Curious about rad onc

[cecumbowels]

I am currently a 1st year radiology resident (already did prelim) and I am not truly enjoying radiology. I just can’t imagine doing this for the rest of my life. I honestly have enjoyed patient interaction during med school and my prelim year.I am exploring other options. I did post similar question on the IM thread. I feel like I radiation oncology sounds really cool. Can you guys tell me more about it? I have already read a lot of threads telling people not to go into it because of job prospects dying field, etc.. Is it a difficult field? Do you guys take any call during residency?

I have never done a radiation oncology rotation. I am def very interested to learn about the field. I honestly don’t mind putting in the extra years if it will mean I find the work more interesting in the long run. Could I even get a spot? No research, step 1 220s, step 2 240s. I kind of have an idea what people are going to say but maybe I’ll be surprised.

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[deleted1116990]

How do you feel about working in Iowa for 239k/year after you graduate?

 

[RADONC4285]

I am currently a 1st year radiology resident (already did prelim) and I am not truly enjoying radiology. I just can’t imagine doing this for the rest of my life. I honestly have enjoyed patient interaction during med school and my prelim year.I am exploring other options. I did post similar question on the IM thread. I feel like I radiation oncology sounds really cool. Can you guys tell me more about it? I have already read a lot of threads telling people not to go into it because of job prospects dying field, etc.. Is it a difficult field? Do you guys take any call during residency?

I have never done a radiation oncology rotation. I am def very interested to learn about the field. I honestly don’t mind putting in the extra years if it will mean I find the work more interesting in the long run. Could I even get a spot? No research, step 1 220s, step 2 240s. I kind of have an idea what people are going to say but maybe I’ll be surprised.

Very interesting subject matter. Ample time with patients. Excellent life style once you're done with residency with minimal call. Call is mostly home call. On the other hand, you spend a lot of time doing computer work, which some people would hate. Residency not as easy as people think it is. You have to learn a lot of new things, including physics and radiation biology, both of which are part of boards. Would highly recommend you spend time in a rad onc dept before applying.

Now to the obvious, the job market is very tough. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's only expected to get worse. Salaries are still very good, but have stagnated and nobody knows what will happen as the supply continues to explode. Think long and hard about these points before you decide

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

 

[Aphiah]

Very interesting subject matter. Ample time with patients. Excellent life style once you're done with residency with minimal call. Call is mostly home call. On the other hand, you spend a lot of time doing computer work, which some people would hate. Residency not as easy as people think it is. You have to learn a lot of new things, including physics and radiation biology, both of which are part of boards. Would highly recommend you spend time in a rad onc dept before applying.

Now to the obvious, the job market is very tough. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's only expected to get worse. Salaries are still very good, but have stagnated and nobody knows what will happen as the supply continues to explode. Think long and hard about these points before you decide

Is there really no visible light at the end of this tunnel? No professional analysts who’ve examined the job market to give a strong educated guess on where the market will be in 10 years? Several Rad Onc programs seem to be trying to address the issue by deliberately not filling their seats or reducing their seats. Has this been factored into how we look at the future of Rad Onc?

I’m also a Resident looking into Rad Onc.

 

[TheWallnerus]

I am currently a 1st year radiology resident (already did prelim) and I am not truly enjoying radiology. I just can’t imagine doing this for the rest of my life. I honestly have enjoyed patient interaction during med school and my prelim year.I am exploring other options. I did post similar question on the IM thread. I feel like I radiation oncology sounds really cool. Can you guys tell me more about it? I have already read a lot of threads telling people not to go into it because of job prospects dying field, etc.. Is it a difficult field? Do you guys take any call during residency?

I have never done a radiation oncology rotation. I am def very interested to learn about the field. I honestly don’t mind putting in the extra years if it will mean I find the work more interesting in the long run. Could I even get a spot? No research, step 1 220s, step 2 240s. I kind of have an idea what people are going to say but maybe I’ll be surprised.

You like patients? We have patients. You like cool stuff? We got cool stuff. You want a rad onc spot? We got rad onc spots. You don't want no call? We don't got no stinking call!

But on Friday, you gotta find a job.

 

[medgator]

Is there really no visible light at the end of this tunnel? No professional analysts who’ve examined the job market to give a strong educated guess on where the market will be in 10 years? Several Rad Onc programs seem to be trying to address the issue by deliberately not filling their seats or reducing their seats.

Pissing in the wind. Programs that provide good training like Cleveland clinic or Anderson are actually cutting a spot here and there or choosing not to fill a spot.

Meanwhile ****ty programs are filling or even expanding. Columbia was a recent notorious example

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Is there really no visible light at the end of this tunnel?

 

[RSAOaky]

How do you feel about working in Iowa for 239k/year after you graduate?

so meta I love it

 

[RSAOaky]

Is there really no visible light at the end of this tunnel? No professional analysts who’ve examined the job market to give a strong educated guess on where the market will be in 10 years? Several Rad Onc programs seem to be trying to address the issue by deliberately not filling their seats or reducing their seats. Has this been factored into how we look at the future of Rad Onc?

I’m also a Resident looking into Rad Onc.

When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.

 

[RickyScott]

Biggest mistake of your life. Even if we shutdown all residencies completely, there will still be an oversupply problem in 2030s due to declining utilization. Unless you have another residency under your belt as a back up don’t do radonc. Job situation will only get worse. 15 years into your career, all specialties are just a job.

 

[cecumbowels]

So lets just say I decide that I really want to do rad onc. Should I quit radiology now and start doing rotations in it? Would I be guaranteed to match in it or is it still up in the air?

I honestly dont mind making 250k. I would be content with that. I feel like the job is probably fulfilling. Yes it would be a pay cut in comparison to radiology, but I also see people talking about making 700k on this forum in rad onc.

 

[jondunn]

So lets just say I decide that I really want to do rad onc. Should I quit radiology now and start doing rotations in it? Would I be guaranteed to match in it or is it still up in the air?

I honestly dont mind making 250k. I would be content with that. I feel like the job is probably fulfilling. Yes it would be a pay cut in comparison to radiology, but I also see people talking about making 700k on this forum in rad onc.

you would match, that's not the issue

you should probably go spend a day somehow before you start thinking of quitting residency


you have to really like it more than radiology to take that kind of risk

 

[medgator]

Yes it would be a pay cut in comparison to radiology, but I also see people talking about making 700k on this forum in rad onc.

Exception, not the rule. You're more likely to make that money now in rads honestly

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Curiosity killed the cat

 

[RickyScott]

So lets just say I decide that I really want to do rad onc. Should I quit radiology now and start doing rotations in it? Would I be guaranteed to match in it or is it still up in the air?

I honestly dont mind making 250k. I would be content with that. I feel like the job is probably fulfilling. Yes it would be a pay cut in comparison to radiology, but I also see people talking about making 700k on this forum in rad onc.

you could work in rural Iowa for 250? No graduating resident will make 700

 

[cecumbowels]

you would match, that's not the issue

you should probably go spend a day somehow before you start thinking of quitting residency


you have to really like it more than radiology to take that kind of risk

Do you think a day is enough to get the idea? probably not right. Also I would probably need a letter of reccomendation right from rad onc attending?

 

[jondunn]

No graduating resident will make 700

huh? you really think that? when do you mean? now? or 10 years from now?

plain false for a 2022 grad.

 

[cecumbowels]

you could work in rural Iowa for 250? No graduating resident will make 700

yeah honestly I prefer living in a rural area over city anyways. Its nice to have access to city for weekend but I do not need to live in a city itself.

 

[cecumbowels]

Also will I have to repeat prelim year?

 

[cecumbowels]

I have looked at the profiles at the rad onc residents in my local state and they are seem like stellar candidates. Like there is no comparison between me and them? Some have taken 1-2 research years before residency.

 

[medgator]

I have looked at the profiles at the rad onc residents in my local state and they are seem like stellar candidates. Like there is no comparison between me and them? Some have taken 1-2 research years before residency.

We are in a different world now... 30+ unfilled slots the last 3 years into the SOAP

 

[cecumbowels]

I dont know these people dont agree with the vibes of this forum.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I have looked at the profiles at the rad onc residents in my local state and they are seem like stellar candidates. Like there is no comparison between me and them? Some have taken 1-2 research years before residency.

I would spend some more time reading this forum, perhaps Googling a few things. It sounds like you came up with this idea like 2 hours ago, and I think a lot of your questions have already been answered at length. Some of the specific mechanics about transferring will be unique program-to-program and can't be answered in general.

 

[RADONC4285]

I have looked at the profiles at the rad onc residents in my local state and they are seem like stellar candidates. Like there is no comparison between me and them? Some have taken 1-2 research years before residency.

you don't need to be stellar anymore. They'll take anyone with a pulse. Having said that, the programs that will take anyone with a pulse are the ones who'll have the most difficulty getting good jobs for their grads. Making 700 is the exception as others have pointed out. Most start around 300 these days. Salaries are very likely to go down over the next decade. More importantly, finding a job will not be guaranteed. People have a hard time imagining it until it happens. Rad oncs don't freaking retire, RT indications/number of treatments is going down. ....

If despite all of the above, you still really want rad onc, spend a good amount of time in a department. Like a good couple of months. It's unlike anything you've ever done. You may love it or absolutely hate it. I know of people who soaped into rad onc because they thought it was cool and quit after 1 year.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I dont know these people dont agree with the vibes of this forum.

Oh snap it's been awhile since there was a pure troll post!

Who are you? Dan? KO? Drew? I need to know!

 

[cecumbowels]

Oh snap it's been awhile since there was a pure troll post!

Who are you? Dan? KO? Drew? I need to know!

Genuinely not a troll. I was just on youtube and came across this, but I also thought it would be somewhat entertaining to post this video to see everyones thoughts.

 

[jondunn]

i started considering the troll possibility when he/she/they asked if they had to do an intern year again

 

[cecumbowels]

i started considering the troll possibility when he/she/they asked if they had to do an intern year again

seriously guys not a troll. If there is a way I can prove it just ask. You can also look at my post history. I was genuinely asking about repeating intern year because I know some people who transferred into anesthesia and optho that had to repeat their intern year.

 

[medgator]

seriously guys not a troll. If there is a way I can prove it just ask. You can also look at my post history. I was genuinely asking about repeating intern year because I know some people who transferred into anesthesia and optho that had to repeat their intern year.

Intern years are good for any specialty

 

[cecumbowels]

I also feel that my radiology experience will actually be beneficial if I decide to go forward with rad onc.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

You guys are falling for it. OP is pretty clearly full of shlt.

 

[salubalu]

you could work in rural Iowa for 250? No graduating resident will make 700

I don’t think this is true. People with 3-5 years exp can still make 500-800

 

[salubalu]

What would be cool if you got some IR exp and went into rad onc. Do your own ct guided biopsies/fiducials and treat 😛

 

[RadRadRad]

What would be cool if you got some IR exp and went into rad onc. Do your own ct guided biopsies/fiducials and treat 😛

Or better yet, just do IR

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

This would be like joining Lehman Brothers after they filed chapter 11 in 2008

 

[RickyScott]

I don’t think this is true. People with 3-5 years exp can still make 500-800

Very hard to get over 500k now

 

[jondunn]

Very hard to get over 500k now

Very hard? Now? In PP? I can’t say this is the experience o those I know. Future likely but not now for mid career folks

 

[RickyScott]

Very hard? Now?

Plenty here may earn over 500. What I am saying is that a new grad is very unlikely to progress/be promoted into this range.

 

[jondunn]

Plenty here may earn over 500. What I am saying is that a new grad is very unlikely to progress/be promoted into this range.

A new grad in 2022?

Sorry exaggeration helps no one

 

[TheWallnerus]

You guys are falling for it. OP is pretty clearly full of shlt.

 

[RickyScott]

A new grad in 2022?

Sorry exaggeration helps no one

Why would any academic system give a new grad much of a raise in the near future?

 

[RADONC4285]

Guys we don't have to speculate. Per most recent MGMA. median is about 520k. 75th percentile is like 650k. So only a very small percentage make over 700k. And of course 50% make 500 or less. Keep in mind mgma is the highest of all salary surveys

 

[RickyScott]

Guys we don't have to speculate. Per most recent MGMA. median is about 520k. 75th percentile is like 650k. So only a very small percentage make over 700k. And of course 50% make 500 or less. Keep in mind mgma is the highest of all salary surveys

I am speculating about what will happen to the new graduates not the present. Most will end up at an academic system/satellite and it is very difficult to achieve a substantive raise in this type of job market. If they start out at 300-350 good luck getting to 5 over the next 5 years.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

If you had to estimate. What percent of residents graduating this year will ever make more than >700k?

I'd place it at 5%. The options to do so are rapidly disappearing.

I think we mid-career guys all need to be comfortable with the fact that what you make this year is likely as much as you'll ever make again.

 

[RSAOaky]

I am speculating about what will happen to the new graduates not the present. Most will end up at an academic system/satellite and it is very difficult to achieve a substantive raise in this type of job market. If they start out at 300-350 good luck getting to 5 over the next 5 years.

Exactly this. I have been very open about my compensation but it is the exception not the rule and it is with a high level of productivity that I anticipate will drop. New grads will be paid 300-350k on average, possibly topping out in the 400-500k range mid career, with very few opportunities to make more (chair, admin role, exceptional productivity). I have a colleague who joined a practice in a Tier 2 city. The practice sold out to the hospital before he could make partner and then the hospital gave everyone ****ty contracts so they all left. Now he's on a ****ty contract picking up the slack, and if he leaves he'll be replaced by one of the hundreds of graduating residents who would rather make $250-300k in a good city than whatever they're paying in Iowa.

If you had to estimate. What percent of residents graduating this year will ever make more than >700k?

I'd place it at 5%. The options to do so are rapidly disappearing.

I think we mid-career guys all need to be comfortable with the fact that what you make this year is likely as much as you'll ever make again.

I think this is accurate. Residents need to be comfortable with the idea of TOPPING OFF at $400-$500k mid career. Still a lot of money but $250-500k less than we should be making and the same or less than you'd make in many other fields (radiology, anesthesia, IM subspecialties) without the same location constraints.

 

[RickyScott]

Exactly this. I have been very open about my compensation but it is the exception not the rule and it is with a high level of productivity that I anticipate will drop. New grads will be paid 300-350k on average, possibly topping out in the 400-500k range mid career, with very few opportunities to make more (chair, admin role, exceptional productivity). I have a colleague who joined a practice in a Tier 2 city. The practice sold out to the hospital before he could make partner and then the hospital gave everyone ****ty contracts so they all left. Now he's on a ****ty contract picking up the slack, and if he leaves he'll be replaced by one of the hundreds of graduating residents who would rather make $250-300k in a good city than whatever they're paying in Iowa.

I think this is accurate. Residents need to be comfortable with the idea of TOPPING OFF at $400-$500k mid career. Still a lot of money but $250-500k less than we should be making and the same or less than you'd make in many other fields (radiology, anesthesia, IM subspecialties) without the same location constraints.

Historically, docs needed another job offer with a legitimate threat of leaving, to receive a substantive salary raise in most academic systems. I just dont see that ever happening for most of today's grads.

 

[metallica81788]

I think we mid-career guys all need to be comfortable with the fact that what you make this year is likely as much as you'll ever make again.

Exactly this. I have been very open about my compensation but it is the exception not the rule and it is with a high level of productivity that I anticipate will drop.

I'm not even mid-career (almost 3 years out) and I'm treating every year as this is the most I will ever make going forward.

I'm similar to RSAOaky in that I am productivity based and lucked into a fairly good setup that gives me above average pay but I work for it (although I should get more by all accounts). However there are pressures of hiring an additional doctor which would tank everything for me while simultaneously saving our entire field by giving someone A job that is not needed. I'm trying to make hay while the sun shines but the clouds creep ever closer.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Downward pressures on salaries all around us.

 

[RickyScott]

I'm not even mid-career (almost 3 years out) and I'm treating every year as this is the most I will ever make going forward.

I'm similar to RSAOaky in that I am productivity based and lucked into a fairly good setup that gives me above average pay but I work for it (although I should get more by all accounts). However there are pressures of hiring an additional doctor which would tank everything for me while simultaneously saving our entire field by giving someone A job that is not needed. I'm trying to make hay while the sun shines but the clouds creep ever closer.

Almost all academic systems would rather have 2 docs at 300-350 seeing 3-4 new pts per week vs one doc at 500-600 seeing 6- 8 new pts per week.