CV length

[Member03326588]

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hi everyone,

one school asks to include a CV with my app, and gives guidelines for what the CV must include. however, in order for me to meet their requirements, my CV will exceed their 2 page max limit. is it okay to go a little bit over, to 2 and a fourth pages?

thanks for the help!

 

[Marissa4usa]

As long as they don't state specific requirements regarding font size and margins, I would just decrease the font size and make the margins a little smaller...oh and you can decrease the space between letters as well and chose a font that is generally smaller.

I don't think you should have a problem getting rid of that extra fourth of a page.

 

[thepug]

As long as they don't state specific requirements regarding font size and margins, I would just decrease the font size and make the margins a little smaller...oh and you can decrease the space between letters as well and chose a font that is generally smaller.

I don't think you should have a problem getting rid of that extra fourth of a page.

Fail. Never do this, it is unprofessional and tacky.

Don't worry about CV length. Just try to be as brief as possible. A lot of applicants will exceed the 2 page limit. Maybe just do not explain beyond bullet points your duties in research labs and that will cut it down.

 

[Marissa4usa]

Fail. Never do this, it is unprofessional and tacky.

I disagree. It's not much text to condense, so I doubt it would even be noticed. Clearly, you don't want to make it obvious (duh), but playing around with a few formatting features that make it so it so it still looks just as professional as it did before, I don't think hurts. Obviously, if it was much more than an extra fourth of a page, it wouldn't work, but sometimes it comes down to literally a few lines that are an important part of your CV but there is no way you can say it fewer words. And I don't see the problem of reducing the font size from 12 to 11.5 or 11or reducing the margin from 1 inch to .9 so that the last syllable of a word doesn't take up a whole new row. At the end of the day there are no strict guidelines what the exact format of CV should look like, anyways.

 

[JockNerd]

Having been on selection committees, review committees, etc: Don't defy simple instructions. It's surprisingly annoying to have numerous applicants (I guarantee several other applicants will think they don't have to follow the instructions, or they'll just not read them) who do not comply with instructions. If it says a 2 page CV, send a 2-page CV. There's nothing to be gained from going a fourth of a page over. My reactions to instruction-defying are typically "Did this person not read the instructions?" or "Does this person really think their experiences are so special or unique that they deserve to get extra space?" Typically the latter is even worse when the rest of the submission is uses space inefficiently.

You'll have to make 2 page CVs for grants and awards in grad school too, btw. I regularly have to reduce my 10+ page CV to a few highlights.

 

[wigflip]

Don't defy simple instructions. It's surprisingly annoying to have numerous applicants (I guarantee several other applicants will think they don't have to follow the instructions, or they'll just not read them) who do not comply with instructions. "Does this person really think their experiences are so special or unique that they deserve to get extra space?"

Keep in mind that for you, your application is your future. For the person/people reading it, it's work. Extra work they may not relish. Even if your CV is a gem, readers probably have to weed through a lot of slop, and it's a drag.

But it's only an extra 1/4 page! Sure, but as JockNerd implies, multiple people will do this, which increases the work load, and it's not company you want to keep because a reluctance to follow instructions can be construed as a sense of entitlement and/or disregard for the reader's time.

Keep in mind too that if someone was reading one CV in isolation, they probably wouldn't be able to tell what the font size or spacing was. When you have a stack of papers in front of you, it's immediately obvious if someone bumped out the margins or bumped down the font, and it's annoying because the reader ends up feeling insulted (i.e. Really? This applicant thinks I'm too stupid to tell the difference?).

 

[Marissa4usa]

Keep in mind too that if someone was reading one CV in isolation, they probably wouldn't be able to tell what the font size or spacing was. When you have a stack of papers in front of you, it's immediately obvious if someone bumped out the margins or bumped down the font, and it's annoying because the reader ends up feeling insulted (i.e. Really? This applicant thinks I'm too stupid to tell the difference?).

I do agree with this. They do give a 2 page limit for a reason. But I also don't think that anybody notices a 1" vs. .09 margin (especially if it's on one side) or if decrease the spacing between letters by a .1 increment. I had to do it a few times for my personal statement because I would have literally had half a sentence on the third page. Also, I think that 11pt font is fully acceptable. Again, if there is no specific requirements, you'll be fine playing around with the format *a little* bit if you're unable to condense your CV.

My $.02

 

[thepug]

12pt 1 inch margins Times New Roman

It does not say this, but rather only specifies a 2 page limit. However the above format is pretty much an unspoken thing.

Cutting down the margins to .9 would be like one line of text, if that as it is only 2 pages. Just cut down the text.

 

[Ollie123]

12pt 1 inch margins Times New Roman

It does not say this, but rather only specifies a 2 page limit. However the above format is pretty much an unspoken thing.

Sure?

Just checked the first three faculty listed in our clinical program. 2 use Arial, one uses Times New Roman. Font sizes ranged from 10-12 (sometimes even within the same CV to differentiate sections), one had 1 inch margins on all sides, one had 0.5 inch margins on all sides, one had 1 inch side margins and 0.5 inch top and bottom. Just to confirm its not just us I checked another university and also found a variety of formats.

You certainly don't want to make it hideous trying to cram everything on 2 pages, but I'd hardly say there is an "unspoken rule" that you must format it that way. This is a CV, not an undergrad paper where everything needs to be spelled out exactly to keep people from using size 18 font and then complaining they got a bad grade when they met the page limit. As long as it looks okay, if they don't specify I'd say you are well within your rights to format it how you want - these aren't standard forms.

That said, I agree with JN that it is good practice cutting things down. Even using what would probably be less controversial tricks (i.e. reducing - NOT ELIMINATING - spacing between paragraphs) can likely knock off a couple lines, and if you knock off a couple more by reducing any "bulk" (e.g. descriptions of research activities, lines that can be combined, excess words that cause additional text wraps, etc.) it shouldn't be hard to reduce.

Undergrad writing is about taking 1 page of information and making it 10. The rest of us spend our days taking 10 pages of information and trying to condense it to one.

 

[Quynh2007]

Sure?

Just checked the first three faculty listed in our clinical program. 2 use Arial, one uses Times New Roman. Font sizes ranged from 10-12 (sometimes even within the same CV to differentiate sections), one had 1 inch margins on all sides, one had 0.5 inch margins on all sides, one had 1 inch side margins and 0.5 inch top and bottom. Just to confirm its not just us I checked another university and also found a variety of formats.

You certainly don't want to make it hideous trying to cram everything on 2 pages, but I'd hardly say there is an "unspoken rule" that you must format it that way. This is a CV, not an undergrad paper where everything needs to be spelled out exactly to keep people from using size 18 font and then complaining they got a bad grade when they met the page limit. As long as it looks okay, if they don't specify I'd say you are well within your rights to format it how you want - these aren't standard forms.

That said, I agree with JN that it is good practice cutting things down. Even using what would probably be less controversial tricks (i.e. reducing - NOT ELIMINATING - spacing between paragraphs) can likely knock off a couple lines, and if you knock off a couple more by reducing any "bulk" (e.g. descriptions of research activities, lines that can be combined, excess words that cause additional text wraps, etc.) it shouldn't be hard to reduce.

Undergrad writing is about taking 1 page of information and taking it 10. The rest of us spend our days taking 10 pages of information and trying to condense it to one.

Agreed. I just spent the past months reducing my 10,000 word article down to 6,000 words for another journal. It was brutal.

 

[Marissa4usa]

12pt 1 inch margins Times New Roman

It does not say this, but rather only specifies a 2 page limit. However the above format is pretty much an unspoken thing.

Cutting down the margins to .9 would be like one line of text, if that as it is only 2 pages. Just cut down the text.

I'd say it's the standard because it mostly adheres to APA guidelines but I think it's far from a rule. I, for example, have always used 11pt font and nobody has ever pointed out to me that it is not acceptable.

And yes, making the margins smaller by a .9 increment isn't much but it can be helpful, e.g. when you have a three letter word that barely got pushed to the next row. I don't think you should cram stuff, it's a good exercise to learn to only present the most relevant information, but I don't think, using formatting to an extent to one's advantage is a big deal.

 

[thepug]

I'd say it's the standard because it mostly adheres to APA guidelines but I think it's far from a rule. I, for example, have always used 11pt font and nobody has ever pointed out to me that it is not acceptable.

And yes, making the margins smaller by a .9 increment isn't much but it can be helpful, e.g. when you have a three letter word that barely got pushed to the next row. I don't think you should cram stuff, it's a good exercise to learn to only present the most relevant information, but I don't think, using formatting to an extent to one's advantage is a big deal.

Then let this be me pointing it out 😉

 

[JockNerd]

I completely gave up on writing anything other than articles bound for APA journals in APA format when I realized that the APA style guide is not in APA format.

Make it 2 pages if they say two pages, but I think within-reason font size changes (let's pretend it's a table! Shrink that font!), single-spacing, and minor margin change (no one will be writing in the margins) is reasonable.

 

[beantownpsych]

I'm sure there are ways to condense your vita--as someone else here mentioned cutting things down is a task that we are frequently faced with in this field (manuscripts, grant applications etc). The last thing you want to do is annoy people reading your application so if they say 2 pages make it 2 pages!

 

[paramour]

I do agree with this. They do give a 2 page limit for a reason. But I also don't think that anybody notices a 1" vs. .09 margin (especially if it's on one side) or if decrease the spacing between letters by a .1 increment. I had to do it a few times for my personal statement because I would have literally had half a sentence on the third page. Also, I think that 11pt font is fully acceptable. Again, if there is no specific requirements, you'll be fine playing around with the format *a little* bit if you're unable to condense your CV.

My $.02

I wouldn't count on this. I have done this for papers in the past, and I used a previously saved document as a template to write a paper for another course once upon a time. I submitted the paper without checking the formatting (margins, line spacing, etc.). I lost points because my paper was "too long" even though there was no page max, only a page minimum. When I questioned the professor about it, he said he had taken that into consideration but that I had gone considerably over his page minimum (by 3-5 pages)... and then he noticed that I also had changed the line spacing and margins to boot. I was surprised he had noticed because I certainly had not. I went back and checked my document. Sure enough, my line spacing and formatting was off by the slightest.

Some people are anal. You don't want this professor to be one the checking your CV and notice that you neglected to follow the guidelines, whether intentional or not. He will hold it against you.

 

[wigflip]

Some people are anal. You don't want this professor to be one the checking your CV and notice that you neglected to follow the guidelines, whether intentional or not. He will hold it against you.

+1

Just talked to my friend who served (as grad rep) on last year's admissions committee. Said that it was far from a strictly objective, rational process, and small/odd things could get you booted.

 

[Marissa4usa]

I wouldn't count on this. I have done this for papers in the past, and I used a previously saved document as a template to write a paper for another course once upon a time. I submitted the paper without checking the formatting (margins, line spacing, etc.). I lost points because my paper was "too long" even though there was no page max, only a page minimum. When I questioned the professor about it, he said he had taken that into consideration but that I had gone considerably over his page minimum (by 3-5 pages)... and then he noticed that I also had changed the line spacing and margins to boot. I was surprised he had noticed because I certainly had not. I went back and checked my document. Sure enough, my line spacing and formatting was off by the slightest.
Some people are anal. You don't want this professor to be one the checking your CV and notice that you neglected to follow the guidelines, whether intentional or not. He will hold it against you.

Yeah, but you're also talking about a paper for a class here. Sure thing that you need to adhere to APA guidelines (or any guidelines that a prof gives you for his paper. But there are simply no official APA guidelines for CVs. It may be common to follow them closely simply for the sake of consistency, but still, no official guidelines. However, I'd be more than happy to be proven otherwise...and will gladly keep my mouth shut 😀
Also, in the OPs case, the guideline is 2 pages, there don't seem to be other formatting requirement. So, as long as the CV looks professional (i.e. no crammed text, etc) I don't think anybody is going say anything.

 

[Marissa4usa]

+1

Just talked to my friend who served (as grad rep) on last year's admissions committee. Said that it was far from a strictly objective, rational process, and small/odd things could get you booted.

True, ANYTHING can get you booted, but I guess if somebody (e.g. professor of interest) boots me not having my CV according to non-existent guidelines (of course within reason), I'm not sure I'd be happy there anyways.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I completely gave up on writing anything other than articles bound for APA journals in APA format when I realized that the APA style guide is not in APA format.

Make it 2 pages if they say two pages, but I think within-reason font size changes (let's pretend it's a table! Shrink that font!), single-spacing, and minor margin change (no one will be writing in the margins) is reasonable.

I agree with this. If the only guideline is that the CV be two pages, then as JockNerd said, reasonable font size (e.g., don't shrink it down from 12 to 4) and margin (e.g., don't completely eliminate any trace of a margin) changes should be fine.

Personally, I'd also avoid using any excessively-flowery or decorative font types, or odd color choices, just for the sake of professionalism. But that's just me.

 

[paramour]

Yeah, but you're also talking about a paper for a class here. Sure thing that you need to adhere to APA guidelines (or any guidelines that a prof gives you for his paper. But there are simply no official APA guidelines for CVs. It may be common to follow them closely simply for the sake of consistency, but still, no official guidelines. However, I'd be more than happy to be proven otherwise...and will gladly keep my mouth shut 😀
Also, in the OPs case, the guideline is 2 pages, there don't seem to be other formatting requirement. So, as long as the CV looks professional (i.e. no crammed text, etc) I don't think anybody is going say anything.

True, ANYTHING can get you booted, but I guess if somebody (e.g. professor of interest) boots me not having my CV according to non-existent guidelines (of course within reason), I'm not sure I'd be happy there anyways.

I'm not certain there are APA guidelines for session notes, treatment plans, or termination summaries either. The same professor will critique and dock you for taking the same "creative" measures. 😉

I think certain margins, line spacing, etc. is fairly standard for most folks and trying to get around that is going to be noticeable to some folks. If you want to take that chance, then so be it. I admittedly have done so myself in the past... Until I started meeting folks who noticed these things and mentioned that they usually do not look fondly upon those who take these shortcuts. However, if you happen to be caught, so to speak, and it is held against you, then don't start griping about the unfairness of it when you know good & well that you had the opportunity to change it ahead of time.

Find another way. You're not always going to be able to get around or get away with them, so you may as well get some practice in and start getting used to them now.

And, FTR, I (and most other folks) actually love this professor. He is beyond awesome. He knows his **** from research to the clinical realm, and you learn a lot from him. He is simply more than a bit detail-oriented about things, and he will call your attention to it. In the end, although some folks do complain, his suggestions do improve your work.

(Even though I still b*tch at those page limits regardless of whether they're for CVs, papers, or clients' paperwork... )

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'm not certain there are APA guidelines for session notes, treatment plans, or termination summaries either. The same professor will critique and dock you for taking the same "creative" measures. 😉

I think certain margins, line spacing, etc. is fairly standard for most folks and trying to get around that is going to be noticeable to some folks. If you want to take that chance, then so be it. I admittedly have done so myself in the past... Until I started meeting folks who noticed these things and mentioned that they usually do not look fondly upon those who take these shortcuts. However, if you happen to be caught, so to speak, and it is held against you, then don't start griping about the unfairness of it when you know good & well that you had the opportunity to change it ahead of time.

Find another way. You're not always going to be able to get around or get away with them, so you may as well get some practice in and start getting used to them now.

And, FTR, I (and most other folks) actually love this professor. He is beyond awesome. He knows his **** from research to the clinical realm, and you learn a lot from him. He is simply more than a bit detail-oriented about things, and he will call your attention to it. In the end, although some folks do complain, his suggestions do improve your work.

(Even though I still b*tch at those page limits regardless of whether they're for CVs, papers, or clients' paperwork... )

To venture slightly off-topic, I'd say that page limits (especially on clinical reports once you're used to writing them in your particular style) are probably one of the best teaching tools an advisor can use. When you're in the habit of churning out, say, six-page reports, and your supervisor then says, "I want the next one no longer than three pages," it really causes you to not only efficiently convey your thoughts, but also to more effectively conceptualize the case in many instances.

 

[paramour]

To venture slightly off-topic, I'd say that page limits (especially on clinical reports once you're used to writing them in your particular style) are probably one of the best teaching tools an advisor can use. When you're in the habit of churning out, say, six-page reports, and your supervisor then says, "I want the next one no longer than three pages," it really causes you to not only efficiently convey your thoughts, but also to more effectively conceptualize the case in many instances.

I wholeheartedly concur! But oh, how I cringed & moaned in the process...

I tend to be "thorough," so I want everything there gosh, darnit! 😳

 

[futureapppsy2]

To be contrarian, I broke the recommended CV length for several schools, and I still got interviews. My CV, when I applied, was around 6-ish pages, and everyone I showed it to said that it was good, non-filler, and to just submit it as was. Now, 1.5 years later, my CV is around 8 pages. I'm getting to the point where I think I may want to start cutting posters, etc., but the people I've showed it to again haven't given me any solid advice on what to cut.

 

[PerhapsMaybeOk]

Trim the fat. There isn't a reason a CV needs to be over 5 pages.

 

[erg923]

Trim the fat. There isn't a reason a CV needs to be over 5 pages.

When was the last time you saw an academic CV that was only 5 pages? Lots of people have 5 pages worth of pubs and presentations...

 

[futureapppsy2]

when was the last time you saw an academic cv that was only 5 pages? Lots of people have 5 pages worth of pubs and presentations...

+1

 

[Ollie123]

+1

Yeah...5 pages might be a reasonable limit for undergrads. A five page CV for a faculty member is...well....who are we kidding, someone with a 5 page CV has little hope of BECOMING a faculty member. I'm at 3.5 pages of pubs and presentations alone, still have at least 2 years before going on the market, and am concerned I haven't been productive enough. Don't add in junk just to fill up space, but its intended to reflect your academic career. Unless you are of Aaron Beck level status, it seems pretty foolish to start chopping down research sections and doing the whole "Selected X,Y,Z" thing.

I don't recommend going over the limit if one is specified since its a big gamble, but thinking a general copy of a CV should be 5 pages is kind of nuts....

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Yeah...5 pages might be a reasonable limit for undergrads. A five page CV for a faculty member is...well....who are we kidding, someone with a 5 page CV has little hope of BECOMING a faculty member. I'm at 3.5 pages of pubs and presentations alone, still have at least 2 years before going on the market, and am concerned I haven't been productive enough. Don't add in junk just to fill up space, but its intended to reflect your academic career. Unless you are of Aaron Beck level status, it seems pretty foolish to start chopping down research sections and doing the whole "Selected X,Y,Z" thing.

I don't recommend going over the limit if one is specified since its a big gamble, but thinking a general copy of a CV should be 5 pages is kind of nuts....

I'd imagine a large part of it depends on where you are in your training, and just what type of training you've done. If you're very early in your career, and aren't looking into the academic job market, I'd imagine a 4-5 page CV is likely pretty standard (depending on font size, of course; mine is rather tiny owing to the original style/template, although I still like the look of it).

 

[Ollie123]

I'd imagine a large part of it depends on where you are in your training, and just what type of training you've done. If you're very early in your career, and aren't looking into the academic job market, I'd imagine a 4-5 page CV is likely pretty standard (depending on font size, of course; mine is rather tiny owing to the original style/template, although I still like the look of it).

Perhaps, though even the early-career VA psychologists I know are at more like 8 or so pages...4-5 is REALLY not a lot of space, though it does depend what you include. A pure clinician coming from a program where they weren't expected to have much/any research involvement...I can perhaps see that. Four pages would be very short even for the folks in our program who want nothing to do with research once they graduate (though obviously this depends on formatting - but assuming something relatively standard). Certainly someone just starting a graduate program will have less than someone on their way out, but assuming we talking about people around internship time - I maintain that four is extremely short unless the formatting is very dense.