend against taking MCB 110 or 102... unless you are very confident about your memorization skills).

I decided to gain research skills in the computational area and take a few courses that are useful but not gpa killers (data 100 e.g.), because in this way I get to have more experience in research/publications and less brutal murder of gpa from the madness of CS61B and still learn the same skills in the end. Having computational skills is very important in the future, but MD/PhD cares about stats first before anything else.

My advice for you right now is to either declare a CS minor or change to cog sci or data science (something with less crazy upper div), because many of the MCB upper divs are filled with pre-meds and the curves are hard to beat and you have to watch out for them. For UCLA-caltech and stanford, I think you need to at least raise your gpa to be 3.85+ to be competitive.

 

[deleted1023831]

I agree with some of the advice given above. I graduated from Berkeley in chemistry and will take 2 gap years to work in a computational lab. My interest is also heavily theoretical and computational with application in medicine, and I had thought about doing a EECS minor but decided against it because of the gpa. Berkeley is a tough school, there are so many gpa killer classes (including the biochem one you are about to take next semester, I recommend against taking MCB 110 or 102... unless you are very confident about your memorization skills).

I decided to gain research skills in the computational area and take a few courses that are useful but not gpa killers (data 100 e.g.), because in this way I get to have more experience in research/publications and less brutal murder of gpa from the madness of CS61B and still learn the same skills in the end. Having computational skills is very important in the future, but MD/PhD cares about stats first before anything else.

My advice for you right now is to either declare a CS minor or change to cog sci or data science (something with less crazy upper div), because many of the MCB upper divs are filled with pre-meds and the curves are hard to beat and you have to watch out for them. For UCLA-caltech and stanford, I think you need to at least raise your gpa to be 3.85+ to be competitive.

Oh no I have to take MCB 102 to fulfill my biochem requirement for the neurobiology MCB emphasis...any advice? On the plus side though, I am taking data 100 next semester for my CS upper division course requirements which isn't necessarily a GPA killer...

 

[deleted1023831]

I had very similar goals and a similar choice to make.

I applied to MD/PhD programs this year as well and did fairly well in the application process. I chose to not major in CS but to just take a classes whenever I could and work in computational biology labs. My CS background was a huge plus mentioned by almost every interviewer I spoke to, and even though it wasn't my major, all my PIs were coders and could speak to my coding ability. It didn't seem to matter if I wasn't a CS major when applying and no one brought up my choice in major.

The major I did choose was heavy on math and chemistry (my strengths) and computer science courses were "recommended" for my major.

That all being said, my GPA and MCAT were above average for MD/PhD programs. But your undergrad school is ranked higher than mine and that works in your favor as well.

If you have more questions DM me

Thanks, will DM with more questions

 

[deleted1011020]

In terms of research experience, I am currently an intern in a research lab at UCSF and have been for the past year, and recently got a job at DeepScribe, a company that is applying AI for charting. Also, how important are publications? Does authorship (first author, second author, third author) matter? Also, what would you say is a competitive cGPA and sGPA for md/phd programs?

very very interesting work being done at DeepScribe. Mind if I PM you with some questions?

 

[deleted1023831]

very very interesting work being done at DeepScribe. Mind if I PM you with some questions?

Sure! But I just recently got the job so probably won't be able to answer much

 

[EvoMed]

you rock, this skill set will be critical for shaping the future of medicine. You are at one of the top engineering schools in the world, it would strike me as shortsighted to forego the opportunity to learn theory and practice in the upper level coursework there.

If you keep your GPA where it is and take care of business on the MCAT you will be okay. Major concern is making sure that you get biomedical research experience that is relevant enough. I suspect that logging significant hours in a basic science lab (working towards pubs if possible) would be important. DeepScribe or other industry experience is a great addition but may not provide the core research experience that schools expect from a student prepared to embark on a thesis. I’d say keep on track for the CS major and make sure to develop yourself in lab setting.

Also btw worth noting that for MD PhD it’s really tough to set your expectations on one or two dream programs. To be realistic you need to be ready to shoot a broader net. Of course you can still set your sights on an ideal landing spot.

But then again, your the captain of your ship. Don’t listen too closely to what people blab about on web forums.

 

[CrayonShinChan]

Oh no I have to take MCB 102 to fulfill my biochem requirement for the neurobiology MCB emphasis...any advice? On the plus side though, I am taking data 100 next semester for my CS upper division course requirements which isn't necessarily a GPA killer...

MCB 102 is ok, it's just bio 1A on steroid, if you are good at cramming you should be fine. Try to avoid MCB 110 tho it's a different kind of steroid lol
And if you like ochem (since you said you did well on I am assuming 3A-B), then see if you can petition to substitute MCB 102 with Chem 135, it's much more ochem-based and less memorization, MD-PhD still acknowledges it as biochem course, and the grading for Chem 135 is more generous too.

 

[inode]

Here is what I did: Focused on premed/gpa as an undergrad and did CS in my research projects and took a few useful CS courses (but didn't major in it), and then pursued a master's degree in CS.

And, even though I was a self-taught programmer, the classroom experience was invaluable to my learning and any CS online courses I took (e.g. Coursera) didn't compare to actual CS courses.

Basically: try to think of other options on how you can maximize your CS education while minimizing the hit to your gpa. Because I wouldn't sacrifice my GPA nor do I think it's worth it to sacrifice a valuable CS education.

Also, whoever said "For UCLA-caltech and stanford, I think you need to at least raise your gpa to be 3.85+ to be competitive.", that is simply not true and is factually incorrect. I interviewed at both places (as did many of my friends), and many of us (including myself) didn't have a 3.85+. I am at one of those places now fyi.

 

[LatentStudying]

If you're struggling with CS in the core classes, that's a warning sign that you're not up to snuff with proof based thinking. And if you want to do research, you're better off focusing on a Math+CS background as that will make you more competitive for getting your name on a pub. To put it in perspective, we've essentially had to filter out undergrad emails since they're clogging our inboxes. We now (sadly) reject people who don't have at least one 1st/2nd author top tier conference submission. This is for just a PhD program, but I believe the standard for CS research is pretty consistent across top labs/departments.

If you're interested in a MD/PhD (CS), pm me and I can direct you to a friend who recently started a cross department AI/ML lab (CS+med school) so he isn't 'need 2 NeurIPS/ICML/etc publications during undergrad' crazy competitive yet if you'd like.

Lastly, don't bother with Coursera/other stuff. It's so surface level that it's useless. MIT opencourseware has full MIT lectures/notes and provides a suitable grounding for real ML research.

 

[deleted496821]

I will take the contrarian position here. You should drop your Neurobiology major and really appeal/fight to be able to declare the CS major at Berkeley. No admission committee member will be super excited about yet-another premed with a Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience, Neurobiology, etc major with a 3.8-4.0. There are thousands of applicants like that. What really makes one stand-out is the major in Math, CS, EE, EECS, Physica, etc. These majors are objectively more difficult, as you have personally experienced, and most reasonable admission committee members understand that a 3.3 in CS, especially at Berkeley, is more impressive than a 4.0 in Biology from any school in the U.S.

I got an MD, a Masters in Data Science from Berkeley, and am getting a PhD in BME with MS in CS right now. My research is in deep learning to model hippocampal spike patterns. I agree with those that mentioned earlier that CS is not about coding. It is about theory. I have been coding for years, but the theory is invaluable.

Medicine is in for major change in the next 20 years. Having the formal CS background from Berkeley will buffer you from these largely negative changes.

 

[deleted1023831]

you rock, this skill set will be critical for shaping the future of medicine. You are at one of the top engineering schools in the world, it would strike me as shortsighted to forego the opportunity to learn theory and practice in the upper level coursework there.

If you keep your GPA where it is and take care of business on the MCAT you will be okay. Major concern is making sure that you get biomedical research experience that is relevant enough. I suspect that logging significant hours in a basic science lab (working towards pubs if possible) would be important. DeepScribe or other industry experience is a great addition but may not provide the core research experience that schools expect from a student prepared to embark on a thesis. I’d say keep on track for the CS major and make sure to develop yourself in lab setting.

Also btw worth noting that for MD PhD it’s really tough to set your expectations on one or two dream programs. To be realistic you need to be ready to shoot a broader net. Of course you can still set your sights on an ideal landing spot.

But then again, your the captain of your ship. Don’t listen too closely to what people blab about on web forums.

Thanks for the advice! I would be fine going anywhere for md/phd honestly but would prefer to stay in California, locationwise. I am also looking at UCSF and many other mostly California schools and will probably start looking at schools outside of California!

 

[inode]

Thanks for the advice! I would be fine going anywhere for md/phd honestly but would prefer to stay in California, locationwise. I am also looking at UCSF and many other mostly California schools and will probably start looking at schools outside of California!

California has lots of great options! UCLA, Stanford, UCSD, UCSF, UC Irvine, USC, and the new KPSOM are all worth checking out. I definitely recommend checking out the multi-institutional programs (e.g. a lot are affiliated with Caltech; UCSD is affiliated with Salk/Scripps/etc.).

That said, certainly lots of great options on east coast too. Harvard is affiliated with MIT and Pitt is affiliated with CMU in terms of your computer science interests, and other schools (e.g. UPenn, NYU, Columbia, etc.) have great CS departments too.

 

[deleted1023831]

If you're struggling with CS in the core classes, that's a warning sign that you're not up to snuff with proof based thinking. And if you want to do research, you're better off focusing on a Math+CS background as that will make you more competitive for getting your name on a pub. To put it in perspective, we've essentially had to filter out undergrad emails since they're clogging our inboxes. We now (sadly) reject people who don't have at least one 1st/2nd author top tier conference submission. This is for just a PhD program, but I believe the standard for CS research is pretty consistent across top labs/departments.

If you're interested in a MD/PhD (CS), pm me and I can direct you to a friend who recently started a cross department AI/ML lab (CS+med school) so he isn't 'need 2 NeurIPS/ICML/etc publications during undergrad' crazy competitive yet if you'd like.

Lastly, don't bother with Coursera/other stuff. It's so surface level that it's useless. MIT opencourseware has full MIT lectures/notes and provides a suitable grounding for real ML research.

Thanks for the advice, will pm you with more questions

 

[CaliforniaAsian]

California has lots of great options! UCLA, Stanford, UCSD, UCSF, UC Irvine, USC, and the new KPSOM are all worth checking out. I definitely recommend checking out the multi-institutional programs (e.g. a lot are affiliated with Caltech; UCSD is affiliated with Salk/Scripps/etc.).

That said, certainly lots of great options on east coast too. Harvard is affiliated with MIT and Pitt is affiliated with CMU in terms of your computer science interests, and other schools (e.g. UPenn, NYU, Columbia, etc.) have great CS departments too.

I just want to caution that KPSOM is high risk low return. There is only one MD-PhD spot for the collaboration with Caltech. USC is slightly better, with about 3-4 spots.

 

[inode]

I just want to caution that KPSOM is high risk low return. There is only one MD-PhD spot for the collaboration with Caltech. USC is slightly better, with about 3-4 spots.

You are correct.
Additionally, UCLA only has around two spots for the Caltech collaboration (although most people applying to that program wish to do their PhD at UCLA because UCLA is such a strong research institution in its own right and has more faculty options than Caltech).

UCLA-Caltech, Stanford, and UCSD were my three personal favorites among the California schools (having interviewed at all 3 places last cycle). All have wonderful, world-class faculty if you want to integrate biology and computer science.

 

[deleted1023831]

I will take the contrarian position here. You should drop your Neurobiology major and really appeal/fight to be able to declare the CS major at Berkeley. No admission committee member will be super excited about yet-another premed with a Biology, Biochemistry, Neuroscience, Neurobiology, etc major with a 3.8-4.0. There are thousands of applicants like that. What really makes one stand-out is the major in Math, CS, EE, EECS, Physica, etc. These majors are objectively more difficult, as you have personally experienced, and most reasonable admission committee members understand that a 3.3 in CS, especially at Berkeley, is more impressive than a 4.0 in Biology from any school in the U.S.

I got an MD, a Masters in Data Science from Berkeley, and am getting a PhD in BME with MS in CS right now. My research is in deep learning to model hippocampal spike patterns. I agree with those that mentioned earlier that CS is not about coding. It is about theory. I have been coding for years, but the theory is invaluable.

Medicine is in for major change in the next 20 years. Having the formal CS background from Berkeley will buffer you from these largely negative changes.

Thank You for the advice! I am thinking of an MD/PhD and am wondering about how the process for PhD applications is generally, since I am unfamiliar with the application process?