Debate over thrombolytics for acute ischemic stroke

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I think we "lost" because it does work.
"Work"

No one ever really bothered to re-test NINDS, and – why would they? Genentech stopped sponsoring investigators and supplying drugs to new trials that might diminish the effect size. It probably helps more often than it hurts, but not to the extent where I'd use the pharma-approved AHA propaganda.

Those trials from decades ago aren't generalizable to modern practice, either; we're enrolling different (read: milder) strokes, in general, and we're including comorbidities excluded from those trials and kept on as relative contraindications for years. That said, once you shake out the LVO from those old trials and send them to EVT, yeah, perhaps then you can build back some more of the benefit – small vessels, small territories, reasonable collateral circulation/oxygen diffusion. Too bad we'll never really know.

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That what I meant by works "a little bit" and why I don't use the AHA diagram to explain benefit. Leaves out the 20% in the original trial who got better on placebo and makes the majority of patients who get no benefit so translucent that most patients look right past them and just look at the pretty green guys who get to dance at their daughter's wedding. Most of those guys would have gotten to dance anyway.

I don't think anyone has tried to extract the LVO crowd from the old trials but I've often wondered the reverse. Maybe the tiny marginal benefits we think we saw were in the LVOs with salvage of some watershed areas that left you still able to at least brush your own teeth. Send all the LVO's to EVT now and maybe what's left gets no benefit. We'll probably never know

Unfortunately there is a lot of things in medicine that fall into the "Too bad we'll never really know category"
 
At least once a month I go to a stroke alert where I tell neuro, "I'm not sure what this is yet but its not a stroke." They usually agree and I'm usually right. Especially true in places where medics initiate the alert in the field.
I’m not pretending medics don’t make bad calls, but the ED I work in has an absurdly low threshold for calling stroke alerts. This phenomena of overtriage is not unique to any one level of certification or practice environment.
 
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I’m not pretending medics don’t make bad calls, but the ED I work in has an absurdly low threshold for calling stroke alerts. This phenomena of overtriage is not unique to any one level of certification or practice environment.

The level for activation is trash tier. It's to the point where every tingly panic attack and bells palsy and 117 year old altered mental status is getting activated.
 
"Work"

No one ever really bothered to re-test NINDS, and – why would they? Genentech stopped sponsoring investigators and supplying drugs to new trials that might diminish the effect size. It probably helps more often than it hurts, but not to the extent where I'd use the pharma-approved AHA propaganda.

Those trials from decades ago aren't generalizable to modern practice, either; we're enrolling different (read: milder) strokes, in general, and we're including comorbidities excluded from those trials and kept on as relative contraindications for years. That said, once you shake out the LVO from those old trials and send them to EVT, yeah, perhaps then you can build back some more of the benefit – small vessels, small territories, reasonable collateral circulation/oxygen diffusion. Too bad we'll never really know.
We had NINDS-I which showed no difference, NINDS-II which showed increased ICH, ECASS-I which showed benefit did not outweigh risk, ECASS - II showed no difference, ECASS III showed increased ICH, ATLANTIS A and B were both stopped early due to increased harm and no benefit respectively, MAST EU and ITALY both showed increased harm. Long story short, the findings of the NINDS trial have never been replicated, yet we treat that study as dogma... Why does no one question this???
 
Why does no one question this???
Our generation totally did – but who funds a bunch of skeptics? No one. Who sponsors CME and the guideline writers? Pharma. Game over.

Even just at face value – we've designed massive systems of care, including stroke ambulances, when the 95% CIs are enormous and stray down very close to unity. We don't know the actual effect size of this treatment – random imbalances between groups, unmeasured confounders in comorbidities and stroke syndromes, etc. – we could be barely squeaking by for all these years with little more than specious observational data gathered by those with a vested interest in confirming efficacy.

 
The level for activation is trash tier. It's to the point where every tingly panic attack and bells palsy and 117 year old altered mental status is getting activated.
I typed out a situation where I got called to the carpet for not calling a stroke alert, but it was so absurd that it borderlined on "identifiable medical info" so I deleted it.

The fact of the matter is alerts (stroke, stemi, trauma, sepsis) are so easy to draw datapoints and metrics from that they're an administrators wet dream. Nevermind the fact that the metrics are worthless, but it allows suits to compare themselves to suits at other ED's in some big circle jerk.

Door to balloon, door to neuro consult, door to TNK, door to whatever.. These were all useful timestamps for internal improvement at one point, but became bastardized by BSN, MSN, DNP, MPH, and PhD capstone projects/dissertations over the years that they're now essentially marketing tools and nothing more..
 
Idk if it's an academics thing or these stories are embellished, but as a neuro resident reading these feels like stepping into a completely different reality.

The vast majority of our stroke codes that get called aren't real strokes. Of the ones that are or could be, most of them don't get TNK anyway. Either the deficits aren't severe enough to outweigh bleeding risk, they're out of the intervention window, on blood thinners, or something else comes up. TNK can be great for specific situations, but it's often not the best next step. I don't see it given that often.
 
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Idk if it's an academics thing or these stories are embellished, but as a neuro resident reading these feels like stepping into a completely different reality.

The vast majority of our stroke codes that get called aren't real strokes. Of the ones that are or could be, most of them don't get TNK anyway. Either the deficits aren't severe enough to outweigh bleeding risk, they're out of the intervention window, or on blood thinners. TNK can be great for specific situations, but it's often not the best next step.
I don't know s*** about f*** when it comes to TNK and stroke management, but I know enough about community and academic medicine to say that it is definitely an academic thing.

In a good academic setting, a lot of thought goes into diagnosis, differentials and risks/benefits of treatments. Out in the community however, it's all about how quickly you can move on to the next case since that's how you get paid. So whatever the fastest route to getting out of the room and on to the next one is the route you're going to take.
 
Idk if it's an academics thing or these stories are embellished, but as a neuro resident reading these feels like stepping into a completely different reality.

The vast majority of our stroke codes that get called aren't real strokes. Of the ones that are or could be, most of them don't get TNK anyway. Either the deficits aren't severe enough to outweigh bleeding risk, they're out of the intervention window, on blood thinners, or something else comes up. TNK can be great for specific situations, but it's often not the best next step. I don't see it given that often.
You nailed it with your first phrase. Youre in academics.

Here's the reality. when you become an attending, ESPECIALLY, if you go into a community hospital, a bunch of factors occur at the same time to rapidly degrade the quality of medicine massively.
1. some people you will interact with were just not great evidence based practitioners even in residency and they went to the community exactly so they dont have to be bound by that so tightly. They're going to do what feels right to them rather than what the data actually suggests. As an extra annoyance, everyone will love them for some reason. That's just how the world works.
2. lots of physicians are 30+ years into practice and 30+ years since they ever seriously refreshed themselves on CME and practice patterns. So they're out there just practicing the way they thought was cutting edge in 1995 or 2000. You know how you are tempted to just phone it in on some of those modules/journal clubs/lectures in residency? That desire to just phone it in and just get the certificate rather than actually learning is 50-100x higher once you're out of residency. If you try to educate these people on being out of date they will let you know that theyve been doing it this way for three decades and they havent killed anyone yet (as a point of fact: yes they have, but its impossible for them to see how many individual bad outcomes were preventable, because no one has that ability to view their practice patterns objectively across time and without ego so all bad outcomes were unavoidable in their mind).
3. In the community lots of things happen just for customer service. Lots of people (especially specialists, but I'm not excluding EM) will happily ignore good medical practice because they feel that keeping the patient alive is the #1 priority, keeping them happy is #2, and actually doing whats *best* for them is #3 or lower. If the dumb thing the patient wants is not likely to kill them but is very likely to make them think you're a great doctor - you do it even if you know better.
4. You no longer have a layer of program leadership to be a heat shield for you against the never ending supply of nurse and MBA administrators who are constantly trying to find a way to quantify, gamify, or both, every element of the medical process. And them being fully and completely wrong about stuff can still make your life a living hell because they get paid to send you emails that you don't get paid to respond to (but you have to), so for them emailing you is a fulfilling experience but its a one-way street for sure. And if they don't like your answer or you ignore them, the annoyances will go from annoying emails, to uncomfortable in person talks, to slaps on the wrist, to formal discipline in a relatively steady manner. And again - often they will be fully incorrect, but since its their job to nitpick everything you do but they don't have the knowledge to understand immediately why you didn't do what they expected you to do, their constant emails will wear down your patience to not just do the thing that leads to the least emails even when it questionable or not indicated at all.
 
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