Current Views of Chiropractic; What Do You See?

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MSKMed said:
My friend, we cannot engage in an educational debate on this topic when you have not even collected or researched the information provided to you. Had you reviewed the links I posted and did a pub search there would be no need for such verbose posts amounting to nothing in the end :)

It's better to read first, gather the information and then formulate an opinion as opposed to shooting from the hip and "go back to do some research".

By way of your post I feel confident in saying we can agree to disagree :) Thanks for directing me to canadaforums.com ;)
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You have again missed the point. Your assertion was poorly defended by your evidence (this was my only point. Not that your claim was inherently false but that you failed to demonstrate it as true with your provided evidence).

If you go back and read I'm confident you will see how the conversation progressed to where we are now. Try to identify the points I actually make rather than assuming I'm making the blanket anti chiro arguments one may expect in this thread.

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Ok, so Mark Erwin DC PhD.

Not an MD so not a clinician. PhD is a very varied term, so let's look at his pubs (as you do with any researcher regardless of title)

Standaert C, Friedly J, Rechtine G, Erwin WM, Lee M, Hennrickson N and Norvell DC Comparative Effectiveness of Exercise, Acupuncture and Spinal Manipulation for Low Back Pain: Spine 1 October 2011 - Volume 36 - Issue - p S120S130 doi: 10.1097/BRS.0b013e31822ef878

Found in Spine, a 2.0 impact factor journal which DOES reach clinicians.

Conclusion:
The studies identified indicate that structured exercise and SMT appear to offer equivalent benefits in terms of pain and functional improvement for those with chronic LBP with clinical benefits evident within 8 weeks of care. However, the level of evidence is low. There is insufficient evidence to comment on the relative benefit of acupuncture compared with either structured exercise or SMT or to address the differential effects of structured exercise, SMT, or acupuncture for specific subgroups of individuals with chronic LBP. There is also insufficient evidence regarding the relative cost-effectiveness of structured exercise, SMT, or acupuncture in the treatment of chronic LBP.
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Hmmmmmmm.....
He also has a series of mouse model papers with real quantifiable methods which do not set out to prove anything but rather seem to interpret things freely (and even seem to debunk in the case of this meta). All things that I had said previously, that the research can very well be good if and only if the researcher is not attempting to validate a pre-held belief.

Once again, your point that "DCs are out there who do meaningful work" is entirely meaningless in the greater context of the thread which was "those DCs who peddle garbage are a threat to public health". This guy's paper claims that a cheaper gym membership is as good for your back pain symptoms (let alone the plethora of other things it is good for) as chiropractic adjustment. :shrug: He isn't the problem by the claims and definitions I have set forward numerous times in this thread.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22705752 another good one that clearly suggests this guy doesn't buy the subluxation mantra.

Moving on:

Pierre Cote, DC.

He seems to have quite a few papers related to public health and a few reviews.

J David Cassidy: He has published almost exclusively reviews (not of real value, just restating the portions of the literature that he finds pertinent).

your MD/DC guy has only 2 papers, one of which is a simple case review. Not terribly interesting and not terribly illuminating as to his motivations for switching.

The point is, I had to do some pretty major digging in order to get the papers these guys have been involved in. Many are doing nothing more than writing comments to ortho and neurosurgical journals complaining when someone publishes a paper that disagrees with their "religion" (a few did this.... and they have nothing other than a few outdated studies or interesting twists on their own literature reviews to land NOT on the conclusion that manipulation is beneficial but only to cast doubt on some researchers claims that it is harmful :smack: )

So when you post a list of these guys and say something to the tune of "why all the hate for DCs? See? They do lot's of good work" and the only way to justify that claim is to spend the better part of an hour digging into and searching out their pubs I would say yeah... you failed to support your claim. Coming back with "well you need to do the legwork before claiming my point as unsupported" is entirely invalid on the basis that I didn't say you were wrong, just said you failed to show with any certainty that you were right. :shrug: The burden of proof is on you when you make a claim, not on me when I says you failed to do so. But since I went ahead and found it for you, you have 1 MD who seems to be largely just a clinician, a few with PhDs, 1 who is publishing against manipulation or at the very very least not in favor of, and several who are writing into journals with "letters to the editor" who are complaining when they see published articles that say something other than their medichlorian count is super high.

So yeah.... not meaningful work in most senses and certainly not meaningful in a way that would shame anyone for being critical of the field.
 
DC is a clinical degree my friend. And Erwin maintains a clinical practice.

Who is talking about subluxation mantra? I haven't mentioned subluxation once in any of my posts?

You are projecting whatever biases you have against chiropractors in an inefficient and irrational manner. I have never ascribed to the theory of subluxation or promoted it in any way, shape or form. If you re-read my posts, you will see that I am against antiquated theories. Yet you appear hell-bent on condemning the entire chiropractic profession, and you seem like the type of person that is not happy until he/she has had the last word.

The manner in which you write along with your pattern of reasoning makes it very difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you, especially since you appear to have a vested interest in attacking the chiropractic profession. Fortunately, the rest of the world does not share your views/opinions.

By the way, you still have not shared your status of education? It is unclear whether you are a student (very likely), or a practicing physician (unlikely, given the nature of your posts).
 
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Furthermore, regarding Erwin's current work: if you had any appreciation for research, which apparently you don't, you would realize that research in disc biology takes time and that no one has answered the questions to the problems he is currently researching. Sorry that he can't "hurry up and finish" to satisfy "your" criteria for meaningful work lol
 
MSKMed said:
DC is a clinical degree my friend. And Erwin maintains a clinical practice.

Who is talking about subluxation mantra? I haven't mentioned subluxation once in any of my posts?

You are projecting whatever biases you have against chiropractors in an inefficient and irrational manner. I have never ascribed to the theory of subluxation or promoted it in any way, shape or form. If you re-read my posts, you will see that I am against antiquated theories. Yet you appear hell-bent on condemning the entire chiropractic profession, and you seem like the type of person that is not happy until he/she has had the last word.

The manner in which you write along with your pattern of reasoning makes it very difficult to have an intelligent conversation with you, especially since you appear to have a vested interest in attacking the chiropractic profession. Fortunately, the rest of the world does not share your views/opinions.

By the way, you still have not shared your status of education? It is unclear whether you are a student (very likely), or a practicing physician (unlikely, given the nature of your posts).
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:rolleyes:
You're also quite new to the thread. See, this is what happens when you insert yourself into a conversation and expect everyone to forget all the context that you can't seem to juggle :shrug:

soooo much fail in this post. You should know exactly what my lvl of education is. It's clearly stated with each post I make. Also, I don't hold myself responsible for your inability to track a simple conversation. And "clincial" is used very broadly by you here. They are as much clinicians as they are doctors, both designations being arbitrarily self-assigned.

You think people are being meanies to chiropractors when they are just holding them to the same standards as physicians. I get it. Unless you have anything better to do other than produce links where a significant minority are actually proving the others in the field false, I have no further comment.
 
Clearly you enjoy playing in the sandbox and are gunning for the "Keyboard Champion" award. I would like to engage in conversations with you once you have a few years of clinical practice under your belt and are able to stay on topic, rather than refer to posts that transpired prior to my arrival to this thread and use that as an excuse at humor :)

I'm surprised you did not pursue law over medicine given your propensity to argue in a childish manner.
 
Irony floweth forth :rolleyes:

Go find something more productive to do rather than dragging your duct-tape soapbox into a thread you clearly need to catch up on before opening your mouth. :thumbup: What exactly does clinical experience have to do with this thread oh fellow medical student who can't be bothered to read the tag 1/2 inch below my handle?
 
Again, I don't hold myself responsible for you confusing a poignant response with one that is emotionally charged. You didn't come here to discuss anything :thumbup: im out until you bring something worthwhile to the table.
 
"What exactly does clinical experience have to do with this thread"

Hold this thought until you complete your residency :)

The reckless manner in which you string your thoughts together will change drastically with time, maturity, and experience in the workforce. Go ahead and roll your eyes, yawn, do whatever you feel is necessary to make yourself feel good, but having no relevant experience other than reading books coupled with the mindset to attack and argue any point that you may not have considered in the past will not serve you well during your clinical training and you will pay dearly for these mistakes at the behest of your clinical mentors.

Yes, I am your colleague in that I am a fellow medical student, however, my world is not as black and white as yours is (I'm assuming you have already taken behavioural science to know what the term "splitting" means ;) )
 
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Yes, and you aren't using it correctly. Bodes well.... :oops:


But hey way to take a disagreement personally and come back with literally nothing of value to the discussion to add other than to act like a butthurt baby about it. You sure showed me :rolleyes: with all the clinic and real world experience you got there.
 
Ignored :D

Facetguy, please come back, this guy operates at a level barely suggestive of opposable thumbs and thinks incorrectly throwing out med vocab he learned just this week is a suitable substitution for his god awful links from earlier. You're at least a decent sport and able to hang in there with these things :thumbup: make this thread less suck again please :D
 
Sorry I hurt your feelings. I know wait, don't tell me....I missed your point again lol
 
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MSKMed said:
This message is hidden because MSKMed is on your ignore list.
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:confused::confused:

I mean for realz, for someone tossing about psych terms and complaining about others wanting to be keyboard champs... ever come across the phrase "projection" in your fancy schmancy behavioral science book learnin'? ;):thumbup: It's nice knowing that you will just continue to rage-face even though I won't see any of it. Glad I could help you feel like a tough guy. I am here to help after all :D
 
This thread has become stoopid
 
Why don't DCs embrace science like USDOs did?
This is mostly addressed to the DCs.
 
Because their entire existence would vanish when people realized all they were doing was treating back pain about as well as NSAIDs.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Because their entire existence would vanish when people realized all they were doing was treating back pain about as well as NSAIDs.
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Of course that's the answer. Just cure all back pain with Advil. You're a genius.
 
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If it was up to me, chiropractic would be banned as an illegal practice of medicine, unless they embrace science and become like DOs or PTs.
 
Robin des Bois said:
If it was up to me, chiropractic would be banned as an illegal practice of medicine, unless they embrace science and become like DOs or PTs.
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Thank you, Robin. You sound very well informed on the issue. But unfortunately (for you) it's not up to you.
 
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Chiropractic is useless. They are only useful for some stuff like low back pain, but we can train PTs to do this.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Because their entire existence would vanish when people realized all they were doing was treating back pain about as well as NSAIDs.
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As a FM resident who spends far too much time trying to convince patients that their backs will heal given time, I wish I had a local chiropractor that I trusted to send these people to.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
As a FM resident who spends far too much time trying to convince patients that their backs will heal given time, I wish I had a local chiropractor that I trusted to send these people to.
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How about a masseuse?
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
The only ones around that take insurance are either with the PTs, see above post, or with the chiros.
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Last I heard , only a few states include chiropractic care. Private insurance is another thing....

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NeuroSpeed said:
Why not send them to an OMM specialist DO? Would be covered most likely. And considering my recent PT bills, maybe even cheaper.

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The only ones of those we have are my fellow residents (2) who are busy enough without all of my back pain patients.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Because their entire existence would vanish when people realized all they were doing was treating back pain about as well as NSAIDs.
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facetguy said:
Of course that's the answer. Just cure all back pain with Advil. You're a genius.
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I am not the one who spent 4 years learning a modality that is no better than advil... just putting bthat one out there
 
Pretty old post but I'll sound off. Nobody questioned the usefulness of manipulation to treat back pain. Unfortunately chiropractic is based on the sad trio of false biomechanics, passive therapy and science bashing. Imagine what would happen if kinesiology or orthopedics used false biomechanics-artificial hips would be snapping out of their sockets, etc. But because chiropractic doesn't have any hard endpoints nobody thinks to question them on it. If anyone thinks they don't use false biomech just look at the subjects covered on their national licensing exams and school curriculums, the techniques are all based on it and will never be updated (Gonstead, diversified, etc). My next point is why are DC programs teaching students that manipulation can do the impossible: magically stabilize loose ligaments and muscles? For proof, notice how their licensing exams don't require any hours of active rehabilitation or even passive mobilization. Yes folks, manipulation does it all, just like fishmonger DD Palmer said in 1895.

Using research showing that manipulation helps a few conditions doesn't justify 100+ years of errors and a reluctance to self correct. Chiropractic is not scientific and is not trustworthy. Anyone telling you otherwise has his hand in the cookie jar.
 
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jakeislove said:
@ cdmguy,

Did you enroll in an MD school?
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No. Around the time I quit chiropractic I contracted a chronic bartonella spp. infection from a disabled man's pet cat and this started impairing my mental faculties so there is no way I could have handled the workload. Later, this combined with epstein barr virus infection and disabled me. The MDs couldn't put the pieces together and I ended up with a disgnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome, with all the skepticism that entails. I've been improving on an experimental regimen using supplements but all the antibacterial and antiviral medications I tried were ineffective.
 
Robin des Bois said:
Why don't DCs embrace science like USDOs did?
This is mostly addressed to the DCs.
Click to expand...

State chiropractic practice laws define chiropractic as quackery, the attempt to cure biomechanical lesions with manipulation. Practice laws in 50 states would have to be changed, a daunting task. It would be a public relations nightmare for the field to actually admit that the practices being taught and used as quackery. They currently just say the MDs are economically biased to rebut. MD groups are against it as scope expansion and encroachment. And there is a large group of DCs that think metaphysically and just won't give up the quackery. At the present time DC is just a perversion of PT scope. They need to be shut down.

Osteopathy treated manipulation as just another treatment, realized expansion was needed and reached consensus on the issue to get it done.
 
I saw a chiropractor on and off for years to death with just getting stiff and so on. Initially afterwards, I'd feel great, but then I'd always need to get seen again before too long. This summer I visited a PT to get my neck and hand looked at. It was like going to the chiropractor, only with things staying fixed.
 
PTs have standardized traning in rehab, DCs don't.
 
Robin des Bois said:
If it was up to me, chiropractic would be banned as an illegal practice of medicine, unless they embrace science and become like DOs or PTs.
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Thank God there aren't too many people like you around. Well, there are many more in the medical mainstream than among regular people, but my observation is that most of these critiques cannot tell the difference between a spastic and a tight muscle and could probably not even confidently tell you where C7 is in many cases.

Again, why do you care? Since you are dead ST against it, why? It is definitely not because it is so enormously dangerous.
 
I often does some musculoskeletal procedures with a PMR doc. He has hired his own chiro and MT. We also employ a NUCCA trained one and have another Chiro office doing spinal decompressions.

The soccer team I work with have their own chiropractor on the team.

IMHO, I don't see tons of musculoskeletal specialists that bombastically chase chiropractic all day. Many of the chiro haters cannot even do proper SLR exams. The hate against chiro is just like the hate against DO's (from high-minded MD's), the demonization of BHRT practitioners, the ridicule of hypnosis or even EMRD to treat PTSD.

So man of these people are no nothing's and cannot tell you NROM of people without looking it up first. The same people often cannot even read a back X-RAY, which chirps in general are awesome at.

None, I am not a chiropractor, ATM I am taking OMT training as well to add to my SM practice. (I'm only an MD).
 
Cost to benefit ratio: low risk but large negative consequence (deadly stroke) = avoid chiropractic, favor PT.

As for NUCCA chiroquacktic.

"The minor atlas subluxations routinely found by NUCCA chiropractors have not been proven to be significant."
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-problem-with-chiropractic-nucca/

lame-duck-in-the-crosshairs.png
 
facetguy said:
These are all legit concerns. I, like most of us unfortunately, know closely several families impacted by autism. I think the key issue is whether there is indeed benefit from any treatment, regardless of who renders it or whether it's covered by insurance. The sad truth is that there isn't much in terms of highly effective treatment for autistic kids, at least not in an across-the-board fashion. If a family has decided to make some type of dietary change, for example, and the child makes some progress, who gets to assign the value of that effect? I agree that if anyone in healthcare, chiro or not, were to knowingly rip off these people for financial gain, then yes, string them up. What I object to is the automatic assumption that the non-MD (or the MD using "alternative treatments") is a scumbag. How about the MD who sees this kid over and over, does nothing for him, yet continues to take the insurance money month after month, year after year? Is that MD a scumbag?
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Someone who does HVHA on someone is suddenly chastised for that and if they could, they would find a pretext to take licenses away from him/her, due to their conspiratory litanies of " misinformation".

An anestheiologist that has sex with a nurse in the call rom when his pager goes off and he doesn't show up in 30+ minutes, moves to another state after causing irreversible harm to a baby in need of sectioning.

Still, the high-minded mainstream will not police heir own, but rather prefer to demonize CAMP's.

I totally agree with you about the physician who essentially is a better coder than a doctor. What makes THESE people any holier or more sacrosanct remains a mystery to me.

A while back a larger study over epidural and protracted labor was published showing almost a doubling of RR. I read the original study and the retorts that follows. The physician that did this got more incoming than Trump gets from the Republican Party on a regular day even though the study was fine. The knee-jerk response was to stand up and attack him.

Yes, the assumption that we CAM practitioners are all a bunch of greedy unethical frauds can easily be refuted by simply typing in "MD gross misconduct"; "MD Medicare fraud" or simply looking at WHO is actually the rich SOB. Allopaths who come out with such blanket statements should get just as much ( if not waaaaay more) pushback from the CAM society. We are starting to have more influence. It is my impression that medical students are more open to it; residents (and wisely so) more likely to be silent or simply agree with consensus, while establishment attendings probably have the lowest acceptance to new thoughts here. Note that being open to something does not mean you believe or are uninformed. The CAM society will keep growing and the AMA will keep exciting the majority of physicians about as much as that thing you just dumped into the bowl, IMHO.
 
DrMason said:
Someone who does HVHA on someone is suddenly chastised for that and if they could, they would find a pretext to take licenses away from him/her, due to their conspiratory litanies of " misinformation".

An anestheiologist that has sex with a nurse in the call rom when his pager goes off and he doesn't show up in 30+ minutes, moves to another state after causing irreversible harm to a baby in need of sectioning.

Still, the high-minded mainstream will not police heir own, but rather prefer to demonize CAMP's.

I totally agree with you about the physician who essentially is a better coder than a doctor. What makes THESE people any holier or more sacrosanct remains a mystery to me.

A while back a larger study over epidural and protracted labor was published showing almost a doubling of RR. I read the original study and the retorts that follows. The physician that did this got more incoming than Trump gets from the Republican Party on a regular day even though the study was fine. The knee-jerk response was to stand up and attack him.

Yes, the assumption that we CAM practitioners are all a bunch of greedy unethical frauds can easily be refuted by simply typing in "MD gross misconduct"; "MD Medicare fraud" or simply looking at WHO is actually the rich SOB. Allopaths who come out with such blanket statements should get just as much ( if not waaaaay more) pushback from the CAM society. We are starting to have more influence. It is my impression that medical students are more open to it; residents (and wisely so) more likely to be silent or simply agree with consensus, while establishment attendings probably have the lowest acceptance to new thoughts here. Note that being open to something does not mean you believe or are uninformed. The CAM society will keep growing and the AMA will keep exciting the majority of physicians about as much as that thing you just dumped into the bowl, IMHO.
Click to expand...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
 
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