Derm programs using AOA for initial screen

[Utahman]

I searched for a thread with this information and I found a few close but nothing specific so I thought we could start a new thread based on AOA. Perhaps I missed it and the thread already exists. If so...my apologies.

I am not AOA, and I applied to all 100+ programs. The following is a list of programs that did not download my app as of Nov. 2, so I am ASSUMING that these programs screen on AOA (my step 1 and the rest of my app should not prevent me from getting an interview.)

L.A. County-Harbor UCLA
Univ. of Colorado
MC of Georgia
Univ. of Maryland
Tufts
St. Louis University
SUNY @ Stonybrook
Thomas Jefferson

So...If you got interviews here and you were NOT AOA (and you did not attend the program for med school, ect.) please let me know so next years applicants who are not AOA will not waste their money. Also, if you were not AOA and got an interview (when they finally come), try to mention anything that may have helped....knew the PD, or PhD, ect...

Obviously, these programs may have not like my app for other reasons....hence the post.

Thanks All in advance.

The interview suspense is killing me.

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[IzzyMD09]

Fellow Derm applicant reassurance

Tufts is not going into the match this year (or possibly next year) this can be found on their application website,

I think some of those other schools as well removed themselves from the match this year (Thomas Jefferson maybe)?

Always a good idea to check out websites, let us know if you dig anything else up

Good luck to you as well,

 

[SkinNerd]

I interviewed at SLU the first time I applied, and am not AOA. Perhaps they've changed their policy, I don't know.

I have heard that U of Colorado doesn't interview anyone who isn't AOA, although they don't state that on their website. I still applied - what the heck, you never know. I do know that if you interview there you have to give a research presentation, so if you don't have any research you may not have a great chance.

Haven't heard anything about the rest of the programs. maybe they're waiting for the Dean's Letter?

Good luck IzzyMD! I feel your pain - also applied to all programs. Hopefully we'll cross paths on the interview trail.

 

[hmgcoa]

i got aoa. however, the only ones from that list that have downloaded my app are colorado and maryland.

 

[Utahman]

Thanks for the replies.

Izzy: If Tufts and some others are not participating in the match then why are we able to pay for them. Shouldn't we get a refund? That seems shady to let everyone apply to the program and then say, oh yeah, were not doing ERAS this year but thanks for the 20K in application fees. I mean you can't possibly check all 107+ websites before applying can you? Am I missing something? I will check these schools sites and post any further details.

Thanks

 

[kralwok]

correct me if i am wrong, but i think schools still download your app even if they screen for things. all my apps were downloaded last time around, so either i didn't get screened out anywhere or your app still shows up as downloaded even if you get screened out. i got an interview at stonybrook last time around and wasn't aoa.

my app has been downloaded by mcg, maryland, slu, and colorado even though i'm not aoa.

 

[pooch21]

*

 

[xyzyx]

I'm pretty sure that they have to download your app to see whether or not you are AOA. The AOA info is in your Profile, and as you can see, that's one of the components that they download.

Out of the ones you listed, only one of them have downloaded my app:
- SLU (just downloaded today apparently)

Not downloaded
- Harbor UCLA
- University of Colorado
- Medical College of Georgia
- Univ of Maryland
- SUNY Stonybrook
- Thomas Jefferson

Looks like we both submitted our apps around the same time.
I'm guessing these schools don't download as frequently as other schools. Perhaps they download every 2 weeks or so... and we caught them right after their previous download.
(omg... did you go through and click through every single school on your track applications page?? I never thought about doing that... I just assumed they would be downloaded).

Yeah, I agree Tufts should have changed their status on ERAS instead of having people pay $25 for nuttin'. (one of the UMNJD-something-or-other schools changed their status so I knew not to apply to it...)

Re: your question of if you're supposed to look up every single program.... I did look up every single program... as Izzy seems to have done too. It took a looooooong time, and the yield was low. I'd say like 95% of them had no special instructions and I didn't get much out of it... I did save $25 by not applying to Tufts. So looking on the bright side, you saved yourself a good 15 hours or so, and I think that's totally worth $25. Now I kinda wish I didn't look up all of them.

I didn't run Thomas Jefferson mentioning they are not taking applicants via the Match this year.
Please post a link if you found it online... I didn't find anything on their website.

L.A. County-Harbor UCLA
Univ. of Colorado
MC of Georgia
Univ. of Maryland
Tufts
St. Louis University
SUNY @ Stonybrook
Thomas Jefferson

 

[DermViser]

I have heard that U of Colorado doesn't interview anyone who isn't AOA, although they don't state that on their website.

Funny, as in past years it has been clearly, directly stated on their website for American graduate applicants that they have to be AOA.

 

[IzzyMD09]

yeah i knew i was right about tufts, unfortunately it was after i paid the 25$, I knew there were other schools that withdrew from the match as well, but those will only affect people who applied the day ERAS opened, schools can still withdraw from the match even now, all they are required to do is to state that on another website, ERAS is apparently not responsible if you yourself dont do the legwork (which is a load of horseplop)

I feel all your pain, but this is what it is, and its never going to change, those that match dont care anymore, those that dont only bitch without ever doing something

Until Congress unfreezes CME funding, there will never be more derm spots, even though the top of the top are the ones applying,

Its just that much less skin cancer prevented, psoriasis treated, or CTCL managed correctly, who cares right, there are only 60,000 dermatologists in the US for 310 million people,

 

[Cheebs09]

Between a friend and myself, neither of us were AOA but we received interview offers at:
L.A. County-Harbor UCLA
Univ. of Colorado
Univ. of Maryland
Tufts
Thomas Jefferson
among our lists.

Also, it's not unreasonable to check ALL the websites for places you apply to. You are hoping they will read ALL the applications right? And you supposedly WANT to go there?

 

[Dermguy]

Colorado took off the "don't apply if you're not AOA" thing because it simply wasn't true of their program. Several recent/current residents were/are not AOA.

It's beyond stupid to say that just because someone isn't AOA they won't get an interview. I would say that VERY few (if any) programs truly only look at AOA people. After all, if you use that screen then you're not looking at anybody from Harvard, Stanford or Mayo, which would be downright stupid.

I was told, however (at several interviews) the specific cutoff for applications. One program told me that they literally never looked at an application with a Step 1 below 230. That sucks, but that's the way it goes. They told me, "We just do it because we can. We have enough people with great step 1 scores who want to come here, so that's who we look at."

 

[IzzyMD09]

is that generally the cut-off, I have always asked and have gotten various answers in return

but 230 is a common number thrown around

so
???

 

[Dermaholic]

AOA means nothing at my school, it's all based on peer votes and hardly any faculty are involved in the selection process. Recently we've actually had lazy, bar-frequenting, coke-snorting, students who ended up remediating first year medical school achieving AOA status, it's idiotic. They get picked because they are on student government or have some marginally redeeming quality that ends up working in their favor.

AOA is not selected similarly at all schools and should not be treated as a universal "seal of approval" in determining a student's worth. Obviously there's a correlation between hard-working students and AOA status which is probably why so many derm folks have it. I think programs understand that AOA works this way as well and hopefully don't use it as their main screening tool.

Does anyone know if Arkansas picks only AOA applicants? If you look at their resident page ALL of them have AOA (which I find odd that a program would be posting that information).

 

[kralwok]

wow, i thought my school was the only school that elected aoa in a similar manner. it is voted on by peers who were elected to junior aoa (i'm not sure how junior aoa is selected). it is totally bogus, and i'm not just saying that because i didn't end up getting elected and feel like i deserved it. my friend who was junior aoa the year after me told me about how it was done and how bogus and unfair it is. all these people who were friends with the junior aoa people ended up getting senior aoa.

 

[Cheebs09]

I was not AOA and got 28 derm interviews, matched at my top choice.
This is not a gate to derm.
You can do plenty to round out your application and have a successful match.
Do not despair!

 

[dermdocchitown]

I am very glad to hear that... I'm in the middle of my 3rd year and am planning on applying to derm residency next year. I know AOA is important, but it is nice to know it is not necessarily required.

 

[Renova]

AOA means nothing at my school...Recently we've actually had lazy, bar-frequenting, coke-snorting, students who ended up remediating first year medical school achieving AOA status, it's idiotic. They get picked because they are on student government or have some marginally redeeming quality that ends up working in their favor.

I find that a little hard to believe.

While schools are given significant latitude in determining their individual selection critera/processes, there are minimum requirements mandated by AOA itself. You cannot be elected AOA if you are not in the top quartile of your class, period. So either your school is calculating class rank in a very creative manner (I've never heard of anyone repeating M1 and still graduating in the top 25% of their class)...or, more likely, your "bar-frequenting, coke-snorting" colleagues still managed to pull it together enough to have reasonably good grades and a well-rounded CV to boot.

 

[chef]

I was not AOA and got 28 derm interviews, matched at my top choice.
This is not a gate to derm.
You can do plenty to round out your application and have a successful match.
Do not despair!

28 interviews! lemme guess, you werent AOA but you had 270+ boards, PhD with 20 pubs, cured cancer, saved an African village from a dictator, won the Pulitzer and gave a solo concert at Carnegie Hall..?

 

[Dermguy]

AOA means nothing at my school, it's all based on peer votes and hardly any faculty are involved in the selection process. Recently we've actually had lazy, bar-frequenting, coke-snorting, students who ended up remediating first year medical school achieving AOA status, it's idiotic. They get picked because they are on student government or have some marginally redeeming quality that ends up working in their favor.

AOA is not selected similarly at all schools and should not be treated as a universal "seal of approval" in determining a student's worth. Obviously there's a correlation between hard-working students and AOA status which is probably why so many derm folks have it. I think programs understand that AOA works this way as well and hopefully don't use it as their main screening tool.

Does anyone know if Arkansas picks only AOA applicants? If you look at their resident page ALL of them have AOA (which I find odd that a program would be posting that information).

Not everyone who matched at Arkansas this last time was AOA. I really doubt anyplace literally throws out EVERY application that's not AOA

 

[Renova]

Not everyone who matched at Arkansas this last time was AOA. I really doubt anyplace literally throws out EVERY application that's not AOA

The PD at one of my away rotations (I obviously can't say which) told me told me directly that they don't consider non-AOA applicants, just because they "can afford to be that picky." I was somewhat surprised, considering the fact that this wasn't even a prestigious program.

 

[Dermaholic]

We don't have class ranks so there is no "top quartile" at my school. I'm not talking about people repeating years but repeating classes over the summer. From what previous members have told me it's 90% peer-based. I'm sure we are not the norm. I'm not bashing AOA, just the process that seems to be taking place at my home institution.

I find that a little hard to believe.

While schools are given significant latitude in determining their individual selection critera/processes, there are minimum requirements mandated by AOA itself. You cannot be elected AOA if you are not in the top quartile of your class, period. So either your school is calculating class rank in a very creative manner (I've never heard of anyone repeating M1 and still graduating in the top 25% of their class)...or, more likely, your "bar-frequenting, coke-snorting" colleagues still managed to pull it together enough to have reasonably good grades and a well-rounded CV to boot.

 

[sensitive skin]

It is within the constitution of AOA that only the top quartile, as measured by academic performance, be chosen for membership. There is some freedom for each chapter to choose its final member list, ie, the popularity contest as some of you are complaining about,. However, the top quartile "rule" is so firmly enforced that it's not surprising that many derm programs have AOA screens.

I don't believe Dermaholic's school's AOA is meaningless at all. Sure, the final selection may be peer-based, but this is based upon at least the top quartile of the class. This counts for something.

After all, programs can advertise their residents' AOA status (also PhD, publication records)...not so easily their board scores. Think about that.

During interviews, I sometimes caught a glance at the stack of candidate papers when the interviewer was rifling through for my application. AOA was always written again in big bold letters, circled, and highlighted at the top. It matters. Don't kid yourself.

 

[Dermaholic]

I don't believe Dermaholic's school's AOA is meaningless at all. Sure, the final selection may be peer-based, but this is based upon at least the top quartile of the class. This counts for something.

During interviews, I sometimes caught a glance at the stack of candidate papers when the interviewer was rifling through for my application. AOA was always written again in big bold letters, circled, and highlighted at the top. It matters. Don't kid yourself.

You guys are taking my post way too literally/seriously . There were some great people at my school that got AOA and I'm happy for them, a few not so super people as well as stated above. I completely understand that AOA does matter for derm because it is overall an amazing group of medical students. More power to all you AOA people and I meant no offense by my first post. It was my way of venting some steam .

 

[SheinhardtWigs]

I asked the PD of my home dermatology program this same question (i.e., schools that screen based on AOA status?), and he stated that he was not aware of any schools that screen applicants based on AOA status. I've heard from sources that there are board score cut-offs, however. I personally do not think that AOA status will make or break anybody applying to dermatology. It does not tell programs anything more about the applicant than the transcript, board scores, and CV will. Plus, the process of elections is so variable from school to school that it's impossible to fault someone from school A not being AOA vs. somebody from school B being AOA, all other factors beings equal.

 

[moinmoin]

The PD at one of my away rotations (I obviously can't say which) told me told me directly that they don't consider non-AOA applicants, just because they "can afford to be that picky." I was somewhat surprised, considering the fact that this wasn't even a prestigious program.

This is the kind of thing I wish I knew so as to not waste too much money in the future when I apply. I wouldn't mind if they just posted it on their websites...

 

[asmallchild]

It is within the constitution of AOA that only the top quartile, as measured by academic performance, be chosen for membership. There is some freedom for each chapter to choose its final member list, ie, the popularity contest as some of you are complaining about,. However, the top quartile "rule" is so firmly enforced that it's not surprising that many derm programs have AOA screens.

I don't believe Dermaholic's school's AOA is meaningless at all. Sure, the final selection may be peer-based, but this is based upon at least the top quartile of the class. This counts for something.

After all, programs can advertise their residents' AOA status (also PhD, publication records)...not so easily their board scores. Think about that.

During interviews, I sometimes caught a glance at the stack of candidate papers when the interviewer was rifling through for my application. AOA was always written again in big bold letters, circled, and highlighted at the top. It matters. Don't kid yourself.

Having gone through the application process as a non-AOA member, I can certainly attest to how helpful AOA status would have been.

 

[ihatethisproces]

Not everyone who matched at Arkansas this last time was AOA. I really doubt anyplace literally throws out EVERY application that's not AOA

you are mistaken: all new residents were aoa. Its on the website

 

[dermatophyte]

has UCLA harbor downloaded any apps?

 

[Ischemia]

There are definitely programs that screen by AOA. Mine is one of them. Can't say if any others do and don't necessarily agree with it. But it's true.

 

[Dral]

So as Dermguy mentioned earlier, no candidates from Harvard, Stanford, or Mayo will ever end up at your program then?

So odd, so very odd.

 

[sensitive skin]

So as Dermguy mentioned earlier, no candidates from Harvard, Stanford, or Mayo will ever end up at your program then?

So odd, so very odd.

I think there would be an exception to the AOA screening rule for anybody coming from Harvard, Stanford, or Mayo. Seemed like a lot of Harvard interviewees last year if I recall correctly...

 

[Renova]

has UCLA harbor downloaded any apps?

Downloaded as of 11/19

 

[Dermguy]

I think there would be an exception to the AOA screening rule for anybody coming from Harvard, Stanford, or Mayo. Seemed like a lot of Harvard interviewees last year if I recall correctly...

17 Harvard interviewees last year I think

 

[Ischemia]

So as Dermguy mentioned earlier, no candidates from Harvard, Stanford, or Mayo will ever end up at your program then?

So odd, so very odd.

Not sure of the specifics because I obviously don't do the screening, but we've interviewed people from those programs so they aren't screened out. But my PD personally told me he uses AOA as a screen. I'm pretty sure other schools do too.

 

[ShaveBiopsy]

Harvard doesn't have AOA so it doesn't really apply to their students applying

 

[jgrek]

Current third year who just wanted to give this thread a ping. Trying to gauge what programs are AOA heavy from an applicant standpoint, because I'm NOT going to be AOA. I'm at a NON top-40 med school and finished 2nd quartile year one, borderline 1st quartile year two. Working hard to honor 3rd year, obviously. I feel like I check pretty much every other box. I'm going to apply broadly. Basically I'm just trying to figure out the programs not to bother with...

 

[PatsyStone]

Current third year who just wanted to give this thread a ping. Trying to gauge what programs are AOA heavy from an applicant standpoint, because I'm NOT going to be AOA.

-Step 1: 253
-Basic science masters from top 25 research institution with 3 years of research after in a couple different fields (though none were derm).
-5 publications (mostly 2nd or 3rd author; just got a 1st author case report in JAAD, and am 2nd author on another manuscript out in Derm Surgery which would be pub 6 for me).
-6 abstracts (1st author on only one though and they are all orthopaedics from some work I did after my masters.
- >150 hrs volunteering my first two years (great volunteer program at my school). It's split about half and half between clinical and non clinical volunteering. Also have two "leadership" positions with a couple of the places I volunteered.

I'm at a NON top-40 med school and finished 2nd quartile year one, borderline 1st quartile year two. Working hard to honor 3rd year, obviously. I feel like I check pretty much every other box. I'm going to apply broadly. Basically I'm just trying to figure out the programs not to bother with...

1. All programs value AOA and are AOA heavy
2. This process is random: you never know who will interview you and where you may end up matching. Point is, apply broadly and have the strongest application you can have

 

[username456789]

I was shocked to find out that about 85-90% of the applicants my program interviews are AOA, and we're nowhere near a top/high ranking program. I can't image how important AOA is for some of the more competitive programs.

Totally anecdotally, but my gestalt when interviewing for residencies was that the "lower tier" programs (non-research powerhouse programs and such) placed a heavier emphasis on AOA. Perhaps it's because the higher power programs are used to dealing with applicants from schools without AOA, or maybe some other reasons.

My sample size was only ~15 or 16 programs, so I may be way off. But I could certainly surmise that some of the lesser known programs may place a higher premium on this.

 

[PatsyStone]

It's difficult to tell what percent of fellow interviewees are AOA because it never comes up in conversation and we don't see each others applicantions.

That being said, in my experience at the top programs, everyone I talked to on interview days either had a PhD or did a research year.

 

[username456789]

It's difficult to tell what percent of fellow interviewees are AOA because it never comes up in conversation and we don't see each others applicantions.

That being said, in my experience at the top programs, everyone I talked to on interview days either had a PhD or did a research year.

If you get their names you can easily look it up online.