Dentist Income

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WSU_PharmD

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Dental clinic closes shortly after opening when dentist quits.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01012108.htm

The Volusia County Health Department's Thornton said he's talked to three potential dentists who have told him the salary offered -- $100,000 to $130,000 -- is "laughable."

"If you have your license and you're just out of school, you can make twice that," Thornton said.

Who knew dentists made over 200K right out of school.
 
WSU_PharmD said:
Dental clinic closes shortly after opening when dentist quits.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01012108.htm

The Volusia County Health Department's Thornton said he's talked to three potential dentists who have told him the salary offered -- $100,000 to $130,000 -- is "laughable."

"If you have your license and you're just out of school, you can make twice that," Thornton said.

Who knew dentists made over 200K right out of school.
Click to expand...

Woohoo!
 
why do you think dentists like to seek associates? they want the extra income difference in their pockets. 80k+/yr of someone being their bitch. 120k really is laughable, and it's reserved for those who won't take the initiative to open a clinic. or women who have other things (starting a family) on their minds.
 
There may be more going on there then meets to eye.

A county public health clinic not "sexy dentistry" to a dentist fresh out of school and has no allure. First, here just isn't much crown & bridge, implant, or cosmetic work in a county public health clinics. Second, a public health clinic is often viewed as a career dead end. Thirdly, public health patients are often viewed as difficult to work with due to health issues, poverty, mental and social issues. Lastly, county public health clinics are often limited to children only and not everyone likes to work exclusively with kids.

Some folks would rather make a statement like, "If you have your license and you're just out of school, you can make twice that," to just say no thanks that just isn't for me.
 
I've actually made a website for my class (Nova 08) that has open dental jobs for graduates - [B]http://www.dentalgrad.com[/B] - The best I have seen is 250k compensation with 2 practice transition. Average is about 150K plus extras

Chris
 
Public health dentistry is great if you are in the right situation. I'm assuming this position is your avg. clinic position of 4 days/week, 2-4 weeks off per year (paid), holidays off and paid. This is a great job because you don't have the headaches of running an office and have no real responsiblity.

I try to talk all of my friends out of leaving these types of positions. Sure you can make more owning your own office but there isn't a guarantee plus you have business loans and staff to manage.
 
xxsuzuki1000xx said:
I've actually made a website for my class (Nova 08) that has open dental jobs for graduates - [B]http://www.dentalgrad.com[/B] - The best I have seen is 250k compensation with 2 practice transition. Average is about 150K plus extras

Chris
Click to expand...

This site could explode if you fancy up the format a bit and make it searchable.
 
armorshell,

Thanks for the great feedback on the site! I'm going to definitely take that into consideration.

Chris
 
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dentstd said:
why do you think dentists like to seek associates? they want the extra income difference in their pockets. 80k+/yr of someone being their bitch. 120k really is laughable, and it's reserved for those who won't take the initiative to open a clinic. or women who have other things (starting a family) on their minds.
Click to expand...

But I still wouldn't sneeze at $120k as a new graduate. Eager dental students are probably drooling now, budgeting for $200k out of school, which is very misleading.
If you can get a base-salary-guarantee associateship your first year out above $100k - $120k, then you've got it made. Having said that, I have absolutely no doubt that you can easily jump to $150k your second year and hit $200 - $250 by year 5, as a partner/owner.
 
xxsuzuki1000xx said:
I've actually made a website for my class (Nova 08) that has open dental jobs for graduates - http://www.dentalgrad.com - The best I have seen is 250k compensation with 2 practice transition. Average is about 150K plus extras

Chris
Click to expand...

Nice job. How can I/we contribute to this ?
 
Thanks so much for all the great comments about the site. I guess the best way to contribute is to help spread the word about dentalgrad.com to other graduating dental students. By doing so, this encourages dentists to post more positions that are favorable to new graduates.

Chris
 
Suzuki1000, nice clean site. A little advertising and you should be able to make a little coin.
 
small, thanks a lot for the compliments on the site. I took the advice from armorshell and made it searchable so its easier to find a great job. Overall, I'm glad that you guys like the site and please private message me when you land a great job on there!

Chris
 
I love reading dental students talk about how they can earn 120K the first year, then 250K in 5 years.... how do you know as you haven't worked a single day in the real world delivering dentistry to truly make a buck? Those earning 200-250K in the first 5 years are in the very small minority. Yes, they're out there but they're not the norm and usually require a good deal of hard work, talent, drive, and just being in the right circumstances. Be realistic about what the average dentist is doing out of school and live financially below your means for the first 5 years out of school. I tell you this not to knock you all down who think you're going to be god's gift to dentistry but to enlighten you as to how real world dentistry works and it's effect on your checkbook. I came out 4 years ago all stary eyed that I was going to be making the big bucks. I think part of it is that while you're in school your spirits can dip so low from trudging through D-school that you look to fictious clams of gold at the end of the rainbow as a motivational force to push through the hard times.
 
pietrodds said:
I love reading dental students talk about how they can earn 120K the first year, then 250K in 5 years.... how do you know as you haven't worked a single day in the real world delivering dentistry to truly make a buck? Those earning 200-250K in the first 5 years are in the very small minority. Yes, they're out there but they're not the norm and usually require a good deal of hard work, talent, drive, and just being in the right circumstances.
Click to expand...

I am going to assume that you are referring to my post. I wouldn't be so quick to make judgments on other people, whom you really don't know (professional background). I don't know how it was back in your days, but to even come near dental school nowadays, you are expected to express at the very minimum "a good deal of hard work, talent, drive".
I can understand if your experience out of school was different, but that's why most numbers are quoted in averages.

pietrodds said:
Be realistic about what the average dentist is doing out of school and live financially below your means for the first 5 years out of school.
Click to expand...

This is excellent advice.
 
WSU_PharmD said:
Dental clinic closes shortly after opening when dentist quits.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01012108.htm

The Volusia County Health Department's Thornton said he's talked to three potential dentists who have told him the salary offered -- $100,000 to $130,000 -- is "laughable."

"If you have your license and you're just out of school, you can make twice that," Thornton said.

Who knew dentists made over 200K right out of school.
Click to expand...

Following dental school I did an OMFS residency. I received a 41k stipend per year for 6 years. Not to mention I had for fork over nearly 115k for medical school. I'd say I do fairly well now, but my student loans and malpractice insurance are astronomical. lol
 
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WSU_PharmD said:
Dental clinic closes shortly after opening when dentist quits.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01012108.htm

The Volusia County Health Department's Thornton said he's talked to three potential dentists who have told him the salary offered -- $100,000 to $130,000 -- is "laughable."

"If you have your license and you're just out of school, you can make twice that," Thornton said.

Who knew dentists made over 200K right out of school.
Click to expand...


The weird thing about this is that I got in contact of the director (Thorton) outlined in the article, and it turns out he just recently retired from the position. The new director has yet to contact me back after I offered to post the job on the website.

Chris
 
pietrodds said:
I love reading dental students talk about how they can earn 120K the first year, then 250K in 5 years.... how do you know as you haven't worked a single day in the real world delivering dentistry to truly make a buck? Those earning 200-250K in the first 5 years are in the very small minority. Yes, they're out there but they're not the norm and usually require a good deal of hard work, talent, drive, and just being in the right circumstances. Be realistic about what the average dentist is doing out of school and live financially below your means for the first 5 years out of school. I tell you this not to knock you all down who think you're going to be god's gift to dentistry but to enlighten you as to how real world dentistry works and it's effect on your checkbook. I came out 4 years ago all stary eyed that I was going to be making the big bucks. I think part of it is that while you're in school your spirits can dip so low from trudging through D-school that you look to fictious clams of gold at the end of the rainbow as a motivational force to push through the hard times.
Click to expand...


I think the article is describing a childrens clinic...meaning the dentist is a Pediatric dentist. Don't know what Peds make, but I assume they can make more than General Dentists straight out of school.
 
Is this clinic still closed?
 
WSU_PharmD said:
Dental clinic closes shortly after opening when dentist quits.

http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/News/Headlines/frtHEAD01012108.htm

The Volusia County Health Department's Thornton said he's talked to three potential dentists who have told him the salary offered -- $100,000 to $130,000 -- is "laughable."

"If you have your license and you're just out of school, you can make twice that," Thornton said.

Who knew dentists made over 200K right out of school.
Click to expand...

i didn't have time to read all the posts but where have we gotten to in america where we laugh at $100,000-$130,000/yr at age 26 or so? the way the economy is going i wouldn't be so sure about the incomes getting higher and higher anyway. i haven't come to this site much lately but when i do i see like 50% of the threads talking about income or lifestyle in some way, shape, or form. whatever happened to going into dentistry because of DENTISTRY. sigh
 
vize said:
i didn't have time to read all the posts but where have we gotten to in america where we laugh at $100,000-$130,000/yr at age 26 or so? the way the economy is going i wouldn't be so sure about the incomes getting higher and higher anyway. i haven't come to this site much lately but when i do i see like 50% of the threads talking about income or lifestyle in some way, shape, or form. whatever happened to going into dentistry because of DENTISTRY. sigh
Click to expand...

Of course, a $300,000 debt makes a $130,000 salary look a lot less spiffy.
 
vize said:
i didn't have time to read all the posts but where have we gotten to in america where we laugh at $100,000-$130,000/yr at age 26 or so? the way the economy is going i wouldn't be so sure about the incomes getting higher and higher anyway. i haven't come to this site much lately but when i do i see like 50% of the threads talking about income or lifestyle in some way, shape, or form. whatever happened to going into dentistry because of DENTISTRY. sigh
Click to expand...

Well, since you have not read the whole thread, you would have no way of knowing that these salaries pertain to pediatric dentists working in community/high volume/undeserved areas.
Canididates for these positions are:
1. Typically 30+ years old
2. Expected to be compensated anywhere upward of $175,000
3. On average, $400,000 in debt by the time they are done with residency training and looking for jobs

So yeah, $100,000 ($75,000 post tax) is a joke. Care to do the math for the monthly payments on your $400,000 student loan ? Would $4,000/month be a safe bet ? $50,000 per year in loan re-payment alone !
 
The site the OP posted doesn't even work, but I'm sure if you have to pay back $400,000 in 8 years, making $100,000, then there's something you can do to have a deferment, forbearance, or consolidation. I don't recall ever being told I had to pay back my loans in 8 years either. Now that the clinic is closed they will know that they should have given the dentists more money.
 
vize said:
i didn't have time to read all the posts but where have we gotten to in america where we laugh at $100,000-$130,000/yr at age 26 or so? the way the economy is going i wouldn't be so sure about the incomes getting higher and higher anyway. i haven't come to this site much lately but when i do i see like 50% of the threads talking about income or lifestyle in some way, shape, or form. whatever happened to going into dentistry because of DENTISTRY. sigh
Click to expand...

It's not like dentists just cruised through undergrad and dental school. It's a hard, very expensive journey only few can complete, so I see no problem with expecting a good return.
 
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dontwakeme said:
It's not like dentists just cruised through undergrad and dental school. It's a hard, very expensive journey only few can complete, so I see no problem with expecting a good return.
Click to expand...

I agree. Approaching this as someone looking at paying out of state tuition in the fall I'm looking at approximately $2000 per month in loan payments over a 30 year repayment schedule. That's $24K right off the top. The clinic is paying for deferred income for 4 years, hard work and a large debt load.
 
marius said:
I agree. Approaching this as someone looking at paying out of state tuition in the fall I'm looking at approximately $2000 per month in loan payments over a 30 year repayment schedule. That's $24K right off the top. The clinic is paying for deferred income for 4 years, hard work and a large debt load.
Click to expand...

dude the 24k is not even right off the top. taxes come off the top. so it's actually more like 36k. not trying to bum you out.😳
 
makushin said:
dude the 24k is not even right off the top. taxes come off the top. so it's actually more like 36k. not trying to bum you out.😳
Click to expand...

True, it isn't pre-tax and the above the line interest deduction maxes out at $2,500 per year--although I hope that your assumption is off on my tax rate.
 
vize said:
The site the OP posted doesn't even work, but I'm sure if you have to pay back $400,000 in 8 years, making $100,000, then there's something you can do to have a deferment, forbearance, or consolidation. I don't recall ever being told I had to pay back my loans in 8 years either. Now that the clinic is closed they will know that they should have given the dentists more money.
Click to expand...

Your math is way off. That 4 grand a month is based on repaying the private loans in 25 years and the stafford loans in 10 years. I should know I just went through exit counseling and my monthly payments will be a little over 4 grand. The interest is NOT tax deductible unless I make less then 120k a year and even if I do the amount you can deduct phases out between something like 60k and 120k.
 
marius said:
True, it isn't pre-tax and the above the line interest deduction maxes out at $2,500 per year--although I hope that your assumption is off on my tax rate.
Click to expand...

you will not be able to write off any student loan interest if you're single and make over something like $70k. your tax rate will vary, but if you make what ADA says an average dentist makes, i think you can count on lobbing 1/3 off for the rackateers.
 
"I don't know how it was back in your days..."

First of all, I graduated in 2004, then did a GPR and have been practicing for 3 years so I have a pretty good idea of what's going on in the real world. I've gotta tell you that you guys have some pretty lofty goals especially compared to what people are actually making coming out. I see people talking about what the ADA posts as average salaries for dentists... this is average salary for ALL dentists which means they take all the guys making 2-3x's what a new grad makes, add it to the new grad salary, and then come up with an average. So...... if the average salary is 175K that means that there's a lot of older dentists making 2-300K and then some younger ones making 80-120K. That's pretty much what you can 'expect' coming out. The reality is that it's difficult to expect anything as most jobs pay based on production. In many cases, the amount you earn isn't limited by how hard or ambitious you are but rather how much work the owner is willing to shift your way. If you're in a health clinic then your are most likely getting paid a set salary and working like a dog at medical assistance rates. The first few years are tough as you have little job stability and huge school debt. If you're making more than 125K a year or two out than you are in the minority. Sock away as much as you possible can as it will provide you the ability to get into ownership faster and that is where all the benefits are to being in dentistry in terms of job stability, profitability, retirement funding, tax incentives, etc. Your setting yourself up for major disappointment if you think you're going to make 150K out of the gates in most cases. Virtually all new grads are ambitious and eager to make a living as you have to be to get through school so don't think that this is going to separate you from the pack. You'll also be surprised how reluctant people are to have some young,eager grad who looks like they're barely legal to drink to start cutting on their teeth and pay for it. Health clinics are nice because you can build up your speed and you don't have to worry about the pts asking the senior doc to do the work because they have no other options... and it provides you with a set salary and sometimes even some loan repayment if you can tolerate it for a few years. Do yourself a favor and be realistic and save as much as you can after you make your loan payments. Hold off on the BMW until the golden years!
 
QCkid said:
Your math is way off. That 4 grand a month is based on repaying the private loans in 25 years and the stafford loans in 10 years. I should know I just went through exit counseling and my monthly payments will be a little over 4 grand. The interest is NOT tax deductible unless I make less then 120k a year and even if I do the amount you can deduct phases out between something like 60k and 120k.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the response. Help me break this down, then-- I'm accepted to an out-of-state school and I know that my total expenditure will be >$290k. How is it actually possible to pay this thing off if I'm only making $90-$100k my first couple of years out? Do you pretty much have to rule out home ownership? What I'm reading makes the HPSP look like a fantastic deal.
 
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=502094

Please see this thread and see whats going on...the thread has gone to 5 pages already in few days.. the new bill almost being passed in Minnesota would allow a new breed of mid-career professionals.. called ADHP who could do most of the stuff dentists are doing with just 2.5 years coursework... they can do most of the surgical processes.. WITHOUT supervision of a dentist... plz support the students in MN who are fighting to minimize the harm this bill could cause to dentistry and to dentists... The ADHP's are making an issue of Medicaid patients being turned away by dentists and also lack of dental care in rural areas.. BUT nowhere in the Bill it says that the ADHP's can serve only in rural areas or just treat Medicaid patients... nothing,.. there are no restrictions.. they can do MOST of the things dentists are doing right now... without any supervision of dentists...and expected is that they would open up their practices in big citiies due to lack of ANy restriction in the bill about their area-they-could-work... adhp's are looking to replace us in MN right now with very good chances of going national...the ADHA has found a backdoor entry with just 2.5 yrs of course and become a dentist.... We should take this very seriously.. this might affect us a lot.. and I read somewhere that we don't have to worry as it would take a lot of time for ADHP's to come in real world bussines.. But I read it on ADA article.. that is posted on the last page of the thread... it says the first batch is going to start in 2009... so it is a very real issue and its going to be very quick before we realize all this... there will be a new breed of almost-dentists performing same tasks as dentists with a slight less fees and killing the dentist profession... AND the most disturbing thing in this bill is.. the purpose of bringing in the new professionals was to provide dental care to the underserved areas and Medicaid patients.... that was the whole purpose of the bill.. and NOWHERE in the bill it puts any restrictions or priorities for these ADHP's to work on these medicaid patients or in underserved areas...this is the most disturbing point.. secondly performing Irreversible surgical operations on patients without being supervised by dentists... Please contribute in whatever way you can or just debate on the issue.. as it is in MN right now and very soon will be in the whole USA if the bill goes through...as the drafters of bill have plans to...👎
 
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Enjoy while you are being payed handsomely right now.. it might not remain the same in future .. but on positive side, we can stop it...👍 help the opponenents of the Bill...contribute....👍
 
lugrest said:
Check this out - from http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/dbguide/newdent/income.as

"The average net income from the primary private practice of a new independent dentist in 2002 was $192,040." 🙂 Their definition of a new independent dentist is one who is in practice less than 10 years... Looks like good news 😀
Click to expand...

There is no way a new graduate is making over $100,000, nor less $190K. I'd like to see the numbers on that because that does not sounds reasonable.
 
sknighto said:
There is no way a new graduate is making over $100,000, nor less $190K. I'd like to see the numbers on that because that does not sounds reasonable.
Click to expand...

So, What you're saying is that it is not possible to hit the $500k gross goal within 10 years, cmon... :laugh:
 
So the few guys I know making $250-400k all had several things in common.

1. They were very good.
2. They were fast.
3. They were good businessmen
4. They were 3-4 years out of school having done military or associateships
5. They had the capital to buy a successful existing practice
6. They worked hard
7. They had some good luck

Does any of this sound like a new grad to you?

I'm just stating that if this sounds reasonable you have to ask if you have all 7. I'm not stating it can't be done, but it hasn't been my experience a new grad has all or even most of these attributes.
 
Rube said:
So the few guys I know making $250-400k all had several things in common.

1. They were very good.
2. They were fast.
3. They were good businessmen
4. They were 3-4 years out of school having done military or associateships
5. They had the capital to buy a successful existing practice
6. They worked hard
7. They had some good luck

Does any of this sound like a new grad to you?

I'm just stating that if this sounds reasonable you have to ask if you have all 7. I'm not stating it can't be done, but it hasn't been my experience a new grad has all or even most of these attributes.
Click to expand...
👍
 
Rube said:
So the few guys I know making $250-400k all had several things in common.

1. They were very good.
2. They were fast.
3. They were good businessmen
4. They were 3-4 years out of school having done military or associateships
5. They had the capital to buy a successful existing practice
6. They worked hard
7. They had some good luck

Does any of this sound like a new grad to you?

I'm just stating that if this sounds reasonable you have to ask if you have all 7. I'm not stating it can't be done, but it hasn't been my experience a new grad has all or even most of these attributes.
Click to expand...


Are you talking gross or net?
 
I have many dentists calling and asking to come be an associate right out of school. All of them want 50% of collection or a $250,000 a year salary. I tell them to look somewhere else.

Right out of school you think you know everything and you are the best dentist. 6 months later you realize you know squat. Most dentists fresh out of school barely produce $400,000 worth of dentistry. You need to build confidence in your abilities and refine your skills before you earn the big $$$$. 30% of collections is more realisitic figure.

If you were fast in school you will be fast outside school and do well. If you were slow in school you might want to look into a $150,000 a year job and be happy. Speed is the most critical thing to making money in dentistry.

The other thing is to really feel good about doing surguries. That is the one thing that has been a great income earning. If you do well at surguries, then implants will come easy, and perio surgury will come.

5-10 years out of school in the right part of the nation and your own practice you can net about $400,000 to $1,000,000 + a year.
 
30% of $400,000 collection = $140k...i'm very happy with that income...(i live way in my means)
 
30% take-home (70% overhead) - isn't this a little high? shouldn't it be near 60%
 
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