Deadline to swtich positions

[ButIwantneuro]

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I am a PGY 1 (prelim medicine) in a caregorical program (not medicine). I was thinking of switching specialties, and I have heard rumors that I should tell my program director (for my specialty) about switching my January 15. Is this true?

 

[Iamnotme]

I am a PGY 1 (prelim medicine) in a caregorical program (not medicine). I was thinking of switching specialties, and I have heard rumors that I should tell my program director (for my specialty) about switching my January 15. Is this true?

How are you in prelim medicine if you are going into a categorical specialty? That is confusing. The January 15 deadline applies for a waiver for the NRMP in your advanced position, I assume by which you mean your "specialty."

If you want to switch out of your advanced/terminal specialty, then January 15 is the deadline by which you can petition for a waiver to the NRMP. Otherwise you'll have to wait until you start to apply to anything.

 

[ButIwantneuro]

How are you in prelim medicine if you are going into a categorical specialty? That is confusing. The January 15 deadline applies for a waiver for the NRMP in your advanced position, I assume by which you mean your "specialty."

If you want to switch out of your advanced/terminal specialty, then January 15 is the deadline by which you can petition for a waiver to the NRMP. Otherwise you'll have to wait until you start to apply to anything.

Lets say I matched into categorical radiology or neurology, and am now a PGY 1 in medicine, I didnt match into a prelim medicine and advanced program.

 

[Winged Scapula]

You need to ask for a match waiver from NRMP before January 15 to be released from your Advanced program position.

 

[Iamnotme]

Lets say I matched into categorical radiology or neurology, and am now a PGY 1 in medicine, I didnt match into a prelim medicine and advanced program.

Are you saying you are in the medicine year of your categorical program? I think that in that case, there is no waiver you need, since it's the same program, vs. prelim and advanced.

 

[rokshana]

i'm confused…usually a categorical position INCLUDES the prelim year…an advanced position usually requires a separate intern year and then you start the advanced position as a PGY 2 ( but is labelled as 1st year for the specialty…R1 for 1st year of radiology for example)…

so if you say matched Radiology into a categorical position, then you would be doing your intern year as a part of your radiology match...

 

[Winged Scapula]

It sounds to me as if the OP matched into an Advanced specialty but did not match into an intern spot, thus SOAPing into his current PGY-1 position.

 

[ButIwantneuro]

Are you saying you are in the medicine year of your categorical program? I think that in that case, there is no waiver you need, since it's the same program, vs. prelim and advanced.

Yes! This is what I mean. I'm in the medicine year of my categorical program (sorry if this is confusing). Does the January 15 waiver thing apply to me?

 

[Iamnotme]

Yes! This is what I mean. I'm in the medicine year of my categorical program (sorry if this is confusing). Does the January 15 waiver thing apply to me?

That's what I figured. Now that we are clear on that, I think that it does not apply since it's technically the same program, but I am not entirely sure. You would need to get a waiver by Jan. 15 if you had prelim/transitional + advanced, but since you are in one program, I think that as long as you have fulfilled your 45 day time frame, which I assume you have if you started July 1, then you should be fine to apply to other programs if you wanted to.

However, to be safe, you should probably call the NRMP and ask them.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yes that was confusing. All you needed to say was that you were a PGY-1.

The above poster is correct. The January 15 deadline does not apply to you.

Bear in mind that the later you tell your program director the less chance they will have to be able to fill your position for next year, which could lead to some hard feelings .

You will be given a contract to sign for next year by April at the latest, so you will have to notify them by that time.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I believe the OP's situation is this: Many Advanced programs have discovered that people really, really like a guaranteed prelim year -- it's more convenient, plus it's a huge plus for the couple's match (where the prelim match is not couple's matched to anything). Therefore, previously Advanced matches are working out deals with their home prelim program to offer a Categorical match -- 1 year of IM, followed by X years of the other specialty. Anesthesia fully embraced this model, but actually built a specific prelim experience (the CBY year) and offers both Categorical and Advanced. Neuro is now moving this way, especially because it's a buyer's market -- all the neuro programs are competing for the best applicants, and a Categorical match (instead of Advanced + take your chances in the prelim match) is seen as a big plus.

Assuming this is what happened (i.e. the OP matched into Categorical Neurology or something similar), the answer remains the same as above. As far as the NRMP is concerned, you matched only once -- into your categorical program. You have no match commitment to start your "neuro" training, and you don't need to worry about the Jan 15 deadline. On the other hand, as a professional it would be best to do the "right" thing. If you're going to give up your PGY-2 spot, it would be much better to do so before the match so that your "neuro" program can look at their applicants, see if someone could start a year early, and offer them the spot.

 

[thepretender67]

let's say you match in a prelim program + advanced spot (ie. ophto, neuro, rads) - then during pgy1 , you want to entertain the possibility of switching into a different specialty. Is it possible to get an NRMP waiver in order to interview at other programs without telling your home program?

The reason for this would be to still maintain a good relationship with your home program and not jeopardize anything until you actually have some interview offers in hand.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You can get a waiver if you ask for it before Dec 15th for changing specialty -- and if you do, it's (essentially) automatically granted. But your program is notified, and they they work on refilling the position. You can't get it back -- nor can you match into that field again. I thought the deadline was Jan 15, but the NRMP site now says Dec 15 -- either they changed it, or I have misremembered.

Your next question is "Can I interview for a new spot before I ask for the waiver?". Technically, it's a match violation to do it. If you were to do it, get an offer, and then apply for the waiver -- if the NRMP figured that out they could technically consider it a match violation, revoke your match, and prevent your new program from taking you. Would they do that? Probably not, but they could.

 

[thepretender67]

Is it Possible to be granted a waiver, then in the mean time interview for other programs, but then go back to your original program if you are unable to find a position?

Basically you need to risk going without a spot the following year in order to even interview/talk to another specialty ?

 

[deleted103644]

Is it Possible to be granted a waiver, then in the mean time interview for other programs, but then go back to your original program if you are unable to find a position?

Basically you need to risk going without a spot the following year in order to even interview/talk to another specialty ?

Your former program will start trying to replace you as soon as they are notified. Odds are good that they will fill it, so yeah, that's the risk.

 

[gutonc]

Is it Possible to be granted a waiver, then in the mean time interview for other programs, but then go back to your original program if you are unable to find a position?

Basically you need to risk going without a spot the following year in order to even interview/talk to another specialty ?

No, you can't play both ends against the middle. You need to decide whether you're going with your original matched advanced specialty position, or if you're out and want something else (categorical IM or GS depending on your prelim) or another advanced specialty.

Once you waive an advanced spot, that's it for that specialty. I suppose (but do not know for certain) that it's possible that if you and your matched advanced program got to the end of the Match process and found yourselves both lacking a spot/resident then your prior advanced PD could agree to take you back. But it's much more likely that s/he would tell you to take a long walk off a short pier.

Fish or cut bait.

 

[thepretender67]

I have a question: let's say one were willing to take the risk of a match violation by talking to programs before a waiver, would the chances of you being caught be much higher if you were re applying through the match via eras (can you even apply through eras with a prior match and without a waiver) than vs talking to a program that is filling an open position not through eras / match. For example, I believe most psych pgy2 spots are not filled through the match?

 

[gutonc]

I have a question: let's say you just ask the question you want answered instead of dicking around with hypotheticals, would you get a useful answer then?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

My personal opinion is that it is OK to talk to programs about possible openings, but that when you get to the interview stage you need to get a waiver before I can interview you. This isn't based upon any "rule" anywhere, its my personal compromise but seems concordant with NRMP rules.

 

[Winged Scapula]

You can't get it back -- nor can you match into that field again. I thought the deadline was Jan 15, but the NRMP site now says Dec 15 -- either they changed it, or I have misremembered.

I remember January 15 as the deadline as well so I suspect that they changed it.

 

[thepretender67]

would it be possible to apply through eras to another specialty without a waiver? Then if I actually receive interviews that I am interested in, I could then request a waiver from my home program? Or basically, would no program interview you if they see you have a prior match (can they see this?)

 

[mcl]

would it be possible to apply through eras to another specialty without a waiver? Then if I actually receive interviews that I am interested in, I could then request a waiver from my home program? Or basically, would no program interview you if they see you have a prior match (can they see this?)

Programs are supposed to check an applicant's match history prior to offering an interview. I think that if you're going beyond the exploratory phone call/email all the way to actually applying through ERAS, you need that waiver.

 

[thepretender67]

well i guess the limiting factor is whether or not programs you can apply to through eras can see if you have a waiver or not, correct? They may see you have matched somewhere else previously, but may assume that you have the waiver or just not be aware? Then still offer you the interview.

Additionally, it's risky even applying through eras bc technically any program you apply to then could contact your originally matched program to see your status?

 

[mcl]

well i guess the limiting factor is whether or not programs you can apply to through eras can see if you have a waiver or not, correct? They may see you have matched somewhere else previously, but may assume that you have the waiver or just not be aware? Then still offer you the interview.

Additionally, it's risky even applying through eras bc technically any program you apply to then could contact your originally matched program to see your status?

Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the match history would indicate whether a waiver had been granted. Without verification of the waiver, I'd be risking a match violation by inviting you to interview at my program. It's on me to check and make sure the people we interview are eligible--I wouldn't just make that assumption unless the applicant is still in medical school.

There's just no "testing the waters" loophole for your scenario. If you no longer want to pursue your matched specialty, that's one thing. You let NRMP know and get a waiver. But you can't hold onto your matched spot as a back up plan while you go through the application process again.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

mcl (and you) are correct. It is NOT listed in ERAS whether you have a waiver or not. But I can log into the NRMP and look it up quickly. And if you apply to a good number of programs and if ANY of them contact your program, you could be in a world of trouble.

 

[bluebird17]

what if I am in a categorical program PGY1 not the advanced etc. does waiver apply to me if I want to go through match?

 

[Raryn]

what if I am in a categorical program PGY1 not the advanced etc. does waiver apply to me if I want to go through match?

No. You don't need a waiver. Your match obligation ended 45 days after you started your terminal program.