Debt pissing contest

[DermViser]

I thought it was only the French people who like talking about COGNAC. You too Americans!

I don't. But considering he's a hypocrite with obviously very liberal leanings, I highly doubt he's drinking a Bud Light like the rest of us heathens, vs. a Cognac or Bordeaux wine.

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[joker2400]

I don't. But considering he's a hypocrite with obviously very liberal leanings, I highly doubt he's drinking a Bud Light like the rest of us heathens, vs. a Cognac or Bordeaux wine.

 

[rodmichael82]

I want to know who the hell here is taking out 600k in loans? That's just ridiculous lol

 

[DermViser]

What do u recommend?

 

[joker2400]

What do u recommend?

Hard to go wrong with anything by Founders.

 

[Lysinee]

I want to know who the hell here is taking out 600k in loans? That's just ridiculous lol

Carryover from private college or grad school before matriculation.

 

[W19]

Carryover from private college or grad school before matriculation.

You better become a spine surgeon...Lol

 

[Lysinee]

You better become a spine surgeon...Lol

It might blow up to 700k with all the interest during the long residency.

 

[jqueb29]

$0.00

 

[jw3600]

they were forced into it by legislation. not to mention it's different when you're the one giving the money vs receiving...

I was thinking more along the lines of credit card companies and others. But considering how much Sallie Mae profits they do not seem to worry about that kind of stuff.

 

[Jabbed]

Never been happy to be on the left tail of the bell curve before..

 

[Dr Dazzle]

It might blow up to 700k with all the interest during the long residency.

Can't you just do IBR or PSLF, and it would be forgiven after 10 years?

 

[Catman21]

I believe the private med school in Texas is also partly subsidized by the state as well.

I believe this is true. Baylor last i checked is both the only private school (so far) in texas, and also as far as flat tuition goes, the cheapest. I cannot speak of other costs of attendance, however, with books and whatnot.

 

[Lysinee]

Can't you just do IBR or PSLF, and it would be forgiven after 10 years?

Things might change in the future for the PSLF program like the below post mentions. There is some risk involved.

It's probably better to live like a resident for a few years after residency and pay off the loans ASAP.

Personally I'm not banking on PSLF still being around in 10 years, but I have the advantage that I can will be doing IBR anyway until I finish residency in 2017, which is when the first group of people will be eligible for loan forgiveness through the program. I figure by the end of 2017 or 2018 we'll know if the program will be sticking around, disappear, or have any big changes.

Like you, I also plan to take advantage of the program if it sticks around. I think your plan sounds good, but the one thing I would consider is "hedging your bets" and considering paying more than the minimum monthly payment in the event PSLF disappears, so that you won't be stuck with a ton of interest + principle to pay. Making extra payments on the principle (you actually have to specify that when you make an extra payment, otherwise it just extends your next payment due-date) doesn't affect eligibility for forgiveness. If PSLF sticks around, it does mean you spent more than you had to. But then if it disappears, it saves you from ballooning interest/principle.

Two other things I'd like to point out:
1) You may know this already, but if you pursue PSLF, make sure that you consolidate your loans into the direct loan program. Older federal loans (which I assume you have since you're an attending) were usually FFELP and while most of those have been sold to the Dept of Ed, they are not direct loans, and only direct loans can be forgiven through PSLF. All you have to do is apply for a federal direct consolidation loan.
2) I wouldn't personally count on most hospitals being non-profits as a back-up--in many/perhaps most cases the physicians are contracted physicians' groups (for-profit). The academic hospital I trained at was non-profit, which meant the residents qualified for PSLF through their time there as they were paid by the hospital/health system. However, the physicians were employed by a physicians foundation and apparently not eligible, despite working at a non-profit hospital. Whoever signs your paycheck is the key.

 

[PL198]

Can't you just do IBR or PSLF, and it would be forgiven after 10 years?

You have to work at certain places for these to even be applicable, if they remain. I swear everyone just thinks all doctors can get their loans forgiven and they just completely ignore the actual cost of school. There are conditions.... Many non-profits contract their physicians out, IE you still can be not eligible for forgiveness even if you work at a non-profit.

 

[RangerBob]

You have to work at certain places for these to even be applicable, if they remain. I swear everyone just thinks all doctors can get their loans forgiven and they just completely ignore the actual cost of school. There are conditions.... Many non-profits contract their physicians out, IE you still can be not eligible for forgiveness even if you work at a non-profit.

Completely true, and people do seem to vastly overlook this--residents at most (but not all) programs are eligible for IBR because they are paid by the medical center, but many of the attendings are either private groups or all work for an umbrella physician's foundation for that medical center/hospital (usually for-profit)

It all comes down to who actually signs your paycheck.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

You have to work at certain places for these to even be applicable, if they remain. I swear everyone just thinks all doctors can get their loans forgiven and they just completely ignore the actual cost of school. There are conditions.... Many non-profits contract their physicians out, IE you still can be not eligible for forgiveness even if you work at a non-profit.

If you have a huge debt, it's probably worth it to plan and fully explore where you will do residency and where you find a job for the first 10 years and make sure you fit the criteria. I will have above average debt, and at this point will at least plan to pursue residency at a public hospital so those years are counted for repayment. But I don't have all the information.

 

[PL198]

If you have a huge debt, it's probably worth it to plan and fully explore where you will do residency and where you find a job for the first 10 years and make sure you fit the criteria. I will have above average debt, and at this point will at least plan to pursue residency at a public hospital so those years are counted for repayment. But I don't have all the information.

Then you're going to have to also plan where you become an attending. It's not that common to be an attending getting paid by a non-profit. If the deal was so sweet and easy to reach, everyone would take advantage of it, but that's not the case. These things are the worst thing possible psychologically for all these students who don't understand them. You get people with 400k in debt that are planning on being able to be bailed out by a unicorn.

 

[Dr Dazzle]

Then you're going to have to also plan where you become an attending. It's not that common to be an attending getting paid by a non-profit. If the deal was so sweet and easy to reach, everyone would take advantage of it, but that's not the case. These things are the worst thing possible psychologically for all these students who don't understand them. You get people with 400k in debt that are planning on being able to be bailed out by a unicorn.

True. That's exactly why there should be better resources available for students to learn what they are getting themselves into. That's why I'm here. I'll likely have 340k debt and am freaking out as to how ill deal with it.

 

[jeffk805dent]

True. That's exactly why there should be better resources available for students to learn what they are getting themselves into. That's why I'm here. I'll likely have 340k debt and am freaking out as to how ill deal with it.

I recommend talking to recent graduates and visiting the finance section on how to handle loans. I seriously doubt your school (and basically all others) will do anything to make you feel comfortable. My exit interview was basically stating the obvious.

People saying IBR/PSLF will end are not trying to be debbie downers but are being realistic, I am considering it too and keep in mind I have a higher loan balance than you with more limited income potential (with exceptions of course) but the fear of the government dropping the tax bomb that is so needed for the graduates keeps me hesistant on signing in. We dont want to see you struggle, this is America not Putin's Russia.

 

[fancymylotus]

 

[PL198]

True. That's exactly why there should be better resources available for students to learn what they are getting themselves into. That's why I'm here. I'll likely have 340k debt and am freaking out as to how ill deal with it.

it's not their job to educate you on finances. you shouldn't expect people to do it for you.... its the students job to learn what they are getting themselves into. you're here because you made a choice without thoroughly investigating. that's on no one besides you. 340k sucks but it's not going to be that difficult if you can actually control your expenses. if you want to get married and pop out some kids within 5 years of getting out of school, yeah that'll be pretty tough and that is what 99 % of people do that struggle financially due to student loans from what I've seen.

 

[DermViser]

it's not their job to educate you on finances. you shouldn't expect people to do it for you.... its the students job to learn what they are getting themselves into. you're here because you made a choice without thoroughly investigating. that's on no one besides you. 340k sucks but it's not going to be that difficult if you can actually control your expenses. if you want to get married and pop out some kids within 5 years of getting out of school, yeah that'll be pretty tough and that is what 99 % of people do that struggle financially due to student loans from what I've seen.

There are no good resources for 18-22 year olds that are at least geared toward premed and medical students.

 

[PL198]

There are no good resources for 18-22 year olds that are at least geared toward premed and medical students.

? what does that mean, a coloring book that represents debt? someone that is 18-22 is fully capable of reading anything that any adult can. concepts like compound interest and budgeting aren't difficult to figure out, you just have to actually want to learn about them

 

[Dr Dazzle]

? what does that mean, a coloring book that represents debt? someone that is 18-22 is fully capable of reading anything that any adult can. concepts like compound interest and budgeting aren't difficult to figure out, you just have to actually want to learn about them

You have any good resources?

 

[PL198]

wikipedia, the white coat investor, google.

 

[67552931811]

True. That's exactly why there should be better resources available for students to learn what they are getting themselves into. That's why I'm here. I'll likely have 340k debt and am freaking out as to how ill deal with it.

Live like a resident for a few years once you are an attending and demolish that *****. That's my plan since I have 0 faith in IBR/PAYE/PSLF being around once it's time for me to pay back uncle sam.

 

[Mmedran]

brah you better make bank or you're f*cked

People need to stop acting like moonlighting is a meaningful option.

I am in one of the most moonlight heavy fields, and in a program with a 2 yr research option where you have the opportunity to moonlight a bunch during the research years.

Moonlighting is a nice monthly bonus on your paycheck, at best. It's not an avenue for paying off your loans during residency

for #5, I hope you mean death when you are terminally ill due to old age, though I would be curious to know if the government would take your social security savings when they know you are trying to pull a fast one.

Lol brah! We'll see where the chips fall.

If moonlighting is a nice monthly bonus-- couldn't that be put towards the principle of your highest interest loan? I've seen moonlighting advertised at $100/hr for 12hr shift =$1200... Go in every Saturday =$48,000 extra per year (before taxes of course). Seems viable to me!

The death thing is a funny yet very real clause we all signed in our MPNs. And no the govt will not take your SS--your loans are completely forgiven. The idea is that your loved ones aren't stuck w the bill in the case of premature passing.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Lol brah! We'll see where the chips fall.

If moonlighting is a nice monthly bonus-- couldn't that be put towards the principle of your highest interest loan? I've seen moonlighting advertised at $100/hr for 12hr shift =$1200... Go in every Saturday =$48,000 extra per year (before taxes of course). Seems viable to me!

The death thing is a funny yet very real clause we all signed in our MPNs. And no the govt will not take your SS--your loans are completely forgiven. The idea is that your loved ones aren't stuck w the bill in the case of premature passing.

Moonlighting once a week, while clinically active, is not feasible in most fields. If you moonlihht for 12 hrs every Saturday...that would likely be all of your days off (since the rules are 1/7 off)

Most hospitals explicitly ban moonlighting during intern year. Most surgical fields ban moonlighting during any clinical month. The medicine program at my hospital only allows moonlighting for PGY2-3 and while you are on an outpatient/research rotation.

Like i and others said - for most it is a nice bonus on your paycheck. A premed saying that moonlighting every Saturday during residency seems feasible just shows how little you understand what residency is like.

 

[Mmedran]

Moonlighting once a week, while clinically active, is not feasible in most fields. If you moonlihht for 12 hrs every Saturday...that would likely be all of your days off (since the rules are 1/7 off)

Most hospitals explicitly ban moonlighting during intern year. Most surgical fields ban moonlighting during any clinical month. The medicine program at my hospital only allows moonlighting for PGY2-3 and while you are on an outpatient/research rotation.

Like i and others said - for most it is a nice bonus on your paycheck. A premed saying that moonlighting every Saturday during residency seems feasible just shows how little you understand what residency is like.

I like how you called me a pre-med. that's cute.
I know many programs ban moonlighting-- I know interns are not allowed bc licenses are needed: Notice I said "if possible" in my previous post...
And maybe you think moonlighting every Saturday is Not feasible bc you're a slacker... Or maybe you take SDN posts much too seriously considering I put loan forgiveness due to death as an option.
Feel free to simmer down now.

 

[user3]

it's not their job to educate you on finances. you shouldn't expect people to do it for you.... its the students job to learn what they are getting themselves into. you're here because you made a choice without thoroughly investigating. that's on no one besides you. 340k sucks but it's not going to be that difficult if you can actually control your expenses. if you want to get married and pop out some kids within 5 years of getting out of school, yeah that'll be pretty tough and that is what 99 % of people do that struggle financially due to student loans from what I've seen.

@sazerac is spot on. I think he makes a very legitimate argument.

Live like a resident for a few years once you are an attending and demolish that *****. That's my plan since I have 0 faith in IBR/PAYE/PSLF being around once it's time for me to pay back uncle sam.

well, get used to ignoring emails like this:

"DON'T WORRY!
You can reduce this monthly payment amount by finding the best repayment plan for your situation. Some of these plans are even based on your income and can lead to loan forgiveness!"

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I like how you called me a pre-med. that's cute.
I know many programs ban moonlighting-- I know interns are not allowed bc licenses are needed: Notice I said "if possible" in my previous post...
And maybe you think moonlighting every Saturday is Not feasible bc you're a slacker... Or maybe you take SDN posts much too seriously considering I put loan forgiveness due to death as an option.
Feel free to simmer down now.

I think moonlighting every Saturday is not feasible because im usually working. Feel free to continue spreading delusion and misinformation

 

[PL198]

Lol brah! We'll see where the chips fall.

If moonlighting is a nice monthly bonus-- couldn't that be put towards the principle of your highest interest loan? I've seen moonlighting advertised at $100/hr for 12hr shift =$1200... Go in every Saturday =$48,000 extra per year (before taxes of course). Seems viable to me!

The death thing is a funny yet very real clause we all signed in our MPNs. And no the govt will not take your SS--your loans are completely forgiven. The idea is that your loved ones aren't stuck w the bill in the case of premature passing.

You're going to work on saturdays. How do you think residents work 80 + hours a week. Do you really think they do 16 hour shifts M-F?

Honestly, the most logical way to pay off extremely high loan debt like 300k+ is just to pay what you can as a resident, and then live for 5 years like a resident as an attending and save/pay off everything you can. You can get it knocked off absolutely no problem unless you do something financially inadvisable like popping out a couple kids and getting married.

 

[PL198]

@sazerac is spot on. I think he makes a very legitimate argument.

well, get used to ignoring emails like this:

"DON'T WORRY!
You can reduce this monthly payment amount by finding the best repayment plan for your situation. Some of these plans are even based on your income and can lead to loan forgiveness!"

I don't understand. I never said it was unethical to use loan forgiveness programs. I said it was unethical to keep your loans till you die with no intention of paying them off.

 

[DermViser]

I like how you called me a pre-med. that's cute.
I know many programs ban moonlighting-- I know interns are not allowed bc licenses are needed: Notice I said "if possible" in my previous post...
And maybe you think moonlighting every Saturday is Not feasible bc you're a slacker...

Or moonlighting every Saturday is impossible bc you're actually WORKING that day as an intern genius.

 

[DermViser]

You're going to work on saturdays. How do you think residents work 80 + hours a week. Do you really think they do 16 hour shifts M-F?

You mean IM and Surgery residents don't get weekends off to moonlight?!?!?

 

[Mmedran]

I think moonlighting every Saturday is not feasible because im usually working. Feel free to continue spreading delusion and misinformation

I suggest taking your monthly "bonus" and investing in a Roth IRA or other investments...
That way, moonlighting to pay off some debt is no longer a "delusion".
Money management-- it's a real thing-- you should try it.

 

[Mmedran]

Or moonlighting every Saturday is impossible bc you're actually WORKING that day as an intern genius.

Oh Derm, if anyone could recognize sarcasm, I thought you would. Nice try though.

 

[PL198]

You mean IM and Surgery residents don't get weekends off to moonlight?!?!?

dude I'm telling you. medicine is a breeding ground for a lack of common sense due to there being like micro-cycles of natural selection with regards to memorizing, then when you talk about an issue like budgeting, which is 100 % common sense, it's like talking to a 6 yr old. the ability to rationalize practical means of employing those issues is truly almost 0

"well there are 168 hours in a week, if I moonlight the other 75 I'm not working, I can have my debt paid off by my third year of residency" - truly wouldn't be surprised if I saw this

 

[user3]

I don't understand. I never said it was unethical to use loan forgiveness programs. I said it was unethical to keep your loans till you die with no intention of paying them off.

my bad...

 

[PL198]

I suggest taking your monthly "bonus" and investing in a Roth IRA or other investments...
That way, moonlighting to pay off some debt is no longer a "delusion".
Money management-- it's a real thing-- you should try it.

or pay it to your loans because a 7 % guaranteed return on your money is the best investment you'll ever get in your life.

 

[Mmedran]

I don't understand. I never said it was unethical to use loan forgiveness programs. I said it was unethical to keep your loans till you die with no intention of paying them off.

Lenders impose time limits on pay off period depending on the repayment schedule.
Does no one read the MPN they sign?!

 

[PL198]

Lenders impose time limits on pay off period depending on the repayment schedule.
Does no one read the MPN they sign?!

I forgot that was in concrete and couldn't be changed by a court.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I suggest taking your monthly "bonus" and investing in a Roth IRA or other investments...
That way, moonlighting to pay off some debt is no longer a "delusion".
Money management-- it's a real thing-- you should try it.

I suggest you go back to wondering if you're getting into med school and quit lecturing people with a decade more experience than you about how to manage their life

 

[Dr Dazzle]

You're going to work on saturdays. How do you think residents work 80 + hours a week. Do you really think they do 16 hour shifts M-F?

Honestly, the most logical way to pay off extremely high loan debt like 300k+ is just to pay what you can as a resident, and then live for 5 years like a resident as an attending and save/pay off everything you can. You can get it knocked off absolutely no problem unless you do something financially inadvisable like popping out a couple kids and getting married.

Having a spouse who works could only help you make a bigger dent into your debt I would think. Also, I guess it also depends what specialty you do. You could be making 150k in family med or 300k+ in a specialty. That's why primary care doesn't seem realistic at all for those of us with 300k+

 

[DermViser]

I suggest you go back to wondering if you're getting into med school and quit lecturing people with a decade more experience than you about how to manage their life

To be fair, she's a first semester MS-1 (but still clueless on anything besides Anatomy and Biochemistry).

 

[DermViser]

Lol brah! We'll see where the chips fall.

If moonlighting is a nice monthly bonus-- couldn't that be put towards the principle of your highest interest loan? I've seen moonlighting advertised at $100/hr for 12hr shift =$1200... Go in every Saturday =$48,000 extra per year (before taxes of course). Seems viable to me!

The death thing is a funny yet very real clause we all signed in our MPNs. And no the govt will not take your SS--your loans are completely forgiven. The idea is that your loved ones aren't stuck w the bill in the case of premature passing.

Moonlighting is so you're not completely living hand to mouth. You won't make a dent on your loans.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

To be fair, she's a first semester MS-1 (but still clueless on anything besides Anatomy and Biochemistry).

I fail to see the difference

 

[Meh.meh]

or pay it to your loans because a 7 % guaranteed return on your money is the best investment you'll ever get in your life.

In my case at least, I think my grad plus are closer to 8%

 

[Silent Cool]

It makes me want to faint even writing this, but I will most likely be close to the 600k mark. How? Attending pharmacy school first for an additional 200k (tuition and living expenses combined in loans)..... Luckily my parents paid for 3 years of my undergrad before pharmacy school, so I only have one year of undergrad to pay for at ~16k. I have been accepted to one medical school, 52k/year tuition. If that is the only place I am accepted and I attend....... yup, I will be close to 600k I believe. At times it makes me consider just staying in pharmacy but MAN I have always wanted to be a doctor and pharmacy does not make me happy at all. I wish I could just get a mulligan on my pharmacy tuition.

Out of curiosity, to what school were you accepted and what field do you want to enter?