Dear AVMA

[WhtsThFrequency]

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Members do not see this ad.

AVMA:

What the heck do you do for me? I mean really. Why do I have to shell out 150 dollars a year just so I can say I am a member and get a little sticker to put on my office door? 🙄

Just a rant but....I'm really having a tough time with this supposed governing body, or whatever the heck they want to be. Why on earth should I pay them all these dues? Last time I checked, they never did anything for me.

SAVMA in school was useless, too. I refused to be a member until they threatened to remove me from my position in an unaffiliated club as the Shelter Food Donation Coordinator. Elitism at its finest.

Sorry, just a rant. What are ya'all's opinion on the AVMA? Frankly, I can see if helping some small animal practitioners...but honestly, what do they do??? Sit up there and make statements and push out a (not so great) journal? Fund some scholarships? Why do I need cough up dough for an organization that doesn't help me, just so I can see "Gee whiz look at me, I'm an AVMA member!"

Ridiculous....maybe it is a matter of difference in field, but ACVP is MUCH more useful to me than AVMA, for example. maybe AVMA is more useful to local practitioners or lawmakers even. I just don't see why I need to be a member just because 'everyone else' is and throw hundreds of dollars at them.

 

[HopefulAg]

SAVMA gives me 'free' food. Beyond that, nothing.

 

[cuitlamiztli]

I'm not entirely sure what the AVMA does for us, either; we haven't really had anyone explain it to us. (at least that I can remember). As far as SCAVMA ... to be honest, the main (okay - really the only) reason I joined was because members get to rent junior surgery packs for $30/semester. Otherwise it's $300.

 

[Bill59]

The main practical reason to be an AVMA member is PLIT, if you need that. Otherwise it's the main organization to promote the profession and advocating on our behalf.

Personally, I have grave concerns about recent accreditation decisions, I think they need to do a lot more to promote the profession to the public, and I disagree with their stances or lack of stances on some key animal welfare issues.

The sticker is nice though.

 

[SilverSpyderGT]

I am not a member of AVMA. There are other options for insurance at competitive prices, although as a laboratory animal veterinarian, malpractice and liability insurance are generally covered by my employer, so that's really not a factor in my decision. I would imagine the case for pathologists is similar. At the risk of sounding like I'm ranting (and I might be), here are some of the reasons I believe AVMA is not upholding their responsibility to protect American veterinarians:

1.) Global accreditation should not be associated with the AVMA as it currently is. If there is any hint that the accreditation process is being sponsored by a major corporation, then something is terribly wrong. It is not the job of the AVMA to ensure that veterinarians from across the world are "qualified" to practice easily in our country, especially when the job market for new grads in America is already quite competitive. Let other countries worry about bringing their vets "up" to our standards and re-assign the accreditation to an international entity; the PAVE and ECFVG are in place to determine competency in foreign grads' cases.

2.) "Nonprofit" spay/neuter clinics receive generous tax subsidies that are not available to general practitioners despite significant donations to these nonprofit facilities. They use their privileged tax status to undercut local veterinarians and then extend their services to include non-elective surgeries such as enucleations and fracture fixations. People flock to these facilities for cheap surgeries (I saw an ad for a $30 canine spay, raised to $40 if she is pregnant), and for-profit general practitioners cannot compete. The AVMA is doing nothing to protect the rights of private practitioners from 501c(3) organizations - if veterinary care is going to be government-subsidized, so be it (I, for one, do not want Obamavetcare), but let the same rules apply to all veterinarians.

3.) Equine laydentistry, human chiropractors practicing veterinary chiropractics without proper licensure, non-anesthetic small animal dentistry performed by groomers... all of these comprise practicing veterinary medicine without a license, and yet the AVMA does nothing to curb them.

In my opinion, AVMA needs to consider the wants and needs of their constituents more carefully before I consider re-joining their ranks.

My professional needs are better understood by VIN, ASLAP, AALAS, and, should I pass boards someday, ACLAM. I let my wallet do the talking.

 

[sumstorm]

3.) Equine laydentistry, human chiropractors practicing veterinary chiropractics without proper licensure, non-anesthetic small animal dentistry performed by groomers... all of these comprise practicing veterinary medicine without a license, and yet the AVMA does nothing to curb them.

Looking forward to hearing Bill's response to this.

My understanding is that in most places technically non-dvm's can perform vet procedures under the 'supervision' of DVMs.... that was brought up when a human dentist did procedures pro-bono on a rescue despite being in a city with vets that specialized in dentistry. I also have some mixed feelings on FA issues with this. I know a person who would happily have paid the $4k she handed to Tufts for treatment of rumen acidosis in a prize ewe to a local vet instead of taking a 4 hour drive for treatment; there were no vets to assist her. I know my folks (on a farm) do many of their own procedures because there isn't a local vet to perform the procedures. Now, I'm not saying I believe there is a genuine vet shortage because having 1-2 paying clients won't support a vet, but I think there is a gap between clients and services that allows service workers to step in (and I would relate that to infection; sometimes helpful, sometimes harmful) and I personally feel that gap is widened by the current agriculture industry where the clients of vets (family farmers) are competing on the market with industrial ag. Just my opionion, though.

I have mixed feelings on low cost vax and S/N clinics (and I think it should be limited to those services that promote public health/reduce tax payer costs). I think there needs to be greater regulation, including proof of need, but I wouldn't want every place across the country closed down since I lived in a parish where 80k pets/yr were gassed.

 

[twelvetigers]

My understanding is that in most places technically non-dvm's can perform vet procedures under the 'supervision' of DVMs.... that was brought up when a human dentist did procedures pro-bono on a rescue despite being in a city with vets that specialized in dentistry.

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may10/100515p.asp

This bill passed recently in my lovely home state. It only requires that the controlled substances used be purchased from a veterinarian with a valid VCP relationship... but the work (and administration of the drugs!) does not have to be supervised.

It's dumb. The AVMA tried to stop it (as did hundreds of OK vets) but of course it passed anyway, because damnit, vets charge too much for dental care.

 

[sumstorm]

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/may10/100515p.asp

This bill passed recently in my lovely home state. It only requires that the controlled substances used be purchased from a veterinarian with a valid VCP relationship... but the work (and administration of the drugs!) does not have to be supervised.

Yeah, at least one of the states I lived in defined 'supervision' by a vet as a vet could be reached via phone within 20 minutes.

 

[Bill59]

3.) Equine laydentistry, human chiropractors practicing veterinary chiropractics without proper licensure, non-anesthetic small animal dentistry performed by groomers... all of these comprise practicing veterinary medicine without a license, and yet the AVMA does nothing to curb them.

Looking forward to hearing Bill's response to this.

OK

I agree, all of those are veterinary medicine and should be only performed by licensed veterinarians.

As I mentioned above, I'm no fan of the AVMA but to their credit they have actually lobbied quite a bit against these practices. And lobby is all they can do because the AVMA doesn't have any legal authority to curb these. That's up to the states.

 

[sumstorm]

Out of curiosity, could the AVMA do an ad campaign similar to ASPCA?

Give images of the horror that can result by having something done by an unlicensed practitioner....with the sorrowful music, followed by the bright, clean images of loving vets happily working with patients and cheerful clients while providing information?

IE instead of an 'anti' puppy mill theme, have an anti layman's theme? I think that is having more of an impact of late for animal welfare/rights organizations than direct lobbying. It could inspire John Doe to want to be 'protected' from those evil laypersons and pressure his elected officials to take action to ban those activities.

I'm one who feels like the AVMA can be doing more and trying different tactics rather than sticking with the 'tried and true' methods that aren't working. If lobbying directly isn't working, move to what impacts the decision makers (the folks who can pull them out of office.) And hire a really good marketing agency to do it; the skills required to make folks seem terrible aren't the same skills that present reasonable arguments on capital hill.

I also think in some places there needs to be a move to directly impact vet service. I don't mean student loan relief, but rather making sure there are vets available in the area to provide regular care for the stock/pets in those areas. When I was in Aus there was a vet who was subsidized by the govt to move from remove location to remote location so that hiring him was a viable option rather than hiring a layman to come in (even though his services still cost more than a random layperson, it wasn't out of the ball park and it meant he was physically around.) I know folks who are happy to pay vets for services, but can not get any vets to come to their properties, and they aren't going to load up 100 head a goats for a vet visit 3 hours a way. I know the theory is that they should be willing to pay enough to make it attractive for a vet to locate themselves there....but I don't know of many vets that can survive on 1-2 clients, and the costs of moving between clients would be overwhelming for most vets. If that gap can be closed for 3-4 years, it could eliminate laypeople performing some of those duties in some regions (not all.) This model is also used in Thailand to provide treatment for domesticated elephants and livestock in remote villages; the travel time/cost is subsidized (along with specific vaccines the govt wants in place like anthrax) while the actual exams, treatments, etc costs are covered by the clients.

 

[HopefulAg]

Give images of the horror that can result by having something done by an unlicensed practitioner....with the sorrowful music, followed by the bright, clean images of loving vets happily working with patients and cheerful clients while providing information?

IE instead of an 'anti' puppy mill theme, have an anti layman's theme? I think that is having more of an impact of late for animal welfare/rights organizations than direct lobbying. It could inspire John Doe to want to be 'protected' from those evil laypersons and pressure his elected officials to take action to ban those activities.

I think that would backfire. Anti-puppy mill is an easy concept to grasp, because look at the poor suffering puppies who have to get euthanised due to an irresponsible breeder!

But show it as a veterinarian defending their realm of practice and well, we all know that vets are money hungry people profiting off the misery of animals right? So the commercial would likely be seen in the light of "wow these guys are trying to take MORE money from me? Not even letting someone else have a chance! Bastards"

 

[katryn]

I have similar feelings about AVMA. As far as I can tell, the only thing their good at is giving the field "moral and ethical guidelines" for how to do our jobs....that you don't have to be a member to access. Thankfully our state VMA here seems to be really good at stepping in to fill the gap on the local/state level.

 

[sumstorm]

I think that would backfire.

I think this is why hiring an excellent advertising firm is necessary. So it doesn't get presented as defending the right to charge (ie it can't be an openly political advertisement) but rather 'we the vets are sad that this tragedy is occuring to your pets and here is how you can prevent it.' Folks KNOW there are anesthetic and sedation risks because we as a profession tell them. So they think they are making the 'safe' decision to have their dogs teeth done by a groomer who doesn't have to use anesthesia, because there isn't an obligation of groomers to share the risks. We don't even have to point a finger at anyone. Just show the results of poor performance and how to prevent it (use a licenced vet.)

It isn't just folks worried about money that are making these decisions...its educated folks who only have half the information. I base that assessment on working with a diverse, well-educated, and very successful group (in the hundreds) of dog trainers who are making decisions based on their understanding of what is best with their animals, not on financial incentives...and they are making poor choices because they don't know the risks and when they do ask, their concerns and questions are glossed over with answers like 'I went to school for this' which isn't good enough. These are folks that are happy (and do offer) to book and pay for double appointments to make time for explanations, but are still told that 'this is just how we do it' rather than why for things like vaccines, ACTH stim tests, etc. In the same light, I just took a survey for professional dog trainers about whether or not they as trainers should be educating the public about nutrition, vaccines, health care, etc. Many feel they should be, but they don't (in my opinion) often have adequate education to do so (and/or are extremly biased by current marketing and media.)

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Bumpity bump, since I am again receiving letters from the demanding their hundred and something dollars to be a "member". 🙄🙄🙄🙄

Any newer students have an opinion?

 

[bunnity]

SCAVMA did give me an emergency loan when I needed to get a place after I broke up with my ex and was waiting for my student loans to come in. So I appreciate that a lot, and I'm sure if I was a conference-y person I would appreciate the travel reimbursement stuff. No real thoughts on AVMA yet.

Does SCAVMA differ from school to school?

 

[Ben and Me]

Does SCAVMA differ from school to school?

Yes, from what I can tell from on here and from talking to other students, Penn's chapter has one of the most generous conference-reimbursement plans.

 

[No Imagination]

At Miss State, SAVMA is complete garbage. They don't hold their own meetings, instead latch on to other groups. On top of that, if you do not go to enough meetings throughout the year, you are FINED (have to pay $$$ for every meeting you missed until you meet their magic number). It really pisses me off, because you have to be a member if you want to be a member of any of the umbrella organization, but making me pay $$ because I didn't want to go to a meeting (which tend to be the same speaker, year after year - so i don't really need to hear some bank tell me how utterly screwed I am... again).

Sorry, for the poor grammar, mind is currently fried.

 

[libster06]

I've had a pretty low opinion of SAVMA ever since I started vet school, when learned that we had to raise specific amounts of money each semster, with no initial funds to do it. I had honestly no idea that we'd have to do that, on top of all the other stuff that is expected of us.

Yea. It's a measly $500. But when even I don't have $500, that becomes a lot of money to scrounge up for an organization to use for some future, unknown purpose. I just don't see the benefit... nor do I see the benefit of the "points" system. Other than to get everyone to pitch in for something, the mandatory points are another lame, needless aspect of veterinary school. Not to mention, they're pretty chincy with the points. I worked a 5 hour spay day, on a Saturday, and got 1/2 of a point. We spayed/neutered 114 cats in that amount of time, so it's not as though we were really sitting around, twiddling our thumbs.

The school here pushes it and continuously makes a big to-do about it, but since I was turned off by it early on and have had little interest in the perks of membership (assuming there are any).

 

[katryn]

Yea. It's a measly $500. But when even I don't have $500, that becomes a lot of money to scrounge up for an organization to use for some future, unknown purpose.

Ouch. Glad UT's SCAVMA doesn't do that. We just have the stupid point system, but as far as I can tell the only benefit is one free year of AVMA membership after you graduate. Considering how useless the AVMA feels right now....definitely not worth it. The travel reimbursement thing can be kind of cool (they do a good job with that), but they also have school funded travel help so you aren't screwed if you don't belong to the club.

 

[scb44f]

Points? So you have to get so many points to remain a member? Here we have to work one football game concession stand (so like 5-7 hours out of your day depending on when they decide to close up shop) during your first year. Then you don't have to do it again, but you can if you want to... If you can't make a game for whatever reason, you can "pay" your way out, but I only know of a few people who did that because it was like $100 or something like that. Then we have to go to one meeting per semester and that's about it. The organization really pissed off my class because they "didn't tell us we had to work a football game", even though they actually did and I guess people weren't listening. They give door prizes at the meetings, and the travel reimbursement thing is cool so I still go. Their last meeting topic was actually really interesting (personal safety techniques and how they apply to veterinarians, with personal stories from our associate dean who kind of scared us sh*tless...).

 

[katryn]

Points? So you have to get so many points to remain a member?

For UT at least:
You get points for attending lunch and dinner meetings, and working SCAVMA events. If you have a certain number of points when you graduate you are considered "in good standing", and you get one free year of AVMA membership. It's not terrible, but a lot of our lunch meetings are not worth going to because they have trouble finding clinicians who will talk about cases and such, so they end up being gossip sessions.

 

[bunnity]

Oh wow. I am really grateful for Penn's SCAVMA now. All we have to do is pay $35 at the beginning of the year, which lets you join any other club for free. They sponsor a ton of talks and activities (which aren't really my thing but oh well), have liability insurance for the summer (free), and advocate on our behalf to the school as needed.

 

[Ben and Me]

Oh wow. I am really grateful for Penn's SCAVMA now. All we have to do is pay $35 at the beginning of the year, which lets you join any other club for free. They sponsor a ton of talks and activities (which aren't really my thing but oh well), have liability insurance for the summer (free), and advocate on our behalf to the school as needed.

Actually, PLIT coverage is $10/year (total -- not for each externship), so basically nothing, but otherwise, I agree 100%.

 

[libster06]

.....how is it that we have to do all this "SAVMA" bullsh*t and it's not even a nationwide thing for all the vet schools???

 

[scb44f]

In reading the "how much do you guys spend on pet food" thread in the pre-vet forum, I saw that Penn's Hills program is free. For the schools that have the Hills program, is it free for you guys? At Mizzou, we get it at a greatly reduced price, but what we pay (not sure what %, but I assume all of it if it's free for you guys) goes to SCAVMA.

 

[squeegee]

In reading the "how much do you guys spend on pet food" thread in the pre-vet forum, I saw that Penn's Hills program is free. For the schools that have the Hills program, is it free for you guys? At Mizzou, we get it at a greatly reduced price, but what we pay (not sure what %, but I assume all of it if it's free for you guys) goes to SCAVMA.

It's the same here, with the proceeds from the sales going back to SCAVMA. First 20# free, up to 40# discounted per month; prescription diets not free (just super discounted) even if you're under 20#. Also applies for residents/interns/faculty, although I don't think the food is free.

 

[scb44f]

It's the same here, with the proceeds from the sales going back to SCAVMA. First 20# free, up to 40# discounted per month; prescription diets not free (just super discounted) even if you're under 20#. Also applies for residents/interns/faculty, although I don't think the food is free.

Interesting. None of it's free here. Makes me wonder how much they make off of it...

 

[Lissarae06]

For Hills: We get a 17lb bag of dog food or 9lb of cat food free, after that it is discounted. Since they started online ordering (they just started at Ok State), we get an even better discount (not sure why).
For Purina: We get a huge bag of food. It's free no matter what type. I get a $90 bag every month (prescription diet).

 

[elefante7]

If you get Hills food free, you probably don't have anything other than Hills to choose from. That is generally the deal they make with vet schools. Here, in order to put the brands on an equal playing field (I realize it is not a perfect system) they charge a small but equal amount for every brand. All proceeds go to our SCAVMA. While I'm sure there could be improvements, I am generally happy with the SCAVMA here.

 

[david594]

At Ohio State we get a limited quantity of Hills free each month, with additional available at a discount.

We also can gets free food from Purina which is shipped directly to our homes.

 

[dyachei]

UT had free Hill's (and more for a small fee) and free Purina (same deal).

 

[Minnerbelle]

Question. What options do you have for malpractice insurance or board complaint representation if you can't get PLIT because you're not an AVMA member? Are they significantly more expensive? As in, does the AVMA membership dues make up for that? I think at this point that's the only real perk I can think of that I'm really interested in.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Question. What options do you have for malpractice insurance or board complaint representation if you can't get PLIT because you're not an AVMA member? Are they significantly more expensive? As in, does the AVMA membership dues make up for that? I think at this point that's the only real perk I can think of that I'm really interested in.

That's a good question. I really don't know. My malpractice insurance is paid for by my institution because I am an AVMA member - the AVMA doesn't actually pay it....or maybe they reimburse the school, I don't know. I do not have the PLIT medical insurance - just the automatic malpractice. I would love to be able to pay my own if it wasn't much more $$$.

 

[Bill59]

Not sure if it's the case for your institution, but a lot of universities are self-insured. The school sets aside funds to pay for any claims and have their own lawyers for defense.

For private practice, most of the large carriers -- State Farm, Allied, Fireman's Fund, Zurich -- have professional liability. AVMA's PLIT is through Zurich I think. And any independent agent, who works with multiple carriers, can get this as well. If you're a practice owner, it's cheapest to bundle your professional liability and license defense with all your other insurance, such as business and workman's comp.

 

[that redhead]

1.) Global accreditation should not be associated with the AVMA as it currently is. If there is any hint that the accreditation process is being sponsored by a major corporation, then something is terribly wrong. It is not the job of the AVMA to ensure that veterinarians from across the world are "qualified" to practice easily in our country, especially when the job market for new grads in America is already quite competitive. Let other countries worry about bringing their vets "up" to our standards and re-assign the accreditation to an international entity; the PAVE and ECFVG are in place to determine competency in foreign grads' cases.

As a newer student, this is one of my own biggest concerns. How am I supposed to get a job when I'm out when so many new schools are being accredited and class sizes are being rather drastically increased (relative to the previous class size) across the board? I admittedly know pretty little about AVMA overall, something I hope to change as I progress through school and get closer to being out in the real world, but this sticks out a lot to me. Plus, as mentioned, it seems to do very little for the non-practioner sides of vet med.

 

[breenie]

Interesting. None of it's free here. Makes me wonder how much they make off of it...

Scb44f, the food is donated to SCAVMA and then they sell it at reduced cost. So yes. All the monies.

I have minor involvement in SCAVMA here... I'm not sure it's worth the melodrama for what they provide, but, whatever. I received a presentation on "what the AVMA does for you" earlier this year and don't really remember exactly what it does for me.

 

[cayvet]

As a newer student, this is one of my own biggest concerns. How am I supposed to get a job when I'm out when so many new schools are being accredited and class sizes are being rather drastically increased (relative to the previous class size) across the board? I admittedly know pretty little about AVMA overall, something I hope to change as I progress through school and get closer to being out in the real world, but this sticks out a lot to me. Plus, as mentioned, it seems to do very little for the non-practioner sides of vet med.

The AVMA Council on Education (COE) is designated by the US Dept of Education as the accrediting body for veterinary medicine. Decisions on accreditation made by the COE are not reviewable and cannot be changed by the AVMA Board of Directors. US schools have been increasing enrollments to gain more non-resident students and therefore an increased income stream. Similarly, European schools want COE accreditation so they can attract more US students who pay full tuition in cash. They have their own accreditation system for the schools in Europe, which may be as rigorous as the AVMA process is.😎

 

[VET 2008]

They told us that vet med was growing and that there was a need for vets esp those rural vets, pathologists (will be finishing my residency this year and there are NO jobs in sight), biomedical research (come on, you need a f***ing PhD as well. Why or why would a person spend $150,000 to be "better educated" so they can conduct biomedical research?), lab animal vets etc.

We got screwed...

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

They told us that vet med was growing and that there was a need for vets esp those rural vets, pathologists (will be finishing my residency this year and there are NO jobs in sight), biomedical research (come on, you need a f***ing PhD as well. Why or why would a person spend $150,000 to be "better educated" so they can conduct biomedical research?), lab animal vets etc.

We got screwed...

👍 Definitely. I'm not sure where they came up with this supposed huge demand for vets in research and research oriented specialties like pathology and lab animal. They can hire a normal PhD for half the price of a DVM/PhD, who likely isn't nearly as familiar with the intricacies of the research as the PhD is anyway.

 

[JosephKnechtDVM]

Amen,

It amazes me that these economic geniuses who have advocated this DVM/Phd route are not reading the employment ads in Nature or Science. However, the 1999 KPMG MegaStudy made mention of the fact that the DVM may not be perceived as adding any value to positions in industries that have only very limited connection to animal medicine like post harvest/post slaughter food safety in food companies, biotechnology and environmental health. I only see jobs for food safety for DVMs with FSIS. Big food manufacturing companies are looking for food scientists/technologists who know HACCP and how to make the product.