Dentistry becoming TOO preventative?

Started by HenryH
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HenryH

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I was reading in Popular Science magazine about a new device that would spray some sort of liquid in patients' mouths and "highlight" areas that are prone to/becoming severely infected. I forget the specifics of it, and I probably didn't even give a correct description, but it got me thinking...what happens if dentistry becomes too preventative? Would dentists be able to earn livings off of check-ups and minor treatments such as these?

I'm not preaching the end or anything like that; I'm merely a curious pre-dental student who is pondering the future of dentistry. I would love to hear what dental students and current practitioners have to say on this matter. Do you foresee a time when the majority of the "big-earner" treatments are unneeded and obsolete?
 
I was reading in Popular Science magazine about a new device that would spray some sort of liquid in patients' mouths and "highlight" areas that are prone to/becoming severely infected. I forget the specifics of it, and I probably didn't even give a correct description, but it got me thinking...what happens if dentistry becomes too preventative? Would dentists be able to earn livings off of check-ups and minor treatments such as these?

I'm not preaching the end or anything like that; I'm merely a curious pre-dental student who is pondering the future of dentistry. I would love to hear what dental students and current practitioners have to say on this matter. Do you foresee a time when the majority of the "big-earner" treatments are unneeded and obsolete?

Not anytime soon! Between replacing the hundreds of millions of old restorations, cosmetics, trauma, thats lots and lots of work. Now with respect to what is essentially the caries vaccine that you described, it won;t happen anytime soon (if ever) and here's why. 1st, clinical trials will raise the issue of introducing what in many current forms is a new live virus into the human body - and that will run into issues. Secondly, if they can get a vaccine through trials, here's where it will hit a sticking issue. The caries vaccine will need to be administered multiple times per year, with fees at each administration. I will guarentee that dental insurance companies will take a real long look at what the cost of the vaccine is per year vs. what the yearly average expenditure per patient per year on restorative work is. If the restorative work is less expensive on average per year, then guarenteed they won't cover it, and hence a HUGE percentage of the population won't pay out of pocket for it, and that combined with this countries love for sugared beverages, mints and gums will assure this profession of hundreds or millions of carious lesions for years to come😀
 
somebody correct me if i am wrong about this: cleanings and check-ups provide a lot of a general dentists revenue. so, in a financial view i do not believe that we can be too preventative.

on another note, are we not in this profession to cure dental disease? one of our pedo faculty poses this question (commonly) on interviews: what would you say if there was a "vaccine" for dental caries? the correct answer should be: great, awesome, amazing, no more suffering children, no more caries. all too often people are worried about their job, and how they are going to make a living without decaying teeth to fill. lots of people lose sight of the true nature of what we do.
 
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somebody correct me if i am wrong about this: cleanings and check-ups provide a lot of a general dentists revenue. so, in a financial view i do not believe that we can be too preventative.

QUOTE]


In my practice, hygiene production makes up roughly 1/3rd of the yearly gross, so yes it can provide a very sizeable amount of production👍
 
If you're still worried about your financial future, you can't go wrong with ortho😀
 
Cant and wont happen anytime soon

big business has too much invested in dentistry...from supplies to toothpastes...
 
on another note, are we not in this profession to cure dental disease? one of our pedo faculty poses this question (commonly) on interviews: what would you say if there was a "vaccine" for dental caries? the correct answer should be: great, awesome, amazing, no more suffering children, no more caries. all too often people are worried about their job, and how they are going to make a living without decaying teeth to fill. lots of people lose sight of the true nature of what we do.

ROFL ...good one, you almost had me for second
 
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This thread is so sad. I can't believe there are even this many people who would openly hope progress is stunted so that they can make more money.

So you would have no problem with taking, say, a 70% or 80% pay-cut in the future?
 
No actually the joke is on you.
I guess I can see now why people treatment plan 20 composites, just to replace "poisonous" silver fillings and why others have no problem doing veneers on 14 year old kids or what have you ...

The main benefit I see of a so called "caries vaccine" would be that more people would have access to care, due to the fact that dentists would not be as overwhelmed as today.

Job security ? Chill ... boomers will keep at least our generation pretty busy. Furthermore, and mark my words, the future of dentistry IS in fact evidence based prevention.

On a lighter note, there was, is and unfortunately will be no "caries vaccine" in the foreseen future. Municipally fluoridated water is as good as it gets (realistically speaking).


Oh dude....you're in for a rude awakening.
 
Not if it meant that the whole of dental disease would basically be eradicated.

What I have a problem with is that there are people in this world who would put their mortgage and car payment before the health of others.

...you'd be out of a career if dental disease was mostly eradicated...
 
Yes...that's what I've been saying this whole thread?

You'd be willing to waste the (possibly) hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on your dental school education (as well as undergrad)?

Wow. I'm glad most dentists, and especially researchers, don't share the same attitude...
 
You'd be willing to waste the (possibly) hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on your dental school education (as well as undergrad)?

Wow. I'm glad most dentists, and especially researchers, don't share the same attitude...

Wow, that's absolutely abhorrent that you would be glad that people would put their personal financial future ahead of progress that could avert disease and suffering for millions, potentially billions of people.

My financial worries are nothing compared to the collective suffering of all the people in the world with caries, from this moment to eternity. As I said before, if a perfect caries vaccine were to come out the day I graduated I would be pretty alright with it.

While it would pretty adversely affect my life (I'd almost certainly end up in some sort of other health profession, which would be more debt if the government didn't step in and start forgiving loans) it certainly wouldn't end it, cripple my career, or even cause me to start living anything approaching what I consider a poor quality of life.

This thread is making me sick.
 
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It's tricky being a dentist or any health professional. When you treat patients you want them to get better, you give them advice, and you feel great when they get better. However, there's a part of you that is always praying there will be sick people showing up at your door so you can support your family...etc. Haven't you got the news?......life is fuk up!

Got a story to tell:
When I was going to Buffalo for the interview, I overheard some doctor's conversation behind me at the airport....she was talking about how she was trying to tell her friend to stop smoking, but her friend wouldn't do it...and that end she said, "Oh well, she keeps my business growing"
 
Wow, that's absolutely abhorrent that you would be glad that people would put their personal financial future ahead of progress that could avert disease and suffering for millions, potentially billions of people.

My financial worries are nothing compared to the collective suffering of all the people in the world with caries, from this moment to eternity. As I said before, if a perfect caries vaccine were to come out the day I graduated I would be pretty alright with it.

While it would pretty adversely affect my life (I'd almost certainly end up in some sort of other health profession, which would be more debt if the government didn't step in and start forgiving loans) it certainly wouldn't end it, cripple my career, or even cause me to start living anything approaching what I consider a poor quality of life.

This thread is making me sick.

I hear there is this thing called toothpaste and if you use it twice a day and floss that you wont be that likely to get carries. And it is real cheap.

It wouldnt matter how preventative dentistry becomes. Insurance wont cover (most anyway) preventative treatment, so its better to get a cavity so insurance will pay for it instead of getting the seven dollar flouride treatment.
 
I hear there is this thing called toothpaste and if you use it twice a day and floss that you wont be that likely to get carries. And it is real cheap.

It wouldnt matter how preventative dentistry becomes. Insurance wont cover (most anyway) preventative treatment, so its better to get a cavity so insurance will pay for it instead of getting the seven dollar flouride treatment.

That is very true. In fact, that's what wrong with your healthcare system
 
I hear there is this thing called toothpaste and if you use it twice a day and floss that you wont be that likely to get carries. And it is real cheap.

It wouldnt matter how preventative dentistry becomes. Insurance wont cover (most anyway) preventative treatment, so its better to get a cavity so insurance will pay for it instead of getting the seven dollar flouride treatment.

Right, a real caries vaccine has already happened though, fluoride, toothpaste and flossing, etc...

I'm just trying to point out the attitude in the thread. People in here who haven't even seen a patient before are already putting their bullsh*t worries at the forefront.
 
Right, a real caries vaccine has already happened though, fluoride, toothpaste and flossing, etc...

I'm just trying to point out the attitude in the thread. People in here who haven't even seen a patient before are already putting their bullsh*t worries at the forefront.


I cant believe that you have started classes already. I still have like 10 days.
 
supposedly eating a good diet and working out regularly can be preventative for all sorts of ailments. unfortunately it doesn't mean people will actually do it.

they'd rather spend $20 on some ab-machine, or on pills that'll help you lose weight w/o working out.

now do you really believe people will go the extra mile to brush/floss/waterpik regularly, remove candy and sugary sodas from their diet, use preventative mouthwashes that change the pH balance of one's mouth, or even visit the dentist regularly?

i wouldn't bet any money on that 🙄
 
me smearing ketchup all over the tables at McDonalds assures someone job security.


😀

1. Dentistry will in our careers most likely never see a 'magic vaccine', just like the fat person taking hydroxycut will not get skinny if they keep sitting on the couch and eating pound cake and soda.

No one has anything to worry about. Altruism on SDN is so last year armorshell, get with the times.😛😀
 
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If by started classes you mean halfway through the first quarter 😎

First operative practical on thursday, I figure if I pull real hard I might be able to get a "Barely clinically acceptable"

Time sure flies, it seems like just yesterday we we're posting about interviews doesn't it? I can;'t believe your already knee deep into your first qtr. School for me starts in about...2 month!
 
I've gotta agree with armorshell on this topic. Do we not as dentists and dental students provide preventative care, preventative oral hygiene instruction, preventative nutritional education and counseling and a number of other measures that are designed to decrease the prevalence of dental caries and periodontal disease? Look at all the dentists nationwide that advocate fluoridation of drinking water! Will you as a dentist design your restorations to fail within only a few years so you can re-treat, re-charge, and blame it all on the patient's home care just so you can increase your revenue? Or will you design your restorations to last forever and hope you never have to retreat them despite the financial gain if you do? Will you let your patient leave your office with their uneducated view of hygiene, so that when they return, and you look at all the new decay and mountains of plaque, you see dollar signs in your eyes? Or will you have regular recalls and prophies, provide detailed hygiene/nutritional education, and recommend preventative products (like fluoride rinses, Sonicare toothbrushes, Xylitol gum, etc) for your patients? If you answered yes to the first and third questions, get out of the field because you are in it for the worst of the worst reasons: to perpetuate disease in order to profit off it. It's like the mostly anecdotal theories I hear about pharmaceutical companies sweeping new and highly effective treatments/cures under the rug so that they can continue profiting off their already profitable, but limitedly successful products/treatments.

As a third (almost 4th) year student, I hate seeing people with terrible oral health conditions. Sure, it's a lot of much needed and appreciated experience for me, and in the future a gold mine of income, but I would honestly rather look at a patient and for once be able to say "Wow, Mr/Mrs So-and-so, everything looks fantastic. You've been doing an excellent job taking care of your teeth. We've got nothing to do. See you in 6 months."

But, we also have to keep in mind reality. Dentistry is NOT just treating cavities. Even if curing decay, or making it so preventable that it was a rare entity became a reality occurs in any kind of near future, there will still be plenty of necessity for the dental profession. There's trauma, there's oral surgery issues like impacted teeth and supernumeraries, there's ortho (as mentioned previously), there's staining and discoloration that may have nothing to do with disease processes, there's tooth malformation/position issues that may not be aesthetic, there's asymmetry problems, there's gingival appearance issues (like the person who has short teeth due to gingival overgrowth), there's functional issues such as grinding/clenching, there's abrasion and erosion from physical and chemical factors (over brushing, bulimia, etc), there's TMJ problems, that vain person who despite their nice looking teeth wants "perfection" in the form of veneers, and the list goes on I'm sure. The fact of the matter is, curing dental caries will not eliminate the need for qualified and educated dentists.

However, let's say there are new technologies that eliminate or greatly reduce the need for dentists. Sucks to be us from a career standpoint, but guess what? Technology replaces jobs all the time. I really get bothered by laborers that complain that there are machines now that can do what they do, and now they are out of a job. Get over it and get a new one. Why have 100 coal miners working for months with pick axes and shovels for months to do the same job a big machine can do in hours? If that happens to dentistry, we'll have to get over it and find a new path (but I doubt that will happen any time soon or even in the not so near future).

So my take? First of all, relax. Your career is not jeopardy in my opinion. Second of all, remind yourself of your obligation to prevent disease, and appreciate it.
 
For those who feel that this is but a blip on the "distant horizon," check out the article (scroll down to "Dentist-on-a-Chip"):

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/0d796852421b3110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

It says that this thing should be in dentists' offices nationwide within six years or less.

DrJeff -- I think this thing is more imminent than previously described...


I don't think the chip will make that much of a difference. Sure, there will be people that will get the "chip" done, but it will probably cost $60-100+ bucks to do so, so a lot of the people that need the "chip" probably won't get it done. If people avoid perio treatment because is hasn't affected them in a noticeable way, why would they begin treatment before we can currently detect it? Heck, even perio's can't decide on when to begin treatment.
 
For those who feel that this is but a blip on the "distant horizon," check out the article (scroll down to "Dentist-on-a-Chip"):

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/technology/0d796852421b3110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

It says that this thing should be in dentists' offices nationwide within six years or less.

DrJeff -- I think this thing is more imminent than previously described...

Saliva testing chip != caries vaccine. As far as that is concerned, I think the researchers are highly overestimating the willingness of people to be "chipped"
 
Face it people. You're going to be doctors, and as such, you have a SOCIAL OBLIGATION. If you're worried about how much skrilla you'll be pulling in, go work for Goldman Sachs as an iBanker, DONT go into the health care field. Sure you're here for financial security, but more than anything you are here to SERVE SOCIETY.

Amorshell is absolutely right.

Let's say we do come up with some magical sealant or some **** that can prevent caries of all kinds. Does that mean dentistry as a profession will be wiped out??? Did dermatologists go out of business with the advent of sun screen and moisturizer??? Hell no! The profession just evolves. Industries survive through evolution.
 
I don't get all the hate for those worrying about their financial futures. It is a very smart thing to do, especially when you are about to make a 200-300k+ investment. Now, if you are only in dentistry for the money, then hate away. But, you are borrowing a lot of money and taking on a lot of personal responsibility and debt. You should never make any investment until you have researched every possibility with what could happen with that investment. If a lot of us graduated from dental school with 250k in debt and they made dentistry irrelevant, we would be screwed. We would be screwed way worse than any laborer. That is debt that most of us would never be able to get out from under. So, be smart with what you are going to do with your future, and don't hate on others for trying to make the best educated decision for themselves.
 
If you're worried about how much skrilla you'll be pulling in, go work for Goldman Sachs as an iBanker, DONT go into the health care field.

Most people go into health care for the financial security. The reality is, it is easier to make money in health care than as a worker for Goldman Sachs, real estate investor, etc. If it wasn't that way, you wouldn't attract the best minds into the field. I hope it never changes (money wise) so you can be assured that your doctor was the best of the best.
 
you might as well of posted to this:
potty

Chips are great, but dentists see more than swollen gums and gum disease which can be reversed after some rigorous hygienic work and patient dedication.

+1 for D. Jeff's comments. I have stated this stance many times on the forum and a vaccine has been proposed since vaccines have been founded. Not that I condone research into this area, and like armorshell, i agree patient care and health is > money, but like I said I don' think we have anything to worry about. A vaccine for caries is just as remote a a vaccine for the flu (to fully eradicate it), etc.
 
Aren't Vaccines for viruses?

Also I wasn't condoning "doing it for the money" I was just saying that it is what makes the world turn...not just in dentistry.
 
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Aren't Vaccines for viruses?

Not exclusively, there are vaccines for V. cholera and Y. pestis, virii are just the most common example.

Also, the "caries vaccine" isn't really a vaccine, it's a bacterial replacement therapy. The general thrust is to disinfect the oral cavity and replace the natural flora with a mutated version of S. mutans which produces an antibiotic instead of lactic acid.
 
All of this talk of shaming the dentists who are eager to earn a very good living is hollow until the shamer is actually willing to go to work for free after graduation. Truth is that I'm not interested in supporting the millions of people who kick good advice to the curb, but then come complaining about dentistry's high fees once they have a problem. It's the same argument used against socialized medicine: Should you and I pay the medical bills of the guy who continues to smoke, drink, over-eat, and lie on the couch?

I'm not worried about the job security of dentists. No "magic" remedy will ever be found that will replace the need for dentists. I just can't imagine a scenario that would make dentists obsolete; however, I have patients who swear that nanobot dentistry is just around the corner, and they wonder what are my back up plans. I tell them it will be selling nanobots.
 
Not exclusively, there are viruses for V. cholera and Y. pestis, virii are just the most common example.

Also, the "caries vaccine" isn't really a vaccine, it's a bacterial replacement therapy. The general thrust is to disinfect the oral cavity and replace the natural flora with a mutated version of S. mutans which produces an antibiotic instead of lactic acid.

For some reason that carries vaccine seems like a really bad idea. How long does it take for bacteria to develop antiboitic resistence?

And it will probably cost about 600 dollars to administer.👍
 
I'm not worried about the job security of dentists. No "magic" remedy will ever be found that will replace the need for dentists. I just can't imagine a scenario that would make dentists obsolete; however, I have patients who swear that nanobot dentistry is just around the corner, and they wonder what are my back up plans. I tell them it will be selling nanobots.

I'm already involved in negotiations to supply nanobots to out-of-work dentists to sell; looks like I'll have more job security than you, Jada-whatever.
 
All of this talk of shaming the dentists who are eager to earn a very good living is hollow until the shamer is actually willing to go to work for free after graduation.

Since this argument appears to be pointed in my direction, I'll respond by saying I said nor implied no such thing. My argument was against people who would purposefully "sweep under the rug" research that could potentially help millions simply because it would hurt their bank account. This isn't how science and research is supposed to work.

I have absolutely no problem with dentists making money for the services they perform, be they interventional, cosmetic, preventative, whatever.

Truth is that I'm not interested in supporting the millions of people who kick good advice to the curb, but then come complaining about dentistry's high fees once they have a problem. It's the same argument used against socialized medicine: Should you and I pay the medical bills of the guy who continues to smoke, drink, over-eat, and lie on the couch?

Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with the argument at hand.

Comparing a caries vaccine, however unlikely it is, to the classic neo-conservative argument against socialized healthcare (caries vaccine is un-needed if people took care of themselves to begin with) seems almost Luddite-esqe. You could apply the same argument to scaling and root planing. Why bother helping those who refuse to help themselves right?

Advancing technology has nothing to do with socialized healthcare.
 
There seems to be alot of arguments LOOMING around on this thread.
 
Since this argument appears to be pointed in my direction, I'll respond by saying I said nor implied no such thing. My argument was against people who would purposefully "sweep under the rug" research that could potentially help millions simply because it would hurt their bank account. This isn't how science and research is supposed to work.

I have absolutely no problem with dentists making money for the services they perform, be they interventional, cosmetic, preventative, whatever.

Not sure what, if anything, this has to do with the argument at hand.

Comparing a caries vaccine, however unlikely it is, to the classic neo-conservative argument against socialized healthcare (caries vaccine is un-needed if people took care of themselves to begin with) seems almost Luddite-esqe. You could apply the same argument to scaling and root planing. Why bother helping those who refuse to help themselves right?

Advancing technology has nothing to do with socialized healthcare.

I don't think anyone was willing to suppress good medicine/dentistry. Sounds more like someone was waiting for the opportunity to stand on a soapbox and preach altruism to the masses. Simply sounding worried about the future of a profession with respect to a "cure-all" drug/vaccine doesn't mean the person has placed money above care. It means the person has a very narrow view of what a dentist does on a daily basis. Its naive, not sad.

With regards to my neo-conservative comments, I don't need to poke holes in the "caries vaccine" myth, nor was it my intention. I was supporting the idea that dentists shouldn't support society by providing cheap or free dentistry. There are certainly at least two sides to the issue, and both are well respected. But, the matter should be more fully discussed in a different thread.

Furthermore, folks who show up to the dentist and desire to have their teeth cleaned have elected to take care of the problem--and, they are willing to pay for it.
 
I'm already involved in negotiations to supply nanobots to out-of-work dentists to sell; looks like I'll have more job security than you, Jada-whatever.

Ooooo...wow! Glad to see your around Typo. Was just wondering how you and the family were doing. Hope clinic is going well for you. Things are busy here. Ten short months until graduation.
 
For some reason that carries vaccine seems like a really bad idea. How long does it take for bacteria to develop antiboitic resistence?

And it will probably cost about 600 dollars to administer.👍

This is going to be the BIGGEST issue. If you all just think that every insurance company will just magically start paying out ALOT more money per year than the currently do per patient in the name of prevention, than you'll be in for a rude awakening.

Fact number one, most insurance carrying patients will accept treatment AS LONG AS ITS A COVERED PROCEEDURE.

Fact number 2 - insurance companies are FOr PROFIT companies, and whatever steps they can take to decrease costs and increase profits they tend to do (you'll learn about things like code bundling and down coding in the future in private practice)

Fact number 3 - insurance companies have HUGE data bases about patient utilization of benefits, they know on average how much they'll pay out currently in claims per patient per individual zip code, let alone regionally and nationally.

Fact 4 - No matter how great the potential a caries vaccine has, when it comes to insurance, if the insurance company has to pay out more per year on average to administer this vaccine than they currently do for restorative (you'll still need prophies + exams + x-rays), they either won't cover it, or will but at an increase cost to employers, who then for a cost savings may choose not to make it a covered proceedure

Bottom line, if its not a covered fee due to economics, not alot of people will get it, and once again the wonderful world of sugared beverages and foods will keep us with alot of teeth to work on for some time to come!
 
I don't think anyone was willing to suppress good medicine/dentistry. Sounds more like someone was waiting for the opportunity to stand on a soapbox and preach altruism to the masses. Simply sounding worried about the future of a profession with respect to a "cure-all" drug/vaccine doesn't mean the person has placed money above care. It means the person has a very narrow view of what a dentist does on a daily basis. Its naive, not sad.

With regards to my neo-conservative comments, I don't need to poke holes in the "caries vaccine" myth, nor was it my intention. I was supporting the idea that dentists shouldn't support society by providing cheap or free dentistry. There are certainly at least two sides to the issue, and both are well respected. But, the matter should be more fully discussed in a different thread.

Furthermore, folks who show up to the dentist and desire to have their teeth cleaned have elected to take care of the problem--and, they are willing to pay for it.

Nice to meet you kettle. It's fine if you want to accuse me of waiting for a thread to come around so I can soapbox about altruism in research, but I least I wait for an appropriate thread. Not sure how you extracted social healthcare out of a caries vaccine, but you sure do seem eager to talk about it.

Also, it seems to me that hoping a large group of people to be disease free because it would hurt your career is analogous to hoping your patients don't follow home care instructions so you can do more restorations. While that's not technically unethical (so long as you don't change your standard of care) it certainly does seem a bit sleasy doesn't it?
 
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