Current (and future?) state of being a MD/DO

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vm26

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Worth reading.

(pasted from original reddit post)

An editorial in JAMA neurology last month promoted using Mid-levels who they concede have no neurology training to deliver neurologic care:

Advanced Practice Clinicians—Neurology’s Underused Resource

This Viewpoint discusses the benefit of integrating advanced practice clinicians into neurology practices to improve patient access and optimize care.
jamanetwork.com
jamanetwork.com
Several colleagues and I responded to this formally. This post is a report of what happened with that response
Understanding that many will not have access, due to a paywall, here are some excerpts from the Editorial:
_____________________________
“Currently, the supply of neurology clinicians is inadequate to meet the demands of patients, and the distribution of neurologists in the US highlights inequitable access to care.
From the perspective of APCs, there is little or no exposure to neurology in training, making it less likely they would consider neurology…
Often,APCs express dissatisfaction about not being allowed to operate to the fullest extent of their license as clinicians. A disproportionate amount of their time is relegated to answering emails and calls rather than actually seeing patients. ….
Others report limited opportunities for advancement and leadership roles. Some neurology departments promote APCs on academic tracks, but in many cases, there is no clear path for promotion. ….
In addition to financial concerns, a time commitment of 3 to 6 months is required to integrate and educate an APC in the neurology setting. When supported in their role as a clinician, retention and productivity are improved …
After hiring an APC, onboarding could be combined with resident and medical student educational offerings, encouraging a culture of inclusiveness…”
________________
In response to this editorial, members of the board of Physicians for Patient Protection wrote a letter to the editor. Here is the text of that letter:
_______________________________________________
S. Andrew Josephson, MD
Editor, JAMA Neurology
Dear Dr. Josephson,
On behalf of the board of Physicians for Patient Protection, an organization of 12,500 practicing physicians and physicians-in-training, we are writing in response to the recent Viewpoint “Advanced Practice Clinicians—Neurology’s Underused Resource” (JAMA Neurol. published online May 24, 2021. doi:10.1001/jamaneurol.2021.1416).
NP Cook and Dr. Schwarz note that the demand for neurology services outpaces the supply of physicians, pointing out that new patients can expect to wait approximately a month for a neurology appointment. The authors propose increased utilization of non-physician practitioners (NPPs)—namely, nurse practitioners (NPs) and physician assistants (PAs)—to increase patient access.
While the article argues for an increased use of NPs and PAs based on a shortage of board-certified neurologists, it also acknowledges a lack of neurology qualifications of NPs and PAs (“there is little or no exposure to neurology in training”). When primary care or other specialty physicians refer their patients to a neurologist, they are seeking care from an expert with more knowledge and training in the field of neurology, and not from a practitioner with less training than themselves. This begs the question: what is the appropriate extent of neurologic care that can (or should) be provided by non-physician practitioners with little-to-no exposure or training in the field of neurology?
The authors propose ideas to address training deficits, such as including NPs and PAs in resident and medical student educational offerings. The challenge with this suggestion is that many NPPs lack the foundational understanding of medicine and neuroanatomy that is required of physicians and is essential for the development of independent critical thinking and problem solving. NPs and PAs have a fraction of the training of physicians, with many students completing their coursework through online programs with open book exams. In addition, the nursing model on which NPs train is completely different from that of physicians, lacking a comprehensive training of physical examination skills, differential diagnosis formation, and formal neurology training.
The paper suggests that neurologists create templates and onboarding materials to assist NPPs in learning how to care for neurology patients. The time and financial investment required to get an NPP to reach educational milestones appropriate for patient care should not be portrayed as a failure of neurologists to accommodate non-neurologists in the field. For example, although fourth-year medical students have significantly more clinical hours of training than the average new NP/ PA, we doubt that the authors would hire unmatched medical school graduates to independently evaluate new and returning neurology patients. The opportunity for ‘on-the-job training’ would not be offered to unmatched physician graduates, who are expected to continue formal training to obtain adequate expertise. If a physician who has not yet completed training is not expected to be competent to provide patient care, this must be the same expectation for NPs and PAs.
While most NPs and PAs in neurology are currently utilized as physician extenders, the authors note that this leads to “dissatisfaction about not being allowed to operate to the fullest extent of their license as clinicians.” However, helping neurologists care for patients by refilling medications, coordinating care management, and performing routine follow-up visits under a physician’s supervision is an appropriate role for the training of NPPs, and this contribution may help expand access to neurology care while still ensuring that patients receive an accurate diagnosis and treatment plan from a fully trained neurologist.
According to National Residency Match data, there were 1441 applicants for only 701 PGY-1 Neurology positions. If there is a shortage of neurologists, it is obvious where the problem lies. Increasing residency positions would be the effective and responsible way to address a neurology shortage. This is particularly important in preventing health inequities. While the authors note that “the distribution of neurologists in the US highlights inequitable access to care,” they neglect to mention that the approach of replacing neurologists with lesser trained substitutes is likely to contribute to worsening health inequity. Who will determine which patients receive care from fully trained neurologists and who will be forced to see non-physician practitioners?
Ultimately, both physicians and non-physician practitioners share the goal of providing excellent patient care. Our letter is not intended to call into question this shared motivation, merely to clarify that neurology patients deserve to be cared for by neurologists, who can be assisted by other healthcare professionals with tasks suited to their training and skill level.
Sincerely,
Rebekah Bernard MD Alyson Maloy MD Roy Stoller DO
Phillip Shaffer MD Purvi Parikh MD Carmen Kavali, MD
_____________________________________________________
The response to this letter by the JAMA neurology editorial board was:
_________________________________________
RE: Letter to the Editor
Dear Dr Bernard:
Thank you for your recent letter to the editor. Unfortunately, because of the many submissions we receive and our space limitations in the Letters section, we are unable to publish your letter in JAMA Neurology.
After considering the opinions of our editorial staff, we determined your letter did not receive a high enough priority rating for publication in JAMA Neurology.
We do appreciate you taking time to write to us and thank you for the opportunity to look at your letter.
Sincerely yours,
The Associate Editors of JAMA Neurology
and
S. Andrew Josephson, MD 
Editor-in-Chief 
JAMA Neurology
_____________________________________
COMMENTS:
Claiming space limitations is odd in an era when many journals have online communications sections. If JAMA Neurology wished to have this, they certainly could
JAMA Neurology published this full-throated endorsement of APC care in Neurology, including ideas for increasing their use in Neurology. This is obviously controversial.
They received a considered letter objecting to this, written by six concerned physicians. A portion of this letter pointed out how weak their claim of needing APCs because of manpower limitations in Neurology was, given they had accepted only 50% of applicants into Neurology Residencies.
The process of science inherently requires controversial positions be given full airing, with opposing viewpoints being presented on equal footing. The refusal of this journal to publish a reasoned response to the original article’s controversial positions and assertions is the antithesis of science. It demonstrates they have a position they wish to promote, and they will not publish information that challenges there preferred position. It further calls into question the ability of the journal to be objective in all aspects of their operation.
The journal has thus told us they have no space for our counter-opinion. Thus – they reveal they have an editorial opinion – a position they are pushing – that is unrelated to science, but is a political statement promoting non-physician care of patients.
This journal has an agenda that will replace physician care with, as they admit, less qualified mid-level care
Ironically and hypocritically, they are supporting a process that is counter to their statements about health equity. Some of the patients of this department will get expert care, others will get care from people who, as they say, have no training in the field. There could be nothing more inequitable.
 
As a non-academic attending, let me share a few thoughts on this.

First: I don't care what JAMA opinion articles say about pretty much anything, haven't for years.

Second, if a neurologist I refer to starts letting their midlevels do most of the work, I will find a new neurologist to refer my legitimate neuro patients to (those guys can get all the fibromyalgia, pseudoseizures, and headaches).

Third, 1 month for an appointment isn't actually that bad. Most cognitive specialties take that long (rheum, endocrine, derm).
 
As a non-academic attending, let me share a few thoughts on this.

First: I don't care what JAMA opinion articles say about pretty much anything, haven't for years.

Second, if a neurologist I refer to starts letting their midlevels do most of the work, I will find a new neurologist to refer my legitimate neuro patients to (those guys can get all the fibromyalgia, pseudoseizures, and headaches).

Third, 1 month for an appointment isn't actually that bad. Most cognitive specialties take that long (rheum, endocrine, derm).

I don't care what JAMA/AMA etc have to say but it seems that large academic centers have strong ties to lobbying efforts which makes this concerning. As a non-academic PP rad, I'm realizing that the lobbying needs of my niche are nothing compared to those of the large academic centers/HC systems who apparently embrace mid-levels. Anecdotally, the HC system that my current group contracts with loves the ED midlevels as imaging exams (and technically fees) have sky-rocketed. I would not want to be a current medical student/resident facing a future where I could potentially be competing with a mid-level for a job (see ED forums for more on this topic).
 
We desperately need a master thread for all things related to midlevels, and not clutter the forums weekly hourly with midlevel threads
FTFY


This article has already been posted in the neurology subforum, and probably elsewhere.
 
We desperately need a master thread for all things related to midlevels, and not clutter the forums weekly with midlevel threads
I think one of the admins (may have been yourself) mentioned having a midlevels forum in your admins chat and that this was quickly shot down. Idk if y'all can create a poll or something to show that this is likely a hotly desired forum by your constituents here.
 
I think one of the admins (may have been yourself) mentioned having a midlevels forum in your admins chat and that this was quickly shot down. Idk if y'all can create a poll or something to show that this is likely a hotly desired forum by your constituents here.

Lawpy isn't an admin. The gold badges can look misleading at times. I love Lawps, but he's just a very dedicated SDN member.
 
FTFY


This article has already been posted in the neurology subforum, and probably elsewhere.

Yes I know but thought it would be important for others that may not visit the neurology forum have access to this info.

Apologize for the mid-level clutter. I think a lot of this has to do with rapidly accelerating mid-level scope creep that many physicians are finally becoming aware of. We are also becoming more aware of the larger forces that are facilitating this trend (including fellow physicians).
 
This was my favorite quote:
While most NPs and PAs in neurology are currently utilized as physician extenders, the authors note that this leads to “dissatisfaction about not being allowed to operate to the fullest extent of their license as clinicians.”

I mean, who cares?! The general role of advanced practitioners in the speciality setting is just that, physician extenders. If they don't like it, then they don't have to do it. That's the bottom line.

From a more practical standpoint, I think issues like this just the consequence of two things: 1) many diagnostic and treatment algorithms are protocolized nowadays (first line --> second line --> third line, etc.) where as this used to be not as common 2 decades ago and 2) because things are protocolized, you really don't need a lot of molecular biology or pathophysiology knowledge to implement them. I mean, clearly there are times were protocols don't work and people fall off them for various reasons, but generally speaking, protocols create essentially an easy to follow recipe for medicine. This allows less trained people to practice them. I don't know how you address that aspect of medicine though because its becoming more common, not less. This is also coupled with the fact that a good number of physicians are 1) becoming more subspecialized even within their current field (ie the tuberous sclerosis epileptologist) and 2) are often willing to give up managing the "bread and butter" aspects of their own specialty so they can focus on the more rare.
 
All very good points. I'd add that we don't use midlevels correctly. I believe rather than seeing a mid-level on the first visit, the patient should see the physician, or both. Then the physician can prescribe follow up visits with the mid-level. As an anecdote, my sister in law had ALS. During her initial evaluation, a Neuro NP attempted to perform a diagnostic spinal puncture. Should have been a chip shot, she was like 5'4", 130 lb. The NP quit after multiple attempts and my Brother's protests. Anesthesia was called and finished in 5 min. My Brother said anesthesia was successful on the first attempt. Midlevels don't have nearly enough training to do these things.
 
Yes I know but thought it would be important for others that may not visit the neurology forum have access to this info.

Apologize for the mid-level clutter. I think a lot of this has to do with rapidly accelerating mid-level scope creep that many physicians are finally becoming aware of. We are also becoming more aware of the larger forces that are facilitating this trend (including fellow physicians).
The midlevel issue has been known and posted repeatedly on SDN for several years. The fact that IRL physicians who don't follow SDN or reddit are being aware of the problem now doesn't justify worsening the clutter even more. I don't think a separate subforum is needed. Just have one simple thread and post all the threads/discussions there.

Or redirect all midlevel threads to Topics in Healthcare, since that forum is well... everything related to healthcare topics
 
The midlevel issue has been known and posted repeatedly on SDN for several years. The fact that IRL physicians who don't follow SDN or reddit are being aware of the problem now doesn't justify worsening the clutter even more. I don't think a separate subforum is needed. Just have one simple thread and post all the threads/discussions there.

Or redirect all midlevel threads to Topics in Healthcare, since that forum is well... everything related to healthcare topics

Fair enough. Many (if not most) physicians are not up to speed with month-to-month developments with respect to each specialty, and with every new bill/legislation (state/federal) that is a threat to their or other specialties. They donate to their professional society/lobby group and assume that their profession is being advocated for. This turns out to be not the case and is becoming more transparent. A significant chunk of physicians will be retiring FI in the next 5-8 years so they could give a rats a$$ about the future of the field. Seems like you've known all of this for years so I will refrain from attempting to clutter this forum. Good luck!
 
I don’t like the clutter either. But if midlevel stuff is cast off into it’s own forum/thread, people will largely ignore how rapidly this issues progresses. It’ll just be <5 people talking about it forever.
 
I don’t like the clutter either. But if midlevel stuff is cast off into it’s own forum/thread, people will largely ignore how rapidly this issues progresses. It’ll just be <5 people talking about it forever.
A subforum can be made right in med students general forum with a sticky info thread in allo directing to it.

And tbh, the past several midlevel threads literally devolved into the same 5 or so people talking about it forever. It's repetitive and tiring, with lack of fresh insights from many other SDNers who basically checked out early in page 1

Also i'm repeating the suggestion of using Topics in Healthcare forum, since that's the purpose of the forum. Maybe that forum needs to be relocated somewhere closer to top of SDN menu page to gain better visibility
 
I don’t like the clutter either. But if midlevel stuff is cast off into it’s own forum/thread, people will largely ignore how rapidly this issues progresses. It’ll just be <5 people talking about it forever.

I don't follow this particular community or this site closely so I can't comment on what happens when one posts about mid-levels and the resultant clutter. Maybe it gets out of hand and redundant, and thats unfortunate. When I post something like this, there are no ulterior motives. I'm established in my career and have a family and young kids. I don't have the time or bandwidth to d*ck around. Just trying to give others that are currently in the same shoes that I was 15-17 years ago, the same info that I would have want to have. This mid-level cr*p is unfortunately a dynamic, rapidly evolving issue.
 
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