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First of all, how sure are you that those averages are accurate? I wouldn't put much stock in it since those scores are likely self-reported and the score of an individual student has a much higher correlation with how much effort the student put into Step I than their GPA/MCAT/what school they go to.

Secondly, it could be due to curriculum differences that don't prepare students for the boards as well or the proportion of students that got high scores on the MCAT due to luck and aren't amazing standardized test takers or the fact that the data isn't accurate.
 
Like Dr. Retractor stated, there are far too little data and the few we do have are highly unreliable.
 
Because step averages are self-reported and there is no central system for the information (like msar), then I'd be very wary of this kind of stuff.

Also, I've seen some lower tier schools that rock step 1. Fiu and ucf in Florida both averaged >238, which is insane for a couple of new state schools.
 
NYU likes to bill itself as a top school but it's really just upper echelon of the upper-middle tier. No surprises there.
 
Even if I hadn't applied, I'm familiar enough with their program. They have world-class residencies, though their med students clearly are not reaping those benefits. One med student didn't even know how to use a simple butterfly to draw labs. Another didn't know how to tie a suture. Granted, this doesn't translate into Step 1 scores, but even then, I've met more than a handful of students that weren't "with it" when it came to applying book knowledge. The majority of students knew what they were talking about, but this non-zero number that didn't was alarming, especially coming out of a school that likes to market itself as a top medical institution. In other words, there will always be incompetent med students. However, there shouldn't have been that many at NYU, if NYU is believed to be a top tier med school.

On the subject of MCATs, the new dean of admissions cares more about USNWR rankings than student quality. That doesn't mean that the teaching faculty is lacking, but it would explain how the Step 1 scores aren't up to snuff with other top institutions. The MCAT is only so good of a predictor of how well someone will do on Step 1.
 
Dermpire said:
Hello friends!!!
Click to expand...

Oh boy.

Dermpire said:
I've noticed that as I look at step 1 scores for many schools, there is a general trend between prestige/rank and Step 1 scores. Schools like Johns Hopkins, Baylor, Harvard, U Penn, etc tend to have excellent Step 1 scores (lets say around 240+/- 3). Some less prestigious schools with lower MCAT/GPAs tend to have lower Step 1 scores (lets say around 225 +/- 5). This makes sense as generally, higher ability students will do better on Step 1, and more often than not high ability students end up at top schools. Lot's of schools seem to follow this trend, but I've seen some data that shows some crazy outliers.

Based on past data UCSF and NYU seem to have very average Step 1 ~230 which for such highly ranked schools with high MCAT/GPAs simply seems weird (especially NYU with a 38 average). This data may be old, but lets assume there are at least few top schools that fall into this category.

Does anyone have any possible ideas or explanations why this happens?

Please give real answers to this real phenomenon and not 17 snarky variants of "Step 1 averages mean nothing!!!/Why do you care???"
Click to expand...

Anybody know where the dichotomy is located?
 
Lost in Translation said:
Even if I hadn't applied, I'm familiar enough with their program. They have world-class residencies, though their med students clearly are not reaping those benefits. One med student didn't even know how to use a simple butterfly to draw labs. Another didn't know how to tie a suture. Granted, this doesn't translate into Step 1 scores, but even then, I've met more than a handful of students that weren't "with it" when it came to applying book knowledge. The majority of students knew what they were talking about, but this non-zero number that didn't was alarming, especially coming out of a school that likes to market itself as a top medical institution. In other words, there will always be incompetent med students. However, there shouldn't have been that many at NYU, if NYU is believed to be a top tier med school.

On the subject of MCATs, the new dean of admissions cares more about USNWR rankings than student quality. That doesn't mean that the teaching faculty is lacking, but it would explain how the Step 1 scores aren't up to snuff with other top institutions. The MCAT is only so good of a predictor of how well someone will do on Step 1.
Click to expand...

But..but... Manhattan!
 
Lost in Translation said:
Even if I hadn't applied, I'm familiar enough with their program. They have world-class residencies, though their med students clearly are not reaping those benefits. One med student didn't even know how to use a simple butterfly to draw labs. Another didn't know how to tie a suture. Granted, this doesn't translate into Step 1 scores, but even then, I've met more than a handful of students that weren't "with it" when it came to applying book knowledge. The majority of students knew what they were talking about, but this non-zero number that didn't was alarming, especially coming out of a school that likes to market itself as a top medical institution. In other words, there will always be incompetent med students. However, there shouldn't have been that many at NYU, if NYU is believed to be a top tier med school.

On the subject of MCATs, the new dean of admissions cares more about USNWR rankings than student quality. That doesn't mean that the teaching faculty is lacking, but it would explain how the Step 1 scores aren't up to snuff with other top institutions. The MCAT is only so good of a predictor of how well someone will do on Step 1.
Click to expand...

What do you do now that gives you such insight into their students?
 
So I am actually of the opinion that the school does matter. Less so the actual name of the school but rather how they set up their curriculum. We do the 1.5 year preclinical and take Step 1 after we finish a year of rotations. I think this is one of the reasons we do slightly better on Step as compared to other more traditional schools. Having that extra year of clinics I think helped build context for a lot of concepts that may have been confusing during preclinical. According to my administration, in the years after we switched to our current curriculum, the average step scores jumped 20 points.
 
What I have heard on this is that at some of the top schools they place students with average scores into residency via the school’s reputation, so top notch USMLE scores are not as important. Those schools may give their students a smaller block of time off to study and the students may be unwilling to drop their research and other endeavors just to make sure they get the highest possible board score. On the other hand, students at good, but not elite, med schools are capable of getting high scores and know they need to throw all of their energy into getting them.


For whoever asks – no, I have not conducted an elaborate data analysis on this. It is just a hypothesis that I heard from a medical student.
 
Lost in Translation said:
Even if I hadn't applied, I'm familiar enough with their program. They have world-class residencies, though their med students clearly are not reaping those benefits. One med student didn't even know how to use a simple butterfly to draw labs. Another didn't know how to tie a suture. Granted, this doesn't translate into Step 1 scores, but even then, I've met more than a handful of students that weren't "with it" when it came to applying book knowledge. The majority of students knew what they were talking about, but this non-zero number that didn't was alarming, especially coming out of a school that likes to market itself as a top medical institution. In other words, there will always be incompetent med students. However, there shouldn't have been that many at NYU, if NYU is believed to be a top tier med school.

On the subject of MCATs, the new dean of admissions cares more about USNWR rankings than student quality. That doesn't mean that the teaching faculty is lacking, but it would explain how the Step 1 scores aren't up to snuff with other top institutions. The MCAT is only so good of a predictor of how well someone will do on Step 1.
Click to expand...

Your determination about their medical education comes from their ability to do basic tasks that don't require a medical education?
 
Dermpire said:
Interesting, what school do you go to? I can see it being helpful to take Step 1 after 2.5 years especially having done a year of rotations, but I could also see a challenge arise from making time to study during rotations.
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If it's anything like my school (same curriculum structure) they get protected study time after finishing third year. Usually 1-2 months
 
Dermpire said:
Interesting, what school do you go to? I can see it being helpful to take Step 1 after 2.5 years especially having done a year of rotations, but I could also see a challenge arise from making time to study during rotations.
Click to expand...
Penn. The test is actually self scheduled. We have a window of about 5 months to take it whenever we'd like. Most take Jan-Feb off from subis/electives and give themselves 6-7 weeks of dedicated time.
 
Psai said:
Your determination about their medical education comes from their ability to do basic tasks that don't require a medical education?
Click to expand...

Your rebuttal of my criticism hinges on the fact that you only read the first 4 sentences of my post?
 
Reckoner said:
🤣
Please, enlighten us on the number of students who can't tie sutures that a school is allowed before it becomes officially (gasp) middle tier
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Okay, how about the inability to explain the difference between DKA and AKA when asked about it by an attending while on rotations?
 
Lost in Translation said:
Okay, how about the inability to explain the difference between DKA and AKA when asked about it by an attending while on rotations?
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So someone got pimped and didn't have an answer off the top of their head. Okay. It happens. You clearly work at NYU or Bellevue and saw it happen to an NYU student. Spend some time at Presbyterian and you'll see it happen to Cornell students. Keep heading north and you'll realize Yalies forget things too. Your very limited experience watching a few students at one hospital is a poor way to judge the quality of the education at that institution.

According to an MS3 there, NYU's step 1 average is 242 by the way. Her deans gave them that number before their study period
 
Isn't NYU's ranking going to fall 20 places once the Sandy funds run out?
 
I don't know why people like to hate on NYU for its "focus on ranking".

First of all, I don't even think they focus on ranking more than other schools. Sure they mention it during interview day for like 5 seconds but that's nothing. And for most of you applicants to NYU, don't tell me that NYU's ranking didn't affect your decision to apply to NYU. Would you have applied to NYU had it been ranked #87? I bet for many people the answer would be no. Also, let's just be real here. Most (if not all) of NYU's peer schools also focus on ranking at some level because it affects the yield of the school. Why don't people talk about how Stanford Medical School shot up from around #11-15 (somewhere in that range) to #2 recently. Sure, a school might not care if it goes from #12 to #13 but I bet it would care if it went from #12 to #38 in one year.

Secondly, people think NYU focuses on ranking because they allegedly take higher-stat applicants. But if you look at the actual data, NYU's MCAT/GPA are in line with all the schools around it (e.g., Cornell, Vandy, UCLA, etc.). They are not substantially higher (if at all higher). Thus, in the USNWR formula, their ranking doesn't really get much of a "boost" from stats relative to its peer schools.

Finally, even if you believe that 1) NYU focuses on its ranking more than other schools and 2) NYU accepts people with higher stats, why is that necessarily a bad thing? Many people on SDN think "holistic" == lower stats and assume that people with higher stats have worse ECs/LoRs/Essays. I would argue that people with high stats are more likely to have better ECs/LoRs/Essays because the traits that tend to be associated with high stats (e.g., Drive and Ambition) are also likely to be associated with having better ECs/LoRs. Bottom line, having high stats does not equal worse ECs/LoRs/Essays.

And for full disclosure, I have absolutely no association with NYU.

tl;dr: NYU is unfairly accused of being "focused on ranking" but even if it does, that does not diminish the quality of the school.
 
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Outside of SDN, people I know hold NYU in pretty high regard. Granted I am in the Northeastern US, but I tend to think of that as just an SDN thing really...
 
justadream said:
I don't know why people like to hate on NYU for its "focus on ranking".

First of all, I don't even think they focus on ranking more than other schools. Sure they mention it during interview day for like 5 seconds but that's nothing. And for most of you applicants to NYU, don't tell me that NYU's ranking didn't affect your decision to apply to NYU. Would you have applied to NYU had it been ranked #87? I bet for many people the answer would be no. Also, let's just be real here. Most (if not all) of NYU's peer schools also focus on ranking at some level because it affects the yield of the school. Why don't people talk about how Stanford Medical School shot up from around #11-15 (somewhere in that range) to #2 recently. Sure, a school might not care if it goes from #12 to #13 but I bet it would care if it went from #12 to #38 in one year.

Secondly, people think NYU focuses on ranking because they allegedly take higher-stat applicants. But if you look at the actual data, NYU's MCAT/GPA are in line with all the schools around it (e.g., Cornell, Vandy, UCLA, etc.). They are not substantially higher (if at all higher). Thus, in the USNWR formula, their ranking doesn't really get much of a "boost" from stats relative to its peer schools.

Finally, even if you believe that 1) NYU focuses on its ranking more than other schools and 2) NYU accepts people with higher stats, why is that necessarily a bad thing? Many people on SDN think "holistic" == lower stats and assume that people with higher stats have worse ECs/LoRs/Essays. I would argue that people with high stats are more likely to have better ECs/LoRs/Essays because the traits that tend to be associated with high stats (e.g., Drive and Ambition) are also likely to be associated with having better ECs/LoRs. Bottom line, having high stats does not equal worse ECs/LoRs/Essays.

And for full disclosure, I have absolutely no association with NYU.

tl;dr: NYU is unfairly accused of being "focused on ranking" but even if it does, that does not diminish the quality of the school.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with you that being focused on ranking is not necessarily a bad thing. However, my main concern is that the ranking is artificially inflated by Sandy money. They got 1.13 billion (see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/30/nyregion/30nyu.html) for repairs. In addition, they themselves even cite increase in "research funding" as the reason their ranking jumped see here: http://nyulangone.org/press-release...d-reports-2016-best-graduate-schools-rankings

I'm not trying to hate on NYU. In fact, I've been doing a lot of research on this because I was accepted here and would love to end up in NYC. However, especially when you're choosing between NYU and an equally/better ranked institution, the fact that the ranking might drop after this year is a legitimate concern. Of course there's no way to predict HOW much it'll drop, and maybe it wont, but to me it seems like a much riskier choice than other peer institutions that have consistently been in the top 10/15

And yes I know rankings aren't everything but this whole discussion has been about rankings
 
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