We are looking at having ED Dr do deep sedation with anesthesia induction agents (propofol, etomidate, etc). Are there many programs that do this and what sort of educational training do you receive to be credentialed?
DocWagner said:We do this as well, our primary conscious (deep) sedation technique is etomidate...works like a friggin charm...love it.
No special training except for attending-resident training.
VJV said:As an anesthesiologist and Wright State grad I ask why would you choose etomidate over propofol? Is is because the hospital P&T committee wont let you use propofol. I have never used etomidate for sedation.
I don't know about DocWagner, but at the last hospital I worked at they wouldn't let us use propofol. At the hospital I worked at before that, we could use it but the nurses weren't allowed to push it. They would draw it up and we would have to push it ourselves. I've used both and have gotten pretty comfortable with either.VJV said:As an anesthesiologist and Wright State grad I ask why would you choose etomidate over propofol? Is is because the hospital P&T committee wont let you use propofol. I have never used etomidate for sedation.
spyderdoc said:I too love to use etomidate. Our P&T comittee currently does not let us use propofol in the ED, but we are working on changing that...Hopefully soon.
I think etomidate is favorable, since it is easier to dose than propofol, just give 0.15mg/kg (usually 10mg) and the pt goes out like a light for a few minutes. Just long enough to do a procedure. Occasionally get myoclonic ticks, but that's about it....With propofol, it seems like you spend more time titrating the dose until the patient is out....Just my opinion though....
Mark
Yeah, that's the way I feel about those kinds of rules. I get around that by using fentanyl lollipops and calling it "analgesia" rather than "sedation." Works for me.docB said:For kids I use ketamine. I've used IM ketamine with good success but I don't anymore because the nursing protocols where I work won't let you do sedation on a pt without an IV. Whatever.
QuinnNSU said:(Apollyon, saw it with your old homeboy HS).
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QuinnNSU said:Have any of you tried Etomidate for your sedation for cardioversion?
I've only cardioverted two patients that went from stable -> unstable. First time we didn't use any sedation cause he was out, but a week or two ago I had this patient who was in WC-Tachy who was stable at home for 8 hours before he came into the ED. Within 20-30 minutes he started feeling woozy, but his BP was still 85-95. Anywho, tried the Etomidate, waited about a minute and then pulled the trigger. He most definately felt it. Wonderin' if I shoulda used something else.
BTW, he deteriorated into polymorphic VT... quite the scary case but it was a lot of fun. Man I love EM. (Apollyon, saw it with your old homeboy HS).
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QuinnNSU said:Have any of you tried Etomidate for your sedation for cardioversion? ...
... Anywho, tried the Etomidate, waited about a minute and then pulled the trigger. He most definately felt it. Wonderin' if I shoulda used something else.
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ERMudPhud said:I think you probably didn't use enough etomidate. I've used it plenty for cardioversion and never had anyone say they remembered the zap. Just don't rush, give them plenty, and make sure they are really out just like you would if you were relocating a hip or whaterver.
Why do you think he went into v-tach after the shock? Did you sync? I've seen people forget to hit sync in the rush to cardiovert and that has the potential for some bad dysrythmia.
As for the etomidate vs propofol question. I think at many institutions propofol wasn't readily available in the ER for a variety of reasons; cost, politics, storage issues. We have it now and I will probably start trying it. I think one other issue is the potential for pretty profound hypotension with propofol which is supposed to be much less of an issue with etomidate.
Not sure why. I talked to the attending cardiologist who admitted him and he thought he was in VT when he came in, which I agree with. He went into polymorphic VT after the first shock at 100 J, which was synchronized. Pretty scary. It took 3 shocks to get him back. I will probably scan the rhythm strip and post it here, it was a pretty cool case... especially since I did my lecture this year as a PGY2 on Tachydsyrhythmias.ERMudPhud said:Why do you think he went into v-tach after the shock? Did you sync? I've seen people forget to hit sync in the rush to cardiovert and that has the potential for some bad dysrythmia.