D.O. doing M.D. residency?

[ck625]

If a D.O. does an M.D. residency....

Do they come out a D.O./M.D.?

And forgive my ignorance, but in order for a D.O. to get an M.D. residency... does the DO student have to take 2 versions of the Step 1 and then 2 versions and the Step 2... etc...?


How does this all work?

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[sunlioness]

A D.O. who completes an allopathic residency is still a DO and not an MD. I can't answer the question about testing though because I don't know how that works.

 

[jacksparrow82]

No a D.O. does not necessarily have to take both the M.D. and D.O. boards to get an M.D. residency. A D.O. is required to take the D.O. boards in order to graduate, but they may or may not have to take the M.D. boards to get an M.D. residency position. It all really depends on how competitive the M.D. residency is and if they are familiar with D.O.'s already. Some M.D. hospitals have lots of D.O.'s working there and training there and are perfectly fine with accepting D.O. board scores. Others however are either highly competitive or just not yet familiar with D.O.'s and so they are less likely to consider you without seeing the M.D. scores.
I'm a D.O. doing an M.D. Internal Medicine residency next year and I did not take the M.D. boards at all. However, if I would have tried to get into some prestigious big university academic program, I probably wouldn't have been able to even get an interview without either exceptionally high D.O. scores or fairly high M.D. scores.
You just have to look into each individual program that you are interested in.

 

[Castro Viejo]

State medical boards are the ones who care most about your licensing exams. The DOs take the COMLEX Parts 1, 2, and 3 in a similar sequence to the MDs taking the USMLE Steps 1, 2 and 3. Some state medical baords and osteopathic boards have combined as a single "medical board." All DOs in this country must take the COMLEX to qualify for licensure. They have the option of taking the USMLE. Typically DOs who take the USMLE are trying to show that they can hack it and are as qualified as MDs for certain, seemingly more competitive residency positions. They cannot take the USMLE instead of the COMLEX for licensure purposes. And finishing the USMLE sequences will NOT award the DO and MD degree, nor does it allow the DO to sign documents as "John Smith, MD" or "John Smith, DO, MD."

The letters at the end of your name are granted to you by your medical school, be it a DO or MD.

Furthermore doing an MD residency will not garner you an MD degree. Going to a (allopathic) medical school will, however, so long as that school has established requirements recognized by the various state medical boards.

So, for example, the whole DO to MD "conversion program" in the Caribbean does NOT qualify you to sign MD after your name even though you plopped down $30,000 because it's not a recognized medical school in the United States and is not an accredited medical school internationally (as determined by the WHO, I suppose).

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

All DOs in this country must take the COMLEX to qualify for licensure. They cannot take the USMLE instead of the COMLEX for licensure purposes.

Not to confuse the OP on this minor point but I'm not too sure those 2 statements are entirely true.

DO's "can" get licensed by taking USMLE I, II and III (and COMLEX I and II to be eligible to graduate from med school). There are, however, limitations in certain states for DO's who choose to complete the licensing series with the USMLE III and not COMLEX III.

A minority of DO's actually finish off with the USMLE III. Not sure why but they do.

Personally I'd much rather take the 1-day COMLEX III exam than the 2-day USMLE III.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I obtained my unrestricted license via the USMLE pathway. Did not take part 3 of the COMLEX. Step III was only a day long as I recall.

 

[Castro Viejo]

True dat. Sorry. It depends on the state. I guess I had my head centered on places like Pennsylvania (? and Louisiana, Michigan, etc.).

 

[ck625]

Thanks so much everyone for your input; it was extremely helpful and cleared up a lot of confusion!

All the Best,
Clara

 

[Tired]

I obtained my unrestricted license via the USMLE pathway. Did not take part 3 of the COMLEX. Step III was only a day long as I recall.

USMLE Step III is a two-day exam. COMLEX Step III is a one day exam.

 

[RockfordWF]

If a D.O. does an M.D. residency....

Do they come out a D.O./M.D.?

And forgive my ignorance, but in order for a D.O. to get an M.D. residency... does the DO student have to take 2 versions of the Step 1 and then 2 versions and the Step 2... etc...?


How does this all work?

When you graduate medical school, you receive a DO or MD degree, just like you receive a BS or BA degree in college. The major is medicine either way. The 3 steps of boards help you become a licensed physician. This is independent of any earned degree. As a DO you are required to take the COMLEX, and the USMLE is optional. Many do the USMLE to gain acceptance to ACGME (MD) residencies.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

USMLE Step III is a two-day exam. COMLEX Step III is a one day exam.

Well there you go, I recalled wong.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

True dat. Sorry. It depends on the state. I guess I had my head centered on places like Pennsylvania (? and Louisiana, Michigan, etc.).

T, no worries. Common misconception. There probably are few others who chose this route to licensure. I guess I could always take the COMVEX if I needed to, but that is unlikely (yes I meant COMVEX, not COMLEX).

 

[Blade28]

I guess I could always take the COMVEX if I needed to, but that is unlikely (yes I meant COMVEX, not COMLEX).

V = Variable, instead of L = Licensing?

 

[group_theory]

Just additional info

The following states will not recognize USMLE for initial licensure purposes for DOs

California
Florida
Michigan (for initial licensure) - will take USMLE for reciprocity
Oklahoma
Pennsylvania
Tennessee (for initial licensure) - will take USMLE for reciprocity only
Vermont
West Virginia


As for COMVEX, who knows what's going on with that beast (and how it applies to the above states). Per Florida's rules, "COMVEX-USA – the Board Office. This examination is not intended for initial licensure or as a replacement for the regular licensure examination". It goes on to list what COMVEX is used for. Can COMVEX be used to get licensed in Florida if you took all 3 steps of USMLE (but didn't finish out COMLEX)?

 

[PublicEnemy]

Actually, the reason that DO to MD carribean conversion program works is because if you graduate from ANY WHO listed school, no matter what their degree is, you can be an MD

In the United States, regardless of where you went to school and what degree you received, so long as the school is listed on WHO and so long as you go through the ECFMG process to obtain licensure by taking all steps of the USMLE and securing residency... you can call yourself an MD .

Example: in the UK, England, Australia, India, systems, the actual degree conferred is MBBS, which is a bachelors of medicine and a bachelors of surgery. its not even truly a doctoral degree.

Other countries have the MBChM, BSBM, etc. The degrees conferred ARE NOT MD, yet an FMG from UK or India with an MBBS degree can and will write the letters M.D. after their name in the US. This is because the designation MD is doctor of medicine actually based on the licensed write to practice and not the degree.

On the osteopathic side, the osteopathic physicians and the AOA have for whatever reason lobbyed hard to prevent being recognized or accredited by other organizations including WHO and LCME so that they can maintain the exclusive ability to recognized and regulate their own. Technically speaking however, if US DO schools were listed on the WHO, then their grads could essentially go through the process of ECFMG licensure, take USMLE steps I, II, III and in essence call themselves MD's. The AOA does not want this because its their way to maintain identity and i individuality as osteopathic profession.

 

[group_theory]

On the osteopathic side, the osteopathic physicians and the AOA have for whatever reason lobbyed hard to prevent being recognized or accredited by other organizations including WHO and LCME so that they can maintain the exclusive ability to recognized and regulate their own. Technically speaking however, if US DO schools were listed on the WHO, then their grads could essentially go through the process of ECFMG licensure, take USMLE steps I, II, III and in essence call themselves MD's. The AOA does not want this because its their way to maintain identity and i individuality as osteopathic profession.

Actually US osteopathic medical schools are listed in the WHO Directory of Medical Schools.
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/WDMS/usa.doc

WHO plays no role in accrediting medical schools. WHO relies on the country's government to give WHO a list of schools in which the individual government recognizes.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Actually, the reason that DO to MD carribean conversion program works is because if you graduate from ANY WHO listed school, no matter what their degree is, you can be an MD

In the United States, regardless of where you went to school and what degree you received, so long as the school is listed on WHO and so long as you go through the ECFMG process to obtain licensure by taking all steps of the USMLE and securing residency... you can call yourself an MD .

Example: in the UK, England, Australia, India, systems, the actual degree conferred is MBBS, which is a bachelors of medicine and a bachelors of surgery. its not even truly a doctoral degree.

Other countries have the MBChM, BSBM, etc. The degrees conferred ARE NOT MD, yet an FMG from UK or India with an MBBS degree can and will write the letters M.D. after their name in the US. This is because the designation MD is doctor of medicine actually based on the licensed write to practice and not the degree.

On the osteopathic side, the osteopathic physicians and the AOA have for whatever reason lobbyed hard to prevent being recognized or accredited by other organizations including WHO and LCME so that they can maintain the exclusive ability to recognized and regulate their own. Technically speaking however, if US DO schools were listed on the WHO, then their grads could essentially go through the process of ECFMG licensure, take USMLE steps I, II, III and in essence call themselves MD's. The AOA does not want this because its their way to maintain identity and i individuality as osteopathic profession.

Uhm, not that I'm interested in getting into one of those classic SDN threads devoted to "I'm a DO who wants to sign MD at the end of my name," but I feel the need to clarify some of this.

The DO to MD "conversion" nonsense is NOT based in any FAIMER or IMED listed medical school. They offer a diploma mill MD for anyone desperate enough to pay the $30,000. As a result, your paper MD will not be qualified for certification by the ECFMG and, thus, you are not an MD in the United States. In other words you're not legally allowed to submit any licensure or residency application with your diploma mill MD without ECFMG certification.

The only thing a med school graduate needs to apply for ECFMG certification is to have earned a medical degree from an institution listed with IMED or FAIMER outside the United States. And while each and every U.S. DO school is IMED and FAIMER listed, none of them are foreign (except for the one in Missouri... If Kirksville ain't a foreign country, I dunno what is!), and thus ECFMG certification is impossible.

The LCME is the only accrediting body for any institution in the United States that grants an MD. To suggest that osteopathic schools can simply "seek recognition" by the LCME will allow osteopathic physicians to sign MD is silly. You're talking about merger of the professions. The last time that happened, about 2,000 California DOs got screwed.

Stop blaming the AOA. If you want to sign MD at the end of your name, go to an "allopathic" medical school. You signed up to be at an osteopathic school and you had to have known what you were getting yourself into.

At the end of the day, no one really gives a flying crap whether you're an MD, DO, MBBS, or MBChB... Just don't do something dumb like close a belly with a lap sponge still in it and you'll be fine.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Actually US osteopathic medical schools are listed in the WHO Directory of Medical Schools.
http://whqlibdoc.who.int/publications/WDMS/usa.doc

WHO plays no role in accrediting medical schools. WHO relies on the country's government to give WHO a list of schools in which the individual government recognizes.

Correct. More important than WHO listing is being recognized by IMED or FAIMER, which ultimately, a foreign medical school would require if their graduates are interested in ECFMG certification.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

V = Variable, instead of L = Licensing?

Yup, "The Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Variable-Purpose Examination for the United States of America". Per the website:

COMVEX-USA is an appropriate examination in the following circumstances:

An osteopathic physician originally licensed by an examination devoid of osteopathic content now applying for a license in a state that requires an osteopathic examination

An osteopathic physician applying for licensure in a state which imposes a time limit that has not been met by the applicant

An osteopathic physician requesting reinstatement of a license following an interruption in his or her clinical practice

An experienced osteopathic physician needing to demonstrate basic osteopathic medical competency

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Can COMVEX be used to get licensed in Florida if you took all 3 steps of USMLE (but didn't finish out COMLEX)?

Sounds like it from the website info, but who really knows. I doubt very many people take this exam.

 

[Castro Viejo]

COMVEX is a real thing? For a minute there, I thought you guys were kidding.

 

[PublicEnemy]

First of all, being a physician really is a single profession. And you're absolutely right, it doesn't matter what your degree is at all.

I don't really know who you're saying is blaming the AOA. Furthermore, I am in no way making any judgement or commentary on osteopathic physicians wanting to be MD's. What I have stated is merely a theoretical question. Though I had some techinical inaccuracies regarding the actual WHO, what I meant moreso was IMED or FAIMER, and what I said about ECFMG certification is true. It is interesting that other "professions" as you called it, with other degrees, from other countries, do have the opportunity to be an MD in the United States so long as the school as you stated is IMED or FAIMER, so I was only raising the point that its not necessarily the actual degree that you are awarded that determines the letters after your name.

I in no way intended to come off snippy towards the AOA, that was not at all my intention and I apologize if that was the case. In reality, the bottomline however is this gets at the very core and identity of osteopathic physicians. Why even have a separate curriculum and identity if there was no way to actuallly differentiate or identify yourself. The AOA works hard to preserve this identity and thats more or less what I was stating.

As far as diploma mill goes, the one in particular we're talking about is just that, its just a paper thing, not a legit recognized school. There are a fair number osteopathic students every year however that do succesfully transfer to US allopathic programs for 3rd year. This is after pre-clincial education, and after step 1 of the boards, and ironically sometimes the students often end up doing very similar rotations at sometimes the same hospitals, example Newark Beth Israel, St. Barnabas, Long Island Jewish, etc, these are hospitals that are homes to multiple different med students including US allopathic, US DO, and carribean.

Many of the well known carribean schools,etc will also accept osteopathic student transfers even as late as 4th year. These schools unlike the diploma mills are actually legit and afford the opportunity for their students to obtain ECFMG certification So if someone really really wants to be an MD by any means, they can do it.

Uhm, not that I'm interested in getting into one of those classic SDN threads devoted to "I'm a DO who wants to sign MD at the end of my name," but I feel the need to clarify some of this.

The DO to MD "conversion" nonsense is NOT based in any FAIMER or IMED listed medical school. They offer a diploma mill MD for anyone desperate enough to pay the $30,000. As a result, your paper MD will not be qualified for certification by the ECFMG and, thus, you are not an MD in the United States. In other words you're not legally allowed to submit any licensure or residency application with your diploma mill MD without ECFMG certification.

The only thing a med school graduate needs to apply for ECFMG certification is to have earned a medical degree from an institution listed with IMED or FAIMER outside the United States. And while each and every U.S. DO school is IMED and FAIMER listed, none of them are foreign (except for the one in Missouri... If Kirksville ain't a foreign country, I dunno what is!), and thus ECFMG certification is impossible.

The LCME is the only accrediting body for any institution in the United States that grants an MD. To suggest that osteopathic schools can simply "seek recognition" by the LCME will allow osteopathic physicians to sign MD is silly. You're talking about merger of the professions. The last time that happened, about 2,000 California DOs got screwed.

Stop blaming the AOA. If you want to sign MD at the end of your name, go to an "allopathic" medical school. You signed up to be at an osteopathic school and you had to have known what you were getting yourself into.

At the end of the day, no one really gives a flying crap whether you're an MD, DO, MBBS, or MBChB... Just don't do something dumb like close a belly with a lap sponge still in it and you'll be fine.

 

[Castro Viejo]

It is interesting that other "professions" as you called it, with other degrees, from other countries, do have the opportunity to be an MD in the United States so long as the school as you stated is IMED or FAIMER, so I was only raising the point that its not necessarily the actual degree that you are awarded that determines the letters after your name.

Well, again, that's because those degrees are the exact academic equivalent to a U.S. MD degree. It's not as mystifying as you seem to make it. You're trying to equate an allopathic degree with an osteopathic degree, and the truth is, they're not equivalent degrees academically. They're technically different disciplines entirely, if you believe the AOA rhetoric.

There are a fair number osteopathic students every year however that do succesfully transfer to US allopathic programs for 3rd year. This is after pre-clincial education, and after step 1 of the boards, and ironically sometimes the students often end up doing very similar rotations at sometimes the same hospitals, example Newark Beth Israel, St. Barnabas, Long Island Jewish, etc, these are hospitals that are homes to multiple different med students including US allopathic, US DO, and carribean.

Hmmm... I'm not sure of your "fair number of osteopathic students" who transfer into the MS3 year at U.S. MD medical schools. Where's your data to support this?

I can only think of two LCME-accredited medical schools that accept transfers that don't necessarily have to be from other LCME-accredited institutions. The majoirty of U.S. MD medical schools will accept transfers only from other LCME-accredited medical schools, so I don't see how the two schools I'm thinking of can represent a "fair number" of DO students who transfer to an MD program as MS3s.

And neither of the two schools I'm thining of are affiliated with any of the hospitals you mentioned above.

As a former admissions officer, I've met many osteopathic medical students at various stages of their osteopathic training who have sought non-transfer admission (i.e., non-advanced standing -- they start all over as first year medical students in an MD program) to LCME-accredited MD medical schools. That still surprises me to this day.

Unless, of course, you're talking about DO medical students who decide to transfer to Caribbean medical schools like Ross University or St. George's University, both of whom will accept advanced standing credit from osteopathic programs. Those two schools are affiliated with some of the hospitals you mentioned above.

Many of the well known carribean schools,etc will also accept osteopathic student transfers even as late as 4th year.

Well, of course. These are for-profit institutions whose purpose in life is to make money for their investors while training future physicians. Kind of like Rocky Vista University in Colorado.

 

[PublicEnemy]

well, its certainly not mass numbers, but a surprising number of places will consider transfers. i have a close friend who just went through the process and transferred out of a DO school into an allopathic program. Places he was interviewed at include Drexel, Temple, Tulane, GW. The AAMC does publish data on this and even lists the schools that are willing to accept osteopathic transfers, its actually a pretty nice sized list. The actual numbers however work out to around 5 or so a year that make it. I'll try to find the link to the data tables and the list of schools and post it here.

i know a lot about this because i considered at one point and i have friends that tried and one that succesfully did it. 2 people from school recently did the same.

 

[Castro Viejo]

I'll try to find the link to the data tables and the list of schools and post it here.

Thanks! I'd actually be quite interested in seeing the table.

 

[tkim]

Thanks! I'd actually be quite interested in seeing the table.

http://services.aamc.org/tsp_reports/

Select "By policy". Choose - "Medical Students enrolled at Osteopathic Association-accredited medical schools" to see the schools that accept, and also current numbers. Changes every year.

No, it's not "TPS report".

 

[Kubed]

... And while each and every U.S. DO school is IMED and FAIMER listed, none of them are foreign (except for the one in Missouri... If Kirksville ain't a foreign country, I dunno what is!), and thus ECFMG certification is impossible....

I laughed so hard at this I think I actually peed a little.

 

[BKSGUDoc]

Unless, of course, you're talking about DO medical students who decide to transfer to Caribbean medical schools like Ross University or St. George's University, both of whom will accept advanced standing credit from osteopathic programs. Those two schools are affiliated with some of the hospitals you mentioned above.
quote]

Hi there, I'm a current St. George's 4th year, and by strict policy, SGU does not take advanced standing transfers under any circumstance, regardless of previous training/schooling. I can't comment on Ross.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Hi there, I'm a current St. George's 4th year, and by strict policy, SGU does not take advanced standing transfers under any circumstance, regardless of previous training/schooling. I can't comment on Ross.

From the St. George's University website:

http://www.sgu.edu/website/sguwebsite.nsf/som/medsciences-admissions.html

"Applications for advanced standing are considered rarely and only for the beginning of the second year. The Committee on Admission does not seek or encourage transfer applications. A candidate seeking advanced standing should write to the Chairman of the Committee on Admission to determine whether an application will be considered. The letter should include the citizenship of the candidate, the prior medical school with years attended, a brief summary of academic achievement and the reason for leaving. Should the Committee on Admission consider the application, the candidate will be notified of the procedures for applications"

Which is basically the same policy that most US M.D. and D.O. medical schools have regarding transfers.

As for Ross Univeristy,

http://www.rossu.edu/medical-school/admissions/getstarted.cfm

"Students enrolled, or previously enrolled, in a limited number of medical schools may apply for admission with advanced standing. Such applicants must arrange with the medical school they are currently attending for an official transcript of their academic record to be sent to Ross University. Students who have taken the USMLE Step 1 or Step 2, successfully or not, must also provide copies of their test results.

Additionally, transfer students must meet all the requirements for admission to Ross University; namely they should have earned a bachelor's degree or equivalent from an American, Canadian, or other international recognized college or university. Occasionally applicants qualify for admission upon completion of 90 credits (i.e., three fulltime years) of post-secondary
studies."

Neither institution specifically excludes osteopathic transfers. Having known a few people in my lifetime who made the jump from a DO medical school to an offshore MD program, I know both schools to take DO transfers (on a space available basis).

 

[Old_Mil]

Having known a few people in my lifetime who made the jump from a DO medical school to an offshore MD program, I know both schools to take DO transfers (on a space available basis).

I'm guessing that this policy has changed - as of last summer, neither St. George's nor Ross were willing to accept advance standing transfers from Osteopathic medical schools. AUC, I'm not sure about.

Incidentally, except for the handful of states that you cite, a DO can be licensed and have a perfectly good life using the USMLE to get licensure. West Virginia will (hopefully soon) remove itself from that list.

 

[ekydrd]

To try to get back to part of what the OP was asking...

Some allopathic residency programs actually require a DO to take the USMLE Steps 1 and 2 prior to applying. This is mostly because the scoring is not the same and PDs are not able to directly compare applicants when the scoring (and even the tests) are different. Not all programs require this tho. It's best to contact a program you are interested in to find out the requirement.