David vs Goliath: A story for underdogs aka me

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Reckoner said:
No. There are too many variables at every scale of comparison to safely assume the level of competition any given student faced in each of their classes. It's not even fair to assume all classes within a single institution were curved, or curved in the same way.

Should students from schools that actively grade deflate get some slack? Sure, as long as their GPA is still competitive relative to that school's average. And if you read any of the five million previous threads on this topic, you will probably come across posts by AdCom members like LizzyM and Goro confirming that they already do this.
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+1 I agree. There are just too many variables accross institutions, majors, classes, professors to even begin to try to objectively compare. To assign extra points to a school just because someone 'feels' like it's a better school than another (based on no truly objective measure) is really not fair at all. Not to mention that people go to different schools for different reasons.

In the end, the student made the choice to attend the school they did, and that choice should have been based on whichever school they thought they would do best at. You ("you" in general, not just you OP) made the decision to attend and stay at that school and it is ultimately up to you to deal with that decision.
 
timelesss said:
+1 I agree. There are just too many variables accross institutions, majors, classes, professors to even begin to try to objectively compare. To assign extra points to a school just because someone 'feels' like it's a better school than another (based on no truly objective measure) is really not fair at all. Not to mention that people go to different schools for different reasons.

In the end, the student made the choice to attend the school they did, and that choice should have been based on whichever school they thought they would do best at. You ("you" in general, not just you OP) made the decision to attend and stay at that school and it is ultimately up to you to deal with that decision.
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I'm not entirely sure this is true. I do think schools get a sense of many different undergraduate institutions that lets them start to understand what are the harder/easier classes, which professors pump out LORs (and so which students are they really recommending vs. just kind of recommending), how meaningful are certain common ECs, etc... I know of at least one place that explicitly told us that they divide applicants to sub-committees based on undergrad.

While I'm not sure if, or how well those differences get communicated, I wouldn't be too sure that medical schools don't actually look at those aforementioned subtleties.
 
Stabley17 said:
I'm not entirely sure this is true. I do think schools get a sense of many different undergraduate institutions that lets them start to understand what are the harder/easier classes, which professors pump out LORs (and so which students are they really recommending vs. just kind of recommending), how meaningful are certain common ECs, etc... I know of at least one place that explicitly told us that they divide applicants to sub-committees based on undergrad.

While I'm not sure if, or how well those differences get communicated, I wouldn't be too sure that medical schools don't actually look at those aforementioned subtleties.
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I don't think most adcoms have the time to examine these microscopic differences (undergrad name, teachers, what classes were taken, LoR writers reputation, etc). Honestly, I'm not even sure how closely anyone reads the transcript that is sent. Maybe some schools look at it that closely, but id imagine the vast vast majority do not.
 
Ivy league schools is not a measure of one's intelligence but a measure of one's pockets. During high school, a majority of my top 20 peers went to public schools/local private schools while only a few went to ivy leagues because nobody wanted to pay the high price tag. I think you and the girl of the story had an over-estimation of your own abilities and was eventually crushed by the real world.
 
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/Out on the lurk who thinks Ivy league schools are only a measure of one's money. One of the most ridiculous claims I've seen ITT.

There is a reason Harvard, Princeton, Columbia etc.. are ranked among the top 10 universities in the world every year. Harvard, for example, has graduated 47 Nobel Laureates, 32 heads of state, 48 Pulitzer Prize winners.. Take a look at the entrance statistics for some of these schools and get back to me.

Also, I did not go to an Ivy league school nor would I even consider Ivy league schools "the real world." and I can guarantee you I have a much firmer grasp on the real world than you do.


It's funny - explain the theory of relative deprivation and your personal story which relates to it and you don't have a good grasp of the real world. But have a username like hopelessgirl and yell "MY UNDERGRAD CAREER IS OVER HELLLLP" and you get pages of people to the rescue.
 
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Sigh. Did I say "only"? I simply do not think "Ivy league" as a metric for someone's intelligence. BUT I do think that they probably have deep pockets. HOWEVER, that's not to say there aren't tons of intelligent people at Ivy leagues.

Also, I did not state Ivy league schools as the "real world," and I'm not going to bother defining it for you. You are the one complaining about being sub par compared to your peers and saying your situation is "unfair" and picking a sad example during so. I'm not sure how firm of a grasp you have on the real world because this is how you sound: everyone around me is "smart" so I feel like it's unfair, and therefore I'm an underdog. For me, an underdog is someone who overcame serious adversity.

Btw, your thread is not "I effed up and I need help" but "I effed up but it's not my fault."
 
This may echo some points because I didnt read the whole thread, but if you felt like you were better prepared and got a lower GPA, the MCAT would show for it. Also, you got B's in gen chem, ochem>gen chem, so C's are possible and physics is its own animal and the courses can be performed poorly in regardless of how easy/hard your institution is. Unless you got A at one college, took the same course and got an F, how exactly are you comparing these?
 
GoldMember1 said:
It's funny - explain the theory of relative deprivation and your personal story which relates to it and you don't have a good grasp of the real world. But have a username like hopelessgirl and yell "MY UNDERGRAD CAREER IS OVER HELLLLP" and you get pages of people to the rescue.
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What more do you expect from this thread? You've gotten some responses concerning the validity of this theory and how it should affect admissions. How people respond to a different poster on a completely different topic is beside the point.

Also, your story isn't really relevant to the Caroline example. Your 3.6 at a random mid tier school hardly indicates that we're dealing with the cream of the undergrad crop here.
 
Stabley17 said:
I'm not entirely sure this is true. I do think schools get a sense of many different undergraduate institutions that lets them start to understand what are the harder/easier classes, which professors pump out LORs (and so which students are they really recommending vs. just kind of recommending), how meaningful are certain common ECs, etc... I know of at least one place that explicitly told us that they divide applicants to sub-committees based on undergrad.

While I'm not sure if, or how well those differences get communicated, I wouldn't be too sure that medical schools don't actually look at those aforementioned subtleties.
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I do believe there is a little of it at play because it is pretty much inevitable, but again I think it is just too variable and subject to too many errors for us to suggest for it to play an even bigger role in admissions than it already does. I mean it's hard to know because we're not adcoms, but I imagine it'd be pretty hard to turn down the 3.9 humanities major for the 3.5 engineering major just because one program is said to be harder than the other....

GoldMember1 said:
It's funny - explain the theory of relative deprivation and your personal story which relates to it and you don't have a good grasp of the real world. But have a username like hopelessgirl and yell "MY UNDERGRAD CAREER IS OVER HELLLLP" and you get pages of people to the rescue.
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Frankly the issue I have with that theory is there needs to be more personal accountability. In the end, the student choose to attend X university, take X major, and take X courses.
 
Wow, you went to Brown and got bad grades. I am really impressed. What a victim you must have been. I am feeling very sorry for you, a poor, intelligent pre-med who was unable to reach his dreams because of unfairness and circumstance.
 
Antihistamine said:
Ivy league schools is not a measure of one's intelligence but a measure of one's pockets. During high school, a majority of my top 20 peers went to public schools/local private schools while only a few went to ivy leagues because nobody wanted to pay the high price tag. I think you and the girl of the story had an over-estimation of your own abilities and was eventually crushed by the real world.
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Actually this is a misconception. Many (most?) of the ivies have endowments that allow them to admit need-blind with guaranteed financial aid up to the student's 'demonstrated need'. So the cost of attendance for a lower SES student can be *lower* at many of the ivies than at other schools.

Those grapes were probably sour anyway...
 
DokterMom said:
Actually this is a misconception. Many (most?) of the ivies have endowments that allow them to admit need-blind with guaranteed financial aid up to the student's 'demonstrated need'. So the cost of attendance for a lower SES student can be *lower* at many of the ivies than at other schools.

Those grapes were probably sour anyway...
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+1 This is one SDN cliche that needs to die. There are many good reasons qualified students chose not to attend or apply to Ivy League schools, but unless you've got a generous scholarship somewhere else, money shouldn't be one of them.
 
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DokterMom said:
Actually this is a misconception. Many (most?) of the ivies have endowments that allow them to admit need-blind with guaranteed financial aid up to the student's 'demonstrated need'. So the cost of attendance for a lower SES student can be *lower* at many of the ivies than at other schools.

Those grapes were probably sour anyway...
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There are a number of students who aren't necessary lower SES and as such don't qualify for the need based aids but still don't make enough for 50G a year? Mmm...
 
Antihistamine said:
There are a number of students who aren't necessary lower SES and as such don't qualify for the need based aids but still don't make enough for 50G a year? Mmm...
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Your financial aid package wasn't adequate? I'm sorry to hear that.

Or are you assuming?
 
Chipster. said:
I don't think I've ever agreed less with someone who posts on these forums. The way you think is just...wrong.

Edit: Ruralsurg4now was up there too.
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Why am I wrong? And I didn't even go to an Ivy leage
 
sourdoughllama said:
I thought he went to Brown university, RI?
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no that was Caroline, some person from a book.
He said he did not go to an ivy league. OP said he went to a school right in the middle of Brown and a community college..
It wasn’t Brown University, but it wasn’t a community college either. It probably falls smack dab in between the two.
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Also, I did not go to an Ivy league school nor would I even consider Ivy league schools "the real world." and I can guarantee you I have a much firmer grasp on the real world than you do.
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terp720 said:
no that was Caroline, some person from a book.
He said he did not go to an ivy league. OP said he went to a school right in the middle of Brown and a community college..
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Either way, I was saying I didn't go to an Ivy because you all are gonna think I'm bias because I went to an Ivy. But in reality, people who go to Ivy leagues are so smart and driven unlike other schools. That is all my friends
 
DokterMom said:
Your financial aid package wasn't adequate? I'm sorry to hear that.

Or are you assuming?
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This is a narrow minded viewpoint and not backed up by data. Sure, at an ivy you may be offered financial aid, but compare that to scholarships+fin aid at your state university and it's often blown out of the water. If you're an especially smart premed and know undergrad name doesn't matter one lick for admissions (and you know there are ample opportunities at said state school), the question becomes would you rather spend a lot of extra cash to look good at family functions, or save a fair amount of money and have an equal shot at a prestigious, top med school.
 
sourdoughllama said:
Either way, I was saying I didn't go to an Ivy because you all are gonna think I'm bias because I went to an Ivy. But in reality, people who go to Ivy leagues are so smart and driven unlike other schools. That is all my friends
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oh I wasn't actually paying attention to that lol. I just saw your post about ":bow: OP you da boss"
But there are plenty of people at other schools that are smart and driven.
 
terp720 said:
oh I wasn't actually paying attention to that lol. I just saw your post about ":bow: OP you da boss"
But there are plenty of people at other schools that are smart and driven.
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Not to mention less high-strung haha.
 
terp720 said:
oh I wasn't actually paying attention to that lol. I just saw your post about ":bow: OP you da boss"
But there are plenty of people at other schools that are smart and driven.
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I don't think I've yet met anyone that is Ivy-worthy who doesn't go to the Ivy league yet. THey just on a whole nother level. It's like gosh...why can't I be amazing like them
 
sourdoughllama said:
I don't think I've yet met anyone that is Ivy-worthy who doesn't go to the Ivy league yet. THey just on a whole nother level. It's like gosh...why can't I be amazing like them
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What? Plenty of people get into ivy league schools and choose not to go to them.. if that's what you meant?
 
terp720 said:
What? Plenty of people get into ivy league schools and choose not to go to them.. if that's what you meant?
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Probably cus they can't hang! Ivy league material will be at ivy leagues all day long. No doubt. This is why I am for the idea that ivy league GPAs should get a boost over other schools. It's only fair
 
sourdoughllama said:
Probably cus they can't hang! Ivy league material will be at ivy leagues all day long. No doubt. This is why I am for the idea that ivy league GPAs should get a boost over other schools. It's only fair
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I turned down ivy league acceptances because I made a profit by going to my state school. Pretty sure I would have been fine if I had made a different choice.
If you're confident in your plan to go to med school, no point in coming out of UG in debt..
 
terp720 said:
I turned down ivy league acceptances because I made a profit by going to my state school. Pretty sure I would have been fine if I had made a different choice.
If you're confident in your plan to go to med school, no point in coming out of UG in debt..
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Beautiful post. I have changed my mind
 
Antihistamine said:
I don't even...what the eff?
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I was replying to a post that basically reiterated the old canard that 'ordinary people' can't afford to go to an Ivy League university. Certainly, there will be cases where another college makes a better financial aid offer (like @terp720) but to blindly assert that a middle income family can't afford it without having the specific information in hand that one would get from applying and receiving a specific financial aid package -- well, that's a blind assertion. And in many, many cases, it's untrue. And it perpetuates the myths and biases that slow the rate of change and implementation of true diversity.
 
DokterMom said:
I was replying to a post that basically reiterated the old canard that 'ordinary people' can't afford to go to an Ivy League university. Certainly, there will be cases where another college makes a better financial aid offer (like @terp720) but to blindly assert that a middle income family can't afford it without having the specific information in hand that one would get from applying and receiving a specific financial aid package -- well, that's a blind assertion. And in many, many cases, it's untrue. And it perpetuates the myths and biases that slow the rate of change and implementation of true diversity.
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What @Antihistamine is describing is exactly what happened to me... I did apply and get a financial aid package and scholarships.
My family made enough to not qualify for aid, but not enough to be able to afford the tuition without being in considerable debt after graduation.
 
DokterMom said:
I was replying to a post that basically reiterated the old canard that 'ordinary people' can't afford to go to an Ivy League university. Certainly, there will be cases where another college makes a better financial aid offer (like @terp720) but to blindly assert that a middle income family can't afford it without having the specific information in hand that one would get from applying and receiving a specific financial aid package -- well, that's a blind assertion. And in many, many cases, it's untrue. And it perpetuates the myths and biases that slow the rate of change and implementation of true diversity.
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This is not a myth, and this is not an assumption. This is something that happens on a day to day bases. The salutatorian of my high school class went to an Ivy league came out 200k in debt, and there's a reason why my valedictorian with almost perfect SAT went to a local place that gave a full ride. There is a large gap in this society where a family's income is sufficient to not qualify for substantial aid and not able to afford tuition. Even if your family makes 150k before taxes, 50k of after tax money that you can put towards undergraduate is a luxury people can't afford.

Also, I believe Harvard and Yale has some kind of EFC based on income but that's not the norm.
 
Microglia said:
This is a narrow minded viewpoint and not backed up by data.
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Click http://drunkonlife.net/malcolm-gladwell-on-relative-deprivation-theory/ watch the video and get back to me.

"Your odds of getting a science and math degree fall by 2% points for every 10 point increase in the average SAT score of you institution." - Mitchell Chang

That means your chances of successfully completing a science degree are 30% higher at University of Maryland compared to Harvard. That's a big deal for a premed student.

I gave you a real life example (besides mine) and absolutely backed it up by data. If you want more examples pick up the book.

You are correct, however, that I should have been smarter, gone against what my parents and the advisor said- stayed at my first institution and kept my grades up. I 'de have a better shot at being in med school right now.
 
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terp720 said:
no that was Caroline, some person from a book.
He said he did not go to an ivy league. OP said he went to a school right in the middle of Brown and a community college..
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If you read my OP, I did not go to Brown. I went to a school a school in between Brown and a CC but then transferred to a more prestigious institution. A school that is ranked amongst them.

But you guys are missing the point, it isn't about Ivy league schools. It's about schools across the board. You are normalized in your classes based on your peers. If you go to University of Maryland you are normalized against other UM students. UM students are on average smarter than students at Devry (example, there are exceptions).

So your telling me a person who gets Cs at UM doesn't deserve to go to med school over someone who gets As at Devry?
 
Let me give you guys another example:

I recently spoke to a friend of mine about this phenomena and he completely agrees, said it holds true in Medical School as well.

His sister went to undergrad and received very good grades and did VERY well on the MCAT. When she applied to medical school, she got into Duke, UNC, WashU, Michigan and school XYZ. School XYZ isn't as prestigious as WashU but it isn't the bottom of the barrel either.

What school do you think she chose? School XYZ.

You know why?
She said, "I'de rather be a big fish in a small pond, than a small fish in a big one."

She graduated top 10% of her class.
 
GoldMember1 said:
If you read my OP, I did not go to Brown. I went to a school a school in between Brown and a CC but then transferred to a more prestigious institution. A school that is ranked amongst them.

But you guys are missing the point, it isn't about Ivy league schools. It's about schools across the board. You are normalized in your classes based on your peers. If you go to University of Maryland you are normalized against other UM students. UM students are on average smarter than students at Devry (example, there are exceptions).

So your telling me a person who gets Cs at UM doesn't deserve to go to med school over someone who gets As at Devry?
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No one deserves to go to medical school. You earn that right.
http://www.gradeinflation.com/
You should take a look at the average GPA across a couple of different schools.
 
Antihistamine said:
No one deserves to go to medical school. You earn that right.
http://www.gradeinflation.com/
You should take a look at the average GPA across a couple of different schools.
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All I see are trends and this "There are many factors that contribute to grade inflation and quantitative assessments of causes will likely prove to be inconclusive."

There are too many factors that influence average GPAs in public vs private schools than to just say, "Private schools give higher grades for a lower quality of work." based on the data presented.

My point is true amongst public institutions as well. (ie. students that receive lower grades at UNC vs a smaller state school.)
 
GoldMember1 said:
Click http://drunkonlife.net/malcolm-gladwell-on-relative-deprivation-theory/ watch the video and get back to me.

"Your odds of getting a science and math degree fall by 2% points for every 10 point increase in the average SAT score of you institution." - Mitchell Chang

That means your chances of successfully completing a science degree are 30% higher at University of Maryland compared to Harvard. That's a big deal for a premed student.

I gave you a real life example (besides mine) and absolutely backed it up by data. If you want more examples pick up the book.

You are correct, however, that I should have been smarter, gone against what my parents and the advisor said- stayed at my first institution and kept my grades up. I 'de have a better shot at being in med school right now.
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This jump in logic is so flawed I don't even know where to start, so I'm not going to. It's like saying there's a 3% increase in crime for every additional police officer in a city. Yikes. I think I see where the real problems lies here now...
 
GoldMember1 said:
All I see are trends and this "There are many factors that contribute to grade inflation and quantitative assessments of causes will likely prove to be inconclusive."

There are too many factors that influence average GPAs in public vs private schools than to just say, "Private schools give higher grades for a lower quality of work." based on the data presented.

My point is true amongst public institutions as well. (ie. students that receive lower grades at UNC vs a smaller state school.)
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You're saying it's hard to make a high GPA because everyone in your class is so smart right?
http://www.gradeinflation.com/Brown.html
compared to
http://www.gradeinflation.com/Alabama.html
How would you interpret this?
I see it as the GPA at the 50th percentile is 3.61 for Brown. (not sure what that says about the Caroline girl btw..) Doesn't seem that hard to make a decent grade at all?
 
You know why?
She said, "I'de rather be a big fish in a small pond, than a small fish in a big one."
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For many people, a very valid strategy and a good way to live.
 
GoldMember1 said:
There are too many factors that influence average GPAs in public vs private schools than to just say, "Private schools give higher grades for a lower quality of work." based on the data presented
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Substitute "private schools" with "public schools" and you've debunked your entire premise.
 
GoldMember1 said:
I wish someone would have told me this before I chose to transfer.

As HS students we're told that we have to get a high GPA and perform well on the SAT to get into a great college. You come out of HS hoping to get into the best school you can. However, as you point out, that's not necessarily the best advice for someone pursuing medicine. Instead, HS students should be advised to come somewhere where they can be above the curve and perform well on the MCAT. While I agree with you and appreciate the advice, it misses my question - Should premed students from top institutions, who are in an environment where they are compared to the best undergrads in the US be assessed differently than students at other institutions? If not, why?
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OP, which university did you transfer into, if you don't mind me asking?
 
GoldMember1 said:
To me these are extremely revealing statistics. Why is it that 55% of the top students at Hartwick, with Math Sat scores clearly below the bottom Harvard students, are able to stay in science (and go off to professional schools)? Yet, only 15% of the bottom STEM majors at Harvard, with Math SAT scores well above the top Hartwick students, have the same opportunities.
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Your point, while valid, is damaged significantly by this comparison. It is a well-known fact that grade inflation is rampant at the ivies.

At the end of the day, medical school admissions is about gaming the system. You gain no points majoring in mathematical physics at Virginia Tech and even if you're talented enough to get a 3.8, the dance major at Podunk U with a 4.0 will always be chosen by ad-coms over you all things being equal. Is it right? No. But complaining about it doesn't change anything, and arming yourself with this knowledge to game the system is the best practical way you can ensure your seat in medical school.
 
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