Current MD schools that do not require MCAT? (non-early acceptance)

[UCDavispremed92]

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The OP has a point that the new MCAT is less accessible to those who lack access to research opportunities and/or coursework that exposes students to critical reading of scientific literature as part of the research project and coursework. The heavy emphasis on passages and movement toward making the passages include the dense language and specialized vocabulary of science articles means that students who get an old style memorization driven science education and/or procedure robot research experience are at a big disadvantage going into MCAT prep.

It's probably a lot easier for students at T20 undergrad powerhouses and honors programs at flagship universities to get access to these opportunities. Everybody knows that students who get into these programs skew heavily toward students from higher SES.

This is a good characterization of what I was saying. While research elements and passages were not absent the old MCAT, they are far far more central to the new one. The most cynical reading would be to say that social science emphasis on SES/social categories is somewhat of a compensatory addition to the fact this is an exam designed for T20 students to excel in. Look at the low MCAT scores of high GPA students at poorer states' less than renowned state universities of the south/non-coastal west...these institutions have an enormous in-state preference as a protective measure for residents against T20-type students, or those with preternatural abilities aligned with their areas of emphasis, so virtually refuse admission to all out-of state students.

While it objectively true that "GPA is nothing without MCAT," I hear "you've yet to be exposed to T20-like criteria." I don't think this is irrelevant because it would save some high-GPA students (and anyone else) from non-T20 (or who don't have particular developed/inherent aptitude for their primary considerations) that they still had a "long ways to go." It probably could have saved some of those 40% of >3.7 students without an admission more than a little bit of grief to stop thinking of the MCAT as the indicator of your true aptitude and potential in medicine, but as an entirely new game with entirely new rules, on which all of their prior success has little bearing.

 

[deleted972488]

This is a good characterization of what I was saying. While research elements and passages were not absent the old MCAT, they are far far more central to the new one. The most cynical reading would be to say that social science emphasis on SES/social categories is somewhat of a compensatory addition to the fact this is an exam designed for T20 students to excel in. Look at the low MCAT scores of high GPA students at poorer states' less than renowned state universities of the south/non-coastal west...these institutions have an enormous in-state preference as a protective measure for residents against T20-type students, or those with preternatural abilities aligned with their areas of emphasis, so virtually refuse admission to all out-of state students.

While it objectively true that "GPA is nothing without MCAT," I hear "you've yet to be exposed to T20-like criteria." I don't think this is irrelevant because it would save some high-GPA students (and anyone else) from non-T20 (or who don't have particular developed/inherent aptitude for their primary considerations) that they still had a "long ways to go." It probably could have saved some of those 40% of >3.7 students without an admission more than a little bit of grief to stop thinking of the MCAT as the indicator of your true aptitude and potential in medicine, but as an entirely new game with entirely new rules, on which all of their prior success has little bearing.

There are some valid criticisms of the MCAT, but from what I can tell, they do not even apply to you. You have mentioned that are white, and judging by your username, you went to a very good school with plenty of resources to help you do well on the MCAT. Regardless, complaining about it will not get you into medical school.

 

[907914]

as a protective measure for residents against T20-type students

This premise you present is false. These schools do not have a high in-state preference because they want to give their students a shot 'as a protective measure against T20-type students.' These schools have high in-state preference because, as state institutions, they are directed by their respective state(s) to produce physicians who are likely to serve within their state. The poorest performing areas are also typically the most medically under served. Thus, states like Alabama, Idaho, Montana, Eastern Washington, Oregon, Wyoming, Texas, Georgia (and so on) have absolutely no interest in bringing in a New York or California Big-wig T20 type applicant to train them as a physician with tax-payer subsidized tuition in order for them to then take that education and that skill set elsewhere.

It probably could have saved some of those 40% of >3.7 students without an admission more than a little bit of grief to stop thinking of the MCAT as the indicator of your true aptitude and potential in medicine, but as an entirely new game with entirely new rules, on which all of their prior success has little bearing

This too is a false premise. GPA literally has nothing to do with MCAT. Anyone can cram before an exam or BS an essay and get a 4.0. The evaluation of non-memorized materials and critical thinking/scientific reasoning present in the new MCAT is ABSOLUTELY more valuable than the GPA.

 

[UCDavispremed92]

There are some valid criticisms of the MCAT, but from what I can tell, they do not even apply to you. You have mentioned that are white, and judging by your username, you went to a very good school with plenty of resources to do well on the MCAT. Regardless, complaining about it will not get you into medical school.

My only point was that, while my characterization of the MCAT might happen to be self-serving, there is something to it I've not heard these points broached elsewhere. Of course, the primary concern with the MCAT is your score and it's implications for your app, but I don't think that should compel everyone to indefinitely postpone all criticism.

I will also add that I do not believe my education, which I very much enjoyed and wish this exam were better aligned to, necessarily prepared me well for the form/emphasis of the MCAT, just for its content (where applicable because I took only bare required courses). Where this is a topic of practical use for me is in the conclusion: the test is as much about this hidden curriculum around research, certain areas of reasoning, and various tidbits (which I've never in my life been exposed to despite having performed well in the relevant coursework) as the actual content knowledge that is a base requirement for the exam. For others who find their MCAT performance on practice tests or just feel a sense of discomfort with its basic structure, both from T20/state U or high/low SES (though my suspicion is disproportionately the latter in either case) it's best to assume you're starting from scratch and assume that as your outlook. Where I've had difficulty coming around to this is the strength of my prior performance through years of hard work in areas that would be thought indicative of high performance on the exam and indignation with the idea that all of that could be nullified in one sitting....

 

[deleted972488]

My only point was that, while my characterization of the MCAT might happen to be self-serving, there is something to it I've not heard these points broached elsewhere. Of course, the primary concern with the MCAT is your score and it's implications for your app, but I don't think that should compel everyone to indefinitely postpone all criticism.

I will also add that I do not believe my education, which I very much enjoyed and wish this exam were better aligned to, necessarily prepared me well for the form/emphasis of the MCAT, just for its content (where applicable because I took only bare required courses). Where this is a topic of practical use for me is in the conclusion: the test is as much about this hidden curriculum around research, certain areas of reasoning, and various tidbits (which I've never in my life been exposed to despite having performed well in the relevant coursework) as the actual content knowledge that is a base requirement for the exam. For others who find their MCAT performance on practice tests or just feel a sense of discomfort with its basic structure, both from T20/state U or high/low SES (though my suspicion is disproportionately the latter in either case) it's best to assume you're starting from scratch and assume that as your outlook. Where I've had difficulty coming around to this is the strength of my prior performance through years of hard work in areas that would be thought indicative of high performance on the exam and indignation with the idea that all of that could be nullified in one sitting....

I acknowledged that there are valid criticisms of the MCAT, but again, they do not apply to your situation. You went to a very, very good school that should have prepared you to do well. I went to a school no one has heard of and did well.

 

[907914]

Is it like my school where it is "Cardinal Direction, Name of state, College/University"? Those no names are the best kinds of schools lol

 

[deleted972488]

Rankings

UC Davis is a tier one research university. Several of our programs are among the best in the country and have been for decades. We hope you will help us continue this legacy and solve some of the world’s greatest challenges.

www.ucdavis.edu

 

[Goro]

My only point was that, while my characterization of the MCAT might happen to be self-serving, there is something to it I've not heard these points broached elsewhere. Of course, the primary concern with the MCAT is your score and it's implications for your app, but I don't think that should compel everyone to indefinitely postpone all criticism.

I will also add that I do not believe my education, which I very much enjoyed and wish this exam were better aligned to, necessarily prepared me well for the form/emphasis of the MCAT, just for its content (where applicable because I took only bare required courses). Where this is a topic of practical use for me is in the conclusion: the test is as much about this hidden curriculum around research, certain areas of reasoning, and various tidbits (which I've never in my life been exposed to despite having performed well in the relevant coursework) as the actual content knowledge that is a base requirement for the exam. For others who find their MCAT performance on practice tests or just feel a sense of discomfort with its basic structure, both from T20/state U or high/low SES (though my suspicion is disproportionately the latter in either case) it's best to assume you're starting from scratch and assume that as your outlook. Where I've had difficulty coming around to this is the strength of my prior performance through years of hard work in areas that would be thought indicative of high performance on the exam and indignation with the idea that all of that could be nullified in one sitting....

My schools gets a fair number of students from the UCs, UCD among them. If you were not prepared well for the MCAT, that's on you, not your school.

 

[Seihai]

My schools gets a fair number of students from the UCs, UCD among them. If you were not prepared well for the MCAT, that's on you, not your school.

I'm confused as to why he's using the MCAT as his bat for school-to-school disparity. Wouldn't a lower fruit be talking about grade inflation/deflation and how it varies from school to school (not that I agree with this being a significant factor)?

 

[efle]

In This Thread: People who haven't even taken the MCAT convince each other that it's not an aptitude test.

See how you feel afterwards. I promise, the thing that separates out the high scores isn't that they had easier access to research-for-credits at their college.

In fact, the best performing group on the MCAT don't come from biological science backgrounds, or any basic science for that matter. The best performers come from math/stats. As long as you prepare halfway properly you'll know the formulas and terms you need to know. Your plateau isn't determined by whether you experienced a lab job or what your science classes were like. It's determined by your reasoning/critical thinking/problem solving/whatever you want to call the magic that makes someone "good at standardized tests".

 

[Goro]

I'm confused as to why he's using the MCAT as his bat for school-to-school disparity. Wouldn't a lower fruit be talking about grade inflation/deflation and how it varies from school to school (not that I agree with this being a significant factor)?

To tell the truth, I have no idea what he's trying to say.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

See how you feel afterwards. I promise, the thing that separates out the high scores isn't that they had easier access to research-for-credits at their college.

Yeah that was a solid LOL statement.

 

[Seihai]

To tell the truth, I have no idea what he's trying to say.

I think his argument is that the MCAT exacerbates disparities between schools and socioeconomic statuses? I have no personal opinion on the matter, though I do wish some of the better MCAT prep materials were more accessible to people from lower SES.

 

[deleted972488]

OP: I shouldn’t have to take the MCAT because it’s unfair to people who don’t attend top research institutions.

OP: *attended a top research institution*

 

[Seihai]

OP: I shouldn’t have to take the MCAT because it’s unfair to people who don’t attend top research institutions.

OP: *attended a top research institution*

Honestly, I don't think this is a fair perspective. Just because someone benefited from the current state of affairs doesn't mean that they can't be opposed to how it's unfair (or how they perceive it as unfair) for those that it doesn't benefit. That's like saying that the richest people can't oppose policies that benefit them for the greater good.

I don't have an opinion on whether the MCAT is fair or not, but I don't think this sentiment of silencing someone for voicing their concerns about a situation that they benefited from is a good one.

 

[deleted972488]

Honestly, I don't think this is a fair perspective. Just because someone benefited from the current state of affairs doesn't mean that they can't be opposed to how it's unfair (or how they perceive it as unfair) for those that it doesn't benefit. That's like saying that the richest people can't oppose policies that benefit them for the greater good.

I don't have an opinion on whether the MCAT is fair or not, but I don't think this sentiment of silencing someone for voicing their concerns about a situation that they benefited from is a good one.

They have a right to express opinions about the test’s limitations. I agree it is unfair to certain people. I also think OP is not one of those people and shouldn’t use it as an excuse.

 

[907914]

I do wish some of the better MCAT prep materials were more accessible to people from lower SES.

Literally AAMC has partnered with Khan Academy to make one of the best prep materials FOR FREE and anyone who has FAP gets the AAMC official material for free. FAP is not perfect, but there are sooooo many free and cheap resources for the MCAT it is not even funny. The access to MCAT prep is not in affordability but in knowledge/awareness and timing (low SES are usually too busy working to have time to study as much)

 

[Seihai]

Literally AAMC has partnered with Khan Academy to make one of the best prep materials FOR FREE and anyone who has FAP gets the AAMC official material for free. FAP is not perfect, but there are sooooo many free and cheap resources for the MCAT it is not even funny. The access to MCAT prep is not in affordability but in knowledge/awareness and timing (low SES are usually too busy working to have time to study as much)

By no means am I claiming that there's not a wide breadth of material out there for people who are of lower SES. My gripe is primarily with access to third party materials (like ******) or prep courses (which I personally didn't bother to use).

It's absolutely possible for someone to do well with just the AAMC + KA material, but I don't think it's as easy as someone who has access to more practice questions or other material. I've heard many complaints about the science-based material from KA not necessarily being specific for the MCAT.

You also bring up a good point about awareness and timing, which is another gripe that I have with standardized tests in general.

 

[Seihai]

They have a right to express opinions about the test’s limitations. I agree it is unfair to certain people. I also think OP is not one of those people and shouldn’t use it as an excuse.

Fair enough - I was taking your comment more out of context because I didn't notice that the person you were talking about was specifically complaining about the MCAT in the case of his situation (where his complaints are kind of unfounded).

 

[Osteosaur]

Had a conversation with a doc who said same thing recently. Acknowledging my personal ignorance to the boards core subject matter (that is discussing the criteria for passage purely in the abstract), I don't believe you need an ~85th percentile on the boards to not be sunk, as is the case for the MCAT.

For me, it's more a matter of loss aversion than objective difficulty of material in question. Studying for clinical scenarios sounds a lot more tolerable than "pseudo-clinical" scenarios, where convolution in passage-making is put on some pedestal as a legitimate proxy for clinical practice. I would suggest willingness to engage in self-flagellation is the confounder in this scenario.

You can fail boards. You can't "fail" the MCAT.

However hard you think you need to work for the MCAT you need to work even harder during M1 and M2.

 

[907914]

who has access to more practice questions or other material

It may just be my personal experience, but I genuinely feel there are drastic diminishes in return beyond around 50-100 passages in each section plus 4 full lengths...If you are using AAMC based material (KA + AAMC) then that is about enough to learn the patterns of the rest...

 

[907914]

It may just be my personal experience, but I genuinely feel there are drastic diminishes in return beyond around 50-100 passages in each section plus 4 full lengths...If you are using AAMC based material (KA + AAMC) then that is about enough to learn the patterns of the rest...

Granted, this is coming from someone who did not necessarily prioritize and MCAT studying. I prioritize family time above all else and I know full well I probably would’ve scored two or three points higher if I put in the same amount of effort as my contemporaries. But, all else equal I still believe that free or near mandatory stuff like the AMC material is a sufficient amount.

 

[MyOdyssey]

In This Thread: People who haven't even taken the MCAT convince each other that it's not an aptitude test.

See how you feel afterwards. I promise, the thing that separates out the high scores isn't that they had easier access to research-for-credits at their college.

In fact, the best performing group on the MCAT don't come from biological science backgrounds, or any basic science for that matter. The best performers come from math/stats. As long as you prepare halfway properly you'll know the formulas and terms you need to know. Your plateau isn't determined by whether you experienced a lab job or what your science classes were like. It's determined by your reasoning/critical thinking/problem solving/whatever you want to call the magic that makes someone "good at standardized tests".

Isn't the MCAT in fact a reading comprehension test?

Also, how does the claim that it's an aptitude test square with the fact that it can be studied for so that individuals who drastically improve their scores from their first diagnostic test to their actual test?

 

[Seihai]

It may just be my personal experience, but I genuinely feel there are drastic diminishes in return beyond around 50-100 passages in each section plus 4 full lengths...If you are using AAMC based material (KA + AAMC) then that is about enough to learn the patterns of the rest...

Granted, this is coming from someone who did not necessarily prioritize and MCAT studying. I prioritize family time above all else and I know full well I probably would’ve scored two or three points higher if I put in the same amount of effort as my contemporaries. But, all else equal I still believe that free or near mandatory stuff like the AMC material is a sufficient amount.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally only used Kaplan books for content review and AAMC material for testing, but I don't think that just having AAMC material is sufficient to get a 95%+ score unless you are already strong on the content prior to beginning such material.

 

[907914]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally only used Kaplan books for content review and AAMC material for testing, but I don't think that just having AAMC material is sufficient to get a 95%+ score unless you are already strong on the content prior to beginning such material.

And I think that is the key difference.Content review should not be done at the same time as practice questions - they are two separate phases. I definitely understand your perspective as very very few students focus on longitudinal studying like this...but I came out with a 521 so I can verify that free materials are more than sufficient (

 

[907914]

Isn't the MCAT in fact a reading comprehension test?

Also, how does the claim that it's an aptitude test square with the fact that it can be studied for so that individuals who drastically improve their scores from their first diagnostic test to their actual test?

I think what makes it an aptitude test is where people’s plateaus fall. It is indeed a reading and thinking test. Some people plateau for 3 months at 520+, some plateau at 495...there are many many test takers who genuinely cannot score above a certain threshold.

 

[Seihai]

And I think that is the key difference. I did 6 months of MCAT studying with 3 months of solely content review and then 3 months of strictly questions from AAMC and Khan. Content review should not be done at the same time as practice questions - they are two separate phases. And for content review, I just used free resources (KA, CrashCourse, MCAT-review.org etc.) and the whole 6 months was maybe 2 hrs a day 2 or 3 times a week up until the last week (and FLs, of course). I definitely understand your perspective as very very few students focus on longitudinal studying like this...but I cam out with a 521 so I can verify that free materials are more than sufficient (and it would have been an even higher score if I gave it more attention than I did).

For someone with low access to resources, it seems difficult for me to see how they could be strong on content review prior to starting questions from Khan and AAMC. Of course, taking undergraduate courses can prepare you well, but not every applicant has access to good professors, and the MCAT often has at least a few topics that they didn't see in their courses. Khan is great for content review in some ways, but not others, and it's not necessarily the style of delivery that a lot of people are comfortable with for the sciences.

I personally also came out with a good score (comparable to yours) and I believe that free materials weren't sufficient to getting me to do well on my exam (Kaplan books were essential for my content review). I think everyone's mileage varies on whether the free materials are enough, but my point is that people who only have access to free material are essentially locked into studying a certain way that doesn't necessarily align with their studying style.

 

[907914]

but my point is that people who only have access to free material are essentially locked into studying a certain way that doesn't necessarily align with their studying style.

Most certainly. I think I am just arguing that they can be sufficient. Maybe I just have the specific learning style that worked well with it?

Although I will concede, KA is not the best for content review. I predominantly use CrashCourse on YouTube and Wikipedia lol

 

[Seihai]

Most certainly. I think I am just arguing that they can be sufficient. Maybe I just have the specific learning style that worked well with it?

Although I will concede, KA is not the best for content review. I predominantly use CrashCourse on YouTube and Wikipedia lol

I'll concede as well. You're a great example of how the free materials can work with enough effort, and that third party material isn't necessarily the barrier to breaching a 520+.

I also made use of CrashCourse for some of the more esoteric organic chemistry and biochemistry material!

 

[faerie62]

Imo it's not impossible to do well with just the free material, but it does makes it easier to do well when you have access to quality classes, expensive resources, and study time without having to work to support a living. Not guaranteed, but it's a leg up. I know people who spent $1000+ on MULTIPLE prep courses and it blows my mind...
That said it doesn't sound like the OP fits any of the valid complaints and should just take the MCAT 🤣

 

[deleted972488]

I know people who spent $1000+ on MULTIPLE prep courses and it blows my mind...

Those courses seem like a huge waste of money to me and I can’t see how they would be helpful, but I also didn’t take one so I guess I can’t know for sure.

FWIW, I self-studied while working full-time and did well.

 

[deleted967981]

Those courses seem like a huge waste of money to me and I can’t see how they would be helpful, but I also didn’t take one so I guess I can’t know for sure.

FWIW, I self-studied while working full-time and did well.

I have a friend who has taken the MCAT 3 times, has taken one of those expensive courses, and still cannot break a 495. She has a 3.9 gpa though so maybe it’s a test taking issue.

Those courses definitely don’t guarantee success though.

 

[Seihai]

I have a friend who has taken the MCAT 3 times, has taken one of those expensive courses, and still cannot break a 495. She has a 3.9 gpa though so maybe it’s a test taking issue.

Those courses definitely don’t guarantee success though.

Having a high GPA doesn't mean much in terms of being able to do well on the MCAT. I've seen people with 4.0s get <500 and people with 3.3s get 520+s.

Test-taking issues contribute a bit, but there's a bit more to it than that in my opinion.

 

[efle]

Isn't the MCAT in fact a reading comprehension test?

Also, how does the claim that it's an aptitude test square with the fact that it can be studied for so that individuals who drastically improve their scores from their first diagnostic test to their actual test?

Partly. But there's also plenty of questions where everyone understands exactly what's being asked, and only some people can reason their way to selecting the right answer. Think of a classic Ochem question where they tell you the reactants and ask you to identify the majority product.

You can dramatically improve if you've got content gaps you need a refresher on, like for the above question you'd need to have recently reviewed the fundamental rules of how things like to react so that you could apply those rules to the problem. If someone has finished reviewing content and is sitting around 510 though, that's a plateau determined by their test-taking/problem solving/whatever. What separates them from someone sitting at 520 is not anything related to who reviewed more, or longer, or spent the most hours running experiments on mice.

 

[deleted972488]

spent the most hours running experiments on mice.

Definitely me

 

[deleted804295]

Isn't the MCAT in fact a reading comprehension test?

Also, how does the claim that it's an aptitude test square with the fact that it can be studied for so that individuals who drastically improve their scores from their first diagnostic test to their actual test?

It's a reading comprenehsion/reasoning test (choose whatever words fit your fancy) with a couple content based questions sprinkled in.

It's not an aptitude test after a certain amount of practice- I really do think any test if practiced 100 times (including IQ tests) no longer have an ability to be an aptitude test. Even the least gifted students can hammer away at passages for 10 years and eventually get a good score on the exam.

 

[deleted804295]

I have a friend who has taken the MCAT 3 times, has taken one of those expensive courses, and still cannot break a 495. She has a 3.9 gpa though so maybe it’s a test taking issue.

Those courses definitely don’t guarantee success though.

The first issue is being scammed into paying $1000-$5000 on a course based on strategies that can be found online.

I would recommend your friend use SDN for a bit to learn MCAT strategies.

 

[Goro]

It's a reading comprenehsion/reasoning test (choose whatever words fit your fancy) with a couple content based questions sprinkled in.

It's not an aptitude test after a certain amount of practice- I really do think any test if practiced 100 times (including IQ tests) no longer have an ability to be an aptitude test. Even the least gifted students can hammer away at passages for 10 years and eventually get a good score on the exam.

I think that the best descriptor for MCAT is that it is a competency AND judgement test.

 

[ApplyingThisCycleBurner]

Also checking in as someone who worked full-time and scored 95+ percentile. Working and mcat kept me focused because doing one was a break from another. Probably 60 hour weeks though, not impossible.