culture of OMFS

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sosnoncat

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Hello,

I am a current noncat admittedly struggling with the particular role I am in, but had a thought today.
I was wondering what the point of OMFS culture is. How is it supposed to benefit the resident? Everyone who has been through it says you need a thick skin, or this is how it is we've all had to do it, but I genuinely don't understand what the value of having a thick skin is after graduating. Does it make you a better, more capable surgeon? I have seen attendings make fun of crying patients, asleep patients, fat patients, residents. The culture just seems like it makes everyone jaded and compassionless. What am I missing?
 
Sounds like a lack of professionalism at that program. Not all programs are like that. My attendings did not do that. Try not to become jaded or compassionless. Your patients will really appreciate your kindness.
 
Hello,

I am a current noncat admittedly struggling with the particular role I am in, but had a thought today.
I was wondering what the point of OMFS culture is. How is it supposed to benefit the resident? Everyone who has been through it says you need a thick skin, or this is how it is we've all had to do it, but I genuinely don't understand what the value of having a thick skin is after graduating. Does it make you a better, more capable surgeon? I have seen attendings make fun of crying patients, asleep patients, fat patients, residents. The culture just seems like it makes everyone jaded and compassionless. What am I missing?
Millions of dollars changes people often not for the better.
 
Surgery is a challenging field and everybody has complications. Having “thick skin” or the ability to not be easy rattle is crucial. The old school way works in that sense but the downside is it often leaves you jaded and compassionless especially for your patient.

So the trick is to help resident develop a thick chin without making them into monster.

Yesterday I got called out for not being read up on a case as I should have been. I was also on hour 36. Was it fair? No but he was right and he was very respectful about it. The gig is hard and you have to be able to do hard things.
 
lol from my experiences and referrals OMFS is challenging exo and 3rd molar cases. I NEVER EVER refer implants to OMS because I always have restorative issues. my latest one was an anterior that was placed so facially that it could not be restored with a screw-retained and required a cement-retained. Again, in my experience OMS treat implants as a surgical procedure and not a restorative procedure with a surgical component. I always refer to Perio (ESPECIALLY if it’s anterior if I don’t feel comfortable doing myself), or if it’s a tough case all around, I refer to prosth.
 
lol from my experiences and referrals OMFS is challenging exo and 3rd molar cases. I NEVER EVER refer implants to OMS because I always have restorative issues. my latest one was an anterior that was placed so facially that it could not be restored with a screw-retained and required a cement-retained. Again, in my experience OMS treat implants as a surgical procedure and not a restorative procedure with a surgical component. I always refer to Perio (ESPECIALLY if it’s anterior if I don’t feel comfortable doing myself), or if it’s a tough case all around, I refer to prosth.
Honestly, it’s disheartening to hear that previous surgeons have let you down. Fortunately, I believe things are changing. There's a growing emphasis amongst residents on placing implants that are not only functionally sound but also aesthetically ideal. The outdated mindset of "place the implant where the bone is" is quickly fading, and changing to a guided approach rooted in prior planning. I think this will be evident with the new generation of residents graduating from programs nowadays.

But just like any practitioner, we can also have bad cases and are not immune to complications 🤷‍♂️
 
Ignore the schmoob's post above. They are gaslighting.

For culture in OMS: That depends, how many families have you had to tell that their child was brain dead, or that the cancer they patient had was terminal. At this point in your career I am going to assume this has not been a scenario you have been placed into, but I have been in these situations. The seriousness and severity of parts of the OMS resident training unfortunately can lead to a "gallows humor" type of mentality. I can see that from time to time I fall into that mindset. Should you have thick skin....well it will help to be able to disengage from the emotional aspect of some of what OMS training involves. Does that bleed over into other areas, for sure. Its not great and difficult for some to understand, but those who have not been through the gauntlet (see schmoob above) really have not idea what OMS residency involves. I equate OMS residency, most surgical residencies for that matter, to be similar to the shared trauma and bond that military people feel toward colleagues.

Now, does that excuse the behavior of faculty and staff, NO. Compassion and patient centered care is always the goal. Do certain patients make me regret my choice, yup, from time to time. But there are also great, appreciative patients who are so thankful for the care that OMS's provide. I always try to be conscious of the patient experience as best I can but it can be difficult working with the public and some of the levels of expectations patients have.

Culture is variable and not static, keep your eye on the prize because if you match and complete residency, the financial, personal and professional rewards are great. Just imagine a point in your life where you don't even need to look at your bank account except every 4-6 months , your day to day life is rewarding yet not-overly stressful, and you get to choose where and how ofter to vacation. etc. That's what results on the backside of OMS residency. As a academic and PP OMS, its a great job and lifestyle. The work life balance can be tough, but not all the time, as with any job there are downsides and upsides. The upsides far outweigh the downsides, I have several trips planned over the next 12 months including, Hawaii, Ireland, DC, Finland, Florida, Atlanta, and others. This is what OMS allows, as do other specialities, but I really like mine. I make a real difference help people. Sometimes its a painful tooth, sometimes its a malformed/developed jaw, sometimes it is a Lyme scooter accident. But I feel that I am making a difference in peoples lives daily.

Stay the course and if you get down, PM me. Let me pump you up for a great career.
 
There is no point of toxic OMS culture. It adds nothing. It doesn’t make you tougher, it doesn’t make you a more capable surgeon, it doesn’t make you learn better or faster or retain things better. It’s a bunch of egotistical attendings abusing a power dynamic. In any other environment these attendings would be fired, ostracized, mocked for how they treat people.

And they know this too. There are real consequences outside of residency programs for these people, so they can’t freely treat people like ****. It’s why they’re completely different people outside of residency. Or when there is some residency/spouse event like a graduation they’re all of a sudden trying to joke around with you and get to know your spouse/SO. Random people in the community will say “Oh you know Dr. XXXXX? He’s a close family friend such a kind person”. But then they’re verbally and emotionally abusing their residents, constantly belittling them, making their residents’ lives harder in anyway they can. Demanding their time outside of normal hours, demanding personal favors. And then this bleeds over into any support staff as well. “Oh the residents have to do whatever we tell them otherwise we can tattle on them to the attending and they’ll get punished”.

And residents can’t do ****. They dangle our future, our livelihood, etc. in front of our face like a carrot in front of a donkey. Threaten you with getting kicked out, more call shifts, getting held back, or whatever. You have no recourse.

The residents get burned out, jaded. They’re all in survival mode, they don’t have the bandwidth to help each other, they start throwing each other under the bus for their own protection.

some of these attendings think they’re military drill sergeants and it’s their responsibility to shape the next generation of surgeons and make them what they think surgeons should be, which is some twisted idea from the 70’s. Some are just awful people and are showing who they truly are given a little power of the powerless.

These attendings foster an environment that is not conducive to learning. People overcome these environments to become great surgeons all of the time. But that is in spite of their attendings, not because of it like so many of these attendings think. They detract from your learning as you spend 90% of your time managing personalities and worried about getting axed instead of being able to focus on learning. There is little to no mentorship. The teaching is rigid and ill-adapted.

This used to be an issue with most medical specialties and still can be, but with younger attendings coming in, and being multiple generations removed from this toxicity, these environments have improved drastically.

This is also the case with a lot of the younger OMFS faculty as well. If a program has a good spread of different ages they likely have a solid culture and aren’t toxic. If you’re checking in a program and it’s three 70 year olds and a guy in his mid to late 50’s you’re probably gonna have a bad time. The issue is that so few young omfs want to go into academics because of pay, student loan burden, work hours, and burnout from residency.

There is no way around working hard. Thats residency. Everyone knows that going in, or they should. But toxic attendings, and toxic residents, are just showing their true colors. Perpetuating a cycle of abuse with the only reason being “well we had to go through it so you do too”
 
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There is no point of toxic OMS culture. It adds nothing. It doesn’t make you tougher, it doesn’t make you a more capable surgeon, it doesn’t make you learn better or faster or retain things better. It’s a bunch of egotistical attendings abusing a power dynamic. In any other environment these attendings would be fired, ostracized, mocked for how they treat people.

And they know this too. There are real consequences outside of residency programs for these people, so they can’t freely treat people like ****. It’s why they’re completely different people outside of residency. Or when there is some residency/spouse event like a graduation they’re all of a sudden trying to joke around with you and get to know your spouse/SO. Random people in the community will say “Oh you know Dr. XXXXX? He’s a close family friend such a kind person”. But then they’re verbally and emotionally abusing their residents, constantly belittling them, making their residents’ lives harder in anyway they can. Demanding their time outside of normal hours, demanding personal favors. And then this bleeds over into any support staff as well. “Oh the residents have to do whatever we tell them otherwise we can tattle on them to the attending and they’ll get punished”.

And residents can’t do ****. They dangle our future, our livelihood, etc. in front of our face like a carrot in front of a donkey. Threaten you with getting kicked out, more call shifts, getting held back, or whatever. You have no recourse.

The residents get burned out, jaded. They’re all in survival mode, they don’t have the bandwidth to help each other, they start throwing each other under the bus for their own protection.

some of these attendings think their military drill sergeants and it’s their responsibility to shape the next generation of surgeons and make them what they think surgeons should be, which is some twisted idea from the 70’s. Some are just awful people and are showing who they truly are given a little power of the powerless.

These attendings foster an environment that is not conducive to learning. People overcome these environments to become great surgeons all of the time. But that is in spite of their attendings, not because of it like so many of these attendings think. They detract from your learning as you spend 90% of your time managing personalities and worried about getting axed instead of being able to focus on learning. There is little to no mentorship. The teaching is rigid and ill-adapted.

This used to be an issue with most medical specialties and still can be, but with younger attendings coming in, and being multiple generations removed from this toxicity, these environments have improved drastically.

This is also the case with a lot of the younger OMFS faculty as well. If a program has a good spread of different ages they likely have a solid culture and aren’t toxic. If you’re checking in a program and it’s three 70 year olds and a guy in his mid to late 50’s you’re probably gonna have a bad time. The issue is that so few young omfs want to go into academics because of pay and hours and burnout from residency.

There is no way around working hard. Thats residency. Everyone knows that going in, or they should. But toxic attendings, and toxic residents, are just showing who their true colors. Perpetuating a cycle of abuse with the only reason being “well we had to go through it so you do too”
It makes you wonder, with this type of power dynamic, how often the "casting couch" situation plays out. I suspect more than anyone is ready to admit.
 
To the OP, everything you experience, positive and negative, makes you a better, more capable surgeon.

Some comments here are dark, but to echo the sentiments of Dr. nade0016, we are fortunate to be invited to participate in this great profession. It is an honor. And I’ll say (parenthetically) that this forum is fortunate to have nade0016.

“OMS culture”, with respect to training, is different at different institutions. I was fortunate in my full residency to have four attendings (we called them “Consultants”) who all were 30+ years into their careers, and they were all gentlemen. The worst I can remember is when one said, “I don’t like it.”

I did a noncat year at a different institution, and those attendings were different. Some would cut you into 15 pieces. They did not endeavor to make you feel good about yourself. Others are some of my best friends today. Both taught me lessons that I still remember. I still remember one of the latter saying to our chief resident, regarding a coagulation issue, “Don’t you think that, as the senior trainee at our institution, that is something you should know?”.

I am sure all of these attendings experienced the degradation and humiliation that we all experienced.

You cannot change or control other people’s behavior. You will run into toxic people, no matter what you do. The only person you can change is yourself.

So, as nade0016 says, stay the course. Realize that there is an end point.

And remember to show leadership yourself. If you get chewed out, look that person in the eye and say, “Thank you. I will do better.” And then do.

Be confident in what you know. If you get asked a question that you do not know, say, “I don’t know. I will look that up.” And you should know it the next day.

When you become a senior resident, be a good mentor to you junior residents. Let them see your confidence and observe how you own up to your mistakes.

And importantly, have your own mentors. I am in the last 10 years of my career, and I still have about 10 mentors. I reach out to at least one of them once a month.

Like nade0016 said, you can PM me if you would like conversation.
 
Ignore the schmoob's post above. They are gaslighting.

For culture in OMS: That depends, how many families have you had to tell that their child was brain dead, or that the cancer they patient had was terminal. At this point in your career I am going to assume this has not been a scenario you have been placed into, but I have been in these situations. The seriousness and severity of parts of the OMS resident training unfortunately can lead to a "gallows humor" type of mentality. I can see that from time to time I fall into that mindset. Should you have thick skin....well it will help to be able to disengage from the emotional aspect of some of what OMS training involves. Does that bleed over into other areas, for sure. Its not great and difficult for some to understand, but those who have not been through the gauntlet (see schmoob above) really have not idea what OMS residency involves. I equate OMS residency, most surgical residencies for that matter, to be similar to the shared trauma and bond that military people feel toward colleagues.

Now, does that excuse the behavior of faculty and staff, NO. Compassion and patient centered care is always the goal. Do certain patients make me regret my choice, yup, from time to time. But there are also great, appreciative patients who are so thankful for the care that OMS's provide. I always try to be conscious of the patient experience as best I can but it can be difficult working with the public and some of the levels of expectations patients have.

Culture is variable and not static, keep your eye on the prize because if you match and complete residency, the financial, personal and professional rewards are great. Just imagine a point in your life where you don't even need to look at your bank account except every 4-6 months , your day to day life is rewarding yet not-overly stressful, and you get to choose where and how ofter to vacation. etc. That's what results on the backside of OMS residency. As a academic and PP OMS, its a great job and lifestyle. The work life balance can be tough, but not all the time, as with any job there are downsides and upsides. The upsides far outweigh the downsides, I have several trips planned over the next 12 months including, Hawaii, Ireland, DC, Finland, Florida, Atlanta, and others. This is what OMS allows, as do other specialities, but I really like mine. I make a real difference help people. Sometimes its a painful tooth, sometimes its a malformed/developed jaw, sometimes it is a Lyme scooter accident. But I feel that I am making a difference in peoples lives daily.

Stay the course and if you get down, PM me. Let me pump you up for a great career.
Absolutely do not ignore my post, and I would read up on the definition of “gaslighting”

I have every right to share my experiences and the challenges I’ve experienced. At no point did I tell anyone never to use an OMS for implant placement. If anyone finds a good surgeon who places good restorative driven implants, then by all means stick with that doctor. But do not try to shut me up because you don’t like me sharing my experiences with your fellow specialists.

As a program director, that is very concerning how quick you want to silence someone. Just because I chose not to go through your “gauntlet,” it does not change the clinical outcomes that have come back to me.
 
Absolutely do not ignore my post, and I would read up on the definition of “gaslighting”

I have every right to share my experiences and the challenges I’ve experienced. At no point did I tell anyone never to use an OMS for implant placement. If anyone finds a good surgeon who places good restorative driven implants, then by all means stick with that doctor. But do not try to shut me up because you don’t like me sharing my experiences with your fellow specialists.

As a program director, that is very concerning how quick you want to silence someone. Just because I chose not to go through your “gauntlet,” it does not change the clinical outcomes that have come back to me.
I’ve been told by pretty much all my referring dentists that I’m far more superior than the periodontist in my area at implant surgery and bone grafting. She is quite honestly terrible at implant surgery, and throws her referring dentists under the bus in front of patients when cases have failed in the past.

So for every provider like yourself who have encountered results that are not perfect with an os, there is also periodontists who do a less than optimal job compared to oral surgeons. It’s provider specific.

There are many oral surgeons that are phenomenal at implant surgery. And we can also do it safe and efffectively under sedation, unlike periodontists.
 
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I’ve been told by pretty much all my referring dentists that I’m far more superior than the periodontist in my area at implant surgery and bone grafting. She is quite honestly terrible at implant surgery, and throws her referring dentists under the bus in front of patients when cases have failed in the past.

So for every provider like yourself who have encountered results that are not perfect with an os, there is also periodontists who do a less than optimal job compared to oral surgeons. It’s provider specific.

There are many oral surgeons that are phenomenal at implant surgery. And we can also do it safe and efffectively under sedation, unlike periodontists.
100%. Like I said, if there are surgeons in your area that do a good job then that’s great!
From what you’re telling me, your patients and referring doctors are very happy with your work. And of course not all perios are going to be implant wizards.
I’m glad you do great work. Keep it up, for your patients and referring doctors.
 
In my last year of residency, my $0.02 on the culture of OMFS. I think a lot of the friction comes from generational divides, attending experiences in residency vs current resident experiences, and the background of the residents themselves.

Generational divides/attending-resident culture

In my opinion, attendings fall into a few different categories
  • wonderful human beings who care about patients, have a passion for educating, and would succeed in private practice (somewhat rare)
  • well-intentioned people who have some sort of personality disorder/mental illness that would preclude them from succeeding in private practice, and have been institutionalized so long by academia that they get away with their behavior but overall do care deeply about the profession and educating residents, even if they don't have the emotional bandwidth to show it (common)
  • truly terrible human beings who relish torturing trainees and don't care about patients or trainees, only being big-time surgeons (very rare)
This mix can create a lot of friction. One area of differing views between residents and attendings that creates contention:

Attendings who are 40s or older lived through a time in training where their General Surgery experiences were much more educationally beneficial, fun, and autonomous on average. No endless EHR monkey tasks and lack of opportunity to do procedures and see/do cool stuff; they were very hands on and had independence and autonomy. Therefore, they view residency as a more valuable and well-rounded experience than residents today, who, on average, have had a much more disappointing time on General Surgery, whose programs now use OMFS residents as low cost labor and prioritize training their own NPs/PAs/residents. This is a whole different discussion, but I think most people would agree that this creates the attitude from younger residents of "this is a waste of time" which causes friction from the older attendings who think "that was an integral part of my training"

Very old attendings often are disappointed at the "entitlement" of current residents who simply do not understand what the previous generations had to go through to legitimize the specialty. I encourage every resident to read "The Humpty-Dumpty Syndrome" by Mort Goldberg to get a sense for what the boomers had to go through to create the opportunities we have today. Doesn't excuse some of their behavior, but definitiely increases our understanding of their perspective.

OMFS on service training quality of experience has also dipped from what the previous generations talks about. There is more hand-holding, less surgical autonomy now vs back then, as well as a higher BS EHR burden now. I think it's safe to speak for everyone currently in residency to say we wouldn't mind the work hours of the previous generation if it were actually filled with worthwhile surgical experience, increased volume and autononomy, but sadly the state of healthcare and surgical training has changed to not make that a reality anymore. Therefore, attendings view current residents as not as hardworking as their generation, even if opportunities/circumstances have shifted beyond their control.

Another area and something I see commonly, even if not verbalized: attendings harbor resentment of current residents. It's a great time to be seeking an associate position from a salary perspective these days. Attendings see residents who objectively are less skilled and experienced leave residency, chase high 6-figure salaries with private equity or corporate year one, never again to utilize 80% of what attendings poured their heart and soul into teaching them, abandoning the identity of the specailty for money. I can't blame anyone for doing this given the current economics of student loans/cost of living etc, but I can see how attendings internalize this and then grow to resent residents and make their lives miserable as a result. Not agreeing with the behavior, but can absolutely see its origins.

Intraresident culture

Residents I have met/worked with vary wildly. I think there are a lot of things at play.

As much as I hate sounding like a boomer, I think COVID has drastically changed a lot of things. We are living through the batch of residents that got essentially unlimited time off to inflate their CBSE scores, had limited interaction with patients/more limited externships, and made the decision of matching into OMFS without really knowing what they're getting themselves into. This is already going away with mostly a return to the normal in-person educational pathway. Another big shift is COVID letting people who otherwise never would have sniffed work-life balance get a taste of it, and a whole new wave of people prioritize a 3 day work week and time with their family, traveling etc while they're young. Residents see their peers from their hometowns or high school achieving this, and become resentful. Some will try to manipulate the schedule/assign work to other residents, do anything they can to try to improve their work life balance, including pawning off work to other residents. These are generally the wealthier, more entitled residents, who likely never had part time jobs or previous life experiences, have no education loans etc. We all know the type. Just my observation.

There is also a divide in philosophy between "that's how I was treated when I was an intern, so that's how I"ll treat my interns" vs "let's not destroy the interns for no reason, I'm gonna try to educate them in a reasonable, compassionate way". This dichotomy has always existed and will never go away, with the pendulum swinging however there is hope that the latter is prevailing.

Another elephant in the room is the more recent decrease in the quality of OMFS applicants. Dental students are now of a generation that prioritized work-life balance as never before. They are a lot less likely to sign up for 4-6 years of poor work life balance in their late 20s/early 30s than previous generations. The rise of super GPs on social media lead them to believe they can have specialty money without the time commitment, and despite the odds of them succeeding fresh out of school as a competent, safe super GP, they use this idea to make decisions about their career (that they usually later regret) This, plus the increasingly exorbitant cost of higher education vs stagnant inflation adjusted salaries (even before the Big Beautiful Bill) has made OMF applications:available spots decrease. These leaves programs taking residents of poorer quality just to avoid going unmatched/leaving an unmatched spot open. It then trickles down to poorer quality non-cats. Competitiveness of the field will never truly bottom out as long as the salary potential remains, but it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next decade with the BBB, increasing debt and cost of living, with no reduction of practice overhead or weakening of PE or corporate in sight.

Everything in the above paragraph makes residency a lot less likely to be made up of a bunch of hard working, normal, middle class kids trying to achieve the American dream mixed in with the children of physicians/dentists who were raised well with a good head on their shoulders and don't act like they were raised with a silver spoon in their mouths. All of them with previous life experiences/work experiences and having had played team sports (I interviewed incoming interns last application cycle and was overjoyed and surprised that every interviewee had held some sort of employment outside of school in their livers). I think every residency would function far better with this mixture of residents, who would have better, more coachable attitudes and therefore improve relationships with attendings, and ultimately improve the culture of OMFS.

Anybody who is not in OMFS or surgical training in general who has read this far generally cannot appreciate how much teamwork and interpersonal relationships matter in surgical subspecialties Other dental specialities and GPs can survive training with a much more individualistic mindset and in an environments that doesn't account for a lot of what makes the OMFS and surgical subspeciality culture what it is.

I think that the culture will shift in ways that are both positive and negative, and each individual can actually impact a program's culture a lot with a good attitude and good decisions. Interested to hear everyone else's thoughts.
 
In my last year of residency, my $0.02 on the culture of OMFS. I think a lot of the friction comes from generational divides, attending experiences in residency vs current resident experiences, and the background of the residents themselves.

Generational divides/attending-resident culture

In my opinion, attendings fall into a few different categories
  • wonderful human beings who care about patients, have a passion for educating, and would succeed in private practice (somewhat rare)
  • well-intentioned people who have some sort of personality disorder/mental illness that would preclude them from succeeding in private practice, and have been institutionalized so long by academia that they get away with their behavior but overall do care deeply about the profession and educating residents, even if they don't have the emotional bandwidth to show it (common)
  • truly terrible human beings who relish torturing trainees and don't care about patients or trainees, only being big-time surgeons (very rare)
This mix can create a lot of friction. One area of differing views between residents and attendings that creates contention:

Attendings who are 40s or older lived through a time in training where their General Surgery experiences were much more educationally beneficial, fun, and autonomous on average. No endless EHR monkey tasks and lack of opportunity to do procedures and see/do cool stuff; they were very hands on and had independence and autonomy. Therefore, they view residency as a more valuable and well-rounded experience than residents today, who, on average, have had a much more disappointing time on General Surgery, whose programs now use OMFS residents as low cost labor and prioritize training their own NPs/PAs/residents. This is a whole different discussion, but I think most people would agree that this creates the attitude from younger residents of "this is a waste of time" which causes friction from the older attendings who think "that was an integral part of my training"

Very old attendings often are disappointed at the "entitlement" of current residents who simply do not understand what the previous generations had to go through to legitimize the specialty. I encourage every resident to read "The Humpty-Dumpty Syndrome" by Mort Goldberg to get a sense for what the boomers had to go through to create the opportunities we have today. Doesn't excuse some of their behavior, but definitiely increases our understanding of their perspective.

OMFS on service training quality of experience has also dipped from what the previous generations talks about. There is more hand-holding, less surgical autonomy now vs back then, as well as a higher BS EHR burden now. I think it's safe to speak for everyone currently in residency to say we wouldn't mind the work hours of the previous generation if it were actually filled with worthwhile surgical experience, increased volume and autononomy, but sadly the state of healthcare and surgical training has changed to not make that a reality anymore. Therefore, attendings view current residents as not as hardworking as their generation, even if opportunities/circumstances have shifted beyond their control.

Another area and something I see commonly, even if not verbalized: attendings harbor resentment of current residents. It's a great time to be seeking an associate position from a salary perspective these days. Attendings see residents who objectively are less skilled and experienced leave residency, chase high 6-figure salaries with private equity or corporate year one, never again to utilize 80% of what attendings poured their heart and soul into teaching them, abandoning the identity of the specailty for money. I can't blame anyone for doing this given the current economics of student loans/cost of living etc, but I can see how attendings internalize this and then grow to resent residents and make their lives miserable as a result. Not agreeing with the behavior, but can absolutely see its origins.

Intraresident culture

Residents I have met/worked with vary wildly. I think there are a lot of things at play.

As much as I hate sounding like a boomer, I think COVID has drastically changed a lot of things. We are living through the batch of residents that got essentially unlimited time off to inflate their CBSE scores, had limited interaction with patients/more limited externships, and made the decision of matching into OMFS without really knowing what they're getting themselves into. This is already going away with mostly a return to the normal in-person educational pathway. Another big shift is COVID letting people who otherwise never would have sniffed work-life balance get a taste of it, and a whole new wave of people prioritize a 3 day work week and time with their family, traveling etc while they're young. Residents see their peers from their hometowns or high school achieving this, and become resentful. Some will try to manipulate the schedule/assign work to other residents, do anything they can to try to improve their work life balance, including pawning off work to other residents. These are generally the wealthier, more entitled residents, who likely never had part time jobs or previous life experiences, have no education loans etc. We all know the type. Just my observation.

There is also a divide in philosophy between "that's how I was treated when I was an intern, so that's how I"ll treat my interns" vs "let's not destroy the interns for no reason, I'm gonna try to educate them in a reasonable, compassionate way". This dichotomy has always existed and will never go away, with the pendulum swinging however there is hope that the latter is prevailing.

Another elephant in the room is the more recent decrease in the quality of OMFS applicants. Dental students are now of a generation that prioritized work-life balance as never before. They are a lot less likely to sign up for 4-6 years of poor work life balance in their late 20s/early 30s than previous generations. The rise of super GPs on social media lead them to believe they can have specialty money without the time commitment, and despite the odds of them succeeding fresh out of school as a competent, safe super GP, they use this idea to make decisions about their career (that they usually later regret) This, plus the increasingly exorbitant cost of higher education vs stagnant inflation adjusted salaries (even before the Big Beautiful Bill) has made OMF applications:available spots decrease. These leaves programs taking residents of poorer quality just to avoid going unmatched/leaving an unmatched spot open. It then trickles down to poorer quality non-cats. Competitiveness of the field will never truly bottom out as long as the salary potential remains, but it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next decade with the BBB, increasing debt and cost of living, with no reduction of practice overhead or weakening of PE or corporate in sight.

Everything in the above paragraph makes residency a lot less likely to be made up of a bunch of hard working, normal, middle class kids trying to achieve the American dream mixed in with the children of physicians/dentists who were raised well with a good head on their shoulders and don't act like they were raised with a silver spoon in their mouths. All of them with previous life experiences/work experiences and having had played team sports (I interviewed incoming interns last application cycle and was overjoyed and surprised that every interviewee had held some sort of employment outside of school in their livers). I think every residency would function far better with this mixture of residents, who would have better, more coachable attitudes and therefore improve relationships with attendings, and ultimately improve the culture of OMFS.

Anybody who is not in OMFS or surgical training in general who has read this far generally cannot appreciate how much teamwork and interpersonal relationships matter in surgical subspecialties Other dental specialities and GPs can survive training with a much more individualistic mindset and in an environments that doesn't account for a lot of what makes the OMFS and surgical subspeciality culture what it is.

I think that the culture will shift in ways that are both positive and negative, and each individual can actually impact a program's culture a lot with a good attitude and good decisions. Interested to hear everyone else's thoughts.
this is the most accurate take.
 
Generally speaking all programs are on a scale of malignancy. Some more than others, some less than others.

Malignancy is broken mainly into two categories :
1) malignancy between attendings and residents
2) malignancy between residents.

to dental students applying to residency - you got to ask yourself - how much malignancy are you willing to expose yourself to?

This is not meant to be a 4 vs 6 yr comparison, but once your in a malignant program you will wish you were graduating in 4 years as opposed to 6. If I had to guess omsdoc did a single degree program (or possibly even a three year omfs program in the 80s). It’s way easier to tolerate if you can get out sooner.

So, as nade0016 says, stay the course. Realize that there is an end point.


I think it's safe to speak for everyone currently in residency to say we wouldn't mind the work hours of the previous generation if it were actually filled with worthwhile surgical experience, increased volume and autononomy,

If a program does expanded scope with more fellows, there is a longer pecking order, more scut work, and usually more malignancy. And in the end, the resident may not have achieved as much first hand operating experience as they thought they would, as the focus is to train the fellow, not the average grunt resident.

Try to choose your program wisely.
 
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Generally speaking all programs are on a scale of malignancy. Some more than others, some less than others.

Malignancy is broken mainly into two categories :
1) malignancy between attendings and residents
2) malignancy between residents.

to dental students applying to residency - you got to ask yourself - how much malignancy are you willing to expose yourself to?

This is not meant to be a 4 vs 6 yr comparison, but once your in a malignant program you will wish you were graduating in 4 years as opposed to 6. If I had to guess omsdoc did a single degree program (or possibly even a three year omfs program in the 80s). It’s way easier to tolerate if you can get out sooner.






If a program does expanded scope with more fellows, there is a longer pecking order, more scut work, and usually more malignancy. And in the end, the resident may not have achieved as much first hand operating experience as they thought they would, as the focus is to train the fellow, not the average grunt resident.

Try to choose your program wisely.
Agree with a lot here. I attend a 6 year with no fellows. I think my program, while not perfect, overall has mostly attendings in the second category I listed above who truly want us/the specialty to succeed, and hold us accountable in their own way. Different generations of training see the world differently. This makes for some understandable friction.

To your point about malignancy between residents; I find this way harder to stomach. We're in a good spot right now but it hasn't always been that way/could always change again. I will never understand how residents can be malignant to each other. It should be an "us vs them" if there is any conflict at all within the program. Chiefs who punch down on juniors/interns without justification are usually terrible people with worse personality disorders than attendings and will have a very hard time retaining staff/satisfying GPs in practice, in my observation. Residents should be elevating and supporting each other to survive training. For dental students, it's very hard to determine this based off an interview when everyone is on their best behavior.
 
This, plus the increasingly exorbitant cost of higher education vs stagnant inflation adjusted salaries (even before the Big Beautiful Bill) has made OMF applications:available spots decrease. These leaves programs taking residents of poorer quality just to avoid going unmatched/leaving an unmatched spot open. It then trickles down to poorer quality non-cats. Competitiveness of the field will never truly bottom out as long as the salary potential remains, but it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next decade with the BBB, increasing debt and cost of living, with no reduction of practice overhead or weakening of PE or corporate in sight.
People are saying that now with BBB, 4 year spots might become exponentially more competitive, as even people who want to do 6-year may not feasibly be able to afford it or get loans for it.

Do you agree with that?
 
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People are saying that now with BBB, 4 year spots might become exponentially more competitive, as even people who want to do 6-year may not feasibly be able to afford it or get loans for it.

Do you agree with that?
I agree it will push a lot more applicants to 4 year programs. When I was applying, I only applied 6. If I were applying now, I would apply to both.

I think the field is still desirable enough that people will continue to apply to both. Maybe the BBB will cause 6 years to be the "back up plan" for most applicants. Maybe alumni from 6 year programs will help subsidize tuition at their alma maters more than is presently done. It will be interesting to see what happens but I share your overall level of concern.
 
lol from my experiences and referrals OMFS is challenging exo and 3rd molar cases. I NEVER EVER refer implants to OMS because I always have restorative issues. my latest one was an anterior that was placed so facially that it could not be restored with a screw-retained and required a cement-retained. Again, in my experience OMS treat implants as a surgical procedure and not a restorative procedure with a surgical component. I always refer to Perio (ESPECIALLY if it’s anterior if I don’t feel comfortable doing myself), or if it’s a tough case all around, I refer to prosth.

Lol, I have a different relationship with OS/implants. I always tell them that whatever **** you throw at me, I'll make it work and make you look like a star, but the expectation is the same, if I ever need you to bail me out, you better have my back. Thank goodness for custom abutments.
 
We all have our preferences on specialty referrals. And of course it all depends on the skills and bedside manners of that specialist. I'm with @schmoob in that I'm more comfortable referring a patient to the periodontist for anterior implants requiring detail work for tissue esthetics. I feel that a periodontist is more in tune with the restorative side. All wisdom teeth chucking goes to OS. All impacted cuspid exposure and bonds goes to OS.

On a side note. OS. PLEASE. when doing the cuspid exposure/bonds ..... please attach the button on the LABIAL coronal aspect of the impacted cuspid. Placing the attachment on the lingual is DEATH. Tooth comes in rotated. 😒
 
We all have our preferences on specialty referrals. And of course it all depends on the skills and bedside manners of that specialist. I'm with @schmoob in that I'm more comfortable referring a patient to the periodontist for anterior implants requiring detail work for tissue esthetics. I feel that a periodontist is more in tune with the restorative side. All wisdom teeth chucking goes to OS. All impacted cuspid exposure and bonds goes to OS.

On a side note. OS. PLEASE. when doing the cuspid exposure/bonds ..... please attach the button on the LABIAL coronal aspect of the impacted cuspid. Placing the attachment on the lingual is DEATH. Tooth comes in rotated. 😒

Never seen a lingual placement before... that would be an interesting sight.
 
We all have our preferences on specialty referrals. And of course it all depends on the skills and bedside manners of that specialist. I'm with @schmoob in that I'm more comfortable referring a patient to the periodontist for anterior implants requiring detail work for tissue esthetics. I feel that a periodontist is more in tune with the restorative side. All wisdom teeth chucking goes to OS. All impacted cuspid exposure and bonds goes to OS.

On a side note. OS. PLEASE. when doing the cuspid exposure/bonds ..... please attach the button on the LABIAL coronal aspect of the impacted cuspid. Placing the attachment on the lingual is DEATH. Tooth comes in rotated. 😒

The issue is that oftentimes cuspids are positioned closer to the palate than the buccal/labial bone surface, so less bone is removed if it is accessed and bonded in a palatal manner. Moreover, the labial coronal surface of the cuspid is sometimes immediately posterior to the roots of the erupted incisors.
 
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The purpose of developing thick skin is to be able to think clearly, care for patients and do your job properly under any circumstances. I don't support toxicity in any type of training, but if you are trained by and with toxic people you develop VERY thick skin. You learn not to ruminate and to be able to focus irrespective of emotional state. This is important because oral surgery training is demanding and you will be in environments with people outside of your control...and you will be faced with hard situations outside of your control....and a strong mind that is unaffected by the environment is crucial.
Again I don't support toxic learning environments and gas lighting and all the nonsense but part of my training was completed in such an environment...and now as a non categorical in an OS program I am VERY unaffected by my environment. This doesn't equate to having no compassion. It just means for example if my co resident or whomever is having a bad day and takes it out on me, or decides to bully or gaslight, I am unaffected and can do my job. If I make a mistake, I learn from it and quickly move on. The point is to be able to focus on who matters, which are the patients, and this should be done regardless of your emotional state or what the people in your environment are doing/saying.
I will say, gas lighting, lies and manipulation were probably the toughest things to adjust to in a professional working environment because not only is it insidious and serves no purpose but I also expect healthcare professionals to know and do better. But once you identify what these toxic behaviors look like, you quickly learn to filter the idiots out.
 
Program director here, I guess from your question we are assuming omfs culture is universally negative and is meant to make you go through a right of passage. I don't believe this is the case and my training involved a GPR in 1993, Fellowship or today a non-cat, in 1994 and then 4 years of OMFS from 1995-1999. Like in any situation there are those attendings and residents who do more "brow beating and degrees of punishment" as their way of teaching. I don't believe this is the norm, but tends to be the outliers. That being said, I feel personally that 4-6 years of formal training move quickly, try to brush off the bad actors as you will encounter this whether you are in training or not. Like I voice to my residents, try to gravitate towards those that enjoy their job of teaching and as many of those who you can find. At the end of the day you are the product of your professors. Most of how I perform surgery or even talk with my clientele is a homologation of all the professors who taught me and leave me with fond memories when I am working on daily basis. I recall the origin of what I am doing at that very moment surgically or conversing with my client. Real growth occurs when you take all the pearls of wisdom and make them your own and from there you make them even better with time and then hopefully the cycle continues as you pass down those cultured pearls to the younger generation. Keep your chin up and try to look past the unhelpful learning.
 
my thoughts after GPR and non cat experience- now being in PP for many years supervising dentists with and without post grad training

I was an outlier for post grad, PP few years to post grad with goals to go into OMFS

- human nature is has a tendency to do the minimum if it no longer is counted as grades or scored on transcript.
: conscious sedation course one semester and my co residents universally could not care less of actually learning the material, didn’t pay attention or take notes. Furthermore didn’t take the effort or chance to apply the didactic to get certified in sedation for patients in clinic for IV sedation. ( I was second in history).
: anesthesia rotation 6 weeks- my coresidents either didn’t show up or didn’t participate and stood there waiting for clock to expire.
I, after being pimped didactic dosages, was permitted to intubate patients and eventually intubated 15 patients independently. And signed off on this as a competency.
I actually requested to get more time in endoscopy doing MACs to practice but they said it was a second year OMFS rotation only.

I have also helped an assisted residents and dentists that are stuck in ways and don’t want to learn and sometimes really slow due to that.

Trying to change people or reverse a life of entitlement /easy living or attitude when it no longer counts for marks is very difficult

Especially new grads- repeat and repeat until sometimes they learn the hard way that you cannot take multiple hours for a root canal. That’s hard on a patient opening their jaw for a long movie for example , and it’s not a good movie. Covid trained gen has gotten worse in terms of experience.

I would say the real life is harsh and patients are not forgiving. Piss off the wrong one and expect either online complaints on social media slamming your name publicly or worse going the licensing body.

Overall I would say sometimes, to a degree, being firm and not over nice must be done to make people change and learn. We have the tendency to respond to pain and change when your being watched.

Imagine your assistant/subordinate constantly forgetting to do a simple thing like turn on machine/drill/light. Or worse something critical like throat pack and patient aspirates a tooth and you loose your license. You will repeat it over and over prior to elevating the tooth. Imagine the assistant/intern still forgets after the 28th time repeating yourself? Will you as the teacher be as calm the first 5x repeating or just simply do everything yourself and then deduct credibility to the trainee/junior?

And PP dentists in general can be toxic and demanding to all subordinates. For example, I’ve seen it where dentists “forget” how to turn on computers take X-rays, seat patients and put stuff away on own. Extreme cases they need an assistant to watch them do exams so notes can be done by an assistant. An extreme example their Lunch bag and purse be carried to the car by an assistant. So it may not just be seen in OS residency as you may assume the worse cases, where stakes can be much higher.

One thing most difficult to reverse is work ethic, attitude and drive.for example had a pp dentist assist me (to learn some OS) for a fully booked day of IV sedations and locals and consults.. well let’s say she ended up sitting out for last 3-4 hours on massage chair as her back was tired. (12-14 hour day) so I had no choice to finish the day without a assistant (steri tech only) proceeding with some local anesthesia extractions alone.
 
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