Decision for future doctoral application

[Neuroplast]

Hi everyone, it's been along time since I have written on these forums but I have been really busy these past couple of months. I am currently a Neurofeedback therapist for a newly concussion center treating rehabilitation and retraining of cognitive abilities to traumatic brain injured patients. This an on-call position which will eventually turn into a full time position. In addition, I have just landed a full time Psychometrist position for a clinical drug trial research lab. I will be applying for doctoral programs in clinical psych and want to specialize in clinical neuropsych later on down the road so my question is which of these two positions would look good for acceptance into doctoral programs? Both positions offer opportunities for research and publications (even a thesis) if I choose to. The neurofeedback position offers conducting a study for a master's thesis (first author), the drug trial lab may only be poster presentations and possibly collaborative publication, but not first author. I would eventually like to do both research and clinical work at hospitals/private pracitce and universities in the future. So which of these two gigs would benefit me the most in the long run and give a higher chance acceptance into reputable programs. Thanks guys.

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[PsyDr]

I'll give it to you as bluntly as possible:

Neuro feedback is basically thought of as quackery. Concussion is controversial as hell.

If psychology was a strip mall; neuro feedback would be the Halloween store.

Concussion is a VERY controversial field, with most research indicating that a single, uncomplicated mtbi has no long lasting effects. Of course the opposite side is people who say that a slight tap on the noggin can create effects worse than severe Alzheimer's. And there's financial motives for both sides.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

All of the above.

The science isn't there.

 

[Ollie123]

There is some legitimate neurofeedback research being done by respected research groups (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...nticated=false&deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=). These individuals have vastly superior technology and data than a typical clinic and would still be the first to tell you that THEIR methods are not yet strong enough to support clinical use.

In other words, unless you are at MUSC, Duke, Yale, UCLA or one of the handful of other institutions doing that work, I'd be very careful. Neurofeedback experience could hurt an application more than it helps at the more respectable programs. There is nothing wrong with doing good research on the topic, but jumping into it clinically as a "neurofeedback therapist" is likely something that will be perceived as sketchy and likely will not help you.

 

[psychrat]

All of the above.

The science isn't there.

Is neuro feedback different than biofeedback?

 

[PsyDr]

Neurofeedback is essentially eeg guided biofeedback.

 

[Neuroplast]

I do more than just neurofeeback at the center, I am part of a multidisciplinary team consisting of a neurologist, neuropsychologist, and physical therapist and I sometimes help our neuropsychologist with neuropsych assessment, he uses the MOCA and we talk sometimes in reviewing these. I also do ENG and Dynavision D2 for patients with peripheral vision problems. But the question hasn't really been answered, which leads me to believe that the Psychometrist position is more reputable and respected so the decision goes to this am I right?

 

[PsyDr]

I do more than just neurofeeback at the center, I am part of a multidisciplinary team consisting of a neurologist, neuropsychologist, and physical therapist and I sometimes help our neuropsychologist with neuropsych assessment, he uses the MOCA and we talk sometimes in reviewing these. I also do ENG and Dynavision D2 for patients with peripheral vision problems. But the question hasn't really been answered, which leads me to believe that the Psychometrist position is more reputable and respected so the decision goes to this am I right?

1) Yes. Admission committees want people they can train according to their philosophy. They do not want someone with a ton of bad habits/false information which they will have to correct in addition to training.

2) I'm not trying to be harsh, but you are really being misled by this group. There's no way for you to have known. But this is kinda like the iconic answering machine scene from Swingers... it keeps getting worse. The MOCA isn't often used by competent neuropsychologists. The way you phrased that makes it sound like this is a primary component of his/her assessment, which would be very strange. It doesn't have decent psychometrics and there are better options available. Vision therapy is also extremely controversial, with most thinking it is BS. Combined with the neurofeedback, it points to bad news. Throw in a reliance on brand names... Well that's also not how most reputable scientists work.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Agree 100% w. everything PSYDR wrote. The MOCA is flawed, but in some instances it is fine as a screener w. certain populations. Having the neuropsychologist give it though is a red flag, as there are far better options s/he has than the MOCA.

Vision therapy (like the D2 thing) and anything that "re-programs the brain" (a phrase common in the vision therapy world) are straight junk science. "Those" kind of neuropsychologists are not respected. I'm guessing they aren't fellowship trained or boarded bc these things are basic things.

You'd be best to find a psychometrician position elsewhere (if at all possible).

 

[Ollie123]

You do what you have to do to pay the bills, but its sounding more and more like these experiences are something to keep quiet about when applying to graduate school and arguably worse than having done nothing (or something only borderline relevant). The psychometrist position sounds significantly better. Based on what I'm hearing, I'm significantly doubtful that any first author publications out of the former site would be anything you'd want a potential graduate advisor to see. I'd much rather a student be 3rd author on a strong publication than 1st author on a garbage "case study" meant to sell some gizmo that doesn't actually do anything published in a pay-to-publish scam run out of a 3rd world country. Based on what you are saying...I highly suspect that's the sort of publishing opportunity they would provide. Look up the staff on NIH Reporter and google scholar and see what/where they have published.

It would be delicate, but I think the only way to pull off the former would be framing it as an "epiphany" that more rigorous science needs to be done and coming at it as though you are reformed. That's risky. I wouldn't recommend it if you have alternatives, which it sounds like you do.

 

[WisNeuro]

Yeah, I only pretty much give the MoCA as part of a bottom of the barrel assessment with inpatients who are really not doing well. Other than that, it's a rough screening instrument that should be given by someone else before they even refer that patient to me.

 

[Neuroplast]

@Therapist4Chnge: So what screening assessments would you recommend, specifically for TBI populations?

I am open to everyone's opinions on the neurofeedback thing. I get it, it was something that was offered to me and I didn't know any better at the time, however, I do feel some valued experience that I have gained from it (learning different parts of the brain to cognitive ability relationships) and seeing patients with mTBI to severe cases and being exposed to the neuroscience is something that I will take suggestions from here, to just share it as an experience but not mention it as a primary job thing towards adcoms and applications. I will focus on the Psychometrist position more and put more effort on this then since this is what I will try to enphasize more on my applications. I am about to start soon as a Psychometrist (March 7) and so what type of work does this entail? As per my interview I was told I will be conducting clinical interviews for incoming patients and use rating scales and the DSM. What else does this entail? And yes I do have to pay the bills one way or another.

 

[erg923]

I am about to start soon as a Psychometrist (March 7) and so what type of work does this entail? As per my interview I was told I will be conducting clinical interviews for incoming patients and use rating scales and the DSM. What else does this entail? And yes I do have to pay the bills one way or another.

Um, thats not a psychometrist position/job. What you described is a clinical job ("use rating scales and the DSM" I can only assume means you are making diagnosis?) that should only be done by someone appropriately trained to do so (and licensed). Please do not pay your bills and start off in this field with unethical practice. And it surely wont help you get in to graduate school.

I worked as a psychometist before my Ph.D and here is the cut and paste description from my CV. If this isn't what you're doing, then its not really a psychometrist job.


Psychometrist
Center for Neuropsychology and Cognitive Neuroscience
University of [inset state] Medical Center- Anytown, USA

"Conducted/Administered neuropsychological testing with adult and child patients referred by hospital and community physicians using a flexible battery/hypothesis testing approach. Duties also included scoring and norming of neuropsychological tests and communicating behavioral observations to supervisors."

 

[erg923]

I am open to everyone's opinions on the neurofeedback thing. I get it, it was something that was offered to me and I didn't know any better at the time, however, I do feel some valued experience that I have gained from it (learning different parts of the brain to cognitive ability relationships) and seeing patients with mTBI to severe cases and being exposed to the neuroscience is something that I will take suggestions from here

I recently completed a peer review for a workers comp managed care/health company on a provider doing neurofeedback with a patient. I am happy to send you a redacted copy. It was not pretty

 

[Neuroplast]

@erg923: Sure send it. Here is the original job ad posted last year for the Psychometrist position, if this is what you describe as not a Psychometrist job description then what is the position called?

http://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=477cb5102d5e0589&from=serp

 

[erg923]

@erg923: Sure send it. Here is the original job ad posted last year for the Psychometrist position, if this is what you describe as not a Psychometrist job description then what is the position called?

http://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=477cb5102d5e0589&from=serp

Well, it says you are a "Clinical Research Rater." Sounds much more appropriate, and couched in a research environment its much more understandable. You will still need appropriate training. And no, it not really a psychometrist job in the way most neuropsychologists think of psychometrists. The job description from my CV is really what most psychologists and neuropsychologists think of when they think "psychometrist."

 

[Neuroplast]

Well, it says you are a "Clinical Research Rater." Sounds much more appropriate, and couched in a research environment its much more understandable. You will still need appropriate training. And no, it not really a psychometrist job in the weay most neuropsychologists think of psychometrists. The job description from my CV is really how most psychologists and neuropsychologist think of when they think "psychometrist."

Gotcha, ok. I got thrown off there with the title though. So the difference is really administering the neuropsych tests as opposed to using rating scales basically correct?

 

[smalltownpsych]

The way I read it you might be administering and score tests and depending on what those are would determine how to describe the job. If you are scoring simple inventories, then no; but if you are administering and scoring WAIS'es then, yes. It also sounds like you will be conducting structured interviews. I don't know if there is a job description for that, but it will be good experience.