CSPP SD vs. Antioch SB

[micjman]

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Hello guys, I was wondering if anyone had any insight about going to Antioch Santa Barbara Psy.D program or Psy.D at CSPP San Diego. I am trying to decide between the two programs. Antioch in SB. is about 3 years old and I haven't heard much about it, they are awaiting APA accreditation , but it should be done by october after there first class graduates- as members of the campus are former APA site evaluators, and certainly will be accredited by time I would graduate in the next 4+ years.

My thoughts were..
CSPP SD. was big with about 42 Psy.d per incoming class and I'd guess about 25-35 PH.d I was told out of about 200+ applicants for each. so about a 20% acceptance rate

Antioch SB is small with about 15 per class and U/k number of applicants. Anyone have a guess on acceptance rates here?

I really liked CSPP being the oldest pro. school around, but I have heard mixed things on here about that program.

Antioch seemed more open to new idea and not as ridged, and more one on one with class sizes around 6 instead of 20, but perhaps less well known and thus less respected? Also a smaller course catalog and almost no certificate programs (I.E. Cspp biofeedback ect. ). The school is basically a large office building, so CSPP definitely had more resources (soccer field I.M sports,dorms, large library)
You really got the feeling that everyone knew everyone at Antioch SB, and Less so at CSPP.

Interviews at CSPP SD. consisted of about 40 people per interview day all gathered in room and then being called on to interview alne with a professor and then student in the program- + tour and such from start to finish about 3hours with two 20-30 min interviews during
Interviews at Antioch SB were group panel format - 3 students get interviewed by a board of professors and then are asked questions and its up to you to speak up and answer questions, follow by a Q/A lasts about 1.5 Hours, I was told they take about 50% of the people they interview ... so its you or the person next to you if you want to think odds wise.
Cost wise.... CSPP is going to set you back $100,000 if you play your cards right, and maybe a little less with merit scholarships-Alumni references discounts... Work study
Antioch is about $90,000 and not as much opportunity for Scholarship, Work-study available...
The difference in cost though is really even smaller when you think of housing costs in SB and Food which is ++ more expensive.

Any thoughts would be appreciated - Which school is better and why? Or acceptance rates, ect.?
I have heard good things about Antioch New England- are they similar? Let me know what you guys think, I got about two weeks to decide
-Thanks

 

[micjman]

Anyone?

 

[slennox]

interesting...

 

[Tyness]

I would stick with the program that has been around longer.

 

[micjman]

-Jon snow"is there an option c?"
-No, not for grad school, option c would be work and try next year, but this seems like such a waste after going to these interviews an applying and such. I figure if i don't like it I'll apply other places in a year, or stay until masters.
I think I would rather go to one or other though , unless you have some solid reason as to why not either? I have also considered switch from psy.d to Ph.d at CSPP after year one as many of the classes overlap in year one- if i think it is a better program?? Antioch seems like such a dark horse though, I don't think there has been more than two sentences written about the Santa Barbara program, so I am most curious about that program, with CSPP either you like it and hate the loans or you hate it and hate the loans, thats seems to to be what it boils down to. Professional schools are just a big toss up and they seem to be what you make of it, where as traditional schools-yea you have less debt, but you are doing other peoples work for longer, and after talking to grad students it seems like a no end in sight prospect like 6 or 7+ years, and then you go on and make less as a researcher or what not. The Psy.d Just seemed to get to the point, high cost in the short term, but maybe not the long term.
Hope that answers your question Jon.

 

[micjman]

After doing more research Antioch SB takes accepts about 9 out of about 40 apps for its program so..... they take about 23% of apps... About the same as CSPP San Diego...
I sure would appreciate anyones thoughts about either of the two programs,
I mean would you guys rather be a big fish in a class of 10 or 1 in 45 at cspp?
Help!
PS> If anyone has any questions about CSPP's SD or Antioch's SB program I've read a ton about both just let me know what ya need to know and I'd be happy to help you figure it out.

 

[Tyness]

It is very clear that there are strong opinions on professional schools and that is fine and there are legitimate reasons that do exist. However just because it is not right for many does not mean it does not fit well for some as well. The small class size is a plus, but I would not want to attend a school that is waiting on accreditation.

 

[micjman]

What upsets me about these forms is how biased they seem to be, you don't need to go to big name school to be helpful to your community. I am going to professional school, and I get "you haven't done enough research on schools from the Jon snows." The facts of the matter is that I have done research on a bunch of schools, and I have chosen the school I did for particular reasons. I have personally talked to professors about areas that interest me, also with speaking with clinical psychologist about the best path,the truth is even old Ph.d psychologists realizes the times are a changing. Traditional Boulder schools are what I'm coming from, and I freely chose to go to professional school, not because I was forced to by any means, but because I wanted the personal attention, to be the focus and not to work for others with the big school politics. Some people are just going to have to accept that the Ph.D in clinical psychology is a slowly dying field with more and more people choosing the Psy.d's. I think it is odd how some Ph.d students get this attitude about somehow being in a classier degree, as if they are brain surgeons or something. And lets not forget they hand out Ph.d's in communications, to elementary school principles, in Sports management, Beatles history specialists, fashion designers, Drama, oh and I think even circus arts at some schools...... So, here is a shout out on this forum to the underdog Psy.d, you know the degree with more and more people choosing it? The one that focuses on work with people and not SPSS? the one that distinguishes as a doctor in psychology and not philosophy. I am not trying to bash every Ph. d as they seem to be doing to Psy.ds on this forum, but just to say you are as good as you make yourself, just find a degree that lets you do what you want to do, and for me its the Psy.d. Good luck to all, and if you were accepted at a Ph.d or Psy.d program congrats, don't let the snoods keep you down about yourself. Anyone seeking a doctorate deserves respect, just think if everyone valued education as much as us.
-M

 

[psychmama]

Micjman- Don't let it get to you. I'm in a PsyD program and am a big fan of the model for those of us who are more clinically-minded. After 5 years and as I get ready for internship, I think that I'm pretty good at what I do. I feel I've been well-trained in therapy and assessment, and am a literate consumer of psychology research. I have found my work to be challenging and rewarding. That's what I wanted out of my education, and that's what I've gotten. I have no regrets.

There is a contingent on these boards that insist the PsyD is an inferior degree. I actually find they are a minority, albeit a highly vocal one. I've given up trying to convince them -- they will never be persuaded. I say figure out what your career goals are, then find the program that is the best fit for you. No doctoral option is perfect, and one size does not fit all.😉 The PsyD may not be for everyone, but it's been great for me and many others.

 

[socialcog]

What upsets me about these forms is how biased they seem to be, you don't need to go to big name school to be helpful to your community. I am going to professional school, and I get "you haven't done enough research on schools from the Jon snows." The facts of the matter is that I have done research on a bunch of schools, and I have chosen the school I did for particular reasons. I have personally talked to professors about areas that interest me, also with speaking with clinical psychologist about the best path,the truth is even old Ph.d psychologists realizes the times are a changing. Traditional Boulder schools are what I'm coming from, and I freely chose to go to professional school, not because I was forced to by any means, but because I wanted the personal attention, to be the focus and not to work for others with the big school politics. Some people are just going to have to accept that the Ph.D in clinical psychology is a slowly dying field with more and more people choosing the Psy.d's. I think it is odd how some Ph.d students get this attitude about somehow being in a classier degree, as if they are brain surgeons or something. And lets not forget they hand out Ph.d's in communications, to elementary school principles, in Sports management, Beatles history specialists, fashion designers, Drama, oh and I think even circus arts at some schools...... So, here is a shout out on this forum to the underdog Psy.d, you know the degree with more and more people choosing it? The one that focuses on work with people and not SPSS? the one that distinguishes as a doctor in psychology and not philosophy. I am not trying to bash every Ph. d as they seem to be doing to Psy.ds on this forum, but just to say you are as good as you make yourself, just find a degree that lets you do what you want to do, and for me its the Psy.d. Good luck to all, and if you were accepted at a Ph.d or Psy.d program congrats, don't let the snoods keep you down about yourself. Anyone seeking a doctorate deserves respect, just think if everyone valued education as much as us.
-M

I was wincing as I read your post.

I think the main arguments against the professional schools historically conveyed in these forums are the all-in cost of these institutions-- and the many ripple effects that come with that; AND the quality of training of it's students--and the many ripple effects that come with that. Both are valid and worth noting for those interested in pursuing a degree from a professional school. The debt can be substantial which calls into question the cost/benefit of such an endeavor. The other issue underscores the problem of oversaturation of possibly poorly trained psychologists in the fieild, which needless to say, hurts all of us.

I don't always agree with Jon Snow's opinions about professional schools, but he consistently argues his point dispassionately and cogently, unlike your post. Your post was charged and, I fear, emblematic of the kind of response you'd expect from one attending a professional school--(what triggered my wincing). Just because you didn't get the response you wanted doesn't mean there wasn't a worthwhile response.

I will be attending a professional school come Fall for a PhD, not a PsyD. I have real concerns about my experience while there, many of them have been stated in these forums, but I'm hopeful I'll be able to create my own opportunities and circumvent any obstacles in my way. I am less interested in defending professional schools. I am more interested in defending the work I put out, because that work will need to speak to my unique strengths and value added for internships and post-docs.

These forums that been very useful for me the past 2 years. I encourage you to use them as a resource and to make useful contributions moving forward.

 

[psychmama]

TO Socialcog,

While I agree that his post was charged, I can empathize with why. The OP only lost composure after a series of responses that were tinged with derision and condescension. No wonder he/she responded defensively. I appreciate the diversity of viewpoints on these boards, but there are ways to make your point that are respectful to others. I think this is an obligation we all share, don't you?

 

[socialcog]

TO Socialcog,

While I agree that his post was charged, I can empathize with why. The OP only lost composure after a series of responses that were tinged with derision and condescension. No wonder he/she responded defensively. I appreciate the diversity of viewpoints on these boards, but there are ways to make your point that are respectful to others. I think this is an obligation we all share, don't you?

Indeed, I do. 🙂

 

[JockNerd]

I don't read how JS' post was disrespectful. If person X wants to read "I disagree with you" as a personal attack, I think that's mostly person X's problem.

 

[psychmama]

I think saying "This suggests to me that you need to do more research on programs" could be construed as a bit condescending. I would certainly take it that way, because it assumes the OP didn't already do his/her homework and have some good reasons for going the professional school route. I do appreciate Jon Snow's points -- he's got some good arguments. I just disagree with the manner in which he (and some others here) present them at times.

I know not everyone will agree with me on this, but it is my $.02 (and probably worth exactly that...).

 

[socialcog]

Go to a good PsyD program that supports you and isn't looking for greenbacks ...,... and that has some regard for the field as a whole.

ie: Funded programs = good. Non-funded programs = bad. I'm making a summation from what I've gleaned from previous posts from you on the matter. Calling a spade a spade. Apologies if I'm out of line.

Are there shades of gray for you on this issue, JS? I'm thinking no.

 

[micjman]

Thanks everyone for all of the feedback especially Psychamma for your supportive comments. I have talked with many Psy.D as of late and the vast majority seem perfectly happy. I would be interested to know if socialcog or jon snow ever attended a professional school? I think their responses would hold more relevance to me if they had tried the programs first hand. If so, could either of you tell me what experiences changed your mind to Ph.d?
Also, if anyone would like to PM me and talk about CSPP or Antioch, I would be interested in speaking with you. One of the things I am doing now is calling local schools (to both professional schools) to find out their local reputations. For example if you were interested in teaching at a state or J.C. post- masters, you'd want to talk to the psc. departments at the nearby schools about your prospects. In addition, to those of you who apply to Psy.d's you will hear a lot on here about the high costs, which I think is the most valid argument against Psy.d schools. A piece of advice on this topic is to call the financial aid directors at your prospective schools, run through all the numbers with them, and ask about special grants or merit scholarships TA ships, ect. Then, remember these schools want you and so make sure you are happy with their offer. Haggle with them if you must, inform them of other offers from other programs and ask them if they will match it. Make sure you have a plan, look to see if they will accept transfer work and If they have summer sessions, all of this will lower your costs.. Some schools will accept other graduate work from regionally accredited programs... So one way to save a bit of money is to take these course at state schools (over summers.. OR ..even from some of the better online schools (note accreditation -Regional is a must). I wouldn't recommend this for key classes, more for the elective types (and only if you must, as online schools are very hit and miss with less hits). Additionally, you may want to see if you can take additional units at the school during your quarter/semester. Cost is a major factor and you may have to push yourself extra to stay on top of it.... Obviously, I agree with Jon snow and others about the high costs, but their are ways to lower them significantly if you do your homework. I would say some of these ideas I had also apply to Ph.d programs. Look into work study options, try to do relevant work where possible (I.e don't work the food court, work in a lab) if you have any free time... But also remember because of the cost and time strain of these program working hours are often shot to hell unless you somehow are a part time student. Next, see if the work actually pays... I.E if you could have taken one or two more classes instead of working and thus would graduate faster, it might not be worth it at all.
If you have a one year lease, then you better stick around and find some course work to do over breaks or work, you don't want rent to be an additional dead weight.
Alrighty
-M

 

[Tyness]

Also, if anyone would like to PM me and talk about CSPP or Antioch, I would be interested in speaking with you. One of the things I am doing now is calling local schools (to both professional schools) to find out their local reputations. For example if you were interested in teaching at a state or J.C. post- masters, you'd want to talk to the psc. departments at the nearby schools about your prospects.
-M

I would be interested in what you find out.

 

[Tyness]

I personally think happiness is everything. I care less about money and more about happiness.

 

[Ollie123]

I don't think Jon's point was about money, or anything of that nature.

I think the point is that being "happy" is not the same as getting a good education. OBVIOUSLY, being happy is important for an individual...it would be absurd for anyone calling themselves a psychologist to think otherwise. I think part of the problem is that a school's mission is not to make you happy, its to make sure you are well trained.

Many schools seem to blur those lines...and I get a similar attitude from many posters here. School may/will involve things you don't enjoy. The goal is not to get a degree that lets you do what you want. That sounds incredibly self-centered to me. The goal is to get a degree that provides good training so you are qualified to do the things you want. What matters is that the training makes you a better psychologist. I don't enjoy many aspects of clinical work (though it IS growing on me), but I'm doing them because it will make me a better scientist. Now obviously there needs to be a balance here. We cannot spend 30 years working 100 hours a week to learn everything there is to know about psychology (and that still probably wouldn't be enough!). I just think some schools, and some individuals, seem perfectly happy to push that bar lower and lower. I'm not comfortable with that.

 

[micjman]

Obviously there are difference of opinion on how much happiness and Rigor should be in a program, obviously in an ideal world everyone would be happy and getting well educated. I think saying psy.d 'lower the bar' maybe a bit of an over generalization. I am sure you all know that their are programs such as Walden U. and the like that Offer regionally accredited Ph.Ds, even some that are 90% online..... now tell me how that isn't lower the bar more than a Psy.d from an APA professional school? I mean if you want to argue Psy.d from non funded schools are inferior to Ph.D from funded schools, I disagree but I can understand why some would feel that way, however, lets not go stereotyping an entire degree there are plenty of goods and bad in both. So perhaps us Vails and you boulders can just agree to disagree and and leave it at that. 👍

PS. Tyress I will get back when I hear more.
In addition I feel there should be a better ratings system for professional programs out there, and I know i'm not the only one who feels this way, anyone have a good psy.d ratings/rankings website?

 

[Ollie123]

I just said schools, I didn't draw any distinction between PhD and PsyD. I absolutely agree that there are plenty of PhD programs with similar problems, Walden is just the tip of the iceberg. Offered the choice, I would certainly pick many places I don't highly respect over Walden. However, "Hey, it could be worse" isn't exactly where I'd like to set the bar😉 Boulder vs. Vail is not even an issue in my mind. The Vail model isn't for me, but that doesn't mean I don't think it should exist. Rutgers is the classic example...I don't think there is anyone here who is against the Rutgers PsyD program. They have a really solid faculty, a wealth of opportunity, clinically-focused training, but a strong scientific basis, they don't throw open the doors to anyone willing to pay their tuition prices, etc. Its a degree to be proud of.

I won't speak for Jon and others, but what I'm against is what I see as schools abusing the Vail model to lower the standards of the profession and make money. Like it or not, its a more widespread problem among the PsyD degree which is why the distinction is often blurred, but its the schools that are responsible for this, not the degree. Heck, a huge portion of the schools at fault have PhD programs as well. Its not like I have a huge amount of respect for the Argosy PhD program. Honestly, I don't entirely understand why it exists...neither degree is a "research degree", and I rarely ever see papers by Argosy folks. I don't care what degree it is, any school that accepts nearly everyone who applies, doesn't match a huge portion of them, routinely has poor licensing exam scores, and does not produce any notable research just does not have much going for it in my eyes. Maybe that makes me "elitist", but I always thought getting the highest level of degree one can get was supposed to be elite by its very nature. I think we've carried our self-esteem mantra too far, and I think its one of the major reasons the entire US educational system is kind of a sinking ship at this point.

 

[Tyness]

I agree with many problems of the professional schools. I think it is awesome to get into a funded program. However you can not turn back the clock and tell yourself things you now know that you wish you would have known during your undergrad to make you a candidate for a great funded or well respected unfunded program.
I have decided to attend a professional school that is often talked about negatively on here, and many of the comments I agree with or understand. However I am in their newer program that only accepts 25 people so I hope I am going to get a different experience.