derm vs rad attending battle....

[lovinlife23]

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friendly battle.....anyways, I did notice other threads on this topic but not specifically what I had in mind. First off, i wanna say that regardless of what im about to say about money, my primary focus will be on providing quality care for my patients. I was hoping to get information on how much money one can make in these fields if many hours were invested.

For example, I heard most derms skew salary figures because they barely work. So one of my questions is--if one went into derm and put in "surgeon" hours (let's say 65 hrs) would they make comparable money to surgeons? Also, why don't all derms open a practice and keep expanding since there is a very high demand (ie attracting clientele, hiring PAs, NPs, techs as needed and then eventually opening other practices, rinse and repeat)?

As far as radiologists, I heard that they can make over a million if they put the same hours that surgeons put in. i don't get how they do this. aren't most of them employed by hospitals or in groups established by other fields (ie cardiologists)? How do they increase their pay other than by increasing hours? (as an aside, rad oncs or IR?)

im thinkin derms have the edge here since they can expand their business and they have many small procedures that can be done by midlevels (that are also mostly out of pocket). I would like to hear from derm and rad attendings that know exactly whats happening in their fields today and where they see it going. i feel like everything is so secretive and the information you get from different people and websites can vary widely. I would like people "in the know" to really shed light here, if they would be so kind 🙂

 

[link2swim06]

friendly battle.....anyways, I did notice other threads on this topic but not specifically what I had in mind. First off, i wanna say that regardless of what im about to say about money, my primary focus will be on providing quality care for my patients. I was hoping to get information on how much money one can make in these fields if many hours were invested.

For example, I heard most derms skew salary figures because they barely work. So one of my questions is--if one went into derm and put in "surgeon" hours (let's say 65 hrs) would they make comparable money to surgeons? Also, why don't all derms open a practice and keep expanding since there is a very high demand (ie attracting clientele, hiring PAs, NPs, techs as needed and then eventually opening other practices, rinse and repeat)?

As far as radiologists, I heard that they can make over a million if they put the same hours that surgeons put in. i don't get how they do this. aren't most of them employed by hospitals or in groups established by other fields (ie cardiologists)? How do they increase their pay other than by increasing hours? (as an aside, rad oncs or IR?)

im thinkin derms have the edge here since they can expand their business and they have many small procedures that can be done by midlevels (that are also mostly out of pocket). I would like to hear from derm and rad attendings that know exactly whats happening in their fields today and where they see it going. i feel like everything is so secretive and the information you get from different people and websites can vary widely. I would like people "in the know" to really shed light here, if they would be so kind 🙂

Most radiologists put in long hours similar to surgeons and don't make a million a year.

 

[EndersRebutal]

friendly battle.....anyways, I did notice other threads on this topic but not specifically what I had in mind. First off, i wanna say that regardless of what im about to say about money, my primary focus will be on providing quality care for my patients. I was hoping to get information on how much money one can make in these fields if many hours were invested.

For example, I heard most derms skew salary figures because they barely work. So one of my questions is--if one went into derm and put in "surgeon" hours (let's say 65 hrs) would they make comparable money to surgeons? Also, why don't all derms open a practice and keep expanding since there is a very high demand (ie attracting clientele, hiring PAs, NPs, techs as needed and then eventually opening other practices, rinse and repeat)?

As far as radiologists, I heard that they can make over a million if they put the same hours that surgeons put in. i don't get how they do this. aren't most of them employed by hospitals or in groups established by other fields (ie cardiologists)? How do they increase their pay other than by increasing hours? (as an aside, rad oncs or IR?)

im thinkin derms have the edge here since they can expand their business and they have many small procedures that can be done by midlevels (that are also mostly out of pocket). I would like to hear from derm and rad attendings that know exactly whats happening in their fields today and where they see it going. i feel like everything is so secretive and the information you get from different people and websites can vary widely. I would like people "in the know" to really shed light here, if they would be so kind 🙂

Life Pro-Tip: #1 Google any question you have first before coming to SDN if you would like to avoid the verbal lashing you will soon receive (though the hive mind may just ignore this post). You may not get the exact answer but at least you will be more educated on the subject and can ask more informed and worthwhile questions. #2. SDN also has a rather handy search feature that can give you access to a plethora of information that you may not find through Google (though Google will likely bring here anyway.) #3 Ease yourself into SDN. Lurk a while. Learn the lay of the land. Certain subject matter and types of questions bring not but ire and flame.

 

[cowme]

rads salaries have been crushed over the past decade. Maybe there were some rad millionaires a decade ago, but those days are gone.

They still make good money, with an avg in PP ~300-350 K, but they are working at pretty much maximum efficiency for an average of 55 hrs/week. Any longer is just unrealistic without compromising patient care.

 

[lovinlife23]

Life Pro-Tip: #1 Google any question you have first before coming to SDN if you would like to avoid the verbal lashing you will soon receive (though the hive mind may just ignore this post). You may not get the exact answer but at least you will be more educated on the subject and can ask more informed and worthwhile questions. #2. SDN also has a rather handy search feature that can give you access to a plethora of information that you may not find through Google (though Google will likely bring here anyway.) #3 Ease yourself into SDN. Lurk a while. Learn the lay of the land. Certain subject matter and types of questions bring not but ire and flame.

Huh? lol i said in my post that i've seen and heard a lot of different information but wanted to hear it straight from attendings. I'm in med school but its just really awkward to talk about money without coming off as a "douche." which honestly, i dont understand. i dont think ive seen any other profession where a person that is interested in the field has to explain themselves when they mention money. it should be fine to talk about money. i'm still going to treat my patients like gold lol. this little money rant is not in response to what you said. I would like direct information from people who really know what's going on

 

[lovinlife23]

rads salaries have been crushed over the past decade. Maybe there were some rad millionaires a decade ago, but those days are gone.

They still make good money, with an avg in PP ~300-350 K, but they are working at pretty much maximum efficiency for an average of 55 hrs/week. Any longer is just unrealistic without compromising patient care.

Oh really? Wow. You see, this is what i'm talking about. I've heard of a radiologist making a killing on long island from a pretty reliable source. they told me he was making over 2 millon a year. I'm having a hard time understanding how everyone's figures differ this much. dont get me wrong. i understand the concept of an average but what exactly are these high-end salary guys doing differently? special circumstances or are they just working harder (more desire to make more as opposed to just being happy with avg salary)?

 

[cowme]

What he told you was outdated.

A simplistic way to think of a radiologists salary is: number studies dictated * insurance rate for said study (x)

--where x is a modifier based on insurance payor rates (rural doctors get paid more per study, good insurance pays a bit more than medicare).

The rural factor is more important than the type of insurance your patients have. A doc in kansas will make around twice what a doctor in nyc makes (so..your long island friend is full of crap unless he owns his imaging equipment--which has also seen reimbursement fees crash lately). Patient populations with good insurance will pay up to 20-30% more per study.

Working harder doesn't really make much of a difference. As I said, radiologists today are working at pretty much max efficiency. There is literally no way that most can read studies any faster without guaranteeing that they will miss something, kill someone, and have a lawsuit on their hands. So if you want to maximize your profits, find the wealthiest town in Montana and set up shop there. But even then, you aren't going to make a million.

Basically, what I'm trying to say it, if anyone thinks they are going to be a millionaire by going into radiology, they are foolish. But it's still the best field in medicine, IMO.

 

[ChE04]

Life Pro-Tip: #1 Google any question you have first before coming to SDN if you would like to avoid the verbal lashing you will soon receive (though the hive mind may just ignore this post). You may not get the exact answer but at least you will be more educated on the subject and can ask more informed and worthwhile questions. #2. SDN also has a rather handy search feature that can give you access to a plethora of information that you may not find through Google (though Google will likely bring here anyway.) #3 Ease yourself into SDN. Lurk a while. Learn the lay of the land. Certain subject matter and types of questions bring not but ire and flame.

#4) don't come into the allo forum and talk $hit when you're a pre-med

 

[Winged Scapula]

Oh really? Wow. You see, this is what i'm talking about. I've heard of a radiologist making a killing on long island from a pretty reliable source. they told me he was making over 2 millon a year. I'm having a hard time understanding how everyone's figures differ this much. dont get me wrong. i understand the concept of an average but what exactly are these high-end salary guys doing differently? special circumstances or are they just working harder (more desire to make more as opposed to just being happy with avg salary)?

These "high end salary guys" are not making 2 mil sitting in a dark room. They are business people, partners in large corporations.

In your first post you mistakenly noted that radiologists are employed by hospitals or groups started by other specialists. Not true at all. There is a very large market for freestanding radiology facilities. I live in the fifth largest city in the United States and the biggest players here are not hospital employees or employed by other groups. These are groups started by radiologists (ie, Dr. John Simon of Simon Med) and while I don't know what they make, pretty much the only way to make those kind of figures is as a business person in medicine rather than as a physician.

And while I won't get into the debate of "Why don't they work more to make more money?", I'd venture that there are some people who make enough and simply want to enjoy their lives and not work 65+ hours a week.

 

[Acoustic]

Life Pro-Tip: #1 Google any question you have first before coming to SDN if you would like to avoid the verbal lashing you will soon receive (though the hive mind may just ignore this post). You may not get the exact answer but at least you will be more educated on the subject and can ask more informed and worthwhile questions. #2. SDN also has a rather handy search feature that can give you access to a plethora of information that you may not find through Google (though Google will likely bring here anyway.) #3 Ease yourself into SDN. Lurk a while. Learn the lay of the land. Certain subject matter and types of questions bring not but ire and flame.

Says the "MS-0", whatever that means, with less than 50 posts who joined two months ago. What an allo noob.

OP, search the allo thread for MGMA, which is the most reliable and realistic breakdown of salary by specialty. It has things like percentiles too.

I agree that the guys making over a mil have either started a large number of practices and owns them, has invented something, or is in the way high up spots in academia (like head of a department).

 

[cowme]

I agree that the guys making over a mil have either started a large number of practices and owns them, has invented something, or is in the way high up spots in academia (like head of a department).

All academia pays crap, even the high up positions. The chairman of the University of Michigan rads department (one of the top tier departments in the country) makes a touch under 350k--their salaries are posted publicly. This is less than a below-average resident would probably make graduating from the worst residency program in the country.

But yes, the only way to make a million in this field is on the business end. And this is probably true for every field in medicine now.

 

[Bangersandmash]

All academia pays crap, even the high up positions. The chairman of the University of Michigan rads department (one of the top tier departments in the country) makes a touch under 350k--their salaries are posted publicly. This is less than a below-average resident would probably make graduating from the worst residency program in the country.

I don't usually interrupt allo threads, but the director of dermatology at the University of South Florida makes over a million on a government salary. It was posted publicly and a huge outcry went up about it.

Definitely the exception and not the rule though.

 

[cowme]

I don't usually interrupt allo threads, but the director of dermatology at the University of South Florida makes over a million on a government salary. It was posted publicly and a huge outcry went up about it.

Definitely the exception and not the rule though.

Welp, guess that settles that debate.

Derm wins

 

[Bangersandmash]

Welp, guess that settles that debate.

Derm wins

👍

You can look at his CV if you'd like!

http://health.usf.edu/medicine/dermatology/bios/fenske.htm

 

[ijn]

All academia pays crap, even the high up positions. The chairman of the University of Michigan rads department (one of the top tier departments in the country) makes a touch under 350k--their salaries are posted publicly. This is less than a below-average resident would probably make graduating from the worst residency program in the country.

But yes, the only way to make a million in this field is on the business end. And this is probably true for every field in medicine now.

Incorrect. UTSW pays one of their chairmen 1,750,000 dollars a year and they aren't even near the top end of academics. ****, even assistant professors are getting paid 850,000+. Their salaries public record since it's a state institution. Of course it pales in comparison to what we pay our football couch (5.3 mil), but still... academics can pay bro.

http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/

 

[cowme]

brb, moving to texas

 

[lovinlife23]

These "high end salary guys" are not making 2 mil sitting in a dark room. They are business people, partners in large corporations.

In your first post you mistakenly noted that radiologists are employed by hospitals or groups started by other specialists. Not true at all. There is a very large market for freestanding radiology facilities. I live in the fifth largest city in the United States and the biggest players here are not hospital employees or employed by other groups. These are groups started by radiologists (ie, Dr. John Simon of Simon Med) and while I don't know what they make, pretty much the only way to make those kind of figures is as a business person in medicine rather than as a physician.

And while I won't get into the debate of "Why don't they work more to make more money?", I'd venture that there are some people who make enough and simply want to enjoy their lives and not work 65+ hours a week.

my bad. a lot of my information is googled and hearsay lol. also, i totally respect people not wanting to work more for money if it's not what makes them happy. im just wondering if thats the reason some docs arent bringing in crazier salaries on average. for example, derms. since they basically own that specific market (this is from reading online sources and other sdn posts) and supply is low, can't they just keep expanding their businesses? this isn't a hypothetical question, i'm really curious as to what the obstacles are, if any. I read that they have patients filling their calendars for months on end.

BTW, i think Dr. Silvers was the highest paid professor ever and he's a dermatologist. that's cool and all but i think its harder to achieve those figures in academics so im not interested. and WHERE MAH DERMS ATTT???!? come answer my questions 🙂

 

[link2swim06]

Incorrect. UTSW pays one of their chairmen 1,750,000 dollars a year and they aren't even near the top end of academics. ****, even assistant professors are getting paid 850,000+. Their salaries public record since it's a state institution. Of course it pales in comparison to what we pay our football couch (5.3 mil), but still... academics can pay bro.

http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/

Big deal.

The highest paid academics is ~4 million.

The dermatologists who made proactiv have over billion dollars (with a b) of sales a year. They likely make in less than a week, what the highest academics makes in an entire year.


From highest to lowest pay

Successful Business Related to Medicine>>>>>>>>Private Practice>>Academics

 

[Acoustic]

Big deal.

The highest paid academics is ~4 million.

The dermatologists who made proactiv have over billion dollars (with a b) of sales a year. They likely make in less than a week, what the highest academics makes in an entire year.


From highest to lowest pay

Successful Business Related to Medicine>>>>>>>>Private Practice>>Academics

It's more like:

Successful Private Practice >>> Private Practice ~ Successful Academics >>>> Academics

 

[DrAwsome]

Incorrect. UTSW pays one of their chairmen 1,750,000 dollars a year and they aren't even near the top end of academics. ****, even assistant professors are getting paid 850,000+. Their salaries public record since it's a state institution. Of course it pales in comparison to what we pay our football couch (5.3 mil), but still... academics can pay bro.

http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/

Absolutely this. To think that ALL academics pays crap is just so wrong. Many places pay their academics quite handsomely, even look at CA schools and their associate profs are making a killing.

Let's not be naive here.

And just like anything, the only way to make a ton of money in any career, is to be business savvy. There are FM docs who are making millions with their spa type practices, for example.

Also, to think that other fields somehow just get paid a ton for nothing is not realistic. The people who are making it big are those who are entreprenurial and business savvy. That's why you have a ton of 24 year olds at Goldman Sachs making 400k and people with BAs in sales who have a good personality and good people skills who are making what many primary care people make.

Oh and to whoever OP asked, you don't have to be a dermatologist to open up shop as a cosmetic type. Many people who are non dermies do so, and can be quite successful.
In fact, I'd dare say that there are more nonderm spa owners than derm ones.

 

[DrAwsome]

rads salaries have been crushed over the past decade. Maybe there were some rad millionaires a decade ago, but those days are gone.

They still make good money, with an avg in PP ~300-350 K, but they are working at pretty much maximum efficiency for an average of 55 hrs/week. Any longer is just unrealistic without compromising patient care.

I think you are mistaken about this. While salaries in rads and many other fields don't pay what they paid in the past, those are starting salaries in rads, and there are many jobs that start at that and more, and many partners, even today, are pulling in quite a bit amount of $$. Is it the panacea that was before? No. But the money in rads is still quite good.

 

[cowme]

i'm basing my figures on the medscape surveys. And I also may be biased by being on the east coast, where salaries are much lower than what you see in the midwest and south

Maybe I was too adamant by saying all academics pays crap. But I'm still going to say that, in general, academics pays significantly less. And I've never seen any data to suggest otherwise

 

[45408]

Most radiologists put in long hours similar to surgeons and don't make a million a year.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19770339

The 75th percentile for radiologists is working 55 hours a week, which is the median amount that general surgeons work. The 75th percentile for vacation days was also 50 days.


As a side note, those Texas guys are raking it in. A pediatric surgeon making $750K/year? wow.

 

[pinipig523]

Incorrect. UTSW pays one of their chairmen 1,750,000 dollars a year and they aren't even near the top end of academics. ****, even assistant professors are getting paid 850,000+. Their salaries public record since it's a state institution. Of course it pales in comparison to what we pay our football couch (5.3 mil), but still... academics can pay bro.

http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/

No one better complain about the MD in that list making $800K+.... those coaches are making $5M...

If there is public outcry, that's just ridiculous.

 

[link2swim06]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19770339

The 75th percentile for radiologists is working 55 hours a week, which is the median amount that general surgeons work. The 75th percentile for vacation days was also 50 days.


As a side note, those Texas guys are raking it in. A pediatric surgeon making $750K/year? wow.

Hmm..my post was referring to the table below which was published in JAMA about 10 years ago. It is hard to believe the hours would have gotten better for either surgeons or radiologists since then.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=197211

 

[ChE04]

Hmm..my post was referring to the table below which was published in JAMA about 10 years ago. It is hard to believe the hours would have gotten better for either surgeons or radiologists since then.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=197211

"Recent specialty choices of graduating US medical students suggest that lifestyle may be an increasingly important factor in their career decision making."

Well who would have thought that?? Groundbreaking research here... lol

 

[Acoustic]

"Recent specialty choices of graduating US medical students suggest that lifestyle may be an increasingly important factor in their career decision making."

Well who would have thought that?? Groundbreaking research here... lol

Haha ya. I wonder how much they spent on that study? Also, I'd be suspicious about where they got their salary data and I wouldn't use that as a good reference. Even as 10 year old data.

 

[45408]

Hmm..my post was referring to the table below which was published in JAMA about 10 years ago. It is hard to believe the hours would have gotten better for either surgeons or radiologists since then.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=197211

They didn't come up with those numbers in your article. They were simply citing two sources, neither of which I was able to pull up. Have you looked at them?

Secondly, I simply don't believe that radiologists are working as much as general surgeons unless it's simply that different in various regions.

 

[HughMyron]

That table is post-tax, right?

Cause I don't know how or why anyone would go into Psych if they made 134K BEFORE taxes, malpractice insurance, fees, etc.

 

[xadmin]

Football coaches make more money because there are less of them out there. It's harder to be a good coach.

As for doctors...they save lives, but then again there are so many of us. Let's say in the whole entire country, there are like 2000 doctors, then yeah we will rake in 5 million a year easily.

 

[Winged Scapula]

That table is post-tax, right?

Cause I don't know how or why anyone would go into Psych if they made 134K BEFORE taxes, malpractice insurance, fees, etc.

No, the salaries in that table are GROSS not net. But the table is 10 years old and I'm not sure how accurate it is anymore.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Football coaches make more money because there are less of them out there. It's harder to be a good coach.

As for doctors...they save lives, but then again there are so many of us. Let's say in the whole entire country, there are like 2000 doctors, then yeah we will rake in 5 million a year easily.

Perhaps.

But more likely it is because football is a big money maker for schools. Good coach ---> good team ---> good season(s) and lots of $$$$$. There aren't that many tennis coaches either but you won't see an SEC tennis coach making near what a football coach does.

 

[DreamingTheLive]

Perhaps.

But more likely it is because football is a big money maker for schools. Good coach ---> good team ---> good season(s) and lots of $$$$$. There aren't that many tennis coaches either but you won't see an SEC tennis coach making near what a football coach does.

Agree. Football coaches are a dime a dozen, literally millions of them in the US across all levels. They make serious bank at the upper levels because, Football at these levels, itself makes SERIOUS dough...it's not a numbers thing at all, that's kind of a stupid argument, its purely a money thing. Football is, currently, a FANTASTIC business to be in....heck, you could easily argue that Americans in general care more about Football than they do their medical care, probably by a wide margin too.

 

[DreamingTheLive]

Physicians are getting screwed because as a whole we undervalue ourselves and simply stick our head in the sand and hope politicians, government, etc. will take care of health care issues for us. Sad.

 

[fore]

When you finish training you are already trained to be an employee. Change the mindset, set out on your own, build a practice, ASC, imaging center, bringing along people you trust and can grow with. There is no substitute for autonomy and then, and only when you take control will you realize the potential has only the limits YOU set. this isn't for everyone, especially in these uncertain times but if you don't give it a shot in your 30s you will not like what you see when being someone's employee. There are plenty of guys opening up every day. Once you let the hospital based guys do their thing, you'll spend more time with you patients building a practice, and setting up your base. A good CPA, Tax attorney, and sound planning and a lot of work is what makes the millions.

 

[cowme]

freshly minted rads don't exactly have the funds to buy the necessary equipment to open an imaging center. Even a center with bottom line, outdated equipment would still run millions of dollars. Reimbursement has been thrashed for technical fees, which is why a lot of independent imaging centers are going broke

 

[fore]

freshly minted rads don't exactly have the funds to buy the necessary equipment to open an imaging center. Even a center with bottom line, outdated equipment would still run millions of dollars. Reimbursement has been thrashed for technical fees, which is why a lot of independent imaging centers are going broke

With all due respect the two major companies in the US offer some generous arrangements for freshly minted rads wishing/willing to start up. Why? Always ask what's in it for them? Fresh faces withe the latest equipment are a billboard for their company. The costs of a start up sometimes are surprisingly minor for a fresh life long client using their equipment. For instance, neuroradiologists can negotiate their own deal, rub it, and in a few years hire guys out of res., and the companies upgrade the equipment as the technology becomes available. Same goes for ASCs. Despite low reimbursements the quality and quantity benefits patients, you, and the bottom line of the equipment company. Why step aside and be the employee of some B school whizz who took the minimal risk when you have the credential with clout?

 

[cowme]

With all due respect...where exactly are you getting this information? Neuroradiology has the most dismal job market in radiology currently... I can't imagine any new neuro-fellowship trained guy have a full imaging center bought for him, let alone negotiate his terms. This may have been true 7 years ago when there was a massive shortage, but in today's climate, I can't imagine this opportunity is available for anyone without the strongest of connections

 

[MOHS_01]

If you plan on getting paid for the direct provision of services, you had better get your head around not making anything near 7 figures as a rule. Sure, there are exceptions - but you are basically running up against a hard mathematical limit due to reimbursements and time.