"Cutters"

[dopaminophile]

when i took my friend to see a counselor she was constantly questioned about suicidal tendencies so it's not out of the question and has to be addressed

Suicide certainly should be addressed with a counselor, but I think the point that people here are trying to make is that self-injury is not the same thing at all as suicidal behavior. Again, the two are correlated and so the point should be addressed, but self-injurers don't necessarily want to kill themselves.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[chloejane]

Hey, I drifted in from another topic and saw this... I'm an ex-crisis counselor. It is so incredilby important that these girls get help as soon as possible.... things like this generally start with some sort of untreated depression which may be the root of the problem. Cutting provides them with what they feel is a form of control over their emotions... although an unhealthy one. If you feel close enough to them to confront them about what they are doing, that would be a start. However, you must realize that the problem is derived from some, much deeper pain... they do need professional help. If you can convince them to seek that out, that might be fine, but also, you don't live with them.... as much as they might hate you for doing this, you need to tell someone else (parents if they are responsive and willing to help or a school counselor that knows the correct next steps to take). Throughout all of this though, be clear that you only did this for their well being and that you are there to support them on their journey to wellness. Sometimes this attitude doesn't help and will make it hard on you, but if it helps them, its more than likely worth it.
If you need advice or to talk feel free to PM me.

Good luck!!

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Suicide certainly should be addressed with a counselor, but I think the point that people here are trying to make is that self-injury is not the same thing at all as suicidal behavior. Again, the two are correlated and so the point should be addressed, but self-injurers don't necessarily want to kill themselves.

well i know that; i don't think anyone was arguing that self-injury defintely leads to suicide

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Hey, I drifted in from another topic and saw this... I'm an ex-crisis counselor. It is so incredilby important that these girls get help as soon as possible.... things like this generally start with some sort of untreated depression which may be the root of the problem. Cutting provides them with what they feel is a form of control over their emotions... although an unhealthy one. If you feel close enough to them to confront them about what they are doing, that would be a start. However, you must realize that the problem is derived from some, much deeper pain... they do need professional help. If you can convince them to seek that out, that might be fine, but also, you don't live with them.... as much as they might hate you for doing this, you need to tell someone else (parents if they are responsive and willing to help or a school counselor that knows the correct next steps to take). Throughout all of this though, be clear that you only did this for their well being and that you are there to support them on their journey to wellness. Sometimes this attitude doesn't help and will make it hard on you, but if it helps them, its more than likely worth it.
If you need advice or to talk feel free to PM me.

Good luck!!

finally someone who agrees with me...that if they won't seek help on their own you must go to someone who will take charge to get them help

 

[dopaminophile]

What are the next steps going to be then? This friend goes and tells a counselor, who then contacts the person and confronts them about the problem. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I would think that if a friend can't get someone into therepy then a stranger probably can't. Either way, the friend has lost the SIer's trust and confidence, the SIer has lost control over their situation, and they likely will become even more secretive as they continue to SI. A therepist cannot force someone to seek help. A friend, I feel, has to make themselves available, make the path to therepy easily available, and only go behind the SIer's back if they have good reason to think the person is suicidal.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

What are the next steps going to be then? This friend goes and tells a counselor, who then contacts the person and confronts them about the problem. Maybe I'm wrong on this, but I would think that if a friend can't get someone into therepy then a stranger probably can't. Either way, the friend has lost the SIer's trust and confidence, the SIer has lost control over their situation, and they likely will become even more secretive as they continue to SI. A therepist cannot force someone to seek help. A friend, I feel, has to make themselves available, make the path to therepy easily available, and only go behind the SIer's back if they have good reason to think the person is suicidal.

It depends on the relationship. I'd opt for contacting the parents or some other person close to the cutter rather than a counselor. However when there is no one else available and if I felt the cutter was a potential danger to herself I would contact someone in authority at the school. Once someone at the school knows about it some action must be taken. Hey I wrote an essay once in college that was perceived as if i was suicidal and the next thing I knew I was forced into in a meeting with the prof, dean and psychiatrist. They don't want to take any chances and do not take these things lightly. I extremely doubt the issue would be dropped. The therapist can not force one to seek help but the school can if they feel the person is experiencing severe or potentially serious psychological issues. And yes the SI might feel they lost their trust in you; however in the long run they will finally come to terms that the operson reported it out of true concern and love. BTW, ths is not off the top of my head but working on a crisis hotline i've been trained in this manner.

 

[stinkycheese]

It depends on the relationship. I'd opt for contacting the parents or some other person close to the cutter rather than a counselor.

That could be the worst thing one could do. What if the parents are the problem or have abused their child in the past?

However when there is no one else available and if I felt the cutter was a piotential danger to herself I would contact someone in authority at the school. Once someone at the school knows about it some action must be taken.

That is a betrayal of trust and could result in serious repercussions for your friend. Would you go behind the back of someone who smokes cigarettes to cope? No? Well, self-injury isn't necessarily more harmful than cigarette smoking, in someone with no suicidal ideations who knows how to cut without severing blood vessels. Most cutters are very good at what they do and know how to protect themselves.

It seems to me like Psycho would be inclined to go authorities because this disturbs him, not necessarily because it would be absolutely necessary for his "friend's" health. That's not really fair, and although cutting is disturbing, it's not up to you to decide that your friend should be monitored by the school. People do self-destructive things all the time; just because you're disturbed by one person's way of coping doesn't mean that they are worse off than any other person. It also doesn't mean they're okay. But if you're going to be a doctor then you have to put aside your discomforts to do what's right for your patients and others you are trying to "help."

Hey I wrote an essay once in college that was perceived as if i was suicidal and the next thing I knew I was forced into in a meeting with the prof, dean and psychiatrist. They don't want to take any chances and do not take these things lightly.

Cutting does not equal suicide.
Cutting does not equal suicide.
Cutting does not equal suicide.

I know you're thick-headed and you claim not to be reading this, but people have posted many times about how cutting is not equal to wanting to kill yourself. It can be related; in many (most) cases, it is not.

I extremely doubt the issue would be dropped. The therapist can not force one to seek help but the school can if they feel the person is experiencing severe or potentially serious psychological issues. And yes the SI might feel they lost their trust in you; however in the long run they will finally come to terms that the operson reporte dit out of true concern and love.

Or maybe they'll feel like you stuck your nose into something that didn't need to be put into their permanent school file. That you exposed a private part of them and opened their life up to prejudicial feelings regarding what cutting means.

I have worked with many, many cutters. You think you know best, Psycho. You always think you know best. You're rarely right, and in this case, you're wrong. Unless someone has expressed suicidal ideation, going above their head to school authorities because they cut is a great way to make that "friend" feel betrayed, judged, and treated unfairly.

 

[lorelei]

Stinkycheese is making good points.

I think many cutters have deep underlying problems and probably need help dealing with them. I also think many cutters (most of the ones I've known personally, in fact) have the same problems as every other adolescent and for whatever reason choose this way of dealing - they may be more dramatic, they may feel that physical pain centers them, whatever. For this latter type, it's not the best way to cope (running, for example, would be better) but it's far from being the worst (such as excessive drinking or drugs).

And it's not uncommon. I'm not sure that pathologizing it is the best course of action - all of a sudden we'll have some huge proportion of adolescents being diagnosed with self-injuring, and I just don't think it's actually pathological in all cases. Anecdotally, most of the self-injurers I've known have, in fact, grown out of it.

Like I said, for many people cutting IS a symptom of underlying problems, and encouraging them to get help would be a kind thing to do. Just bear in mind that what they need help for is primarily whatever the underlying problem is.

 

[dopaminophile]

And it's not uncommon. I'm not sure that pathologizing it is the best course of action - all of a sudden we'll have some huge proportion of adolescents being diagnosed with self-injuring, and I just don't think it's actually pathological in all cases. Anecdotally, most of the self-injurers I've known have, in fact, grown out of it.

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by "pathologizing it". Perhaps you mean that it, in itself, is not a disease? I can subscribe to that. Maybe the sudden huge increase of adolescents SIing is a form of fashionable malingering. I'm not sure that it matters whether they're doing it to torment their parents or whether they have BPD when you're talking about whether it's a problem or not. The former may grow out of it, but either way when they're currently cutting it's unhealthy and ought to be addressed.

I'm not entirely sure how many people that SI stop on their own. As I said before, the largest demographic is mid-20s to early 30s. That tells me that either there are two distinct groups of cutters (adolescents that quit then young adults that pick it up in large numbers) or the adolescents don't quit and a smaller portion of young adults pick it up. Does that make sense? My feeling is to the latter scenario and the impression that teens quit is given by the fact that they are practiced, know their limits before they need medical help, and are better at hiding their scars.

 

[dopaminophile]

The therapist can not force one to seek help but the school can if they feel the person is experiencing severe or potentially serious psychological issues.

Welll......... maybe. On the site that I posted a link to earlier they mention some statistics on how much forced therepy helped (hospitalization or mandatory outpatient care) and very few patients felt that it helped with even fewer reporting a cessation of the behavior. If I have time I'll post the exact stats later.

I still feel that mandatory therepy would reinforce the fundamental problem--that the person cuts to feel in control when they don't elsewhere. Mandatory therepy is out of the person's control and I wouldn't think that it'd do much to help the person feel in control.

 

[Dr. Josh]

Stinkycheese is making good points.

I think many cutters have deep underlying problems and probably need help dealing with them. I also think many cutters (most of the ones I've known personally, in fact) have the same problems as every other adolescent and for whatever reason choose this way of dealing - they may be more dramatic, they may feel that physical pain centers them, whatever. For this latter type, it's not the best way to cope (running, for example, would be better) but it's far from being the worst (such as excessive drinking or drugs).

And it's not uncommon. I'm not sure that pathologizing it is the best course of action - all of a sudden we'll have some huge proportion of adolescents being diagnosed with self-injuring, and I just don't think it's actually pathological in all cases. Anecdotally, most of the self-injurers I've known have, in fact, grown out of it.

Like I said, for many people cutting IS a symptom of underlying problems, and encouraging them to get help would be a kind thing to do. Just bear in mind that what they need help for is primarily whatever the underlying problem is.

The only new information I saw stinkycheese post was her attacks on Psycho Doctor. Otherwise dope and others have already verbalized all those points.

 

[lorelei]

Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not entirely clear on what you mean by "pathologizing it". Perhaps you mean that it, in itself, is not a disease? I can subscribe to that. Maybe the sudden huge increase of adolescents SIing is a form of fashionable malingering. I'm not sure that it matters whether they're doing it to torment their parents or whether they have BPD when you're talking about whether it's a problem or not. The former may grow out of it, but either way when they're currently cutting it's unhealthy and ought to be addressed.

I mostly mean treating it as a disease in and of itself, and assuming it's always correlated with all sorts of serious issues like sexual abuse, personality disorders, and the like.

And, of course cutting is unhealthy, but as I mentioned, I think as one of a range of coping options it is far from being the least healthy thing you can do. I'd personally be more concerned about someone who turned to unsafe promiscuous sex, binge drinking, or drugs. But I know that cutting creates a kind of visceral reaction in people, and it's hard to keep from being freaked out.

 

[Dr. Josh]

I mostly mean treating it as a disease in and of itself, and assuming it's always correlated with all sorts of serious issues like sexual abuse, personality disorders, and the like.

And, of course cutting is unhealthy, but as I mentioned, I think as one of a range of coping options it is far from being the least healthy thing you can do. I'd personally be more concerned about someone who turned to unsafe promiscuous sex, binge drinking, or drugs. But I know that cutting creates a kind of visceral reaction in people, and it's hard to keep from being freaked out.

You sound like you support it. Are you a cutter yourself?

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Welll......... maybe. On the site that I posted a link to earlier they mention some statistics on how much forced therepy helped (hospitalization or mandatory outpatient care) and very few patients felt that it helped with even fewer reporting a cessation of the behavior. If I have time I'll post the exact stats later.

I still feel that mandatory therepy would reinforce the fundamental problem--that the person cuts to feel in control when they don't elsewhere. Mandatory therepy is out of the person's control and I wouldn't think that it'd do much to help the person feel in control.

well the poroblem is multi-faceted. You must resolve the feelings and problems that are causing the person to cut to begin with. And the person must learn healthy coping mechanisms. And this is not something that happens over-night; from my experience (which I admit is limited) it's a very long process and not always successful.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

The only new information I saw stinkycheese post was her attacks on Psycho Doctor. Otherwise dope and others have already verbalized all those points.

nice but then again you're not telling anyone something they don't already know...that's always been her style.. Why do you think i have her blocked? I asked her to block me as well but obviously she likes to be able to attack me publically and therefore refuses to block me. The board would not have to deal with some of the garbage if she would have obliged. oh well...

 

[dopaminophile]

Sure... but all of those strategies are a bit above my pay grade. All I can really comment on are strategies for getting someone into therepy so they can take on those issues and make the transitions that they need.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

Sure... but all of those strategies are a bit above my pay grade. All I can really comment on are strategies for getting someone into therepy so they can take on those issues and make the transitions that they need.

??? it's all above my free pay scale as well

 

[pseudoknot]

I mostly mean treating it as a disease in and of itself, and assuming it's always correlated with all sorts of serious issues like sexual abuse, personality disorders, and the like.

I'm not really qualified to say if self injury per se is a disease. The correlation with sexual abuse is not an assumption but rather something that has emerged from research on the issue.

And, of course cutting is unhealthy, but as I mentioned, I think as one of a range of coping options it is far from being the least healthy thing you can do. I'd personally be more concerned about someone who turned to unsafe promiscuous sex, binge drinking, or drugs. But I know that cutting creates a kind of visceral reaction in people, and it's hard to keep from being freaked out.

I agree here. A lot of people find that cutting does something for them that nothing else can do, and I'd be nervous about asking someone to give up an important coping mechanism. I think the analogy to cigarette smoking is pretty good in a way, although cutting is obviously more dangerous in the short term.

 

[lorelei]

You sound like you support it. Are you a cutter yourself?

No, nor have I ever been. I don't support it; I just think it gets blown way out of proportion.