Depressing reality check: The disposable academic

[Neuropsych2be]

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An excerpt from an article in The Economist at http://www.economist.com/node/17723223 about the reality of the Ph.D., the grim employment prospects, the uselessness of it, and the trap in which bright motivated students get caught. Think about this the next time people whine about "mid-levels" with master's degrees encroaching on doctoral level earnings. The Ph.D. does not provide a premium over a masters in most fields if this is to be believed.


"PhD graduates do at least earn more than those with a bachelor's degree. A study in the Journal of Higher Education Policy and Management by Bernard Casey shows that British men with a bachelor's degree earn 14% more than those who could have gone to university but chose not to. The earnings premium for a PhD is 26%. But the premium for a master's degree, which can be accomplished in as little as one year, is almost as high, at 23%. In some subjects the premium for a PhD vanishes entirely. PhDs in maths and computing, social sciences and languages earn no more than those with master's degrees. The premium for a PhD is actually smaller than for a master's degree in engineering and technology, architecture and education. Only in medicine, other sciences, and business and financial studies is it high enough to be worthwhile. Over all subjects, a PhD commands only a 3% premium over a master's degree."

 

[Student4Life0]

I guess I don't really know that much about this, seeing as how I'm still at the masters level. However, I just find it hard to believe that the pay difference is so slim. Could this be true? I have looked at jobs for MA level practioners in my state. The salary is roughly $35,000, and I live in a state with a high cost of living.

 

[FadedC]

I guess I don't really know that much about this, seeing as how I'm still at the masters level. However, I just find it hard to believe that the pay difference is so slim. Could this be true? I have looked at jobs for MA level practioners in my state. The salary is roughly $35,000, and I live in a state with a high cost of living.

Well the article isn't about pracitioners at all. It's about academic phds in non psychological fields. I think the point of the OP is that while things aren't great for us, they could be much worse.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There are a few degrees that skew this: MBA, MPH, etc. It definitely is concerning considering the amount of time we invest, but it is a harsh reality.

 

[psich]

...This is indeed depressing.

 

[deadmau5]

I understand where this article is coming from but I believe they are lumping a whole bunch of different disciplines together. Coming out of a program as a clinical psychologist, a school psychologist, a counseling psychologist -- we will be much better off... The premium for these degrees must be higher. There are jobs for us and clinical psychologists get their license and can open their own practice.

Still, yes, it is concerning that say ~60 students are currently in a certain grad school that you want to get into and these people will probably already have jobs when you enter the workforce, thus the number of job openings will remain tight at universities.

 

[somedude14]

Well, it is known that masters and bachelors level providers do not produce significant psychotherapuetic outcomes than doctorate level providers. So in the field of clinical psychology it makes sense. But as others pointed out, the article lumps a bunch of different fields together which mitigates the point.

As someone hoping to go into academia, it is depressing but its nothing new. It's hard to make lots of dough in research and faculty positions are hard to come by. But for me, its more of the lifestyle than the money and job earnings. I'm much more interested in research than therapy/assessment or any other clinical intervention.

Additionally, for those who get PhD in the sciences there are beginning to be diverse more job openings in industry and other places opposed to working at Universities.

 

[lizzo76]

Interesting, but not at all surprising. But, as others have said, it seems to lump a lot of fields together, and confuse a few things. For the most part, they're looking at PhDs who work in academia (and it's probably the case that most PhDs either work in some role in academia, whether it's tenure-track, non-tenure track, teaching, research, or something like full-time library assistant, when they need to pay the bills, want to stay in the comfort of academia, but can't find a better job, although some are in industry.) So, the average pay for someone with a PhD is largely the result of the salaries in academia or the salaries in lowly support staff roles. But, the average salaries for those without a bachelors degree, with only a bachelors degree, and with a masters degree would be based on a much wider range of jobs - any job, not mainly jobs in academia. Most PhDs want to stay in their field in some way, while others - even those with masters degrees - are more mobile. Adding to the mobility is a lower risk of seeming "overqualified" for jobs. It would have been more useful if they compared, say, average salaries at various educational levels for those who are working in their field of study, or for those who are working in their field of study in academia, or something.

I don't think the masters-level pay is only skewed by MBAs and MPHs, though. Look at even a MLIS - masters in library and information studies. You can easily start out in the mid-$40s or low $50s at a good university in a city. I was working as a librarian, which people would imagine would pay very little, and I was doing pretty well. I know that there are only a few advanced degrees I could pursue at this point which would be worth it, money-wise, especially if you look at where I would have been in my librarian position in several years, when a new degree is finished. The same would even be true of many people with a masters in education.

Also - in comparing masters pay with PhD pay - you're often comparing practice with teaching. My sister, for instance, was in a PhD program for civil engineering. She left with her masters - she said that the PhD was really for teaching, and all she needed to work was the masters degree... and the practicing engineers usually make more than professors of engineering.

 

[Ollie123]

Yeah - not the greatest news in the world, but also not surprising or new. As others have said, there are some definite problems with it though - there are undoubtedly many areas where academic pay is much much lower than industry. Technical fields and business are especially notorious for this - the successful executive has little need for a PhD in business, and is already earning more than any 2-3 faculty members combined. I'm not sure how much these skew the overall statistics, but it is worth noting.

I also think the author of the article is somewhat naive, since he implied the market for lawyers is good. We have some folks here who are likely more familiar with it than I am, but it was my plan before I shifted into psychology as an undergrad so I did look into it somewhat. My understanding is that if you go to a "top" school and do well in law it is pretty good, but those who do not are often in an even worse position than PhD grads since they generally have a ton of debt on top of a difficult market. Medicine and business are a different story though it is important to keep in mind that we are also in a field that is much more diverse and offers many more options than a degree in say "Greek History" would likely offer. Even the pharmaceutical industry hires clinical psychologists (and probably pays a heavenly sum compared to most jobs) if anyone feels like going that route😉

I do get nervous about finding an academic job, but I look at others who have done it recently and I think I can be at least equally competitive with many of them by the time I graduate. It may take a post-doc, but fortunately we do not typically see people doing the 5-10 year post-docs that people need in the basic sciences in this field. I want reasonable pay for my training, but don't require oodles and am more concerned with not being able to do what I want to do than the exact dollar figure I'm making, and the "perks" of the academic lifestyle are simply a great fit for me. Some of my coursework has focused on how to fit into the changing academic climate and the increasing need to "justify your existence" in such settings, and it has been incredibly valuable and eye-opening. It is certainly not the easiest path to success, but I'm willing to take the risk since I think it will be the most rewarding when I get there.

 

[roubs]

I don't think this is depressing news at all. You should not be getting a Ph.D. because you want to make six figures, you should be getting it because it is the degree which allows you to have the job that you really want.

Most of us getting Ph.D.s are bright enough to have gone into business and raked in the dough if we thought that would be enough in life.

Since starting grad school I've been surprised at how many students have inflated salary expectations vs. the published data (aka, reality). Pressure to publish notwithstanding, getting an academic job with a Ph.D. is about (somewhat) being your own boss, setting your own schedule, pursuing what you want to pursue, having summers off etc.

Even in the helping professions there are programs that result in jobs that make double the money (and they're easier to get into!😛), we call them medical schools.

 

[lizzo76]

Overall, med schools have higher acceptance rates than Clinical Psych PhD programs, but the requirements for admission are much more difficult... (not knocking clinical psych!) 🙂

 

[edieb]

Overall, med schools have higher acceptance rates than Clinical Psych PhD programs, but the requirements for admission are much more difficult... (not knocking clinical psych!) 🙂

Who says the prereqs are more difficult? I know a lot of the prereqs for my program (Physiological Psych, Quant Methods 1 and 2)were as difficult as the premed sequence which I also took.

I think a lot of ppl major in psych as an undergrad mistakenly say it is an EASY major. However, it is only easy if you plan on skating by with a "C" average. If you want to get into a solid PhD program, the road to get there is VERY difficult.

 

[Student4Life0]

Overall, med schools have higher acceptance rates than Clinical Psych PhD programs, but the requirements for admission are much more difficult... (not knocking clinical psych!) 🙂

Yeah, that seems pretty inaccurate from what I have heard.

 

[roubs]

Who says the prereqs are more difficult? I know a lot of the prereqs for my program (Physiological Psych, Quant Methods 1 and 2)were as difficult as the premed sequence which I also took.

I think a lot of ppl major in psych as an undergrad mistakenly say it is an EASY major. However, it is only easy if you plan on skating by with a "C" average. If you want to get into a solid PhD program, the road to get there is VERY difficult.

Exactly. Getting As in all of your undergrad psych isn't something done easily considering how competitive you have to make yourself for Ph.D. admission.

I took the Pre-med sequence and ended up changing my mind and going for a clinical psych program, I wouldn't say one was harder just b/c it required more memorization time. Sitting down and trying to have original thoughts on a topic is hard too, just in a different way.

 

[loveoforganic]

God not this again.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Well the article isn't about pracitioners at all. It's about academic phds in non psychological fields. I think the point of the OP is that while things aren't great for us, they could be much worse.

Yep!! Things could be so much worse for psychologists.

 

[O Gurl]

Overall, med schools have higher acceptance rates than Clinical Psych PhD programs, but the requirements for admission are much more difficult... (not knocking clinical psych!) 🙂

Depends on what is difficult for you. Some would argue the undergraduate coursework for pre-med is harder (genetics, organic chem, etc.). Others will argue that the overall road to admission in a clinical psych program is harder because it requires more than good grades and a high standardized test score. It also requires prior experience in research. Also the numbers of students admitted are smaller. So there are pluses and minuses on both sides.


Anyhoot, as for this article, I am not particularly bothered by it. It is confounded and not terribly pertinent to the world of psychology where doctoral level professionals clearly earn more and are qualified for more varied positions than master's level clnicians.

 

[starsinnight]

It is definitely a grim job market out there.

After completing a MHC program and passively searching for a job for 6 months (as I did PhD apps), there isn't much out there, but the pay is worse off than if you worked as a retail manager at the local mall. I've continued to work the same psychology research job I have had for 4 years now, getting paid less than if I worked somewhere with a high school diploma - for the love of the field. I also watch sadly as my classmates hunt for jobs with no luck except the overworked, burned-out, community psych job offers, which some have taken and sadly told me they hate themselves and their jobs now.

And as I've been applying to doctorate programs, with high hopes of a better life - I read in the last APAGS GradPsych magazine that the start pay for a psychologist out of grad school is $40,000, not much more than the start pay for a MHC $35,00 (if one can find one). Compared to my friends that have less than a masters degree and make way more than this in business, marketing, retail, nursing, teaching ... it definitely is a sad realization. Especially when you see all your friends and classmates staying at the same job they had before school - as a nurse, teacher, receptionist.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

And as I've been applying to doctorate programs, with high hopes of a better life - I read in the last APAGS GradPsych magazine that the start pay for a psychologist out of grad school is $40,000, not much more than the start pay for a MHC $35,00 (if one can find one).

It definitely depends where you look. Everyone always talks about starting in the VA system ($60k+) or academic medicine ($60k-$75k+), though there are other hospital jobs that can work too. I don't know about counseling centers or CMHCs, so I'll defer to others on that. Hospital fellowships typically make $40-$50k+, which isn't horrible because of the extra training, but I'd definitely be wary if all people find is $50k AFTER a fellowship or decent post-doc.

 

[aequitasveritas]

as a psych assistant I am generating enough money per the hours I work to make roughly $130,000 my first year licensed. It can be done. A colleague of mine actualized this estimate her first year out.

AV

 

[edieb]

I think you have to be very careful when interpreting the income figures people state on here. For example, one poster said that psychologists make $70K after post-doc but neglected to say that she lived in NYC.

I have just finished my Ph.D. in a university-based clinical program. I now work at a V.A. I make $58K. Next year I will be making $68 K and the year after I basically max out at $80K. I then experience several SMALL increases every year afer. I almost started a post doc with Marsha Linehan that paid less than $40K in Seattle. This is less than a medical resident would make. This should show you how wonderful psychology is.

Another thing to consider is the cost of licensure. With study materials, it can easily cost $2000+. So while you'rle you're making that $35K, imagine having to fork that kind of money out.

If you want to do mental health, I recommend NP or M.D. They can seek extra training and legally do everything a Ph.D. can (and training is easily available), people will be begging you to work for them, and you will be making good money. The future of these professions is very bright. Psychology's is dim and growing dimmer.

As for the last post: Be careful when someone says as a psych assistant they are making as much as a physician. If it sounds too good to be true,...

 

[cara susanna]

Ahh, this forum can always be counted on to provide motivation throughout the long, grueling work of grad school. 😉

 

[erg923]

What is exactly is a psych assistant? This is something a ph.d psychologist does? How come I have never heard of that title?

 

[edieb]

What is exactly is a psych assistant? This is something a ph.d psychologist does? How come I have never heard of that title?

It's a person with a clinical psych masters

 

[aequitasveritas]

I think you have to be very careful when interpreting the income figures people state on here. For example, one poster said that psychologists make $70K after post-doc but neglected to say that she lived in NYC.

I have just finished my Ph.D. in a university-based clinical program. I now work at a V.A. I make $58K. Next year I will be making $68 K and the year after I basically max out at $80K. I then experience several SMALL increases every year afer. I almost started a post doc with Marsha Linehan that paid less than $40K in Seattle. This is less than a medical resident would make. This should show you how wonderful psychology is.

Another thing to consider is the cost of licensure. With study materials, it can easily cost $2000+. So while you'rle you're making that $35K, imagine having to fork that kind of money out.

If you want to do mental health, I recommend NP or M.D. They can seek extra training and legally do everything a Ph.D. can (and training is easily available), people will be begging you to work for them, and you will be making good money. The future of these professions is very bright. Psychology's is dim and growing dimmer.

As for the last post: Be careful when someone says as a psych assistant they are making as much as a physician. If it sounds too good to be true,...

I stated that I am generating that amount of money....meaning that if I expanded the days I work into a 5 day work week I would make 130k. You don't have to believe me but it's a fact.