Dentists' pay tops doctors'

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kornphan

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( this site won't let me post the whole article.. ( too long ) but you can view it at :
http://www.bradenton.com/mld/bradenton/business/10614433.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

January 16 2005
Dentists' pay tops doctors'
Even with fewer cavities to fill, dentists' earnings are skyrocketing
MARK MAREMONT
The Wall Street Journal

YARDLEY, Pa. - Randy Bryson and his brother-in-law Larry Fazioli are both medical professionals in their 40s who practice in Pennsylvania. The similarity ends there.

At Dr. Bryson's office here in suburban Philadelphia, a fountain softly burbles in the airy reception area, and patients are offered cappuccino or paraffin-wax hand treatments while they wait. Dr. Bryson works four days a week, drives a Mercedes, and lives in a 4,000-square-foot house with a pool. He and his wife, who works part-time in the same practice, together take home more than $500,000 a year.

At Dr. Fazioli's busy practice near Pittsburgh, patients crowd a utilitarian waiting room, and his cramped office is piled high with records awaiting dictation. Dr. Fazioli says he works between 55 and 80 hours a week, and his annual income of less than $180,000 has been stagnant or down the past few years. He drives a Chevrolet.

The key to their different lives: Dr. Bryson is a dentist, and Dr. Fazioli is a family-practice physician.

Once the poor relations in the medical field, dentists in the past few years have started making more money than many types of physicians, including internal-medicine doctors, pediatricians, psychiatrists, and those in family practice, according to survey data from the American Dental Association and American Medical Association.

On average, general dentists in 2000, the most recent year for which comparative data are available, earned $166,460 - compared with $164,100 for general internal-medicine doctors, $145,700 for psychiatrists, $144,700 for family-practice physicians, and $137,800 for pediatricians. All indications are that dentists have at least kept pace with physicians since then.

Those figures are a sharp contrast to 1988, when the average general dentist made $78,000, two-thirds the level of the average internal-medicine doctor, and behind every other type of physician. From 1988 to 2000, dentists' incomes more than doubled, while the average physician's income grew 42 percent. The rate of inflation
during that same period was 46 percent.

Factor in hours worked - dentists tend to put in 40-hour weeks, the ADA says, while the AMA says physicians generally work 50 to 55 hours - and the discrepancy is even greater.

"I feel so bad for Larry," says Dr. Bryson of his brother-in-law the doctor. "Especially when he's on call, he puts in some pretty long hours. Physically, it's really taking a toll on him."

Dr. Fazioli says he still gets a lot of satisfaction out of being a doctor and earns a comfortable living. But he admits he'd steer his children away from primary-care medicine as a career. Of his three sons, he adds, two might be interested in dentistry instead. "They see that Randy is doing OK," he says.

Many specialist physicians, such as cardiologists and radiologists, continue to rake in large incomes, generally exceeding those of specialist dentists such as oral surgeons and periodontists. But specialist dentists, too, have seen their paychecks increase at a much faster rate than their physician counterparts.

Dentists have grown richer even as cavities, once the main cause for visiting them, have declined, largely because of fluoridation of drinking water and improved preventive care. According to a study published in the Journal of the American Dental Association in 1999, cavities in 6-to-18-year-olds dropped by three-fifths from the early 1970s to the early 1990s - even though many children in lower socioeconomic groups still lack adequate dental care.

As people born in the 1960s and later have grown into adulthood, they tend to need fewer fillings than their parents did and are keeping their teeth longer. Painful disease-related procedures such as root canals are declining, too.

So why are dentists so handily outpacing doctors? In part, it's because dentists have avoided being flattened by the managed-care steamroller, and instead many have turned into upscale marketers. Dental care makes up less than 5 percent of the overall U.S. health bill, and hasn't been a major focus of cost-cutting.

Although some dental insurers have tightened up on reimbursements, most private dental insurance is still paid on a fee-for-service basis. Many optional procedures aren't covered by insurance, leaving dentists free to charge whatever the market will bear. About 44 percent of all dental care is paid by patients out of their own pockets, according to federal statistics for 2002, compared with just 10 percent for all physician and clinical costs.

While dentists may be able to focus more on marketing costly optional treatments, many physicians can't make the same kind of switch in their practices.

In competing for patients' own dollars, dentists have become more entrepreneurial, tapping into today's image-conscious zeitgeist. Many dental offices are festooned with pitches for everything from $400 teeth-whitening treatments to $1,200-per-tooth veneer jobs.

There are even $30,000-plus full "smile makeovers" offered by a growing coterie of dentists who specialize in high-end cosmetic procedures. Public awareness of such techniques has been heightened by reality-TV shows such as ABC's "Extreme Makeover" and Fox Broadcasting's "The Swan."

L. Jackson Brown, an economist who is associate executive director at the ADA, says cosmetic procedures account for about 10 percent of the nation's $80 billion annual dental bill, and are rising fast.

Sally McKenzie, a dental-practice consultant in La Jolla, Calif., who has been in business for 25 years, calls it a "golden era for dentistry." The most common call she gets, Ms. McKenzie says, is to help dentists manage "uncontrolled growth."
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Dentists also have taken advantage of new technology, some of it controversial even within the profession. One major advance was the invention of porcelain veneers, which are wafer-thin shells of material that are bonded to the fronts of teeth to repair chips or misalignment. Unlike older surfacing materials, porcelain resists staining and looks like a natural tooth surface. Some dentists claim the procedure, which involves an irreversible filing down of natural teeth, can create problems. But proponents say that, done right, such veneers can stay in place for years.

"Today, you can create a smile" from materials that people "can't tell are not real teeth," says Joe Barton, a Jacksonville, Fla., dentist who specializes in cosmetic procedures. He says he typically charges from $12,000 to $14,000 to put veneers on 10 front teeth, requiring about 3 1/2 hours of his time. "We are competing with cars and vacations and jet skis and new homes, in terms of what people are spending their disposable income on," he says.

Intra-oral video cameras, tiny pen-shaped devices that can be used to display images of the inside of a patient's mouth, have become de rigueur. The cameras, which typically cost $2,000 or more, have little clinical purpose - but there's nothing like seeing an up-close video of unsightly teeth on an overhead TV to persuade a patient that something needs to be done.

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Dr. Bryson, 44 years old, wanted to be a dentist from the time he was 5, his sister recalls. "We called him Rockefeller Bryson," she says. "He always liked the finer things in life."

While attending dental school in Philadelphia, Dr. Bryson met his wife, Toni Margio, a fellow student. They soon opened a joint practice in affluent Yardley, about a half-hour north of the city.

By the late 1990s, their practice was booming. But Dr. Margio says they both felt like they were "always on roller skates." They worked 10-to-12-hour days, and had to rely on Dr. Margio's mother to care for their son, now 8 years old. Dental insurers were forcing them to discount fees.

Five years ago, after attending classes at the Las Vegas Institute for Advanced Dental Studies, a school known for an aggressive brand of cosmetic dentistry, they dramatically changed their practice. They stopped accepting insurance - patients are billed directly and can wrestle with insurers on their own - and started plugging veneers, whitening and other elective procedures.

"We shifted from needs-based dentistry to wants-based dentistry," says the youthful-looking Dr. Bryson, who has a dazzling smile. "It has totally transformed our practice and our personal lives. We see a much smaller number of patients, at a slower pace. I can't wait to get in in the morning."
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Since changing their practice, Dr. Bryson says he has cut back from 60-hour weeks to 32 clinical hours a week, plus some paperwork time. Dr. Margio now works 18 clinical hours, giving her more time with their son. Both take every Wednesday off. "I coach my son's soccer team," Dr. Bryson says. "I don't miss a practice."

The work, he says, is also more satisfying. "I get patient letters, I get hugs. People cry when they see their teeth. I never got that before."


Dr. Fazioli recently went to a local dentist to get a bridge put in. The procedure, he says, took about 1 1/2 hours over two visits. The bill: $1,200, all of which he had to pay from his own pocket. "I was thinking, 'How many people do I have to see to get that?' " Dr. Fazioli says. "If I made $200 in that amount of time, I'd be lucky."
 
I'd want to see more data before buying into that statement.
Is that "general dentists earned.." figure a mean or a median? There are hotshot dentists pulling in millions a year but where is mention of the struggling start-ups who can't market themselves with all the competition in town?

I'd bet that the distribution of incomes in medicine is much closer to the mean, making it a more appealing profession income-wise (but hey, that's just my perspective of someone still in school who'll have loans to pay back).
 
I know some young dentists. They're all doing pretty well.
 
"On average, general dentists in 2000, the most recent year for which comparative data are available, earned $166,460 - compared with $164,100 for general internal-medicine doctors, $145,700 for psychiatrists, $144,700 for family-practice physicians, and $137,800 for pediatricians. All indications are that dentists have at least kept pace with physicians since then."

That's beautiful. I love how WSJ picks the lowest salaried specialties and uses it as a comparison. Even better is comparing a suburban dentist to an urban family doctor. Talk about an article funded by the ADA 🙄
 
although it's slightly cliched, i'm gonna have to say that at least as a physician, you're helping people stay alive and healthy. that mercedes must be pretty nice to make up for making a living doing unnecassary $30,000 smile make-overs.

but that said, the article has some truth. a family friend is a cpa and does the taxes for a local cosmitic denitist who made 600k+ last year.
 
I see all these posts about dentists making more than PCPs. So what? I mean after all, im only going into medicine for the bling 🙄
But, if money is your chief concern, go for dentistry, or whatever makes it for you.
 
OnMyWayThere said:
On top of all that, 4 years and you're out as a general dentist that can do those $30,000 procedures talked about... 😱

Hey guys can you stop post things about dentists here in the medical student forums. You will start a war between dentists and doctors . Dentists stop posting here..
Thanks
 
Another important factor is that dentists begin earning much earlier - there is no comparable residency training. That means that dentists reach their income ceiling sooner - 3-7 years of productivity that the physician will never see.

Moreover, I think that dentistry school tuition usually costs less than medical school. Compounded annually, that might be worth another year of income.
 
carrigallen said:
there is no comparable residency training

Of course there isn't. If they couldn't cut it on the MCAT, how could they possibly understand the complicated physiology and treatment options available for the whole body? Dentistry is a great field, because the med school rejects can't do much harm if they're stuck within the oral cavity. So its a good arrangement for everyone. 👍
 
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Fantasy Sports said:
Of course there isn't. If they couldn't cut it on the MCAT, how could they possibly understand the complicated physiology and treatment options available for the whole body? Dentistry is a great field, because the med school rejects can't do much harm if they're stuck within the oral cavity. So its a good arrangement for everyone. 👍

RE: this post and anything like it is just poor taste and a bad sport.

If you are going into med for money, you may just be disapointed. If you go in to any profession for the money only you will not be happy.

Find something you like.. and then find a way to make money doing it.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Of course there isn't. If they couldn't cut it on the MCAT, how could they possibly understand the complicated physiology and treatment options available for the whole body? Dentistry is a great field, because the med school rejects can't do much harm if they're stuck within the oral cavity. So its a good arrangement for everyone. 👍

🙄

grow up.
 
stoic said:
🙄

grow up.

One good turn deserves another, eh? Perhaps you would like to roll over for malpractice lawyers after taking crap from dentists? Maybe politicians next?

I think it would be in your best interest to realize why someone would post something like this in the allopathic forum, and then realize why a response like mine is appropriate.

Or, we can just take it up the bunghole from another group of punks. Seems like you prefer the it that way, others of us don't.

Hmm, but to appease you fine:

"Oh please lawyers, dentists, politicians, optometrists, and everyone else who makes surreptituous posts attempting to denigrate medicine on the MD forums, oh please PLEASE be gentle with us poor medical souls. I turn my other cheek for thee! Please continue to insult medicine, and not be called out as you should be as stoic has proclaimed. Hooray for taking it up the bunghole!"

:laugh:

Honestly, if I went to the DO board and said "MDs make more than DOs" I would get flamed. And guess what... I would DESERVE it. And frankly, the OP deserves it here.

In the infamous words of the Underarmour commercial. WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE! :laugh:

And frankly, if all of us rolled over like you seem to want us to do stoic, we would probably all be working for HMOs or trial lawyers by now. 👎
 
Fantasy Sports said:
One good turn deserves another, eh? Perhaps you would like to roll over for malpractice lawyers after taking crap from dentists? Maybe politicians next?

I think it would be in your best interest to realize why someone would post something like this in the allopathic forum, and then realize why a response like mine is appropriate.

Or, we can just take it up the bunghole from another group of punks. Seems like you prefer the it that way, others of us don't.

Hmm, but to appease you fine:

"Oh please lawyers, dentists, politicians, optometrists, and everyone else who makes surreptituous posts attempting to denigrate medicine on the MD forums, oh please PLEASE be gentle with us poor medical souls. I turn my other cheek for thee! Please continue to insult medicine, and not be called out as you should be as stoic has proclaimed. Hooray for taking it up the bunghole!"

:laugh:

Honestly, if I went to the DO board and said "MDs make more than DOs" I would get flamed. And guess what... I would DESERVE it. And frankly, the OP deserves it here.

In the infamous words of the Underarmour commercial. WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE! :laugh:

And frankly, if all of us rolled over like you seem to want us to do stoic, we would probably all be working for HMOs or trial lawyers by now. 👎

oh yea, calling other professionals names and questioning their intelligence really does a lot bolster our position as physicians.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
Of course there isn't. If they couldn't cut it on the MCAT, how could they possibly understand the complicated physiology and treatment options available for the whole body? Dentistry is a great field, because the med school rejects can't do much harm if they're stuck within the oral cavity. So its a good arrangement for everyone. 👍
That's very uncalled for. Believe it or not, many people go into dentistry whose GPAs are higher than many medical students... and they'd do just fine on the MCAT. You try taking the perception part of the DAT. I am absolutely sure you would be in the lowest %tile. Get off your ego trip and have some respect for other health professionals.

And why does the OP deserve to get flamed? He/she is not making any false statements as you claimed he/she did.
 
shut the hell up. Fantasy Sports is absolutely right. its pantywaists like you that have for too long dominated our profession.

are there people who do better on the MCAT than the DAT. yes. but the overwhelmign majority of people who do well on the MCAt would ace the DAT. I looked at some of the biology questions for DAT, they weren't harder than a basic high shcool biology level. i looked at perception too, and it easy too. just simple games.

i have a great respect for dentists, and everything they do for my teeth. hell, my uncles a dentist and he's brilliant. he could easily have become a doctor. but you can't ignore statistics, and the numbers clearly show that med school is far and away, the most competitive field to get into, at least intellectually.
 
stoic said:
oh yea, calling other professionals names and questioning their intelligence really does a lot bolster our position as physicians.

Listen, its not like Im sitting here going to the DO board or the OD board or the PA board or the RN board and posting crap about how doctors make more than them (and trust me, I could find an article/data that prove that).

Its absolutely fantastic that someone is flaming the MD board in an attempt to stoke their egos, I try to bring them back down, and you flame ME?

Give me a break. Think clearly for a minute. The OP is obviously trying to stroke his ego in some form of fashion, and you not only condone this, but don't even bother to defend your profession!

Whether you like it or not stoic, you need people like me who are willing to fight against the flamers, or the malpractice lawyers, or the dirty HMOs trying to cut our salaries so their CEOs get profits. And its a shame you don't realize that just because you're apathetic to those who try to demean our profession, overt or otherwise, doesn't mean the problem is going to go away.

So fine, sit idly by and watch the dentists make underhanded comments about doctors, or while DOs demand a full and equal match into the MD match but won't allow MDs to match into their programs, or while optometrists take surgical priviledges. This is nothing compared to that, but based on your responses to this thread, I can tell you care little about fighting for our profession. And unfortunately, sitting idly has been the problem with our profession over the last few decades...

Its your choice.
 
OnMyWayThere said:
That's very uncalled for. Believe it or not, many people go into dentistry whose GPAs are higher than many medical students... and they'd do just fine on the MCAT. You try taking the perception part of the DAT. I am absolutely sure you would be in the lowest %tile. Get off your ego trip and have some respect for other health professionals.

And why does the OP deserve to get flamed? He/she is not making any false statements as you claimed he/she did.

Wow, you're not even in med school yet so you don't even know what this is about. Come back in a few years when you've had to deal with real healthcare workers.

And maybe if you took a look at the pre-dentistry forum, you might notice that the third most active thread is called "The Under 3.0 Club"

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=28491&goto=lastpost

And no, I dont have respect for dentists who come over to the MEDICAL forum and try to take an ego trip off an article comparing the salary of a suburban dentist to an urban doctor.

Honestly, some of you dental apologists are pathetic. You do realize the whole reason this thread is an allo is so they can get an ego trip off of it. Im just cutting them down to size. Sorry if the truth hurts, but hey, if all you docs/future docs are going to do is take it up the bunghole from anyone who denigrates the profession, well, SOMEONE is going to have to defend us (Im speaking in a general sense, this thread is hardly the issue, but your attitudes tell me you could care less when people try to diss medicine).

So gimme a break and stop feeding their egos... have some pride for god sakes.
 
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