Dentist-physician

Started by Taurus
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Taurus

Paul Revere of Medicine
20+ Year Member
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As if the primary care physician didn't have enough to worry about from midlevels, here comes the dentists!

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2007/03/26/prsc0326.htm

New program combines dental, medical education
The aim of Case Western Reserve University is to teach dentists primary care skills.

By Myrle Croasdale, AMNews staff. March 26, 2007.

This fall, the Case School of Dental Medicine in Cleveland is slated to start a five-year dental medical degree program that officials believe will create a new health care professional: the dentist-physician.

Unlike dual-degree programs that produce oral surgeons, Case aims to equip dentists with primary care skills, said Marsha Pyle, DDS, associate dean for education at the dental school.
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"I see these people as pioneers who are willing to think differently about our health care system and how health care is delivered," Dr. Pyle said. "For instance, diabetes can affect wound healing. Making sure that is under control helps in dental care."

Many people visit their dentists twice a year, but they may not routinely visit their physician, she said. A dentist with preventive health training could screen patients' blood pressure, cholesterol and blood sugar. The dentist-physician would not replace the primary care physician.

Two schools have failed with similar programs, Dr. Pyle said. She anticipates the mounting evidence linking oral and general health, though, will make the Case program sustainable.

Terry Wolpaw, MD, associate dean for curricular affairs for Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine, stressed that the program would not simply bounce students between two separate schools. The Case dental school and the medical school are part of the same university.

"This will be a true dual degree from the get-go," Dr. Wolpaw said. "They get admitted to both programs simultaneously, and we've worked to create a meaningful integration."

Here's an overview of the DMD-MD curriculum:

* Year 1 -- Basic science is studied at the medical school. The head, neck, neuroanatomy and dental clinical skills are taught at the dental school.
* Year 2 -- Basic science and dental clinical science are divided between the two schools. Students focus on oral health at the end of the year.
* Year 3 -- Medical clerkships and clinical dental care one afternoon a week.
* Year 4 -- Dental clinical content and dental skill development. Medical rotations one afternoon a week.
* Year 5 -- A half-year of clinical dentistry along with core medical clerkships.

At least one year of medical residency also will be needed for graduates to become licensed in medicine.
 
Poor primary care. I don't really get WTF the point is. There's the fact that Walmart can screen BP, cholesterol and glucose so I fail to see the need for an entire field of DMD/MDs to do it. It's probably a clever trojan horse to get dentists onto accepting insurance so they can get the same reimbursement shaft as the MDs. :laugh:
 
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They're not replacing the primary care physician, but they add an MD to their title? Hmmm....
 
I don't understand why someone would spend an extra 2 years just to take the bp while drilling the patient's teeth.

If this is a shortcut to oral surgeon, yeah this is great. But I don't think this will work.
 
If they just want to check BPs and glucose and not replace primary care, maybe they should have a dentist/EMT-B program. Sure would save a lot of time.
 
If they just want to check BPs and glucose and not replace primary care, maybe they should have a dentist/EMT-B program. Sure would save a lot of time.

In fact, if you get your teeth done here at the dental school, they already check your BP before they begin.

I dont imagine many dentists would want to practice primary care in addition to dentistry...they'd take a substantial pay cut while accumulating more debt in school and having to do a low paying 1 to 3 years of residency.

That being said, i'm sure the extra time would be more than sufficient to do what they intend. Might be nice if you did dental school (as in a year or two of it...) and decided that you didnt like it much and wanted to practice medicine instead.

As a med 2, sometimes I wish that a similar program existed in the reverse direction. But, it only can work in one direction because of their early clinical training.
 
Next up, mortuary science-MD programs. Call the code, and start a new billing sheet!
 
It's probably a clever trojan horse to get dentists onto accepting insurance so they can get the same reimbursement shaft as the MDs. :laugh:

Anything we can do to wipe the smirks off the dentists' faces because they don't have to deal with Medicare, I'm all for it. :laugh: 👍
 
What dentist would want to manage chronic diseases? It really seems like Case is creating a niche long before there is a demand. Why not just let dentists do a preventive care fellowship?
 
I think this program would attract more of the dentist vs. physician undecided students as opposed to students truling wanting to be the new "dentist-physician." I was extremely undecided which route I wanted to go and I would have applied to a program like this if they had it a few years ago. After 5 years I'd have both degrees, and then I could make a better decision as to which field I wanted to practice.
 
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This program is absurd. I'm a current dental student and if I wanted to do a medical residency I would have applied to med school. Who would want to pay for a five year program (at Case no less) when you could do either one in four? Anyone can monitor general health but no dentist in their right mind would ever want to assume the liability of actually treating systemic illness.
 
degree inflation at its worst (right next to the "doctor of occupational therapy").
 
As if the primary care physician didn't have enough to worry about from midlevels, here comes the dentists!

I think I can safely speak on behalf of the majority of my colleagues on this one...we're not worried. 😉
 
It's funny to read this because there's a thread in the dental forum (not that I'm just wasting time trying to avoid renal physio 🙄 ) but it was the other way around. :laugh: Pediatricians "trained in oral health"?? http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=376270
Yeh funny, specially the posts that say something like "she hit me first" and "because she was poked in the eye thing" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Pediatricians as MDs need not train in oral health if only they are just to promote the brushing of teeth among children. But a pediatrician performing dental procedures is another thing 😱
 
Yeh funny, specially the posts that say something like "she hit me first" and "because she was poked in the eye thing" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Pediatricians as MDs need not train in oral health if only they are just to promote the brushing of teeth among children. But a pediatrician performing dental procedures is another thing 😱

Haha. They're debating whether pediatricians should be allowed to apply varnish to a kid's teeth.

P.S. Your Ju-On avatar is gonna give my nightmares. Thanks a lot.
 
Please tell me that this isn't a paranoid post about a couple of random dental students in Cleveland taking over the world with one extra year of medical training. Independently of how crazy the idea is, most people wouldn't worry anyway if there was a headline: "School with primary care mission opens a couple of extra spots."

I am actually scare of dentists, but it has nothing to do with my job 😉
 
Lol I just stumbled upon this thread in a google search.

Why would Dentists want to perform routine checks that any medical assistant can do? Bp, cholesterol, draw blood and send to lab all for $20 from medicare 😱 I'll pass
 
This dumb dumb dumb.
I see it as just another way for a school to create a combined degree program and get more tuition.

To prehealth students on here, I would say that medicine and dentistry are both important and both take a large amount of training - pick one and to it, but don't try to do both. It's not going to be workable ultimately...it would be bad patient care and it would be more than you'd be able to handle...tremendous liability as well.
 
Lol I just stumbled upon this thread in a google search.

Why would Dentists want to perform routine checks that any medical assistant can do? Bp, cholesterol, draw blood and send to lab all for $20 from medicare 😱 I'll pass

i think graduates of this program can do wonders in terms of rural healthcare, where finding a physician, let alone a dentist, is almost impossible (at least in some areas)...

but yeah, i'm not sure how it would benefit the doctor/patient in a nonrural setting...
 
A DMD-MD is a lot different than DMD, MD. This isn't really an issue though, because these docs won't be able to get medical licensure without completing a residency, and I doubt residencies will accept a DMD-MD grad to an MD residency, because they simply won't be qualified. They will not have completed an MD curriculum, and they probably will not be able to pass 3 steps of the USMLE. You cannot complete both the dental and medical curricula in 5 years.

If dentists want to check BP's and sugars, I have no problem with that. You don't need to be licensed to do those things. Good luck getting reimbursed for it without a medical license though.
 
Yet another slap in the face to Family medicine. It takes us a 3 year residency experience to qualify, but a general dentist only needs 2 more years to be considered a dentist/family doctor. :laugh: Quick, sign me up for the Family Physician to dentist program so that I can make money too.
 
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A DMD-MD is a lot different than DMD, MD. This isn't really an issue though, because these docs won't be able to get medical licensure without completing a residency, and I doubt residencies will accept a DMD-MD grad to an MD residency, because they simply won't be qualified. They will not have completed an MD curriculum, and they probably will not be able to pass 3 steps of the USMLE. You cannot complete both the dental and medical curricula in 5 years.

If dentists want to check BP's and sugars, I have no problem with that. You don't need to be licensed to do those things. Good luck getting reimbursed for it without a medical license though.

Cpants, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you would be surprised. I was interested enough in the program that I checked it out a couple years ago when I was applying to med school. What I was told was that these students are exempted from very little--- first two years, they do all med school classes in the morning and all dental school classes in the afternoon. This sounds insanely hard, and I'm sure it is, but keep in mind that a lot of first and second year classes are probably pretty similar between med and dent (dental student biochem can't be too different from med student biochem). The last 3 years of the program are reserved for the clinical rotations, where my understanding was you complete all mandatory rotations for both fields (considering that the 4th years I know seem to spend a lot of the year either doing electives or on vacation I will believe that this is possible). A graduate would be fully eligible to sit for the usmle exams and eligible to accept any residency offered.
Now don't get me wrong- anybody who did this program wouldn't have too much of a life on the side for the 5 years, and the people at Case I spoke to were pretty upfront about that. I decided that the program wasn't for me, but if there are a handful of people who want to put themselves through that in order to be able to provide more complete care to those that probably aren't going to make it in to both a family doc and dentist's office (the program is aimed at students who want to care for indigent populations) then more power to them.
 
I'd be very surprised if this program recruits enough applicants to survive for more than a few years. Dentistry is a pretty good gig, and people apply to dental school because they want to be capable dentists, not second-rate primary care physicians.

I enjoy being a dentist, I hope my PCP enjoys being a PCP, and I'm perfectly happy that our paths only cross two or three times a year when one of us has a checkup scheduled with the other.
 
Cpants, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you would be surprised. I was interested enough in the program that I checked it out a couple years ago when I was applying to med school. What I was told was that these students are exempted from very little--- first two years, they do all med school classes in the morning and all dental school classes in the afternoon. This sounds insanely hard, and I'm sure it is, but keep in mind that a lot of first and second year classes are probably pretty similar between med and dent (dental student biochem can't be too different from med student biochem). The last 3 years of the program are reserved for the clinical rotations, where my understanding was you complete all mandatory rotations for both fields (considering that the 4th years I know seem to spend a lot of the year either doing electives or on vacation I will believe that this is possible). A graduate would be fully eligible to sit for the usmle exams and eligible to accept any residency offered.
Now don't get me wrong- anybody who did this program wouldn't have too much of a life on the side for the 5 years, and the people at Case I spoke to were pretty upfront about that. I decided that the program wasn't for me, but if there are a handful of people who want to put themselves through that in order to be able to provide more complete care to those that probably aren't going to make it in to both a family doc and dentist's office (the program is aimed at students who want to care for indigent populations) then more power to them.

Hey, if they complete all of the MD requirements, including the same number of hours in medical clerkships, then I have no issue with them being eligible to take licensing exams and apply for residencies. I do find it hard to believe that it is possible to compress 2 programs which take a combined 8 years of school into 5 years without losing some of the curriculum along the way.
 
You know, I just have to comment how crazy this program is. Combined degree programs almost invariably shave one year off doing them separately. MD/JD is 4+3-1 = 6. Yet this combines two four year programs into a FIVE year program? Giving two degrees for this is utterly absurd. They shouldn't be allowed to call themselves both.
 
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I have a problem that is its too bed my breath what can i do

I m waiting for your answer

Jhon
 
Cpants, I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you would be surprised. I was interested enough in the program that I checked it out a couple years ago when I was applying to med school. What I was told was that these students are exempted from very little--- first two years, they do all med school classes in the morning and all dental school classes in the afternoon. This sounds insanely hard, and I'm sure it is, but keep in mind that a lot of first and second year classes are probably pretty similar between med and dent (dental student biochem can't be too different from med student biochem). The last 3 years of the program are reserved for the clinical rotations, where my understanding was you complete all mandatory rotations for both fields (considering that the 4th years I know seem to spend a lot of the year either doing electives or on vacation I will believe that this is possible). A graduate would be fully eligible to sit for the usmle exams and eligible to accept any residency offered.
Now don't get me wrong- anybody who did this program wouldn't have too much of a life on the side for the 5 years, and the people at Case I spoke to were pretty upfront about that. I decided that the program wasn't for me, but if there are a handful of people who want to put themselves through that in order to be able to provide more complete care to those that probably aren't going to make it in to both a family doc and dentist's office (the program is aimed at students who want to care for indigent populations) then more power to them.

Most people go through this program with hopes of getting into an Oral and Maxillofacial surgery program and not to become PCPs or FPs.
 
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one is not qualified to check a bp and interpret it unlessone is licensed and that usually requires at least one year of residency in most states. so these dentists are going to have to do some residency time to get licensed.
 
one is not qualified to check a bp and interpret it unlessone is licensed and that usually requires at least one year of residency in most states. so these dentists are going to have to do some residency time to get licensed.

Um no. I was taught how to take a blood pressure and interpret it to determine if my patient is physiologically able to handle an extraction or other dental procedure that day. I've got a spyghmomanometer from dental school lying around somewhere. Now I can not interpret their blood pressure and subsequently prescribe an anti-hypertensives, that would require a medical license. But I can check it and make a referral if I find it is abnormal.
 
This program is NOT an "easy" entrance into OMF at Case. The OMF program did not change. Many dental students take the same classes as first and second year medical students. At the third year level, they move into dental practice preparatory coursework where a medical student moves into medical practice coursework. The education of a dental student and a medical student are fairly comparable at the end of the first two years.

At third year, professional school training diverges from the medical school but they are not any less trained to practice clinically. This program at Case is an effort to add the "third year" for those dental students who might want to pursue a medical residency as they will be MDs. It's a combined degree similiar to MD-MBA, MD-Ph-D etc. These folks will be eligible for any residency and not specifically limited to primary care or shunted into primary care. They will be dentist-physicians and there won't be tons of them.

The OMF folks still have twice as much training as the average MD and will still practice their specialty unaffected.
 
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OK, this thread is 2 years old. Does anyone know whether this program actually got off the ground, or is it the biomedical education equivalent of vaporware?

Case has a website about the program, but it says "The School of Dental Medicine and School of Medicine at Case Western Reserve University together, wish to create a new, innovative, first-of-its-kind, dual-degree program." [My emphasis.] The various subsections of the website contain all sorts of statements about what the program "will" do, as opposed to what it actually does.

Plus, I don't want to give away where I go to school, but let's just say a little bird told me that he's a current med student at Case and does not know anyone in this program. (Or, perhaps we should say, "program.")

A little bird also told me njbmd doesn't know what she's talking about.