Daniel Carlat VS Stephen Stahl

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Suedehead

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because we all love a good argument.... something Freudian about it....

http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com/

check the 8/27 and 8/31 entries.

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because we all love a good argument.... something Freudian about it....

http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com/

check the 8/27 and 8/31 entries.

I don't get how lack of Pharma sponsorship/free stuff/free food causes a decline in research. Effective drugs can market themselves by being effective and we still have the wonderful world of DTC ads. Stahl relies on an army of straw men in his post and basically equates concern about conflict of interest with a witch hunt. Yet I don't see any scientologists on the panels making these policy decisions re: pharma influence.

The decline in NMEs is interesting, but do physicians really think it's a "take my ball and go home" phenomenon b/c of restrictions on wining and dining? It just seems like a stretch.
 
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Stahl and Carlat are both figureheads who're developing their own "brand," namely themselves. Stahl is the pharma expert who everyone thinks is overly swayed by pharma interests, and Carlat defines his position and his popularity by being more anti-pharma.

The truth is that these positions both serve self-interest, and the furthering of the products that each one sells.
 
Stahl and Carlat are both figureheads who're developing their own "brand," namely themselves. Stahl is the pharma expert who everyone thinks is overly swayed by pharma interests, and Carlat defines his position and his popularity by being more anti-pharma.

Not sure Carlat's position could be accurately described as anti-pharma. He trained at MGH, hardly the bastion of anti-pharma sentiment. He prescribes many of the available drugs in his own private practice and has written previously about studies that describe the efficacy of many of the available drugs.

The anti-pharma label is probably more accurately applied to people like Szasz, Laing, and Moncrieff.
 
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The anti-pharma label is probably more accurately applied to people like Szasz, Laing, and Moncrieff.

Moncrieff...aye aye aye.....lay off me bird, she is nothing like them two oiks!!!
 
Anti-pharma usually means more anti-industry influence more than anti-medication treatment. Carlat has built his brand on being anti-industry influence, but many of us have built our personal identities that way too. But Carlat, ironically, does financially benefit from filling the niche of being anti-industry. But this is a necessary irony, not necessarily a judgment on him.

The Carlat Report is a great resource, but his more personal writings rub a lot of people the wrong way, even people (like me, I think) who are sympathetic to his basic points.

He lost a ton of respect from me here: http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com/2009/03/king-of-cringe-strikes-again.html

This requires a lot of doublethink.
 
Anti-pharma usually means more anti-industry influence more than anti-medication treatment. Carlat has built his brand on being anti-industry influence, but many of us have built our personal identities that way too. But Carlat, ironically, does financially benefit from filling the niche of being anti-industry. But this is a necessary irony, not necessarily a judgment on him.

The Carlat Report is a great resource, but his more personal writings rub a lot of people the wrong way, even people (like me, I think) who are sympathetic to his basic points.

He lost a ton of respect from me here: http://carlatpsychiatry.blogspot.com/2009/03/king-of-cringe-strikes-again.html

This requires a lot of doublethink.

First, it's a blog post, which is allowed to have more personality and less journalistic integrity than say the Carlat Report.

Second, you can't say that there isn't a place for risperidone in many pediatric patients - and without Biederman's gutsy research (funded by industry) I'm not sure we would have this tool in the toolbox.

Third, I am close with someone who worked with Biederman regularly and thought extremely highly of him and his integrity. Sure, he looks like he got caught red handed with his hand in the pharma cookie jar - but did he do some good along the way?
 
First, it's a blog post, which is allowed to have more personality and less journalistic integrity than say the Carlat Report.

Yes, but it's how grating that personality can be at times that is the problem. Carlat pisses a lot of people off. Some of those people, it's their own fault. Some of those people, it's his fault. He's not an NBA player where his off-the-court behavior doesn't matter as long as he's scoring 20 a night. He's an academic psychiatrist.

Second, you can't say that there isn't a place for risperidone in many pediatric patients - and without Biederman's gutsy research (funded by industry) I'm not sure we would have this tool in the toolbox.

Third, I am close with someone who worked with Biederman regularly and thought extremely highly of him and his integrity. Sure, he looks like he got caught red handed with his hand in the pharma cookie jar - but did he do some good along the way?

The quality of Biederman's work and his relationship to pharma have little do with each other. I know folks who worked closely with him as well (everybody does--there are plenty of them). And I know people who have had screaming matches with him (again, everbody does--there are plenty of them). "Being brilliant" and "having scientific integrity" (which are probably both true) have nothing to do with "taking a lot of money from pharma and acting like it's no big deal and flaunting your institution's rules about reporting your income from them because you don't think rules apply to you."

Has the MGH psychopharm group been REALLY important in the last 15 years? Absolutely! Have they done tons of good and generated a lot of very sound, daresay specialty-changing research? Entirely. Did the way they do it do some amount of damage to child psychiatry? Probably. The first two could have been done without the last. Plenty of good folks take pharma money and do good research, even in pediatric bipolar disorder. Having industry ties isn't itself necessarily a problem. Not managing that tie in a way that doesn't compromise the specialty is.
 
The other issue with Biederman's case I think is more systemic. The group, while influential, is pretty much the handiwork of one person. This invariably makes the research, even under the best circumstances, prone to all kinds of biases, not the least of which ethical ones. I find that generally, multi-center trials via consortiums (i.e. RUPP) end up with much more rigorous protocols because there are just too many layers of redtape for certain fishy practices to filter through. And while his data provided a basis for certain common practices today, the financial disclosure confuses our ability to judge the quality of his research--I think not just the lay public, but an average practicing psychiatrist would have no way to tell if and when his results were or weren't influenced by his money. So then basically everything he did was sort of wasted. I think this was one of the biggest reasons for disclosure.

The idea is yes, pharma could and should give money to research. But in order to do it ethically certain systemic rules have to be set. Pharma needs to sponsor a multi-center consortium, not a single investigator. Pharma needs to back off once the protocol is drawn and are not allowed to ipsilaterally pull out once the funding is committed regardless of the results. The data need to be publicly shared once the study is published.

Unless you are in the research game, you don't know how CRUCIAL pharma money is. NIMH essentially has so little money left that it's becoming increasingly difficult to sustain a life purely as a clinical trialist, which is the heart and soul of a MD-only clinical investigator. Meanwhile, the modicum amount of progress that was actually made in psychiatry in the past 30 years that's relevant to clinical practice was almost exclusively made in pharmacologic work. Despite the billions of dollars spent on neuroimaging and genetics, not a single clinically useful test has been developed, or should I say even CLOSE to being developed. Animal models have yet to yield a SINGLE target for psychiatric disorders. I think these are relevant, albeit depressing points. A bit of macroscopic perspective is in order when people try to make an attempt at these discussions.

Just an addendum to Stahl's dooms and glooms talk: while I'm sure he's a bit on the dramatic side, the sense I'm getting from cocktail parties at my level does confirm some of his basic points--CNS drugs pipeline is NOT doing well, young investigator, don't go into it! Have a backup plan! Not clear what's going to happen in the next 20 years. Hopefully the genius basic/translational researchers amongst us will revolutionize the field, but that somehow sounds vaguely like praying to a lottery ticket.
 
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I find it interesting in a sense that I rarely see good debates within the field of psychiatry. Usually the debates I see are political.

Personally, I find the pharma issue multifaceted. Profits drive new meds. More meds is better than fewer in terms of being able to pick a med to treat a patient. The problem here is several doctors give out meds for the wrong reasons, e.g. a drug rep encouraged them to give it.

Cut one way or another I see a problem happening. Personally I'd like to see new meds, but (and I'm biased because it's me), I'd like to believe I don't give meds out because of some drug rep. E.g. I've had several patients who didn't have side effects on Invega but did on Risperdal, and both meds worked in reducing symptoms.
 
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Yes, but it's how grating that personality can be at times that is the problem. Carlat pisses a lot of people off. Some of those people, it's their own fault. Some of those people, it's his fault. He's not an NBA player where his off-the-court behavior doesn't matter as long as he's scoring 20 a night. He's an academic psychiatrist.



The quality of Biederman's work and his relationship to pharma have little do with each other. I know folks who worked closely with him as well (everybody does--there are plenty of them). And I know people who have had screaming matches with him (again, everbody does--there are plenty of them). "Being brilliant" and "having scientific integrity" (which are probably both true) have nothing to do with "taking a lot of money from pharma and acting like it's no big deal and flaunting your institution's rules about reporting your income from them because you don't think rules apply to you."

Has the MGH psychopharm group been REALLY important in the last 15 years? Absolutely! Have they done tons of good and generated a lot of very sound, daresay specialty-changing research? Entirely. Did the way they do it do some amount of damage to child psychiatry? Probably. The first two could have been done without the last. Plenty of good folks take pharma money and do good research, even in pediatric bipolar disorder. Having industry ties isn't itself necessarily a problem. Not managing that tie in a way that doesn't compromise the specialty is.

You are completely correct in asserting that Biederman's not reporting his income is more than unforgivable - its criminal.
 
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You are completely correct in asserting that Biederman's not reporting his income is more than unforgivable - its criminal.

If you ever seen Biederman in an interview, his weirdness (he does not look like a guy you'd allow to babysit while you're away), that he's not given a conciliatory tone (at least that I know of)despite his recent notoriety, that there's been IMHO a huge drive to over-medicate kids and when asked why, their doctors cite Biederman, and I don't see response to mitigate this from Biederman, makes me wonder what his own opinions are on this issue.

Sure, he looks like he got caught red handed with his hand in the pharma cookie jar - but did he do some good along the way?

Aside that what he got caught doing begs questioning the integrity of his work, I haven't seen responses from him to rectify the situation or at least seem conciliatory. Now this could be media hype and I'm only reading what I see. After all there's more ratings, more attention, more drama when people are painted as bad guys and I don't know the guy. Could be he's done everything I would've liked to see him do.

A problem from his research, and I may not be up to par on this because I'm not a child psychiatrist, is that it opened some doors in getting kids medicated. The problem from what I'm seeing is there still isn't well established guidelines on how to do so. Child psychiatry is already a field where under-the-table (because no one has the balls to openly criticize their profession in the news) there are plenty believing kids are over-medicated even within the field.

I'm not directly blaming Biederman for this phenomenon, and he may not be responsible for it, but other doctors are citing his research as justification for medicating children despite lack of well established guidelines. The fact that he was caught red-handed on such a tender issue just makes this incredbly worse.

And BTW, I personally believe that researchers that make great strides deserve more money. Not every single great accomplishment requires a Jonas Salk response. If a guy put in hard time, effort, and his own genius into advancing something, I'm not against him profitting.
 
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Profits drive new meds. More meds is better than fewer in terms of being able to pick a med to treat a patient.

Where is the data to support that assertion. Pharma has reaped big profits from the work of NIH/NIMH supported work done by researchers. No pharma company has big R&D branches anymore.
 
And BTW, I personally believe that researchers that make great strides deserve more money. Not every single great accomplishment requires a Jonas Salk response. If a guy put in hard time, effort, and his own genius into advancing something, I'm not against him profitting.

Is that not the crux of the matter, how to reward everyone? Consider a lot of very smart people didn't figure out how info was passed from one generation to the next. Not because they were not genious, they were just looking at a different molecule instead of DNA.

Most research rightly ends in failure. Failure to prove anything makes the biggest contribution and consumes the most brain power. Your statement begs the question, how do you properly reward this majority?
 
Is that not the crux of the matter, how to reward everyone? Consider a lot of very smart people didn't figure out how info was passed from one generation to the next. Not because they were not genious, they were just looking at a different molecule instead of DNA.

Most research rightly ends in failure. Failure to prove anything makes the biggest contribution and consumes the most brain power. Your statement begs the question, how do you properly reward this majority?

I agree. Although I don't like it.
 
In my opinion, this debate would not even be happening if psychiatrists weren't so quick to automatically jump on the Stahl bandwagon.

Stahl's an intelligent guy, a gifted researcher and writer, and his explanations are extremely elegant. Unfortunately, they might be entirely wrong. Moreover, if psychiatrists actually listen to their patients, they will learn that drugs often don't work the way Stahl's elegant models predict they will.

Unfortunately, many psychiatrists are like sheep who idolize Stahl, agree with his every word, and believe he walks on water. They have enriched him just as much as (if not more than) the pharmaceutical companies have. But, thanks to people like Carlat (and a lot of popular anti-medication press lately), they are becoming more aware of his deficiencies, and Stahl is facing the reality that his house of cards is finally falling apart. And, like good businesses, Pharma is simply moving to more reliable sources of revenue.

Some of these ideas were presented in this blog post too:
http://thoughtbroadcast.com/2011/08/28/psychopharm-rd-cutbacks-ii-a-response-to-stahl/
 
Most research rightly ends in failure. Failure to prove anything makes the biggest contribution and consumes the most brain power. Your statement begs the question, how do you properly reward this majority?

Agree with you on this issue as well. This, actually, is a problem with medical publications in general because they often do not publish failures, only successes in the sense that something showed a significant difference.

There should be something of a reward for anyone that advances science in general.

Where is the data to support that assertion. Pharma has reaped big profits from the work of NIH/NIMH supported work done by researchers. No pharma company has big R&D branches anymore.

Hmm, well if that's the case that's news to me. I see stock companies all the time putting money into R&D.
E.g.
http://www.acadia-pharm.com/about/
 
In my opinion, this debate would not even be happening if psychiatrists weren't so quick to automatically jump on the Stahl bandwagon.

Stahl's an intelligent guy, a gifted researcher and writer, and his explanations are extremely elegant. Unfortunately, they might be entirely wrong. Moreover, if psychiatrists actually listen to their patients, they will learn that drugs often don't work the way Stahl's elegant models predict they will.

Unfortunately, many psychiatrists are like sheep who idolize Stahl, agree with his every word, and believe he walks on water. They have enriched him just as much as (if not more than) the pharmaceutical companies have. But, thanks to people like Carlat (and a lot of popular anti-medication press lately), they are becoming more aware of his deficiencies, and Stahl is facing the reality that his house of cards is finally falling apart. And, like good businesses, Pharma is simply moving to more reliable sources of revenue.

Some of these ideas were presented in this blog post too:
http://thoughtbroadcast.com/2011/08/28/psychopharm-rd-cutbacks-ii-a-response-to-stahl/

I actually strongly disagree your point. There's a difference in equating pharma with clinical neuroscience, and even though pharma has cleverly leveraged science to market their products, to conflate one with the other is exactly the opposite of what we need. In my mind, too many psychiatrists are utterly deficient in terms of evidence based knowledge and contemporary neuroscience about mental illness such that they make up their own ill fated treatment plan that may or may not work and they boast them as their unique "clinical judgement." These theories are not just some fantasy cooked up by Stahl and his pharma warlock co-conspirators, they are backed by scientific evidence. Sure the theories are not perfect, and the evidence is incomplete, but what exactly do you suggest that we fall back to? Psychoanalytic theories?

Just because a scientific theory "might" be "entirely wrong" does not mean that we should advance clinical care based on willy-nilly whimsies. This is exactly the same argument that compelled the Dover school district to not teach evolution in schools. After all, it's just a THEORY, that MIGHT be ENTIRELY WRONG.

Psychiatry, as a field, has changed quite dramatically and the public opinion of this field has made an enormous gain. Much of that was due precisely to the emergence of a panoply of psychotropic medications, some of which are quite effective, and their associated neurobiologic hypothesis of the pathogenesis of psychiatric disorders. To deny that there is now a body of canonical scientific knowledge in this field, crude as it may be, is simply dishonest. I'm not saying that medications are not overprescribed. I'm not saying that pharma is ethical all the time. But to be categorically anti-medication and to be unwilling to acknowledge the importance of drugs development as the cornerstone of psychiatric research is simply nearsighted. If we didn't have medications this specialty as we know it today wouldn't exist and you wouldn't have a job. And if we can't develop new medications this field is not going to go anywhere.
 
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sluox, I think we agree more than we disagree.

But I'm confused. You write that psychiatrists are poorly informed re: neuroscience and evidence-based practice (an assertion with which I agree), but then state that their "ill fated treatment plans" are "not just some fantasy" but are "backed by scientific evidence."

Do you mean to say that the treatment plans devised by today's psychopharmacologists-- which, in your words, "may or may not work"-- are acceptable because they might have some basis in clinical neuroscience? Sounds like you're on the Stahl bandwagon I alluded to in my first post.

Anyway, the "neurobiologic hypothesis of the pathogenesis of psychiatric disorders" (in your words) provides a wonderful heuristic with which psychiatrists can compartmentalize, pigeonhole, and pathologize the vast spectrum of human behavior. It also provides the framework for pharmaceutical companies to persuade doctors that virtually any deviation from "normal" is a mental illness and requires their drug. This is the approach which Stahl and his contemporaries have epitomized and capitalized upon. Sure, sometimes they're correct. Other times, they're way off, but we psychopharmacologists use the language of modern psychiatry (i.e., vague, nonspecific DSM categorical diagnoses and "crude" neurobiological jargon) to convince ourselves that they're right. Hey, the patient and his/her insurance company buys into it, too, so what's the downside??

By the way, I am absolutely not "categorically anti-medication." (You sound like Stahl criticizing Carlat!) And with respect to your comment that "if we didn't have medications... wouldn't have a job," I must respectfully disagree. I actually enjoy providing psychotherapy, listening to patients, working together with them to change behaviors and lifestyles, and instilling the hope for a better (and potentially drug-free) future. The departure of Big Pharma from my practice might actually make this approach to psychiatry more acceptable.
 
Anyway, the "neurobiologic hypothesis of the pathogenesis of psychiatric disorders" (in your words) provides a wonderful heuristic with which psychiatrists can compartmentalize, pigeonhole, and pathologize the vast spectrum of human behavior. It also provides the framework for pharmaceutical companies to persuade doctors that virtually any deviation from "normal" is a mental illness and requires their drug. This is the approach which Stahl and his contemporaries have epitomized and capitalized upon. Sure, sometimes they're correct. Other times, they're way off, but we psychopharmacologists use the language of modern psychiatry (i.e., vague, nonspecific DSM categorical diagnoses and "crude" neurobiological jargon) to convince ourselves that they're right. Hey, the patient and his/her insurance company buys into it, too, so what's the downside??

The problem is the framework. Sometimes they are right, and they are right because it's science. Sometimes they are wrong because the science isn't there yet. Science can be falsified and tested and improved upon. Just because sometimes science isn't right doesn't mean that you are allowed to abandon the scientific framework. What you personally consider normal or pathology isn't science, and can easily become ideologic and politicized. There is no alternative to a scientific foundation for the modern practice of psychiatry. If you are arguing otherwise you are deluding yourself.

Now, if you are saying that for whatever reason the PREMISE of science was currupted for some kind of gain, i.e. akin to phrenology or eugenics at the turn of the century, that is a separate matter. While I think there exists certain perversion of the science as it stands today, this does not legitamize abandonment of Stahl. Because if you abandoned Stahl you have NOTHING left. I suppose by Stahl I meant science, and by Stahl you meant that perversion of science. To the extent of his textbook and his advocacy though, I would say most of it is science, not the perversion thereof. And he is quite astutely aware of the limitations of these models. And I don't really get what his "bandwagon" is. If you think the bandwagon is the neuroscientific approach espoused from Tom Insel at the top all the way to the bottom I have nothing left to say.

I actually enjoy providing psychotherapy, listening to patients, working together with them to change behaviors and lifestyles, and instilling the hope for a better (and potentially drug-free) future. The departure of Big Pharma from my practice might actually make this approach to psychiatry more acceptable.

So you want to go back to the psychiatry of the early 60s when millions were imprisoned in state hospitals. There's something frustrating about psychiatrists who want to focus on therapy when there are cheaper alternatives out there who can do therapy as well or better than you can. This really takes away someone who's trained to do pharm on the persistent-severely mentally ill to treat the well-off worried well. Why is it that internal medicine doctors aren't changing patient's life styles so they can become "drug-free" of statins and insulin? Because it's not their job. Basically you are saying you spent 8 years training for a job that you aren't trained for so you can overcharge for a service that you aren't best at providing. I'm not sure your standard of practice is any more ethical than big pharmas. Hate to dump on the rainbow and roses hippy version of clinical psychiatry, the biggest issue with many of these patients is medication COMPLIANCE, not being drug free.

Look, pharma's not intruding upon your daily practice. You can practice however you want within reason and nobody cares. But to say that the money provided by pharma is not necessary and to advance pharmacotherapy for mental illness is not essential to the survival of this field is just simply unconscionable.

Sorry for the diatribe, but people like you make me think that psychiatry has reached a moment where it should split into two specailties. One for those of us who want to treat psychiatry like another branch of medicine. And one for those of us like you, who would rather do "medical humanities."
 
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The problem is the framework. Sometimes they are right, and they are right because it's science. Sometimes they are wrong because the science isn't there yet. Science can be falsified and tested and improved upon. Just because sometimes science isn't right doesn't mean that you are allowed to abandon the scientific framework.

I agree entirely. What I don't like is when psychopharmacologists give a "scientific" explanation for the effect of a drug, or lack thereof, or the appearance of some side effect, when the science doesn't exist to support this explanation; it's a hypothesis which has not been proven, and they proceed to test their hypotheses on their patients. THEY're the ones abandoning the scientific framework when they do this, in my opinion. And I think you'd agree.

Because if you abandoned Stahl you have NOTHING left. I suppose by Stahl I meant science, and by Stahl you meant that perversion of science. To the extent of his textbook and his advocacy though, I would say most of it is science, not the perversion thereof. And he is quite astutely aware of the limitations of these models.

I never said Stahl was not a scientist. He's more knowledgeable than you or I, that's for sure. Most-- if not all-- of what he writes has a legitimate scientific basis. Unfortunately, if you read some of his writings carefully (and look at who has paid for each article), he often "spins" the science in such a way to make a new drug seem effective, according to models that have not yet been validated clinically. (If you want examples of this, check out what he's written lately for Latuda, Silenor, and Deplin.)

There's something frustrating about psychiatrists who want to focus on therapy when there are cheaper alternatives out there who can do therapy as well or better than you can.

The reason others can do therapy "better than I can" is not because I can't (or don't want to) do therapy. It's because this field has forced me to be a pharmacologist. When the limitations of pharmacology become apparent, we become defensive and pound the table for "more research," when in fact an alternate approach might help a good number of our patients.

This really takes away someone who's trained to do pharm on the persistent-severely mentally ill to treat the well-off worried well.

Again, I never said I would not treat the severely mentally ill, or withhold medications from them.

But to say that the money provided by pharma is not necessary and to advance pharmacotherapy for mental illness is not essential to the survival of this field is just simply unconscionable.

Jeez, I have to correct this statement, too? :laugh: I never said that pharma money wasn't necessary to advance pharmacotherapy. Pharma money is essential for new drug development, and I think we both agree we need better medications (and a better understanding of the biology of mental illness). I just think we ought to think "outside the box" for alternative strategies, given the reality of Big Pharma's exodus from CNS research. Sure, this might hurt guys like Stahl (and it might force you and I to go back and refresh our therapy skills), but it's the reality of our current situation. And I believe that many patients might actually benefit in the long run.

And one for those of us like you, who would rather do "medical humanities."

And what would be so wrong with that? We're all humans, aren't we? ;)
 
There's actually no evidence that ties level of education with effectiveness or cost-effectiveness of therapy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

While pharma money is important for drug development, more often now their money goes to buying startups that actually did the innovation. Their legislative agenda goes towards extending patents which squashes innovation.

Wmro makes a good point about Stahl's explanations of the new drugs, as if these basic science explanations have been borne out to have clinical significance. Currently, they haven't. They're a nice idea to contemplate, but that's about it.

Wmro, I have to disagree that the market has "forced" us to not do therapy. We abdicate the role by not pursuing it. It's more profitable to just do 15-minute med checks, but that's us voluntarily following the market and choosing more dollars over anything else. In localities where there's a dire shortage of psychiatrists I'm sure they'd prefer we just do med visits all day long because so many people need it there. But I think we have to ask ourselves as a profession is half-helping many better than fully helping fewer?
 
Wmro, I have to disagree that the market has "forced" us to not do therapy. We abdicate the role by not pursuing it. It's more profitable to just do 15-minute med checks, but that's us voluntarily following the market and choosing more dollars over anything else. In localities where there's a dire shortage of psychiatrists I'm sure they'd prefer we just do med visits all day long because so many people need it there. But I think we have to ask ourselves as a profession is half-helping many better than fully helping fewer?

Thank you. That is absolutely correct, and a far more accurate statement than my claim that we have been "forced" into our current situation.
 
I have to disagree that the market has "forced" us to not do therapy.

I made a similar comment to John Oldham a few months ago when he visited our program, and I got a very dirty look and a prompt dismissal. That NYT article had just come out lamenting how psychiatrists couldn't do psychotherapy in the same paragraph that it said we made 190k a year on average. Heck, my best friend would barely talk to me for a week after we got into it about me making that comment.

Whether it's what we deserve or what the market will bear or whatever, even factoring in the cost of the blood sacrifices we make for so long to get here, it's still a LOT of money. I'm sure someone here will say it's not, whining about tax brackets and how their buddy who was dumber than them in undergrad became an I banker or whatever, but that's ridiculous. It's a LOT of money. And when your whole field is making a LOT of money, you have zero credibility in a public forum talking about how you're forced to do anything "to make ends meet," which is the point many folks make.

That's not to say I don't think the compensation structure is crap. We get paid to act quickly rather than well, and there's probably a middle ground between "seeing everybody for an hour weekly" and "see everybody for 15 minutes every 3 months" that could be better reflected in the way our financial incentives our structured.
 
We abdicate the role by not pursuing it. It's more profitable to just do 15-minute med checks, but that's us voluntarily following the market and choosing more dollars over anything else. I

A problem here is not just the market (though you could also call it that) but reality.

In one of the areas I work in, there is a serious shortage of psychiatrists but not psychotherapists. I am better serving the community by cutting down on the psychotherapy and leaving it to other people so I can extend myself and see more patients.

Despite that, I do try to fit in what psychotherapy I can in the small amount of time I have. I don't allow for medchecks only unless the patient is already stabilized. I often will allow a patient to talk with me going over-time if the next patient is late or can't make it for no extra charge. I have been able to figure some things out and advance the person's mental health psychotherapeutically in many cases.

But the bottom line is I am referring plenty of people to others for psychotherapy. In addition to above, some of it is also that I know some of my colleagues do a better job than me in specific areas of psychotherapy because I haven't gotten the training yet to say I'm qualified in that specific type such as DBT or EMDR. I also know that some patients are of a situation where they need much more than a 30 minute session, they might even need a few hours per session, and there are many that can provide this, but I cannot at the cost of cutting other people out.

And I'll add that I see a lot of doctors solely focusing on the meds because they're cutting corners and trying to make money.

IMHO a 10 minute medcheck is not enough time to even do that unless the patient is stabilized on their medication, doing well, and not having any complaints. Such a situation IMHO is only acceptable if you're doing a refill and you just want to touch base and make sure everything is fine. You really have to talk to the person to understand what is going on.
 
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When the limitations of pharmacology become apparent, we become defensive and pound the table for "more research," when in fact an alternate approach might help a good number of our patients.

The problem is there isn't an "alternative approach." In many ways, you are arguing for the breakdown of the scientific method. I have no problem with therapy as long as it makes sense, and has evidence based efficacy, and many therapy paradigms do and are useful to know about. But you are conflating more research with more pharmacologic research. When the limitations of pharmacology becomes apparent, the reasonable thing to do IS TO DO MORE RESEARCH, and to develop new medications AND new therapy, and not to say oh science doesn't work let's go to literary criticism and psychoanalysis and I'm just gonna randomly treat you now with my "clinical judgement".

Furthermore, why should you be doing it when someone else can do it equally well for cheaper? Just because you like doing it? And if that's the case why should you expect anyone to pay you more for the same service? And why should you expect that the field would fight this battle with you? It's simple math, why should the government pay more for the same product? This just blows my mind.

In one of the areas I work in, there is a serious shortage of psychiatrists but not psychotherapists. I am better serving the community by cutting down on the psychotherapy and leaving it to other people so I can extend myself and see more patients.

I second this. This is I think the main reason why psychiatrists are switching to med management.
 
Furthermore, why should you be doing it when someone else can do it equally well for cheaper? Just because you like doing it? And if that's the case why should you expect anyone to pay you more for the same service? And why should you expect that the field would fight this battle with you? It's simple math, why should the government pay more for the same product? This just blows my mind.

I second this. This is I think the main reason why psychiatrists are switching to med management.

There isn't actually evidence to support that others do it equally well (or better, or worse), and the one study that did look at cost effectiveness showed that if someone needs only therapy, a social worker is the cheapest. If they need therapy and meds, a psychiatrist giving combined care is the cheapest option.

Psychiatrists switching to med management can be to serve the community and a shortage of psychiatrists, but when we lessen our own training in therapy, we're really perpetuating a narrowing of our focus as a field. This creates the expectation that meds is all we know how to do, and all we should do, which is frankly wrong.
 
Also, one of the best ways to 'extend' ourselves is to help primary care doctors manage medications. This can include patients who have been stabilized or patients that they can manage entirely on their own.

Being available to primary care physicians can greatly extend care. As their knowledge grows and their ability to reach a helpful psychiatrist grows, the ability to care for patients with psychiatric diagnoses grows exponentially.
 
I don't think that anti-psychiatrists or hippies have anything to do with a decline in psychopharmacological research. I'm no expert in psychopharmacology, but maybe it has reached its' limits after all (and probably the limits of understanding of how exactly they work). I agree with Carlat on this one. I don't know how far can you go with these drugs which massively affect the whole brain in complicated (and at the same time unwanted) ways. The fact that psychiatry is based on psychopharmacology rather than some brain-mind theory/theories (which would make predictions about the pathophysiology of disordered emotions, motivations and thinking-and hence provide valid reasons on why, when and how the drugs are used, creating at the same time a clear scientific ground for further well-reasoned developments) puts it on shaky scientific ground. Maybe the future of biological treatments would be in the realm of neuronetics and localized brain stimulations/interventions. Maybe it will become more interventional like some sub-specialties of today's neurology (e.g. neuro-inteventional). Who knows.
 
... but maybe it has reached its' limits after all (and probably the limits of understanding of how exactly they work). I agree with Carlat on this one. I don't know how far can you go with these drugs which massively affect the whole brain in complicated (and at the same time unwanted) ways.

"On the leading edge of neurotechnology is psychopharmacology." -Eric Kandel

Right now these drugs are condiments to the "brain soup". But out of everything you say, the most imminent development is receptor subtype specific pharmacology and rationally designed combination of drugs, as well as pharmacogenomics.

The fact that psychiatry is based on psychopharmacology rather than some brain-mind theory/theories (which would make predictions about the pathophysiology of disordered emotions, motivations and thinking-and hence provide valid reasons on why, when and how the drugs are used, creating at the same time a clear scientific ground for further well-reasoned developments) puts it on shaky scientific ground.

This is what neuroscience is. It's just not good enough yet. And likely this is going to involve lots of math, which most psychiatrists aren't very good at.
 
Manicsleep: Where is the data to support that assertion. Pharma has reaped big profits from the work of NIH/NIMH supported work done by researchers. No pharma company has big R&D branches anymore.

Whopper: Hmm, well if that's the case that's news to me. I see stock companies all the time putting money into R&D.
E.g.

Just a clarification, I do agree with you Manicsleep. My argument is that people should be allowed to profit when they do it the way it's supposed to be done...by advancing the science or offering good practice. Pharm companies of course do questionable things such as cut corners, over-advertise via drug reps, and try to get blood out of a stone by reselling an already existing med with a new name or minor modification.

But on the other hand, there are still some companies putting money into R&D to make new and better products, at least as far as I know.

I wouldn't be surprised if the trend is to cut corners the way you mentioned.

I've seen several psychiatrists who've worked hard, put their genius into what they do, and make more money as a result of it. I mentioned one doctor, for example, who is considered a top person in his field and does consults for difficult cases where several doctors have tried, and failed to offer an appropriate treatment. I don't know how much money he makes from those consults but I'm sure it's way more than the average. The entire justification for doctors earning good money is because we have more training and expertise. Someone making more money for better expertise than others works on this same paradigm. I have no problem with that so long as the person is still practicing ethically.
 
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