Dean's Letter

[wick215]

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Why do most programs wait for the dean's letter in November 1? I was told simply to look at class ranking. Anyone care to comment?

 

[The White Coat Investor]

Many schools don't have class rankings. I think most PDs scan the Dean's Letter for red flags, then throw it away. However, PDs have actually been asked (I believe by the AAMC, but perhaps by an EM organization like CORD) to wait for the Dean's Letter before extending invites.

 

[iwakuni_doc]

I just got back from the ACEP Scientific Assembly where I spoke with several program directors at the residency fair & some of them seemed genuinely surprised that a lot of other programs had offered me interviews before the Dean's letter came out (Duke's PD really stands out as being surprised).

 

[wick215]

Thanks for your input!

 

[samdaman]

Thats a relief.... So basically, if there are'nt any red flags, the Dean's letter is nothing but another document stating the greatness of the institution/candidate... so the PD knows that atleast he was'nt a failure, or the institution is'nt on the moon...
does it really make a difference how the dean puts down his comments in the last paragraph.. terms like "excellent student", "highest recommendation"?

 

[wick215]

Back to the Dean's letter..... My letter has my class ranking, which is very low. However my grades are good. I am receiving interviews but am afrain that programs will not want me b/c of the class ranking.

 

[jazz]

does it really make a difference how the dean puts down his comments in the last paragraph.. terms like "excellent student", "highest recommendation"?

when i applied a lot of people were talking about how that is "code" for how well a person is ranked, especially if schools don't have rank. i don't know if that is true or not.

i do believe, however, that in the field of er, rank in med school is not as important as your letter and grade from EM rotations as well as your interview. i think the dean's letter is only hurtful in EM if it says that you cheated your way through med school or something along those lines.

the reason the letters are so important is that em is such a small field that everyone knows everyone and so the letters mean more. also, since we rely so much on the signout and entrusting our signouts to other people, no one wants someone who is not a "team player"

 

[wick215]

Thank you for the reply. I have two letters of rec from EM physicians that are wonderful and about one page in length. So I hope that the letters will help where as the ranking will not.

 

[DrQuinn]

My program has allowed us as the interns (we're the first class) to help with the application process. We have given out a large %age of our interviews pre-Dean's letter. To ME (and who I am, but a four month old intern), what I would use as criteria are the interview, LORs, and board scores. We have almost 600 applicants for 6 spots, so it almost becomes a necessity to use some form of evaluation as a cut off (i.e. board scores).

But I think once everyone gets an interview, the actual interview itself will be the big clincher for us, since we'll be a relatively small program (18 residents total in three years).

Q, DO

 

[wick215]

Quinn,

Interview, LORs , and board scores, do you evaluate in that order (for a residency slot)? Also, how many interviews does your program intend on offering?

 

[Lumberg]

Quinn,

Thanks for the info. Are you saying the playing field is essentially leveled once an interview is offered? Man, I hope so b/c my Board scores suck! I hope to see you at USF in a couple of months. Thanks again for all the great posts!

 

[jazz]

agree with quinn. i think most programs use a cutoff just to narrow down the shear number of applicants. however, once you have an interview, i think you are level (ie no one really talks about board scores anymore) but more about the interview day, interactions with interviewers and residents, and letters. i don't think class rank is really used for cutoff b/c it varies so much from school to school and not all schools rank.

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by wick215
Quinn,

Interview, LORs , and board scores, do you evaluate in that order (for a residency slot)? Also, how many interviews does your program intend on offering?

Remember, those are just what I (as MYSELF) am using. I think the biggest factor for me is that the people in our program get along and there won't be any issues working with each other...

I htink we are offering about 100 interviews, not quite sure.

Q, DO

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by Lumberg
Quinn,

Thanks for the info. Are you saying the playing field is essentially leveled once an interview is offered? Man, I hope so b/c my Board scores suck! I hope to see you at USF in a couple of months. Thanks again for all the great posts!

Well, I cannot speak for the PDs or the attendings who interview, but I think for the few programs that allow interns/residents to interviewt he applicants, I'm sure they feel the same way I do. I had great board scores, one of my colleauges didn't, and he (I feel) is a much stronger intern than I. Board scores don't mean much except how you can take a test.

'Member, there are soooooooooo many applications that a program has to review... i think some EM programs get 800+ by the end of the season (we're at 600 I think now), that is a LOT of applications to review. You just HAVE to use some sort of criteria to filter out a few applicants. I mean, how varying do you think the personal statements can be?!? 🙂
Q, DO

 

[vtach]

So no looking at prior work experiences?

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by vtach
So no looking at prior work experiences?

Come on now don't be nit picky, of course, I was just giving a general statement.

Q, DO

 

[colforbinMD]

Ok Quinn you had to know this was coming. What score are YOU useing?

 

[vtach]

Originally posted by drkp
Ok Quinn you had to know this was coming. What score are YOU useing?

That is not a fair question. I would not answer it if I was Quinn. many factors might be taken into account. Yes I am sure that there is a number, but posting it here is not the right place.

 

[colforbinMD]

Why is that not a fair question? He admitted to a cut off point. As a potential future applicant I want to know what that cutoff point is. Sure if your only one point above the cuttoff your LORs and interview and what not might still be enough to get you a spot. I didn't argue that. I simply asked what the cutoff is to get you that interview.

 

[vtach]

I guess I think it is tacky to ask. Kind of like asking a lady her weight.(Hmmmm I seem to be doing that a lot more since I have been in Medical School)😀

 

[iwakuni_doc]

There's a point at which you've got to respect Quinn for being on the opposite side of the interview fence - how many other programs are publishing their board score cut-off points?

Just because Quinn has been overwhelming open & helpful on these forums, does not mean that we the right to ask that specific of information.

 

[colforbinMD]

Still not sure asking that was inappropriate at all and I would still LOVE to have an answer. I agree very much that Quinn has been very helpful and informative especially since he is now on the "other side". It's for this very reason I hoped he might answer my question. If my question is at all offensive to Quinn I apologize and withdraw it imediatey.
That being said I am pretty sure it will not be since he was not too long ago in a similar position as myself (potential EM applicant) and wanted to know, as I do, how his board scores fit into what programs were looking for. I submit that almost EVERYONE on this board has wondered that at some point or another. So what's the problem with me asking the question to someone who stands in a position to help answer it for me. If he does not want to post it for the whole board perhaps he could PM me. Either way I don't see how it is tacky or improper to ask. Why is it such a secret. If nothing else posting the cutoffs used would save them from having so many applicants to look through.

 

[SupportingOccam]

Originally posted by drkp
Either way I don't see how it is tacky or improper to ask. Why is it such a secret.

Quinn is trying to help others out here. You don't get to positions of responsibility by being irresponsible, so why ask him to publish the inner workings of his program's selection process? Why abuse his helping nature? It's tacky and improper. Hopefully this comes to you before 100 people have to chime in with the same sentiment.

If nothing else posting the cutoffs used would save them from having so many applicants to look through.

If they have a cut-off, then they don't look through "so many applicants." Quinn has said numerous times that it is prudent to apply to every program you are interested in. Take that advice to the bank, and get over the cut-off issue.

 

[DrQuinn]

*SIGH*
I don't use the board scores as a cut off. I (emphasis I) do not. A) Because I didn't take the USMLE, I took the COMLEX. 215, 225, 195, 265? Doesn't mean squat to me. I honestly don't know how to interpret those scores, so it is pretty useless to me to use board scores as criteria. It is NOT however useless for the PD or the other attendings at this program who do know how to interpret the USMLE. The biggest thing for me was LORs. You can get a feel for the applicant and how they meshed with a program via their LOR.

And I was NOT obsessed with board scores when a whopping one year ago I was an applicant. Yeah, I scored very well on the COMLEX, but I did not take the USMLE. Even if I had only scored 50%ile on the COMLEX, I still would have applied to the same # of programs, I still would have gone at my application the same way as I did last year.

One point that I wish would get across to everyone on SDN is this...

If you scored a 24 on the MCAT, are you NOT going to apply? Why not just apply anyways and see what happens?

If you score 60% on the USMLE but "heard" that programs are looking at 65%+, would that mean you would quit your dream of becoming a ****ologist and apply to IM programs?

No matter what you hear on this board or from yoru friend's older roommate who applied in the match the year before, it is all anecdotal evidence. NO ONE knows what the hades is going through the PD's head when they give the final yay or nay on an interview offer.

So my advice is to just apply, push a little harder on the programs you REALLY want to go to, and just see what the dice give you. Lord knows I got enough rejection letters to start a campfire with... who knows why MCV didn't offer me a interview (I wanted to go back to the DC area), but, what the hey, life goes on.

BTW I'm still waiting to hear from UVA or Hopkins, they never sent me a rejection letter...

Back to trauma...
Q, DO

 

[jazz]

again, have to agree with quinn. at this point, your board scores are what they are. apply to all programs you want to go to and give it a shot. if you get an interview, then excel there. like i said earlier, i really think at most places once you get an interview you're on equal footing. b/c from interview day, everyone remembers your personality, how you interacted, etc and not your board score.

and for those who haven't taken boards yet, does it really matter what the cutoff is? i would study as hard as possible and do as well as possible so that you have no regrets when you apply for residency? i mean, you may want to do EM now, but decide to change to derm later, in which case a higher board score helps.

 

[grouptherapy]

i just got off the phone with miss cleo and she said the cutoff is 200.

 

[kungfufishing]

Quinn, could you post the sentence you look for in the letters that make the cut? also, what is the winning PS paragraph? In my application photo, should I look serious, smile a little, medium, or great big?
totally kidding. you had to know it was coming...

 

[DrQuinn]

Originally posted by kungfufishing

could you post the sentence you look for in the letters that make the cut?

Sure. "I want to match into EM because that's what QuinnNSU, mikecwru, Apollyon, ERMudPhud, Jazz, and Sessamoid practice, they are the shizzle-fizzle."

In my application photo, should I look serious, smile a little, medium, or great big?

You should give the sultry dilated pupil/hopped up on belladonna look. That's what I want our intern class to have.

Actually when I was interviewing in PA last year, one of the attendings "made fun" of one of the applicants, some guy, for his photo on ERAS, scanned in this HUGE picture that took up the WHOLE paper. It was pretty darn funny!

Q, DO

 

[colforbinMD]

I really hate needlessly argumentative posts and threads but I also don't like being judged as an A hole or inconsiderate person of questionable paternal lineage. Quinn said he does not use board scores as most are USMLE and he took Comlex. Fair enough. A simple misunderstanding on my part. When he said in and earlier post.
"To ME (and who I am, but a four month old intern), what I would use as criteria are the interview, LORs, and board scores. We have almost 600 applicants for 6 spots, so it almost becomes a necessity to use some form of evaluation as a cut off (i.e. board scores)."
I took that as meaning for his personal standard HE has a board score he uses as a cut off. Note to the other person who commented above I did not ever ask anything about the inner workings of his program or his PDs cutoff points. Simply his own. Now I have learned he doesn't have one so I withdraw my question. As for comparing what I asked to what sentence I should put in my PS or how I should pose for my pic. Funny. Seriously made me laugh. Like most humor it is funny because of it's rediculous exageration. As to the several comments of stop worrying about a cut off and just apply anyway there is a certain amount of folly in that advice. Dreams are wonderful but they are not guarantee's and as such it is always a good idea to have contingency plans. I.E. back up IM applications. With the financial and time burdens involved in residency applications it would be silly IMHO to NOT concern yourself with where your application fits in in the grand scheme of things. So if after reading where I am coming from you still think I was out of line in the original question then we will have to agree to disagree.
P.S. Ask Miss Cleo for me which programs are the best fit for me?
😀 If she isn't available I look to you Quinn to figure it all out for me.

 

[DrQuinn]

My main response is that EM is not THAT competitive. It is about mid-pack in regards to competitiveness. Far more competitive than IM or the other Primary Care specialties, but far less than ortho/optho etc. If you are an average applicant with a decent all around package, you will match somewhere, likely in your top 3. If you are a subpar applicant, you will probably still match somewhere, although perhaps not at your top of the list. Last year two of the people on this site didn't match initially, one scrambled in a spot and the other (who I think was a great person and I would totally push for) is doing IM... there are probably 100-200 people using the SDN EM forums (as indicated by the # of views and # of posts, per my own guesstimations)... so a # of 4-6% unmatched (which is what i think the figures are) isn't that far off.

When I was a medical student, I was SO worried about the competitiveness of EM. But as long as you apply to lots of places (I applied to 40+, cost me well over 800 bucks, not to mention the cost of interviewing), you should match somewhere... and if not you can do an internship and reapply.

Q, DO