Curious about Residency

[deleted212936]

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Some people said, "I succesfully matched into my first-choice residency..." things like that. Please tell me about the road to residency! What factors are used to determine whether you match or don't match? 😕 What does it take to "match" into your first choice?

 

[Revilla]

First and second year grades, research, third-year evaluations/grades, board scores, and dean's letters. Whether or not you match into your first choice is likely to also depend on what specialty you're going for. There are competitive specialties and not-so-competitive specialties. It all depends on where your interests lie and what you've done to strengthen your application for the program you want.

 

[LizzyM]

First and second year grades, research, third-year evaluations/grades, board scores, and dean's letters. Whether or not you match into your first choice is likely to also depend on what specialty you're going for. There are competitive specialties and not-so-competitive specialties. It all depends on where your interests lie and what you've done to strengthen your application for the program you want.

It also depends on what choices you make. If you don't aim very high, you can get into "your" first choice although it might not be anyone else's first choice. Take the "first choice" talk with a grain of salt.

That said, it is grades, board scores, evaluations, (research), and Dean's LOR, plus interview, that matter

 

[Law2Doc]

First and second year grades, research, third-year evaluations/grades, board scores, and dean's letters. ...

Definitely not in this order. It's more like Step 1 score, 3rd year evaluations and grades, deans letter, away rotation evals, interview, research, AOA ... and maybe way, way, way down the list in the next zipcode things like first and second year grades. In fact, one mentor used to call it the "dirty little secret" of med school that the first two year's grades really don't count. Nobody mentions this, and you kill yourself living in the library to do well, but you learn how little it matters later down the road. Of course the information is important for things like Step 1 and how you do in your clinical year pimpings, so it's not a wasted effort, but the grades themselves in the basic science years aren't.

 

[afkari]

How about gpa and mcat score during undergrad? I was looking at a residency application online for a competitive program and it asked for your undergrad info!

 

[Law2Doc]

Some people said, "I succesfully matched into my first-choice residency..." things like that. Please tell me about the road to residency! What factors are used to determine whether you match or don't match? 😕 What does it take to "match" into your first choice?

As mentioned, during your third and fourth years of medical school you will be doing clinical rotations and electives in the wards of hospitals. You will find you like some things and dislike others, and ultimately choose a field to enter. So you apply to your chosen specialty by September of your fourth year, go on interviews, and then rank the programs you interviewed at in the order you'd like to attend. The programs also do a rank order list of the individuals they interviewed. Then a computer algorithm tries to match up students with programs. The program works well and something like 80% get one of their top 3 choices. Everybody finds out where they matched on Match Day in mid-March.

However matching into your first choice isn't as meaningful a statistic as some would suggest. You can only rank places that interviewed you. (Well, I suppose you could rank others, but they won't be ranking you so it's a waste of money). So your "first choice" could really be your 50th choice when you started the process, but it was simply the best of the bunch that actually chose to interview you. In fact, it might not even be in the specialty you wanted -- lots of less competitive folks are advised to apply to a backup specialty. So for example, if you were applying to derm, but with IM as your backup, and didn't get any derm interviews, you might get into your first choice IM rank but not be feeling particularly happy about it. Yet the school is still going to lump you in with the percentage of students who got their first choice match. ...

 

[Law2Doc]

How about gpa and mcat score during undergrad? I was looking at a residency application online for a competitive program and it asked for your undergrad info!

Some rare places ask, but it's still regarded as pretty meaningless compared to anything you've done once med school starts, and it's not on ERAS (the online application that most residencies use). You'd have to do a pretty bad job of wowing a program if they had to look to any undergrad stats to decide if you were worthy.

 

[DrBB]

How important is the name/reputation of the medical school that you go to? For example would going to a ranked school make a difference as opposed to going to a non-ranked/lower tier school?

 

[Revilla]

Definitely not in this order. It's more like Step 1 score, 3rd year evaluations and grades, deans letter, away rotation evals, interview, research, AOA ... and maybe way, way, way down the list in the next zipcode things like first and second year grades. In fact, one mentor used to call it the "dirty little secret" of med school that the first two year's grades really don't count. Nobody mentions this, and you kill yourself living in the library to do well, but you learn how little it matters later down the road. Of course the information is important for things like Step 1 and how you do in your clinical year pimpings, so it's not a wasted effort, but the grades themselves in the basic science years aren't.

I wasn't really commenting on order, just giving a list of things program directors look at. By the way, isn't AOA determined partly by first and second year grades? How do you get AOA if you don't excel in years one and two (assuming you're not at a P/F school)?

 

[Law2Doc]

How important is the name/reputation of the medical school that you go to? For example would going to a ranked school make a difference as opposed to going to a non-ranked/lower tier school?

This is a hotly debated issue and I suggest you read the recent threads on exactly this issue, rather than restart the discussion here. My own personal view and experience is that school ranking is pretty meaningless because school name is fairly low down on the list of factors program directors look at, and are dwarfed by things like board scores, which are school independent. A recent poll of residency program directors pretty much said the exact same thing. But read the threads -- folks in pre-allo seem to WANT higher ranked schools to have more meaning. I think part of it is that folks who get into the top schools like to feel like they just wrote their own ticket, but in fact the race has only just begun. Think of it as reaching base camp of Everest -- the mountain still lies ahead and if your camp is a few hundred feet higher up the mountain that's still pretty inconsequential.

 

[Law2Doc]

I wasn't really commenting on order, just giving a list of things program directors look at. By the way, isn't AOA determined partly by first and second year grades? How do you get AOA if you don't excel in years one and two (assuming you're not at a P/F school)?

Some schools don't have AOA, others have a large popularity component. But sure, your rank usually plays a big role in AOA. Again AOA is not critical to get a top residency -- look at it as a cherry on top of a sundae -- the sundae is still going to get the job done, but it's that little extra something that's nice to have. Again, I would take straight passes in the first two years and an outstanding Step 1 score over a string of Honors throughout the first two years and a mediocre Step 1 score any day. The grades aren't very important.

 

[45408]

How important is the name/reputation of the medical school that you go to? For example would going to a ranked school make a difference as opposed to going to a non-ranked/lower tier school?

This will vary widely from one residency site to another, and even more in between the programs at that site. Unlike medical school admissions, there are a lot fewer people involved at looking at your application for residency. One program director at my school told us that he personally reviews every application they get, and he personally separates them into the "definitely interview, maybe interview, and don't interview" piles. If HE thinks your school is good, then it is. If he thinks your school is bad, then it is. His opinion might be extremely different from anyone else's, and you won't know the specifics. This is very different from medical school, where your application is reviewed by a committee. If you apply to a program that few people from your school apply to, and the one guy from your class that did his residency there was an idiot, it will probably be held against you. On the other hand, if your school has sent dozens of superstars through that residency program, you've got an advantage. This PD that spoke to us said that the criteria he used the most was your Step 1 score and whether or not you attended a US medical school.

 

[handetalc]

How important is the name/reputation of the medical school that you go to? For example would going to a ranked school make a difference as opposed to going to a non-ranked/lower tier school?

The cold hard truth is that it does matter. Not as much as some other factors such as Step 1 score, M3 grades, interview skills, etc. But it certainly does help quite a bit to come from a "name" med school. One of my mentors has been on the admissions committee for med school for many years, and has seen many med students progress into residency. These are his words.

 

[Law2Doc]

This will vary widely from one residency site to another, and even more in between the programs at that site. Unlike medical school admissions, there are a lot fewer people involved at looking at your application for residency. One program director at my school told us that he personally reviews every application they get, and he personally separates them into the "definitely interview, maybe interview, and don't interview" piles. If HE thinks your school is good, then it is. If he thinks your school is bad, then it is. His opinion might be extremely different from anyone else's, and you won't know the specifics. This is very different from medical school, where your application is reviewed by a committee. If you apply to a program that few people from your school apply to, and the one guy from your class that did his residency there was an idiot, it will probably be held against you. On the other hand, if your school has sent dozens of superstars through that residency program, you've got an advantage. This PD that spoke to us said that the criteria he used the most was your Step 1 score and whether or not you attended a US medical school.

I wanted to emphasize the bold above -- this is how it really works at this level. A PD couldn't care less what school US News thinks is good. What he knows is that the last 4 residents he got from XYZ SOM were stellar, so he's happy to take another. Or he got burned by a real loser he took from QRS SOM last year, so he's gunshy about taking another QRS grad. Doesn't matter that US News says QRS is one of the best in the country -- all he knows is they pumped out at least one crummy resident and he got burned. So it's much more human, and less about rankings.

 

[Law2Doc]

...One of my mentors has been on the admissions committee for med school for many years, and has seen many med students progress into residency. These are his words.

Again, a recent survey by PDs, which you can find on the recent thread on SDN says it doesn't really matter at all. I'd tend to believe the PD group as a whole over one individual.

 

[handetalc]

I wanted to emphasize the bold above -- this is how it really works at this level. A PD couldn't care less what school US News thinks is good. What he knows is that the last 4 residents he got from XYZ SOM were stellar, so he's happy to take another. Or he got burned by a real loser he took from QRS SOM last year, so he's gunshy about taking another QRS grad. Doesn't matter that US News says QRS is one of the best in the country -- all he knows is they pumped out at least one crummy resident and he got burned. So it's much more human, and less about rankings.

Good point

 

[handetalc]

Again, a recent survey by PDs, which you can find on the recent thread on SDN says it doesn't really matter at all. I'd tend to believe the PD group as a whole over one individual.

If that's what you read, you're probably more right about this than I am then. I'm going by personal experience...but numbers and data speak more truthfully than isolated anecdotes.

Can you link me to the survey please?

 

[BlueElmo]

How about M4 year evals/grades? No one mentions these?

 

[metalgearHMN]

How about M4 year evals/grades? No one mentions these?

I've been told M4 is a vacation year or something.

 

[handetalc]

I've been told M4 is a vacation year or something.

Haha, once you submit your applications and start interviewing, M4 year is basically a vacation. And once you match in March, people in general tend to accept that M4s just kind of cruise.

The beginning of M4 year, when students are doing rotations in their specialty of interest and trying to get Honors, is really important. After that, not so much. There is also quite a bit of grade inflation for M4 rotations and electives, so they're taken with a grain of salt in comparison to your M3 rotations which are much more rigorous and structured.

 

[Law2Doc]

How about M4 year evals/grades? No one mentions these?

How you do in your sub-Is and your away rotations is huge. How you do in electives doesn't matter as much because people are taking things they are genuinely thinking of going into, or things that are easy enough to allow for a lot of interview time, so everyone does well in most of these. Bear in mind your real "job" in fourth year is to line up your residency, and everyone at your program knows this. So you will be taking a number of days off from late October until early Feb to be away interviewing. So you plan your schedule accordingly. So yes, you do try to impress folks at that away rotation where you hope to go, and you do try to wow them in your sub-I's so they think you have what it takes to be an intern, but other than that, it's coasting, interviewing, studying for Step 2...

 

[virusgirl]

Thanks Law2Doc and handetalc; this is really helpful to know!

For residencies where research is considered important, does that research need to be done while in medical school, specifically, for it to help you? And does it need to be clinical research in that specialty? I've done a fair amount of basic research and have some publications, but I'd sort of like to spend my summers/electives doing more clinical things if possible.

 

[Law2Doc]

I've been told M4 is a vacation year or something.

Not exactly true, but there are some components of this, yes. You will have one or more sub-Is (sub-internships) where you get to function as an intern (but with a bit more oversight) and that tends to be a harder month or two than those of third year. And you probably will be doing away rotations where you need to impress folks. And you will be doing an application process with interviews which can be stressful. And you probably have to take the two components of Step 2 early in this year. So there will be parts of fourth year that are very hard and trying. But you generally do have more electives to work with, some of which can at some schools be vacation months (meant to allow you to take off ot go interview/study for Step 2, etc) so to this extent it's very different than third year where you had no control over your schedule. A lot of people use this year to take electives in the field they are going into, which can be more, or less intense, depending on what they are going into. You can take that month of pathology where you work 9-5 M-F or that month of transplant where you are on a crazy Q3 schedule -- it's really up to you and your interests. I know about many folks who worked harder in the beginning of 4th year than they did in 3rd year, just as there will be folks going off to harder vs easier residencies. So no, I wouldn't call it a vacation year. More like a year in which you have a very long vacation spread out throughout an otherwise intense and possibly stressful year. Of course after March 19, you have matched and senioritis will set in bigtime.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

For residencies where research is considered important, does that research need to be done while in medical school, specifically, for it to help you? And does it need to be clinical research in that specialty? I've done a fair amount of basic research and have some publications, but I'd sort of like to spend my summers/electives doing more clinical things if possible.

The ideal would be recent research in the field of interest. If the field of interest is more clinically oriented, then clinical research is more useful. If it's broader (eg basic science research on things relating to diabetes, cholesterol, etc would be fine for an IM path) then that is fine. Unlike med school where they just want to see that you have some research basics and so any kind of research is fine, a residency is more specialty specific, and so you aren't going to wow that ortho program director with research you did on malaria. Most people bound for competitive things try to use the summer after first year to do research, and if they have time, try to continue it into second or fourth year (3rd year tends to be harder for research). And then if the program they seek is really research heavy, some folks even take a year off after second or third year to spend doing more targeted research.
I won't say that research done prior to med school doesn't count, but I will say that anything done after you start med school is going to be given more weight. (Sort of like when you applied to med school and nothing you did before college really counted.) If you are going to go into a research heavy path, plan on doing more research in med school. You will be doing more than enough "clinical" things in med school so I wouldn't worry about detracting from that.

 

[BlueElmo]

So for competitive specialties, research is definitely required? Sort of like high Step 1 is required?

 

[flip26]

And then if the program they seek is really research heavy, some folks even take a year off after second or third year to spend doing more targeted research.

It seems like this is a growing trend, taking a 5th year. More med schools seem to promote the possibility of a 5th year.

It also seems like there is a basic flaw to the typical timing of rotations and the selection of a residency before entering the match - it seems, at least from this pre-med's perspective, that med students need to figure out the residency they want before they really have a chance to discover their interests via rotations and electives. I am just curious how current med students and residents feel about this, and wonder if adding a 5th research year is helpful for this beyond the value of the actual research done...and I would like to hear comments on exactly which year should be the research year - after the first 2 years of school, or after year 3? Is the Duke model a good one (2nd year is research year)?.

 

[Law2Doc]

So for competitive specialties, research is definitely required? Sort of like high Step 1 is required?

It's not per se required, but if your numbers are somewhere in the pack, you want additional credentials to make your app stronger. So yeah, if you have competitive, but not unbelievable numbers, and are gunning for one of the more competitive paths, I'd get some research in med school to fill out your ERAS app. Of course if you are shooting for something not so competitive this is less important.

 

[Law2Doc]

It seems like this is a growing trend, taking a 5th year. More med schools seem to promote the possibility of a 5th year.

It also seems like there is a basic flaw to the typical timing of rotations and the selection of a residency before entering the match - it seems, at least from this pre-med's perspective, that med students need to figure out the residency they want before they really have a chance to discover their interests via rotations and electives. I am just curious how current med students and residents feel about this, and wonder if adding a 5th research year is helpful for this beyond the value of the actual research done...and I would like to hear comments on exactly which year should be the research year - after the first 2 years of school, or after year 3? Is the Duke model a good one (2nd year is research year)?.

That's exactly the case -- you finish the core rotations, probably need to try and line up away rotations toward the end of third year, and maybe have 1-2 electives in 4th year before you really need to know what you are shooting for before it's time to do your app. Folks who haven't figured it out yet, or decide they want something they need to improve their credentials with research for, tend to need to seriously consider an additional year. I don't think it happens enough to call it a trend, but I absolutely agree that the timing is lousy. A research year would give you time to figure things out as well as get some med school level research under your belt, but with med school already 4 years long and most people looking at at least 4 more years of training after school, many people don't have the stomach to build another year into the process as mandatory.

 

[deleted212936]

Since you need Dean's LoR for residency, I start wondering: do you work closely with the Dean so that he knows you well enough? Do you need LoRs from other professors, too?

 

[smq123]

Since you need Dean's LoR for residency, I start wondering: do you work closely with the Dean so that he knows you well enough? Do you need LoRs from other professors, too?

- The name "Dean's letter" is outdated and inaccurate.

It's a form letter that can be written by anyone - it's very rarely ever written by the official dean of your med school. And, since it is a form letter, you could ask 5 different people to write one, and it would turn out pretty much the same each time.

Basically, it says what your class rank is, what your extracurriculars were, and what your Step 1 score was. It then just lists little snippets from your 3rd and 4th year rotation evaluations. Like I said, there is no room for personal commentary from the person writing it. So, no, there is absolutely no need to get to know the dean personally.

The preferred term now is "MSPE" = Medical School Performance Evaluation.

- You do need LORs from attending physicians that you work with during your rotations. You gather those during the end of 3rd year/beginning of 4th year. At most schools, there will be plenty of opportunity to work with attendings who can write you those letters, though.

 

[45408]

How about M4 year evals/grades? No one mentions these?

The first three months of M4 are often pretty crucial. I'm doing my surgery sub-I right away in July, because that'll be my time to shine. I would really like to get honors, and I need to form a few good relationships with faculty, so that they can write me an LOR (surgeon residencies want letters from surgeons). In July, you'll have a fresh batch of interns, most of whom don't even know where to find the cafeteria, since they're from another school/city/state/country. All of the M3s are totally wet behind the ears (as I most certainly was - we were a bunch of idiots trying to figure out how send a page to our resident). I'll definitely be working as hard as I can. It will not be a slacker month in the slightest. On the other hand, I do have a few elective rotations that will be pretty easy with pretty low expectations for the M4s. I am trying to get a medicine sub-I in April, and I'll still have to put in a good effort, since that's always a full-time rotation. Obviously, there will be less pressure since I'll have matched.

 

[yrdong]

I'm a third year med student and still confused about the residency matching process. Can I apply to more than one specialty in various places? I've my preferred specialty. But since it's highly competitive, I would like to have a backup specialty to apply to as well in order to ensure my chance of getting matched. Any thoughts on this?

 

[richse]

The ideal would be recent research in the field of interest. If the field of interest is more clinically oriented, then clinical research is more useful. If it's broader (eg basic science research on things relating to diabetes, cholesterol, etc would be fine for an IM path) then that is fine. Unlike med school where they just want to see that you have some research basics and so any kind of research is fine, a residency is more specialty specific, and so you aren't going to wow that ortho program director with research you did on malaria. Most people bound for competitive things try to use the summer after first year to do research, and if they have time, try to continue it into second or fourth year (3rd year tends to be harder for research). And then if the program they seek is really research heavy, some folks even take a year off after second or third year to spend doing more targeted research.
I won't say that research done prior to med school doesn't count, but I will say that anything done after you start med school is going to be given more weight. (Sort of like when you applied to med school and nothing you did before college really counted.) If you are going to go into a research heavy path, plan on doing more research in med school. You will be doing more than enough "clinical" things in med school so I wouldn't worry about detracting from that.

If you are heavily involved in research prior to starting med school and then a paper or two comes out of that research while you are a first year do you think they will be looked at as inferior also?

 

[225557]

I would like to clarify some things on this thread. I just matched into my #1 choice for residency and I did aim high. I also matched into integrated plastic surgery which is supposedly the hardest residency to get into it. So what I say is based on applying to the toughest to get into specialties such as plastics, derm, etc...

1. Matching is based on several things: Step 1 score, 3rd year grades, away Sub-I rotations 4th year, and whether some people on here believe it or not class rank and AOA. I went to several interviews where I was directly asked "what is your class rank" and also told- "everyone here is AOA" as some programs used that as a cutoff for who they interview or not. Because lets face it- when there are 250 applicants for 2 spots they can and are that picky. This means that your first and second year grades do matter because if you don't do well- you will not be up for AOA, you will not look as stellar on paper as your deans letter will state what your rank is and top notch places do look at that.

2. Reputation of school- I think that this is huge. It is mainly important as to who is writing your letters of recommendation. In the closer knit fields like plastic surgery a letter from a big name, (most likely at a bigger, known school) speaks much louder than a letter from someone no one has heard of at a smaller school. I am from a school without a plastics department and that actually killed my chances at a lot of places. At one interview I actually overheard outside the door my interviewers laughing at 2 of my letters stating "have you ever heard of this person?" In fact- I think the only thing that saved me for the interviews I got was the letter I got when I did my away rotation. Everyone commented on it. However, in the end you can match into anything from ANY school if you are stellar on paper and do some aways and get the letters.

But, as I said to start this only truly applies to those aiming for plastics, derm, optho, etc... Those that are applying to IM, Peds, etc.. can match at great places without AOA, or a high class rank.

Trust me- it is more competetive than you can ever imagine and every little bit helps... Just work hard throughout medical school, do what you can and give yourself every opportunity to do what you want.

 

[225557]

I'm a third year med student and still confused about the residency matching process. Can I apply to more than one specialty in various places? I've my preferred specialty. But since it's highly competitive, I would like to have a backup specialty to apply to as well in order to ensure my chance of getting matched. Any thoughts on this?

Yes, you can absolutely apply to more than one program, however you should have different LOR, a different personal statement for each, and the ability to gush about both of the fields you are applying to at each of the interviews. The places you apply to do not know what or where else you applied to and can and probably will ask so you may have to lie or tell them. On your match list you simply rank in order where you want to go in whatever you interviewed for. Interviewing and scheduling both can be tedious though so beware. It is very common though for the highly competitive specialties though to apply to more than one thing.

 

[Law2Doc]

If you are heavily involved in research prior to starting med school and then a paper or two comes out of that research while you are a first year do you think they will be looked at as inferior also?

Yes. The "best" research is going to be anything you did in med school. The stuff you did before is still "good", but lots of folks did undergrad research with publications (some coming out in first year), and while that was deemed as "useful" on the ERAS application, it still wasn't deemed quite as valuable as stuff done while in med school. Much like what you did in high school doesn't mean much on AMCAS compared to stuff you did in college. At least that's what the mentors told me. You list it all on the application anyhow. But the sad truth is that there is nothing you can do before you start med school to help you in terms of residency. That's when the game starts.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Trust me- it is more competitive than you can ever imagine and every little bit helps... Just work hard throughout medical school, do what you can and give yourself every opportunity to do what you want.

While I agree with this part of your post, I kind of disagree with the rest of it. While absolutely "every little bit helps", there are high yield things and low yield things. Basic science year grades and school name are low yield things. Things that, if you are a solid on everything else, you can basically ignore. As I said above if you have a high USMLE and great rotation evals and a good away rotation and solid research, very few residencies are going to say "but gee you only got a pass in your first year classes or you went to a state school". It doesn't happen, or at least not enough to care about. I kind of think the folks who have these things and did well tend to overestimate their weight in their end result, while the folks who did equally well without these things can give a more realistic assessment.

 

[225557]

While I agree with this part of your post, I kind of disagree with the rest of it. While absolutely "every little bit helps", there are high yield things and low yield things. Basic science year grades and school name are low yield things. Things that, if you are a solid on everything else, you can basically ignore. As I said above if you have a high USMLE and great rotation evals and a good away rotation and solid research, very few residencies are going to say "but gee you only got a pass in your first year classes or you went to a state school". It doesn't happen, or at least not enough to care about. I kind of think the folks who have these things and did well tend to overestimate their weight in their end result, while the folks who did equally well without these things can give a more realistic assessment.

I agree somewhat- as I said before, first year grades only matter in the context of your overall class rank, which leads to things like AOA. Both class rank and AOA DO matter. But, having only applied and gone through the process for plastic surgery I am unsure of other fields. Also, coming from a state school will also affect your ability to get interviews at certain places. Trust me.... Also, residency directors at the places I interviewed have made comments stating that the only thing hurting me for a lot of places is my school because of no plastics department and no big names at MY program to write letters and call for me as others have.

If you don't mind me asking, what did you match into? If it is not plastic surgery then I do not think you can make such certain facts....

 

[Rzarecta]

I]

If you don't mind me asking, what did you match into? If it is not plastic surgery then I do not think you can make such certain facts....

Derm is probably close to if not just as competitive.

 

[Law2Doc]

I agree somewhat- as I said before, first year grades only matter in the context of your overall class rank, which leads to things like AOA. Both class rank and AOA DO matter. But, having only applied and gone through the process for plastic surgery I am unsure of other fields. Also, coming from a state school will also affect your ability to get interviews at certain places. Trust me.... Also, residency directors at the places I interviewed have made comments stating that the only thing hurting me for a lot of places is my school because of no plastics department and no big names at MY program to write letters and call for me as others have....

I know a number of people who matched into the top plastics programs and none were AOA or had top school pedigrees. All had impressive board scores and research.

PDs have published lists of what they consider important and Step 1 and rotations always top the list, basic science year grades and school name are always toward the bottom. AOA tends to be in the middle, and it should be noted that a number of schools don't even have AOA, and at a lot of schools it's not purely academically based (there is a popularity component). So I stand by my suggestion that AOA is like a cherry on top of a sundae -- nice if you can get it, but it doesn't mean the sundae isn't still appetizing to residencies without it. You can believe what you like, but you may want to take stock of your residency colleagues when you start -- you might be surprised.

And FWIW, IMHO you really shouldn't list your status as a "resident" until you actually start (not when you match) -- it can be misleading to readers who may think that you are giving advice with that level of experience. This was discussed on another thread where too many premeds were listing themselves as med students before they started, and people thought they were getting advice from folks who actually knew something about succeeding in med school, not college seniors.

 

[aloepathic]

Wait, I've been told AOA was based on Step 1 Score and 3rd year grades, NOT preclinical grades. Is this wrong? Does it vary by school?

 

[Rzarecta]

Wait, I've been told AOA was based on Step 1 Score and 3rd year grades, NOT preclinical grades. Is this wrong? Does it vary by school?

Varies by school. Some schools (like mine) base AOA only on third year clerkship performance with little/no input from performance in your basic science years. Other schools have Junior AOA which is based on basic science years and Senior AOA which is based on a combination of basic science and third year. I haven't heard of Step 1 being a factor in AOA, at least it isn't at my school.

 

[225557]

I know a number of people who matched into the top plastics programs and none were AOA or had top school pedigrees. All had impressive board scores and research.

PDs have published lists of what they consider important and Step 1 and rotations always top the list, basic science year grades and school name are always toward the bottom. AOA tends to be in the middle, and it should be noted that a number of schools don't even have AOA, and at a lot of schools it's not purely academically based (there is a popularity component). So I stand by my suggestion that AOA is like a cherry on top of a sundae -- nice if you can get it, but it doesn't mean the sundae isn't still appetizing to residencies without it. You can believe what you like, but you may want to take stock of your residency colleagues when you start -- you might be surprised.



And FWIW, IMHO you really shouldn't list your status as a "resident" until you actually start (not when you match) -- it can be misleading to readers who may think that you are giving advice with that level of experience. This was discussed on another thread where too many premeds were listing themselves as med students before they started, and people thought they were getting advice from folks who actually knew something about succeeding in med school, not college seniors.

In my opinion- once you sign the contract, submit all paperwork that is now finalized, get your medical license, and graduate medical school you can call yourself a resident. And, I know my colleagues from rotating there and I stand by what I said. It helps you get more interviews, gets you into some you would not have gotten, and does help. I never said it was the only thing, nor did I say it was one of the most important. I said it was more important than you were giving credit for in some very distinct specialties.

Also, who would you rather take advice from? A 4th year resident who forgot the process and is unaware of the changes over the last 4 years.... Someone who just did it has the best idea of what to expect as it is so fresh. By your response I am guessing that you are either still a MS3 or a new 4 or you did not match where you wanted as you seem rather disgruntled.... I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else. I just offered my opinions on the topic and apparently since they differ from your opinion (which by the number of posts you have I am guessing you have a big opinion) you have to get all bent out of shape.

 

[Law2Doc]

In my opinion- once you sign the contract, submit all paperwork that is now finalized, get your medical license, and graduate medical school you can call yourself a resident. ...
Also, who would you rather take advice from? A 4th year resident who forgot the process and is unaware of the changes over the last 4 years.......

A bunch of us actually had a long discussion about this on another thread, and the consensus seemed to be that the status was more important to the readers, who were trying to put a context to what was being posted. Meaning if you put down "medical student" or "resident" it suggests you know what it's like to be a medical student or resident, respectively, not that you have done the paperwork but not yet started. So it's misleading to the readers. That's all I'm saying. Too many people jumping the gun and creating misperceptions on here. No biggie. You probably ought not change your status to resident until late June/early July.

 

[Law2Doc]

...I am sorry if I offended you or anyone else. I just offered my opinions on the topic and apparently since they differ from your opinion (which by the number of posts you have I am guessing you have a big opinion) you have to get all bent out of shape.

Dude, I wasn't offended by your posts until this current one, where you try to suggest that I am somehow disgruntled. Chill. This is called debate. Two different opinions. One is wrong. I have my own view as to which, as do you. It's healthy debate, not being "bent out of shape". You are not the first person I have disagreed with nor will you be the last. This is normal discourse on SDN; if you can't handle being contradicted without having to make up fantasies as to why folks who disagree with you must be disgruntled, you may not be ready for this board.

 

[225557]

A bunch of us actually had a long discussion about this on another thread, and the consensus seemed to be that the status was more important to the readers, who were trying to put a context to what was being posted. Meaning if you put down "medical student" or "resident" it suggests you know what it's like to be a medical student or resident, respectively, not that you have done the paperwork but not yet started. So it's misleading to the readers. That's all I'm saying. Too many people jumping the gun and creating misperceptions on here. No biggie. You probably ought not change your status to resident until late June/early July.

Oh, thank you master for letting me know when I can change my status on an anonymous internet forum. I personally do not care what you and other random people decided on the topic. I did not realize that you were the person who designated all of the rules. When did you become the moderator or ruler of this site? So, what can I have for dinner tonight?

 

[chiz2kul]

Its getting hot in here

 

[Law2Doc]

... When did you become the moderator or ruler of this site? So, what can I have for dinner tonight?

Um, I actually am an assistant moderator on this site. Happened a couple of years ago. I was just informing you that the topic of status was discussed, and you are going against the grain. But you can call yourself an attending for all I care -- I'm just saying a lot of us consider it misleading.

And you can have pizza for dinner tonight. Enjoy.

 

[225557]

Um, I actually am an assistant moderator on this site. Happened a couple of years ago. I was just informing you that the topic of status was discussed, and you are going against the grain. But you can call yourself an attending for all I care -- I'm just saying a lot of us consider it misleading.

And you can have pizza for dinner tonight. Enjoy.

sweet, that is actually what I wanted for dinner. You are good. Seriously. So what was the decided name for those who are not medical students (have graduated) and are waiting to start residency?

 

[Law2Doc]

sweet, that is actually what I wanted for dinner. You are good. Seriously. So what was the decided name for those who are not medical students (have graduated) and are waiting to start residency?

medical student. Until you actually start residency.