Interesting article on students with clinical depression who do and do not identify as depressed/having depression

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

futureapppsy2

Assistant professor
Volunteer Staff
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2008
Messages
7,645
Reaction score
6,388

Thoughts? The author's take away is that we should perhaps not encourage labeling/diagnosis of depression, as that may lead to less engagement in positive coping behaviors.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Interesting piece. Not terribly surprising given other findings in trauma work. For example, the issue of CISD actually increasing rates of PTSD sx, or that the perception of whether an experience was "traumatic" being a key factor in development of symptoms. Beyond that, we can go into the whole diagnosis threat and iatrogenesis literature.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I find myself divided between concerns like learned helplessness and diagnosis threat from emphasizing labeling/diagnosis, and being concerned that this may end up promoting masking and denial among those who really do need treatment above self-care. Having worked with college students with SPMI, many of them could cope surprisingly well with pretty severe symptoms until they reached a breaking point and everything came crashing down. The literature is starting to show this issue with high-functioning autism--people mask well and look like they are doing okay until the stress from masking overwhelms them and manifests in deleterious physical and mental health effects.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I find myself divided between concerns like learned helplessness and diagnosis threat from emphasizing labeling/diagnosis, and being concerned that this may end up promoting masking and denial among those who really do need treatment above self-care. Having worked with college students with SPMI, many of them could cope surprisingly well with pretty severe symptoms until they reached a breaking up and everything came crashing down. The literature is starting to show this issue with high-functioning autism--people mask well and look like they are doing okay until the stress from masking overwhelms them and manifests in deleterious physical and mental health effects.

Yeah, interesting tightrope between trusting in resilience and promoting awareness and intervention. And, the issue is all over the place in different areas of MH. in some areas, we are probably behind, under utilizing awareness and outreach. In other areas, like the trauma world, we've vastly overcorrected to the point that everything is "trauma," all "trauma" causes irreparable damage, and almost every other MH disorder is obviously attributable to past trauma.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I find myself divided between concerns like learned helplessness and diagnosis threat from emphasizing labeling/diagnosis, and being concerned that this may end up promoting masking and denial among those who really do need treatment above self-care. Having worked with college students with SPMI, many of them could cope surprisingly well with pretty severe symptoms until they reached a breaking point and everything came crashing down. The literature is starting to show this issue with high-functioning autism--people mask well and look like they are doing okay until the stress from masking overwhelms them and manifests in deleterious physical and mental health effects.

This is my exp. with this as well. I worry that 'avoiding labels' inadvertently leads to a bootstrap mentality (i.e., 'I should be able to self-care my way out of depression). Self-labeling is also measured by question: "Do you have depression?" which could be subject to multiple interpretations in a college student population given the misinformation about MH that exists in general.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
This is my exp. with this as well. I worry that 'avoiding labels' inadvertently leads to a bootstrap mentality (i.e., 'I should be able to self-care my way out of depression). Self-labeling is also measured by question: "Do you have depression?" which could be subject to multiple interpretations in a college student population given the misinformation about MH that exists in general.

This is one of those things where the people who really need to hear it won't and vice versa. Just like 'don't repeatedly hit on people who clearly don't want to talk to you' is advice some people desperately need to take heed of while at the same time, for other people it leads to 'i must never speak to anyone who does not explicitly invite me to speak to them and I need to compulsively review all of my interactions in my life to determine whether I might have unintentionally harassed somebody.'
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
This is one of those things where the people who really need to hear it won't and vice versa. Just like 'don't repeatedly hit on people who clearly don't want to talk to you' is advice some people desperately need to take heed of while at the same time, for other people it leads to 'i must never speak to anyone who does not explicitly invite me to speak to them and I need to compulsively review all of my interactions in my life to determine whether I might have unintentionally harassed somebody.'

Did you see the effect sizes from studies of the D.A.R.E. program with highly conscientiousness, wealthy children? I wonder why we ever took it away.
 
Did you see the effect sizes from studies of the D.A.R.E. program with highly conscientiousness, wealthy children? I wonder why we ever took it away.
Could you share more about that? One of my professors from undergrad was involved in that research and development f the program and he had some strong opinions bout how their research findings were misunderstood and misused.
 
I find myself divided between concerns like learned helplessness and diagnosis threat from emphasizing labeling/diagnosis, and being concerned that this may end up promoting masking and denial among those who really do need treatment above self-care. Having worked with college students with SPMI, many of them could cope surprisingly well with pretty severe symptoms until they reached a breaking point and everything came crashing down. The literature is starting to show this issue with high-functioning autism--people mask well and look like they are doing okay until the stress from masking overwhelms them and manifests in deleterious physical and mental health effects.

We objectively know that people fully recover from most mood disorders. What is the difference between coping and masking? the diagnostic criteria requires impairment or significant distress.
 
We objectively know that people fully recover from most mood disorders. What is the difference between coping and masking? the diagnostic criteria requires impairment or significant distress.
People can be experiencing significant impairment and/or distress and still mask or downplay their depression to others, though, at least to some degree. Many people experiencing MDEs may have episodes that eventually remit on their own or with self-care, but many may require or benefit from active medical/psychological care, in terms of reducing illness duration and severity and sequalae from untreated illness. Major depression has very high morbidity and non-negligible molarity associated with it, and there are good reasons to treat it or at least have good triage around treatment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
People can be experiencing significant impairment and/or distress and still mask or downplay their depression to others, though, at least to some degree. Many people experiencing MDEs may have episodes that eventually remit on their own or with self-care, but many may require or benefit from active medical/psychological care, in terms of reducing illness duration and severity and sequalae from untreated illness. Major depression has very high morbidity and non-negligible molarity associated with it, and there are good reasons to treat it or at least have good triage around treatment.
But what is the difference between coping and masking?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Then how is "masking" any less mature than "suppression"? Because the latter is one of the mature defense mechanisms.
From a cursory overview of this article, I'm interpreting masking as the same thing as suppression. Not sure if there is a distinct difference between the two. My guess is that masking has been adopted by the autism community to describe their specific experiences, but I'm almost entirely unknowledgeable about this topic and providing my initial thoughts. doi: 10.1089/aut.2020.0083
 
But what is the difference between coping and masking?
Masking can be coping, but masking is largely about regulating one’s presentation to meet a certain standard. We all mask to some degree—think “work personality,” “customer service voice,” etc. The issues with autism comes with expecting people to do a high degree of masking almost all of the time—like having to be in “work mode” any time you’re around or interacting with other people at all, which can lead to physical and mental exhaustion. With mental illness, people can often mask quite well-they get up, do their job, go to class, maybe even participate in social activities and try not to let their symptoms show. And this can have a degree of behavioral activation that’s helpful for sure—but for a subset of people, that isn’t going to be enough, and they are going to be looking like they are doing pretty well while still having considerable symptoms/internal distress. But because the goal of masking is to “seem normal,” that often gets overlooked, as does the mental energy masking requires. Whereas coping is about finding ways to reduce distress/impairment, masking is about finding ways to keep other people from noticing your distress or impairment—there’s overlap but it’s not 1:1.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Masking can be coping, but masking is largely about regulating one’s presentation to meet a certain standard. We all mask to some degree—think “work personality,” “customer service voice,” etc. The issues with autism comes with expecting people to do a high degree of masking almost all of the time—like having to be in “work mode” any time you’re around or interacting with other people at all, which can lead to physical and mental exhaustion. With mental illness, people can often mask quite well-they get up, do their job, go to class, maybe even participate in social activities and try not to let their symptoms show. And this can have a degree of behavioral activation that’s helpful for sure—but for a subset of people, that isn’t going to be enough, and they are going to be looking like they are doing pretty well while still having considerable symptoms/internal distress. But because the goal of masking is to “seem normal,” that often gets overlooked, as does the mental energy masking requires. Whereas coping is about finding ways to reduce distress/impairment, masking is about finding ways to keep other people from noticing your distress or impairment—there’s overlap but it’s not 1:1.
1) Symptoms are what one reports. Signs are what can be observed.

2) I think you’re conflating distress and impairment.

3) By this logic, assertiveness training is masking.
 
I find it kind of annoying how much psychiatry rarifies symptom counts as if measurement error in said counts doesn't really exist. It would be interesting to see how much a reliable measure of masking influences, say, PHQ-9 or SRS-2 scores. That's probably been done, but I'm too lazy to look right now.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I'll bite- even though I believe that your numerical-list-based-responses of the form of "1)state tangentially related fact; 2) potentially mislabel or mis-attribute behavior of another poster: 3) offer a potentially purposefully over-reaching analogy are as much a form of self-stimulation as they are an attempt to actually further the argument or- gasp- elicit information that might change your views on or understanding of the topic.
1) Symptoms are what one reports. Signs are what can be observed
Yep, that's what the intro to psych texts state, and it can be a useful distinction. However, your statement- both by itself and combined with your additional list items, does not clearly contradict or support anything that @futureapppsy2 said
2) I think you’re conflating distress and impairment.
See above. Additionally, @futureapppsy2 's use of the forward slash ("/") and conjunction "or" between "distress" and "impairment" suggests that they are aware that "distress" and "impairment" are different concepts and, further, that @futureapppsy2 has purposefully chosen to highlight the effect of masking on both of these concepts, rather than inadvertently conflating the two.
3) By this logic, assertiveness training is masking.
I believe this to be a faulty analogy, but I suppose it really depend on how you view/label what is changed by "assertiveness training." If, like me, you view assertiveness training as means of skill training to address a skills deficits (i.e., poorly developed or absent abilities to be assertive), than the analogy doesn't fit, and the the future assertive behavior of the trainee is not "masking" any ongoing symptoms. If, however, you view assertiveness training and allowing someone to continue to be passive or have an overall perception of themselves being non-worthy of being stood up for or having their needs made know- despite their own behavior to the contrary- then it might be an apt analogy. That does seem to be a bit of a stretch.

In the case of masking and ASD, we can use the behavior of repetitive hand flapping as an example. Repetitive hand flapping are often displayed by individuals with an ASD diagnosis. You can call it a symptom or a sign, but a that's a semantic distinction that is not relevant to masking in this case. A common historical (and current) view of hand-flapping was that it was a potential impairment, as it may serve to distinguish the individual from those without an ASD diagnosis, can be disruptive to others, can interfere with learning, and represented a "maladaptive" response either to stressors or the absence of other stimuli. As such, it (and other similar repetitive behaviors) were/are common targets for reductive treatments.

Over the past decade (and much more so over the past 5 years), we (clinicians who work with people diagnosed with ASD) have done a much better job of actually listening to the client that we work with. Some of this is a change in our own behaviors, but much of the credit goes to those individuals who made sure to both literally and colloquially speak loud enough that we were forced to listen and actually hear what they were saying. Turns out that many of those individuals identified hand-flapping as a crucial strategy that allowed them to better access their current environments, rather than escape from them. Others said that they just really liked how it felt, and the rest of us would too if we just gave it enough of a try. Many said that they either weren't overly bothered by what others though of their hand flapping (and many others- when actually asked- confirmed that they weren't really bothered that much by it either). The difficult part for us (the clinicians) was hearing that our well-intentioned and well-crafted interventions to reduce the frequency of hand-flapping- even the ones that involved high levels of reinforcing other alternative behaviors- were seen by many as hurtful and harmful. The individuals used hand-flapping for various functions that could not be adequately addressed with other behaviors. Further, many said that reducing hand flapping was not a treatment priority for them, but rather seemed to be done because it was a goal of others, such as parents or teachers, based on assumptions about its negative impacts, rather than any actual objective assessment of those impacts. Additionally, many reported an actual increase in the overall frequency of hand flapping, as they would either remove themselves from social environments so they could flap (e.g., go to bathroom), or flap more than usual when they were naturally in non-social environments. In both of these case, individuals reported being more distressed, less engaged, and less able to benefit from the social environments in which hand flapping was discouraged. In summary, targeting hand flapping for reduction often led to increased distress, which contributed to increased impairment (e.g., not being able to fully access and learn in non-flapping environments), and did not always lead to less flapping and may have led to overall increases. These individuals stopped flapping in certain places not because it improved their quality of life, led to symptom reduction, etc., but rather to get others off their case and be allowed to participate in important social and learning environments, despite the increased distress it caused. That's masking. I'd say that a bit different from someone who did not have adequately developed self-assertion abilities learning to get their point across and needs met in a non-passive or non-aggressive manner.

The end result is that we (the clinicians) are much less likely to target hand-flapping for reduction, especially with younger children or others who do not have the ability or agency to consent to such interventions or report on their experiences with them (which makes our jobs easier, because those interventions were often very difficult and time-consuming, and typically interfered with the more universally agreed upon important stuff, such as teaching the ability to communicate your basic needs and desires). We also now do more parent and caregiver/teacher education about hand-flapping and why it is not a major focus or our treatment. We have also recognized that there will be needs for individuals with ASD diagnoses to assimilate into the typical environment, but hand-flapping is best dealt with by accomodation. Acknowledging and understanding this type of masking has made us more aware of the need to make sure our interventions have true social validity, rather than just conform to the individual clinicians' or caregivers' views about what is socially "appropriate." Masking is- IMHO and the less humble opinions of many others- a very important area of consideration and study for anyone involved in a clinical, educational, or caregiving capacity with individuals diagnosed with ASD. More importantly, it is an important area of understanding and self-advocacy for those same individuals diagnosed with ASD.

TLDR- come on man, you know what they were saying and purposeful obfuscation and arguendo does not lead to clarification or edification.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
I'll bite- even though I believe that your numerical-list-based-responses of the form of "1)state tangentially related fact; 2) potentially mislabel or mis-attribute behavior of another poster: 3) offer a potentially purposefully over-reaching analogy are as much a form of self-stimulation as they are an attempt to actually further the argument or- gasp- elicit information that might change your views on or understanding of the topic.

Yep, that's what the intro to psych texts state, and it can be a useful distinction. However, your statement- both by itself and combined with your additional list items, does not clearly contradict or support anything that @futureapppsy2 said

See above. Additionally, @futureapppsy2 's use of the forward slash ("/") and conjunction "or" between "distress" and "impairment" suggests that they are aware that "distress" and "impairment" are different concepts and, further, that @futureapppsy2 has purposefully chosen to highlight the effect of masking on both of these concepts, rather than inadvertently conflating the two.

I believe this to be a faulty analogy, but I suppose it really depend on how you view/label what is changed by "assertiveness training." If, like me, you view assertiveness training as means of skill training to address a skills deficits (i.e., poorly developed or absent abilities to be assertive), than the analogy doesn't fit, and the the future assertive behavior of the trainee is not "masking" any ongoing symptoms. If, however, you view assertiveness training and allowing someone to continue to be passive or have an overall perception of themselves being non-worthy of being stood up for or having their needs made know- despite their own behavior to the contrary- then it might be an apt analogy. That does seem to be a bit of a stretch.

In the case of masking and ASD, we can use the behavior of repetitive hand flapping as an example. Repetitive hand flapping are often displayed by individuals with an ASD diagnosis. You can call it a symptom or a sign, but a that's a semantic distinction that is not relevant to masking in this case. A common historical (and current) view of hand-flapping was that it was a potential impairment, as it may serve to distinguish the individual from those without an ASD diagnosis, can be disruptive to others, can interfere with learning, and represented a "maladaptive" response either to stressors or the absence of other stimuli. As such, it (and other similar repetitive behaviors) were/are common targets for reductive treatments.

Over the past decade (and much more so over the past 5 years), we (clinicians who work with people diagnosed with ASD) have done a much better job of actually listening to the client that we work with. Some of this is a change in our own behaviors, but much of the credit goes to those individuals who made sure to both literally and colloquially speak loud enough that we were forced to listen and actually hear what they were saying. Turns out that many of those individuals identified hand-flapping as a crucial strategy that allowed them to better access their current environments, rather than escape from them. Others said that they just really liked how it felt, and the rest of us would too if we just gave it enough of a try. Many said that they either weren't overly bothered by what others though of their hand flapping (and many others- when actually asked- confirmed that they weren't really bothered that much by it either). The difficult part for us (the clinicians) was hearing that our well-intentioned and well-crafted interventions to reduce the frequency of hand-flapping- even the ones that involved high levels of reinforcing other alternative behaviors- were seen by many as hurtful and harmful. The individuals used hand-flapping for various functions that could not be adequately addressed with other behaviors. Further, many said that reducing hand flapping was not a treatment priority for them, but rather seemed to be done because it was a goal of others, such as parents or teachers, based on assumptions about its negative impacts, rather than any actual objective assessment of those impacts. Additionally, many reported an actual increase in the overall frequency of hand flapping, as they would either remove themselves from social environments so they could flap (e.g., go to bathroom), or flap more than usual when they were naturally in non-social environments. In both of these case, individuals reported being more distressed, less engaged, and less able to benefit from the social environments in which hand flapping was discouraged. In summary, targeting hand flapping for reduction often led to increased distress, which contributed to increased impairment (e.g., not being able to fully access and learn in non-flapping environments), and did not always lead to less flapping and may have led to overall increases. These individuals stopped flapping in certain places not because it improved their quality of life, led to symptom reduction, etc., but rather to get others off their case and be allowed to participate in important social and learning environments, despite the increased distress it caused. That's masking. I'd say that a bit different from someone who did not have adequately developed self-assertion abilities learning to get their point across and needs met in a non-passive or non-aggressive manner.

The end result is that we (the clinicians) are much less likely to target hand-flapping for reduction, especially with younger children or others who do not have the ability or agency to consent to such interventions or report on their experiences with them (which makes our jobs easier, because those interventions were often very difficult and time-consuming, and typically interfered with the more universally agreed upon important stuff, such as teaching the ability to communicate your basic needs and desires). We also now do more parent and caregiver/teacher education about hand-flapping and why it is not a major focus or our treatment. We have also recognized that there will be needs for individuals with ASD diagnoses to assimilate into the typical environment, but hand-flapping is best dealt with by accomodation. Acknowledging and understanding this type of masking has made us more aware of the need to make sure our interventions have true social validity, rather than just conform to the individual clinicians' or caregivers' views about what is socially "appropriate." Masking is- IMHO and the less humble opinions of many others- a very important area of consideration and study for anyone involved in a clinical, educational, or caregiving capacity with individuals diagnosed with ASD. More importantly, it is an important area of understanding and self-advocacy for those same individuals diagnosed with ASD.

TLDR- come on man, you know what they were saying and purposeful obfuscation and arguendo does not lead to clarification or edification.
1) The numerical thing is mostly because I am a poor writer, who works in a field where everything is numbered.

2) This isn't a ploy. That’s really not my purpose. I'll point out that your characterization of my questions basically follows your own accusation.

3) I am legitimately trying to understand the processional viewpoint of a lay concept. A concept, that I believe, is a threat to the field.

4) Terms have meaning. Masking is a lay concept, that seems to have a negative connotation. In the case of signs, decreasing pathological behaviors is likely a treatment goal. In diagnoses of deficits, such as ASD, it makes sense that decreasing the frequency of a behavior is not solving an underlying deficit. However, in affective diagnoses, the idea that masking is negative is a antithetical to the intervention literature. It doesn't follow the 1/4 smile literature, the CBT literature, the behavioral activation literature, or general behavioral literature. If we are using behavioral techniques to reduce signs and symptoms, aren't we essentially teaching people how to "mask"? If so, why is this negative? And what are the other options?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
4) Terms have meaning. Masking is a lay concept, that seems to have a negative connotation.
"Masking" as a term and concept (at least in regards to ASD) has increasingly appeared in the peer-reviewed literature, and thus it probably would now qualify as a professional term. As with many terms/concepts in psychology (especially relatively new areas of focus), definitions of masking are not always consistent and, as you have pointed out, there may be some overlap with other terms/concepts (such as "coping"). There are also "lay" perspectives and definitions that can differ from the professional definition. From a recent research article (The workplace masking experiences of autistic, non-autistic neurodivergent and neurotypical adults in the UK), masking is defined as "hiding or concealing one’s traits during social interactions." Note that the authors do suggest that it may be including a function in the definition (e.g., "in order to fit in" or "in order to avoid ostracization") may be important for future studies and understanding.

In the case of signs, decreasing pathological behaviors is likely a treatment goal.
This has been a big change in my field- Historically, things like hand flapping were consistently labeled as "pathological behaviors" and thus targets for reduction. It is now increasingly common to not put a default "pathological" label on every characteristic associated with ASD, and thus not- de facto- target them for reduction.
In diagnoses of deficits, such as ASD, it makes sense that decreasing the frequency of a behavior is not solving an underlying deficit. However, in affective diagnoses, the idea that masking is negative is a antithetical to the intervention literature. It doesn't follow the 1/4 smile literature, the CBT literature, the behavioral activation literature, or general behavioral literature.
Based on the article in the OP, there does seem to be a different "flavor" to what is going on with affective disorders. For example, with the current criteria for a Major Depressive Episode requiring that the symptoms " represent a change from previous functioning", it kind of goes against the "trait" part of the masking definition I provided above.
If we are using behavioral techniques to reduce signs and symptoms, aren't we essentially teaching people how to "mask"? If so, why is this negative?
If these signs/symptoms are truly causing undue harm or distress to the individual or others in their environment, the individual both desires and consents to interventions to reduce them, and there is empirical evidence that these interventions are not immediately or ultimately harmful in other ways, then I would argue that we are not actually teaching the individual to mask. However, if the signs/symptoms are not causing undue harm or distress to that individual or others and there is at least emerging evidence that our treatments are harmful in other ways, and the end result of the treatment is not an actual reduction in the sign/symptom, but rather a displacement of it to another time and place, it is at least a negative. If the sign/symptom is a relatively common and life-long behavior (e.g., repetitive body movements in individuals with ASD), then I'd say that meets the above definition of masking. If the individual does not have the ability or agency to self-advocate, consent, or clearly report on negative experiences and side effects of the treatment, we should be extra cautious. If many (not all, but at least some) individuals who experienced the treatment when they did not have this ability/agency at the time later- when they do have the ability and agency to do so- describe the treatment as harmful, report that they hid the target behavior despite the extreme distress other negative side effects of doing so, and say that this treatment interfered with their benefitting from other treatments that they actually found somewhat helpful, then we need to be extra extra cautious.
And what are the other options?
In the case of repetitive body movement and ASD, here's what I and many of my colleagues have done:
-Stopped de facto labeling of the behavior as pathological, and thus stopped any de facto reductive treatments
-Began a default labeling of the behaviors as adaptive and necessary for the individual engaging in them
-Spending more time educating families, caregivers, educators, and peers on the adaptive nature of the behavior for the individual
-Where indicated, helping the individual to develop strategies for explaining their behavior to others
-Where the behavior is actually harmful to the individual or others (and it RARELY is), teaching the individual less harmful strategies that serve the same adaptive function as the behavior.
-Where the behavior is actually disruptive to the environment (and it RARELY actually is), first exhausting all attempts to modify the environment to accommodate current topography, rates, and intensity of the behavior (up to and including desensitization interventions with others). Where this is not possible (and it almost always is!) teaching the individual less disruptive strategies that serve the same adaptive function as the behavior.
-Include the perspectives of individuals who have undergone such treatments in the past into our own continuing education (e.g. invited speakers at our conferences) or the education of future clinicians (I teach a Behavioral Interventions graduate course, and we spend a good bit of time discussing this topic and reviewing things like blog posts, articles, videos, etc. of individual reporting on their experiences with our interventions).
-Encourage individuals who have undergone such treatments in the past to become clinicians and researcher so that their perspectives and experiences are more directly included the development, implementation, and evaluation of our clinical techniques.

Honestly, with the young (toddler) population that I work with, I find that "normalizing" the behavior for the parents ("that's just something he does now") and explaining that we don't really need to focus on that because right now because we have a whole bunch of other meaningful, exciting, and easier things to focus on is pretty much all it takes.

Again- the stuff regarding affective disorders in the OP may be a different animal that what I'm talking about, but there may be some similarities. The evidence for the detrimental effects of symptom masking in ASD, while still emerging, is consistent enough that attention and change is warranted. Not every individual- or even a majority- reports masking and detrimental effects, but enough do to require caution when addressing these types of signs/symptoms.

As to the OP- though I don't work professionally with college students, I live with a few of them. It is almost inconceivable to me how things changed overnight for them a few years ago. My daughter went from me picking her up to come home for Spring Break on a Friday to, within a week, being told that she wouldn't be returning to school and the she couldn't get any of her stuff from school until further notice, if at all. my son spent the last two years of high school attending "class" while lying in his bed. Meanwhile, a circus of politicians, pundits, and "experts" played out on the TV everyday. At a time when they should be experiencing new, exciting, stimulating social experiences, they got to hang out with mom and dad and watch Tiger King. I don't think we yet know the actual long term effects of any of that on the current college-aged population, but my hunch is that a lot of what we knew about their mental health before the pandemic does not apply anymore. They are different than the cohorts who came before them in magnitudes much greater that we were than the cohorts that came before us. I suspect that that has something to do with what's going on in the article in the OP.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
This discussion has been very helpful as I work with young adults who have grown up being different in a variety of ways and the pressure for them to be “normal” has been extremely damaging. Now that you are on meds, you should be fine. Now that you completed treatment, you should be able to do everything everyone else does like a normal person. Now that you are in therapy why are you still not like everyone else. It is often more subtle, but I also see this from the treatment providers as well as family and patients who have internalized this and also want to be normal too.
 
This discussion has been very helpful as I work with young adults who have grown up being different in a variety of ways and the pressure for them to be “normal” has been extremely damaging. Now that you are on meds, you should be fine. Now that you completed treatment, you should be able to do everything everyone else does like a normal person. Now that you are in therapy why are you still not like everyone else. It is often more subtle, but I also see this from the treatment providers as well as family and patients who have internalized this and also want to be normal too.
I think this discussion also points out why we need to be well trained. The further you get from training (I'm going on 30 years!), the more you realize that you can't just be a technician who blindly implements protocols. Populations change, local and world events impact mental health and how pathology presents or not, diagnostic criteria change, etc. I am continuously thankful that I had some good training and mentorship early on. I've still got a lot of learning to do, and I can thank my early experiences for making sure that I recognize that fact.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
...why are you still not like everyone else...
Do you think that the relative ease in which young people can create such homogenous groups today, with similar interests, experiences, even appearances, has skewed their perception of "everybody else?" When there is such little variance in the characteristics of who you interact with, any little little difference is significant. Additionally, outgroups are very much more "out", and thus much more mysterious, weird, and uncomfortable.
 
I'm just going say "masking" isn't a lay concept--it's become very widely used in the literature, primarily in relation to ASD, and it has also been used in other literature, as well as similar terms ("concealment" in suicidality, for example). These differ from coping in that coping is ultimately about reducing one's own distress/discomfort, masking or concealment is primarily about altering how other people see you--even if it doesn't change your internal level of distress/impairment. If someone learns, for example, not to tell someone that they're suicidal because that person calls them "a selfish jerk" for it, them not expressing suicidality doesn't mean that they are no longer suicidal. If someone learns to "look happy" at work while being suicidal, that doesn't magically make them not suicidal. Even in the case where somebody is concealing being suicidal to prevent intervention/interference with plans, that obviously doesn't make them not suicidal. In another example, we know that trainees with disabilities who are struggling with tasks often mask/conceal those struggles until they reach a breaking point and get placed on a PIP, because they don't want to be seen as disabled and ask for help/accommodations. That's different than coming up with a coping strategy, because the problem isn't actually being addressed, only the outwards appearance is.

In hindsight, I think a mistake we made in treating autism was putting too much emphasis on the children being "undistinguishable" from non-disabled peers as a primary outcome--it creates a pressure that if you don't "pass" as non-autistic, you're failing, so passing becomes the only goal, rather than looking at overall functioning and well-being.

Can there be a behavioral activation/practice component to masking that may be clinically helpful? Yes. Can it create a considerable mental load while also creating difficulties accessing help in a timely manner? Yes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
In hindsight, I think a mistake we made in treating autism was putting too much emphasis on the children being "undistinguishable" from non-disabled peers as a primary outcome--it creates a pressure that if you don't "pass" as non-autistic, you're failing, so passing becomes the only goal, rather than looking at overall functioning and well-being.
Most definitely. And we also didn't do a very good job of operationalizing "undistinguishable" in a socially valid way. Using IQ as a metric!?!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
the ASD applications make sense to me. The applications to depressive disorders and anxiety disorders just really doesn’t coalesce with the scientific literature.

And since the term is getting adopted into the peer review literature, and our field is pretty tight on construct validity, it sounds like the definition of masking is pretty important. It can’t be “you know…”
 
the ASD applications make sense to me. The applications to depressive disorders and anxiety disorders just really doesn’t coalesce with the scientific literature.

And since the term is getting adopted into the peer review literature, and our field is pretty tight on construct validity, it sounds like the definition of masking is pretty important. It can’t be “you know…”
"Masking" may not be used widely with mental illness yet, but other, similar terms have been ("concealment", for example). It's not really a new concept, empirically or clinically. If anything, the change that people--including researchers--are more openly starting to question the degree to which concealing symptoms is a desirable outcome and how that differs from actual symptom or distress/impairment reduction.
 
"Masking" may not be used widely with mental illness yet, but other, similar terms have been ("concealment", for example). It's not really a new concept, empirically or clinically. If anything, the change that people--including researchers--are more openly starting to question the degree to which concealing symptoms is a desirable outcome and how that differs from actual symptom or distress/impairment reduction.
I'm not able to reconcile that with the CBT, ACT, and 1/4 smile literature.

Do you have any references? Sounds like there is some interesting developments.
 
I'm not able to reconcile that with the CBT, ACT, and 1/4 smile literature.

Do you have any references? Sounds like there is some interesting developments.
Here are some sort-of-recent articles. As you'll see, concealment is still a pretty broad topic and the literature covers not only the effects of concealment of mental health symptoms, but also physical disability, medical diagnosis, and -perhaps the most common area in recent literature- the concealment of sexual and gender identity. This is not my clinical area at all, nor are CBT/ACT (I can't get any returns in psychinfo/Eric for "1/4 smile" or "quarter smile", but I assume it's somehow related to the stuff of forcing yourself to make a smile and you end up feeling better than if you didn't), but I'm guessing the outcome research on incorporating concealment issues into treatment is probably equally equivocal/idiosyncratic. The references below include stuff from around the world, so there are likely significant cultural mediators of the relationship between concealment and mental health.

References (in various formats-sorry- but should be enough to hunt down the articles- IM me if you can't access a full copy and I'll see what I can do):

DOI: 10.31828/tpd1300443320191125m000045
Journal of Social and Clinical Psychology, Vol. 34, No. 8, 2015, pp. 705-e774 (closest I have to a review article)
Pakistan Journal of Education Vol.39, No.2, 2022,35-52
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Do you think that the relative ease in which young people can create such homogenous groups today, with similar interests, experiences, even appearances, has skewed their perception of "everybody else?" When there is such little variance in the characteristics of who you interact with, any little little difference is significant. Additionally, outgroups are very much more "out", and thus much more mysterious, weird, and uncomfortable.
I’m actually referring more to the patients I work with who have severe and chronic mental health diagnoses and the expectations that society and their families place on them. These are kids that are far outside the norm but still deal with the expectation that they can function normally somehow. One of my patients who has been working 2 days a week at the same job for over a year and has not been hospitalized in over two was just talking about her parents communication to her that she needs to work 40 hours a week. She said the last time she tried to work full time she ended up in the hospital and why don’t they get that? Another client with Bipolar Disorder and multiple hospitalizations gets out and goes back to school and work and everyone seems to think that’s a good idea. Except me, of course, but then I’m like the boy pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.

Also, they tend to justify the reasoning with the “well they have to keep busy don’t they?” line. Then patient spends two weeks in a hospital doing almost nothing which is probably the most therapeutic part of hospitalization. Yet when they are discharged it’s time to load up the stressors and even worse, now they are behind and need to do extra to catch up.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: 1 user
I’m actually referring more to the patients I work with who have severe and chronic mental health diagnoses and the expectations that society and their families place on them. These are kids that are far outside the norm but still deal with the expectation that they can function normally somehow. One of my patients who has been working 2 days a week at the same job for over a year and has not been hospitalized in over two was just talking about her parents communication to her that she needs to work 40 hours a week. She said the last time she tried to work full time she ended up in the hospital and why don’t they get that? Another client with Bipolar Disorder and multiple hospitalizations gets out and goes back to school and work and everyone seems to think that’s a good idea. Except me, of course, but then I’m like the boy pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.

Also, they tend to justify the reasoning with the “well they have to keep busy don’t they?” line. Then patient spends two weeks in a hospital doing almost nothing which is probably the most therapeutic part of hospitalization. Yet when they are discharged it’s time to load up the stressors and even worse, now they are behind and need to do extra to catch up.
Wow. That's tough work. Thanks for doing it.
 
I’m actually referring more to the patients I work with who have severe and chronic mental health diagnoses and the expectations that society and their families place on them. These are kids that are far outside the norm but still deal with the expectation that they can function normally somehow. One of my patients who has been working 2 days a week at the same job for over a year and has not been hospitalized in over two was just talking about her parents communication to her that she needs to work 40 hours a week. She said the last time she tried to work full time she ended up in the hospital and why don’t they get that? Another client with Bipolar Disorder and multiple hospitalizations gets out and goes back to school and work and everyone seems to think that’s a good idea. Except me, of course, but then I’m like the boy pointing out that the emperor has no clothes.

Also, they tend to justify the reasoning with the “well they have to keep busy don’t they?” line. Then patient spends two weeks in a hospital doing almost nothing which is probably the most therapeutic part of hospitalization. Yet when they are discharged it’s time to load up the stressors and even worse, now they are behind and need to do extra to catch up.

I guess I end up seeing way more of the opposite as someone who works in an first episode psychosis setting. I have lost count of the number of young people in their mid-20s who dropped out of college due to a psychotic episode (sure) but have just lived at home doing...basically nothing all day for months. And I don't mean folks who are so with their own internal worlds or cognitively impaired that they are not capable of doing anything. no, these are the kids who stay up until dawn playing video games, sleep until mid-afternoon, +/- smoking weed on the regular, and wonder why they feel so bored and unmotivated. But the suggestion of their getting a job or taking some classes and their parents immediately try to put the kibosh on it. Rinse and repeat.

Had one young woman who I had finally gotten to admit that she might actually have things she wanted to do in her life and who had decided she wanted to visit NYC by herself on a daytrip. She had a sister who lived in NJ she would go and stay with, then one day while she was there, she'd take the train into the city in the morning and come back to NJ in the evening. She had mapped out all the places she wanted to go and had figured out the subway routes she needed to take to get there. Had saved up her own money to be able to pay for it all. Parents immediately insist it's not safe for her to be in the city by herself and she abandons this plan. You can go way too low with expectations in this space as well.
 
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: 5 users
I guess I end up seeing way more of the opposite as someone who works in an first episode psychosis setting. I have lost count of the number of young people in their mid-20s who dropped out of college due to a psychotic episode (sure) but have just lived at home doing...basically nothing all day for months. And I don't mean folks who are so with their own internal worlds or cognitively impaired that they are not capable of doing anything. no, these are the kids who stay up until dawn playing video games, sleep until mid-afternoon, +/- smoking weed on the regular, and wonder why they feel so bored and unmotivated. But the suggestion of their getting a job or taking some classes and their parents immediately try to put the kibosh on it. Rinse and repeat.

Had one young woman who I had finally gotten to admit that she might actually have things she wanted to do in her life and who had decided she wanted to visit NYC by herself on a daytrip. She had a sister who lived in NJ she would go and stay with, then one day while she was there, she'd take the train into the city in the morning and come back to NJ in the evening. She had mapped out all the places she wanted to go and had figured out the subway routes she needed to take to get there. Had saved up her own money to be able to pay for it all. Parents immediately insist it's not safe for her to be in the city by herself and she abandons this plan. You can go way too low with expectations in this space as well.
Slight tangent, but I've seen/heard of this happening with younger patients with longer-standing histories of epilepsy as well.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
People can be experiencing significant impairment and/or distress and still mask or downplay their depression to others, though, at least to some degree. Many people experiencing MDEs may have episodes that eventually remit on their own or with self-care, but many may require or benefit from active medical/psychological care, in terms of reducing illness duration and severity and sequalae from untreated illness. Major depression has very high morbidity and non-negligible molarity associated with it, and there are good reasons to treat it or at least have good triage around treatment.
Operationally, what's the distinction between 'masking' vs. 'under-reporting' of psychopathology?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I guess I end up seeing way more of the opposite as someone who works in an first episode psychosis setting. I have lost count of the number of young people in their mid-20s who dropped out of college due to a psychotic episode (sure) but have just lived at home doing...basically nothing all day for months. And I don't mean folks who are so with their own internal worlds or cognitively impaired that they are not capable of doing anything. no, these are the kids who stay up until dawn playing video games, sleep until mid-afternoon, +/- smoking weed on the regular, and wonder why they feel so bored and unmotivated. But the suggestion of their getting a job or taking some classes and their parents immediately try to put the kibosh on it. Rinse and repeat.

Had one young woman who I had finally gotten to admit that she might actually have things she wanted to do in her life and who had decided she wanted to visit NYC by herself on a daytrip. She had a sister who lived in NJ she would go and stay with, then one day while she was there, she'd take the train into the city in the morning and come back to NJ in the evening. She had mapped out all the places she wanted to go and had figured out the subway routes she needed to take to get there. Had saved up her own money to be able to pay for it all. Parents immediately insist it's not safe for her to be in the city by herself and she abandons this plan. You can go way too low with expectations in this space as well.
The fundamental doctrine of existentialism--that 'existence precedes essence'--is something that the younger folks of this generation are really struggling with...whether they realize it or not. With the erosion of the classical sources of fundamental meaning (religion, extended family structures, institutions that held to their traditional values/principles) and with their day-to-day survival needs taken for granted (by parents or by government), a lot of younger folks are baffled at what to do with this whole 'existence' thing that the universe has bestowed upon them.
 
Operationally, what's the distinction between 'masking' vs. 'under-reporting' of psychopathology?
@futureapppsy2 may have a different answer, but I'd say it's a matter of function vs. topography. "Under-reporting psychopathology" is a topography of behavior. Doing so with the function of avoiding/escaping stigmatization is masking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

Thoughts? The author's take away is that we should perhaps not encourage labeling/diagnosis of depression, as that may lead to less engagement in positive coping behaviors.
Going back to the original post, I think about psychological flexibility generally predicting outcomes and Hayes work in how verbal thought processes impair psychological flexibility.

When we label something, it allows the verbal mind to get really attached to that label and all the wonderful abstractive properties that come with it. Hayes and colleagues discussed becoming fused to internalized beliefs, dominance of conceptualized past, etc. leading to more avoidance of experiences and unpleasant internal states.

I am wondering if the effects of labeling a disorder is especially iatrogenic in the context of modern identity games.

Wonder what happens with global aphasia to people really attached to labels.

Operationally, what's the distinction between 'masking' vs. 'under-reporting' of psychopathology?
@futureapppsy2 may have a different answer, but I'd say it's a matter of function vs. topography. "Under-reporting psychopathology" is a topography of behavior. Doing so with the function of avoiding/escaping stigmatization is masking.
I'm not able to reconcile that with the CBT, ACT, and 1/4 smile literature.

Do you have any references? Sounds like there is some interesting developments.

Going back to the discussion on masking, I generally roll my eye whenever I hear patient mentioned it. My frustration with masking has to do with typically anxious and bright young females thinking may have autism and when asked about it, they say they "mask a lot." However, I recently found a Twitter where someone also noted that psychopaths mask a lot too.

From a process note, I think people are getting hung up on whether impairment and feeling bad constitute a disorder or normality in this discussion.

I am generally of the thought that feeling bad is the normal state of humans and we should look to behavior to assess impairment.

Slight tangent, but I've seen/heard of this happening with younger patients with longer-standing histories of epilepsy as well
Parents look for any excuse to "protect" their kids, insert any chronic illness and you start getting the archetypal pathological mothering instincts and modern protectionism. Bringing this back to labeling, it's important to have a discussion with anyone about labels and individuals. I am hoping the pendulum swings back from hashtags and labels to understanding that people are more than their twitter bios and pronouns.

I am reminded of a family that a colleague is working with who are all visually impaired and live in a rough area. When asked about riding the rail to get around at night, they basically all said "no one messes with blind people, the white stick makes us off limits."

Wonder what would happen if those with epilepsy started wearing helmets again in public. That might be a fun therapy disucssion with one of these parents. "What if your kiddo got a free pass if they wear a helmet while out in public and you could feel better about their safety." "You find wearing an epilepsy helmet humiliating?"

A ship in a harbour is safe but that is not what ships are built for.
 
Last edited:
@futureapppsy2 may have a different answer, but I'd say it's a matter of function vs. topography. "Under-reporting psychopathology" is a topography of behavior. Doing so with the function of avoiding/escaping stigmatization is masking.

Don't disagree at all, but I'd imagine measures of these concepts would be highly correlated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Don't disagree at all, but I'd imagine measures of these concepts would be highly correlated.
As one (masking) is a subcategory of the other (under-reporting psychopathology), the correlation would be quite high!

I've been thinking about other functions of under-reporting. I'd bet that avoidance of therapy/therapist/therapeutic activities is a major function- maybe at similar if not higher rates than masking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
My frustration with masking has to do with typically anxious and bright young females thinking may have autism and when asked about it, they say they "mask a lot." However, I recently found a Twitter where someone also noted that psychopaths mask a lot too.
A potential problem with that view is that research would indicate that females with ASD are much lees likely to have been referred for an autism evaluation and much less likely to have been diagnosed if they were. Combine that with the literature (not as strong as the ASD stuff, but still compelling) that females are more likely to mask mental health symptoms, and I'd proceed with caution and give clients the benefit of the doubt with this one until evidence proved otherwise. I'm not saying run with the ASD diagnoses and assume masking, but treat it as a real possibility and further assess, investigate (and that's not directly primarily at you @borne_before, but out of recognition that many new and future psychologists read this board).
From a process note, I think people are getting hung up on whether impairment and feeling bad constitute a disorder or normality in this discussion.

I am generally of the thought that feeling bad is the normal state of humans and we should look to behavior to assess impairment.
Kind of cynical view, in my opinion. I do think some feeling bad is normal, and pure bliss certainly isn't the modal state. I also think that people have a difficult time discriminating from unhappiness due to a lack of positive stimuli in their lives AND unhappiness DESPITE positive stimuli in their lives (a la clinical depression). Both are worthy of treatment, but very different types.
Parents look for any excuse to "protect" their kids, insert any chronic illness and you start getting the archetypal pathological mothering instincts and modern protectionism. Bringing this back to labeling, it's important to have a discussion with anyone about labels and individuals. I am hoping the pendulum swings back from hashtags and labels to understanding that people are more than their twitter bios and pronouns.

I am reminded of a family that a colleague is working with who are all visually impaired and live in a rough area. When asked about riding the rail to get around at night, they basically all said "no one messes with blind people, the white stick makes us off limits."

Wonder what would happen if those with epilepsy started wearing helmets again in public. That might be a fun therapy disucssion with one of these parents. "What if your kiddo got a free pass if they wear a helmet while out in public and you could feel better about their safety." "You find wearing an epilepsy helmet humiliating?"

A ship in a harbour is safe but that is not what ships are built for.
I think this is an important area for study in our field. Most of us doing the clinical work (including you "younger" therapists), did not come of age with the same constant contact, feedback, scrutiny, and ability to be so selective with who and how we interact as someone who cam of age in the last decade and a half. While every generation has dramatic differences from the last and next, social media and connectivity have really changed the mental health landscape for for late adolescents/early adults in ways that make some of our old rules and techniques prematurely past their use by date.

TLDR- I'd highly recommend a clinical position working with primarily pre-verbal toddlers who don't yet have social media accounts of their own (for the most part!). Once your clients start talking, it gets exponentially more difficult to figure out what's going on an what to do about it!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I've been thinking about other functions of under-reporting. I'd bet that avoidance of therapy/therapist/therapeutic activities is a major function- maybe at similar if not higher rates than masking.

I had a similar thought--particularly for certain populations where myths about seeking mental health treatment are particularly strong.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I guess I end up seeing way more of the opposite as someone who works in an first episode psychosis setting. I have lost count of the number of young people in their mid-20s who dropped out of college due to a psychotic episode (sure) but have just lived at home doing...basically nothing all day for months. And I don't mean folks who are so with their own internal worlds or cognitively impaired that they are not capable of doing anything. no, these are the kids who stay up until dawn playing video games, sleep until mid-afternoon, +/- smoking weed on the regular, and wonder why they feel so bored and unmotivated. But the suggestion of their getting a job or taking some classes and their parents immediately try to put the kibosh on it. Rinse and repeat.

Had one young woman who I had finally gotten to admit that she might actually have things she wanted to do in her life and who had decided she wanted to visit NYC by herself on a daytrip. She had a sister who lived in NJ she would go and stay with, then one day while she was there, she'd take the train into the city in the morning and come back to NJ in the evening. She had mapped out all the places she wanted to go and had figured out the subway routes she needed to take to get there. Had saved up her own money to be able to pay for it all. Parents immediately insist it's not safe for her to be in the city by herself and she abandons this plan. You can go way too low with expectations in this space as well.
It does tend to go from one extreme to the other. It is hard enough to walk that line to help support independence with any kid but when there is mental illness involved it’s even more challenging. It’s easy to blame parents, and at times they are the issue, more often though it is inherent in our societies misconceptions of mental illness and how to treat it. Even AI knows that treatment for severe mental illnesses requires a comprehensive approach as me and a young lady with Bipolar found out yesterday 😁, but the general zeitgeist is that medications and maybe a little therapy thrown in for some reason will make people function normally except for the really sick who will probably just stay that way and can’t really live independently.
 
I had a similar thought--particularly for certain populations where myths about seeking mental health treatment are particularly strong.
We also need to acknowledge that there are some very bad, very aversive, therapists out there who may be worth avoiding. Many of the treatments treatment are difficult on their own. Pair those with an aversive therapist, and it might be adaptive to say that you feel better rather than dealing with aversiveness of the therapeutic process.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
We also need to acknowledge that there are some very bad, very aversive, therapists out there who may be worth avoiding. Many of the treatments treatment are difficult on their own. Pair those with an aversive therapist, and it might be adaptive to say that you feel better rather than dealing with aversiveness of the therapeutic process.

Yeah, therapist competence is one of three major issues that, in my view, contribute to problems in the mental health services sector. The other two being poor insurance reimbursements for some services and research that is too broad or disconnected that it really doesn't inform clinical practice.
 
Top