Did any physician ever tell you it is not worth it? A must read for all premeds

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Have you ever seen an ED bill?

Yes, and I know the games played by hospitals and insurers that inflate bills (without actually impacting the amount reimbursed), and I know what the services actually cost. You should have some idea of these things, too, which is why I call BS when you pull a number from the air and then attempt to conflate what is spent, what is billed, and what is actually collected.
 
You should also know how important it is to consider a differential diagnosis and rule out other potentially fatal processes such as Aortic Dissection and PE. You don't think the ER doc will go ahead and order that CT angio? Did you ever work in an ED? What zero liability state do you live in? I want to practice there.

If you want to talk about the cost of working up chest pain NOS with a shotgun approach, you can push the bill to whatever heights you choose. But, you specifically mentioned ruling out a heart attack, so there you go: EKG, CK-MB, and Troponin I will resolve most cases (especially if performed serially). Throw in a chest film, if you like, those usually cost about $50.
 
Have you ever seen an ED bill? Just by virtue of being in the ED, the bill skyrockets to the thousands. You will be billed a ridiculous amount to make up for all the people that abuse the ER and don't pay. You should also know how important it is to consider a differential diagnosis and rule out other potentially fatal processes such as Aortic Dissection and PE. You don't think the ER doc will go ahead and order that CT angio? Did you ever work in an ED? What zero liability state do you live in? I want to practice there.
:laugh: Where do you live that all chest pains get a CT angio?
 
Great posts and I think it makes for a very enlightening conversation.

I wish there was something we could do about the insane cost of medical school.

I normally agree with L2D 100%, but I don’t think that the average medical student would get into a top tier law school. Having taken the LSAT and MCAT, I can tell you the two tests are significantly different. My percentile on the LSAT was significantly lower than my percentile on the MCAT.
 
It is just sad how naive you are. If you think my thoughts are incoherent, you are in for a big surprise once you start 3rd year of med school. These aren't just my ideas and thoughts. I am stating the current state of health care. For example, there are hundreds of physicians who are already practicing concierge medicine and many more who are contemplating it. But I do want to make it clear that right now, cash based practices are amenable to primary care only. You are confusing that with Emergency Medicine and specialty care. There is a big difference in acuity and depth of Medicine involved between the three.

Wait, so remarking on the idiocy of saying NP/PAs cost the system tons of money and then in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE saying they are hired to cut costs, is naive?

You just type from pure emotion. You don't know what exactly you're typing or how the ideas are linked, but you want to get them off your chest and not give them too much actual thought. That's okay. You can just admit it. Complain all you want about how the government is "taking over healthcare" and how badly you want them to take over malpractice issues and NPs/PAs and school tuition. Complain about how expensive NPs and PAs are and how they're only being hired because they save the hospital money. Complain about how much you hate insurance companies and then defend how necessary they are outside of primary care.

But don't be surprised if someone calls you on these contradictory statements, and don't call them naive for being able to read an entire thread and pick out the clashing replies.

You don't even really understand what I'm saying here. Again, it's the emotion and not the logic. I told you before it's not the actual problems I'm disagreeing with, because these are real and difficult issues. It's the weirdness of complaining about government involvement while simultaneously wishing they would do more for you. It's the peculiarity of the way you rush from one statement to the other without really thinking about them on a deeper level than "Gosh, this really sucks for me!"
 
Wait, so remarking on the idiocy of saying NP/PAs cost the system tons of money and then in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE saying they are hired to cut costs, is naive?

Yes, that statement is true. For a hospital, an NP is cheaper than a physician to employ. BUT, and this is the part that you don't understand, the NP costs the system (i.e. you, me, joe taxpayer, Medicare, government, pretty much everyone but the hospital) a lot more b/c of the excessively unindicated referrals, tests, scans that they order. That is how they drive up the costs of healthcare. Hospital wins, we lose. Now is that too hard to understand for you?

Sure there is some emotion behind it. I hate to see what a sorry state of affairs Medicine has become in the US. There are no easy solutions but is not fair that pre-meds become aware of these issues before they take the plunge?
 
Compare this to the veterinarian making 75k or lawyer making 45K a year with only slightly less debt, there is no comparison, the physician has over double the income.

+1. The post that the OP gave has been one I've read A LOT of times on this website. And I don't know if I speak for most pre-meds, but everyone is aware (or atleast I am) of the negatives that come with this career. However, I do feel for the time put in this is a FAR more lucrative career as compared to others that require similar time....

Law School - Pretty much need to go to a Top 20 school if you want those high paying corporate/big firm jobs. The average salary is ****. So while being a lawyer has a higher ceiling than being a doctor, vast majority of lawyers don't have it that good.

PhD- Again not very lucrative at all. Few get faculty positions and even then gaining tenure takes SOOOO LONG. If you work at a big name private school like Stanford then you'll be pretty decently compensated. But say you are at UC Berkeley or a big name public institution, chances are you are making 70K max.... Lecturers/Associate Professors even less.... With the current economic situation, many Phds are doing entry level lab assistant jobs...

Veterinary Medicine- To be honest, I don't know much about this field. But the quote post says 70K, which sucks. B/c vets have a 4 year program as well (also I hear it is very competitive to get into vet school).

MBA- This field probably has the highest ceiling, but again you have to be a Stanford/Harvard/Sloan/U Penn grad to really make a lot of money. Vast majority of MBAs don't do crap with their degree.

The positive of having an MD is that it provides MUCH more stability. Sure there are parts of it that suck. But at the end of the day, few doctors are unemployed (if any?). I can't even begin to tell you the number of people i know who are graduating MBA/JD etc. who are worried they won't have a job this fall.....I'm giong into medical school this fall and I've talked to a lot of doctors. Many have told me this career path sucks, many say it is amazing, but for me I want to not have any regrets. So I hope a post on SDN does not dissuade people from pursuing their dreams. Shadow doctors, gain experience, and see if you really like it. All people are different. Just b/c one person hates it, doesn't mean you will
 
+1. The post that the OP gave has been one I've read A LOT of times on this website. And I don't know if I speak for most pre-meds, but everyone is aware (or atleast I am) of the negatives that come with this career. However, I do feel for the time put in this is a FAR more lucrative career as compared to others that require similar time....

Law School - Pretty much need to go to a Top 20 school if you want those high paying corporate/big firm jobs. The average salary is ****. So while being a lawyer has a higher ceiling than being a doctor, vast majority of lawyers don't have it that good.

PhD- Again not very lucrative at all. Few get faculty positions and even then gaining tenure takes SOOOO LONG. If you work at a big name private school like Stanford then you'll be pretty decently compensated. But say you are at UC Berkeley or a big name public institution, chances are you are making 70K max.... Lecturers/Associate Professors even less.... With the current economic situation, many Phds are doing entry level lab assistant jobs...

Veterinary Medicine- To be honest, I don't know much about this field. But the quote post says 70K, which sucks. B/c vets have a 4 year program as well (also I hear it is very competitive to get into vet school).

MBA- This field probably has the highest ceiling, but again you have to be a Stanford/Harvard/Sloan/U Penn grad to really make a lot of money. Vast majority of MBAs don't do crap with their degree.

The positive of having an MD is that it provides MUCH more stability. Sure there are parts of it that suck. But at the end of the day, few doctors are unemployed (if any?). I can't even begin to tell you the number of people i know who are graduating MBA/JD etc. who are worried they won't have a job this fall.....I'm giong into medical school this fall and I've talked to a lot of doctors. Many have told me this career path sucks, many say it is amazing, but for me I want to not have any regrets. So I hope a post on SDN does not dissuade people from pursuing their dreams. Shadow doctors, gain experience, and see if you really like it. All people are different. Just b/c one person hates it, doesn't mean you will

Just to add, graduate vets typically make in the 50-60k range out of school. If you do a residency/internship, it can be as low as 30k a YEAR. And they have more debt than you guys do in many cases.
 
Yes, that statement is true. For a hospital, an NP is cheaper than a physician to employ. BUT, and this is the part that you don't understand, the NP costs the system (i.e. you, me, joe taxpayer, Medicare, government, pretty much everyone but the hospital) a lot more b/c of the excessively unindicated referrals, tests, scans that they order. That is how they drive up the costs of healthcare. Hospital wins, we lose. Now is that too hard to understand for you?

Yes, and that's capitalism. Just like insurance wins and you lose. And the lawyer wins and you lose. YOU still aren't getting it. You talk like I support doctor nurses when I don't and I've made that clear. What I have a problem with is the fact that you complain about the government regulating healthcare, but every time you complain about all these things that cost you time and money, you're advocating for government.

Lawyers and their clients go after doctors for every little thing. Medical schools charge an exorbitant, ever-increasing sum of tuition every single year for the same product. Hospitals hire NPs and PAs for less than it would cost them to hire you. That's capitalism. It's not about society or "us" winning, it's about profit for the individuals who can make a profit from it. It turns out that this unbridled, unregulated system is actually bad for doctors. Whodathunk.

But whenever you bring up the government, it's to talk about how they're going to make everything 8 hundred thousand million billion times worse and need to keep out of everything for our own good.
 
Great posts and I think it makes for a very enlightening conversation.

I wish there was something we could do about the insane cost of medical school.

I normally agree with L2D 100%, but I don't think that the average medical student would get into a top tier law school. Having taken the LSAT and MCAT, I can tell you the two tests are significantly different. My percentile on the LSAT was significantly lower than my percentile on the MCAT.

Well, this doesn't necessarily prove or disprove anything. Given how vigorously premeds study for the MCAT, it wouldn't be odd to expect them to do well on the LSAT if they studied with the same vigor. Sure both tests call on different knowledge bases but there's no reason to assume that one test's knowledge base is unapproachable for students who studied for the other.
 
Yes, and that's capitalism. Just like insurance wins and you lose. And the lawyer wins and you lose. YOU still aren't getting it. You talk like I support doctor nurses when I don't and I've made that clear. What I have a problem with is the fact that you complain about the government regulating healthcare, but every time you complain about all these things that cost you time and money, you're advocating for government.

Lawyers and their clients go after doctors for every little thing. Medical schools charge an exorbitant, ever-increasing sum of tuition every single year for the same product. Hospitals hire NPs and PAs for less than it would cost them to hire you. That's capitalism. It's not about society or "us" winning, it's about profit for the individuals who can make a profit from it. It turns out that this unbridled, unregulated system is actually bad for doctors. Whodathunk.

But whenever you bring up the government, it's to talk about how they're going to make everything 8 hundred thousand million billion times worse and need to keep out of everything for our own good.


I wanted to bring these issues to light. The fact that more than one person has categorically mentioned that they found this thread quite useful makes it entirely worth it.

And regarding govt. regulation, why do you keep trying to dumb it down by categorizing it as a "you are either with us (govt) or against us (govt)" issue? I have simply pointed out the ways in which they have managed to screw things up and how they can get start addressing it.
 
Well, this doesn't necessarily prove or disprove anything. Given how vigorously premeds study for the MCAT, it wouldn't be odd to expect them to do well on the LSAT if they studied with the same vigor. Sure both tests call on different knowledge bases but there's no reason to assume that one test's knowledge base is unapproachable for students who studied for the other.

There isn't any reason to assume anything either way. Sure, it may be unfair to assume that someone who did well on the MCAT would necessarily do mediocre/bad on the LSAT. But it's pure speculation that studying with the same rigor for the LSAT as one would for the MCAT would lead to a similar percentile or high score. There is no way to quantify that a medical doctor would inherently be one of the top lawyers making six figures, b/c they "would have worked just as hard in law." One could completely bomb the LSAT despite working very hard and score a 40 on the MCAT if their intelligence and aptitude was primarily in the sciences. When it comes to different standardized tests and different careers, hard work is not the only factor that determines how well one performs.
 
Again, let me reiterate how foolish it is to assume that because one does well at their college(which could be Tier1-3) majoring in communications or psych and scored high on a test that tests the basic sciences understanding and Reading comprehension that you will be successful in other careers.

LSAT is not the same as the MCAT. And you don't have to have really high stats to be a doctor go a low tiered D.O or the Caribbean and you are one your way to at least being a FP. Also their are PLENTY people who have 30+ and 3.65 GPAs that do not get in anywhere. So does that mean they can easily succeed in another field?

Also if I make a great leap and assume that those who could go to Medschool could get those 140k jobs then I would have to assume they would most likely work in New York, Chicago, etc... Places where rent is pretty high. Also since about 60% of allopathic grads go to specialties and they could be practicing in a great deal of places after residency making 150K+ in places that have low costs of living and also they also control the hours that they work depending on the specialty.

Again Vetschool is as hard as Med and it is also just as hard to get into (actually harder since Med has osteopathic and Caribbean) have the same amount of debt work around 60 hours in residency and make 50-75k.
 
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so what is the point of this thread exactly? discourage all premeds to not go into medicine? How is that going to fix the problem? and how is no future physicians a good thing for society...
 
You think we should transition to a cash-only system, AND you think people should be able to get that $10,000 workup if they need it? I don't know of a single person with $10,000 to spare on a heart attack.

Dummy, dummy, listen dummy... if the system were a universal cash only system, those prices would obviously have to fall. The demand for those "workups" aren't totally inelastic schmuck. I was trying to read this thread for enjoyment but I hate 16 year old kids like you who respond to people who are obviously more educated and experienced on a certain issue like you know what the hell you're talking about.
 
Wait, so remarking on the idiocy of saying NP/PAs cost the system tons of money and then in the VERY NEXT SENTENCE saying they are hired to cut costs, is naive?


Getting an appendectomy in some gutter hospital in Tijuana saves you money in the short run but it actually costs more in the long run when its botched and you need further surgery to fix it.

You lack the ability to understand and evaluate arguments.👎
 
Getting an appendectomy in some gutter hospital in Tijuana saves you money in the short run but it actually costs more in the long run when its botched and you need further surgery to fix it.

You lack the ability to understand and evaluate arguments.👎

PA and NPs are used primarily for primary care. Your surgery analogy was poor. They don't rack up on costs in the long term.
 
PA and NPs are used primarily for primary care. Your surgery analogy was poor. They don't rack up on costs in the long term.

That's because the central theme of the analogy was about short sightedness, surgery has nothing to do with my overall point. Sad that you didn't understand that.

Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
 
If you're truly a pre-health student, let me know how that living room looks in 9 years, when you're finally supposed to make that salary you've been counting on, but care has been rationed so severely that you'll have no films to read and bill for. The scans that the government DOES deem necessary will be outsourced to India.

Goooo radiology! Oh, and people will think that you and the rad tech are the exact same person. A radiologist is a doctor? Reallllly?!?!

Well, in the tech's defense, most techs I know are as able to diagnose the patient as the radiologists.
 
It's worth it. Medicine is stable, interesting and sure every profession has ups and down.
 
On another note, what if a bunch of scientists come up with a medicine that alters the DNA and cures all diseases? Then there will be no need for docs and all our education will be moot 🙁🙁🙁
 
I don't give a shet about any of that because I'm gonna be ballin' as radiologist partner. Word.

Check out my future living room.
Just a small glimpse of what's to come.

2ptujwm.jpg

Now that is an ottoman empire...
 
Dummy, dummy, listen dummy... if the system were a universal cash only system, those prices would obviously have to fall.

Doubtful. Currently the biggest revenue sink in healthcare (by far) is the elderly, and the massive expenditure necessary to administer care to them could not possibly be derived from cash-only. Right now this care is subsidized directly by Medicare and indirectly be all other hospital services that are profitable.

In order to remain open, a given hospital would have to either shut down its ICUs and turn away sick patients, or increase fees on other services (thus mitigating the presumed savings of a cash-only system). We have already seen this to some extent, where hospitals lose profitable business to competing clinics and are forced to compensate in unpalatable ways.
 
Well, in the tech's defense, most techs I know are as able to diagnose the patient as the radiologists.


No...they THINK they are.

Like everyone always says...they don't know how much they don't know.
 
There isn't any reason to assume anything either way. Sure, it may be unfair to assume that someone who did well on the MCAT would necessarily do mediocre/bad on the LSAT. But it's pure speculation that studying with the same rigor for the LSAT as one would for the MCAT would lead to a similar percentile or high score. There is no way to quantify that a medical doctor would inherently be one of the top lawyers making six figures, b/c they "would have worked just as hard in law." One could completely bomb the LSAT despite working very hard and score a 40 on the MCAT if their intelligence and aptitude was primarily in the sciences. When it comes to different standardized tests and different careers, hard work is not the only factor that determines how well one performs.



You seem to be working under the assumption that the distribution of law students have an innate intelligence that predisposes them to do well in law. I contend that large groups of students tend to have similar base levels of intellectual ability and they are only differentiated in the direction to which they focus their intellect. It is thus reasonable to assume that if we took one group that has a tendency to work hard and study/prepare vigorously that they would score comparatively better than a second group who does not do the same.

The MCAT does not test what you seem to think it does. It does not test "intelligence and aptitude in the sciences." It's a reasoning test and thus why people who are not science majors or have taken lots of classes can still score in the top top percentile.
 
No...they THINK they are.

Like everyone always says...they don't know how much they don't know.
I have full access to the rads' transcribed reports, and most of the time, for simple CT/MRI studies the techs are dead-on.

Although I do agree with you. One can't know what one doesn't know.
 
Again Vetschool is as hard as Med and it is also just as hard to get into (actually harder since Med has osteopathic and Caribbean) have the same amount of debt work around 60 hours in residency and make 50-75k.
Even the top ranking schools (Cornell, Colorado State, UGA) have marginal students (when compared to MD schools). When I was in graduate school at Colorado State, I knew numerous students who were admitted with a 3.5 and a ~1000 GRE. A 1000 GRE is a joke. That's like accepting a 23 MCAT to a top 5 MD school.

Who are you kidding? Vet school is not as hard as medical school. With 3 vets in my family, they will be the first to admit that we (medical students) cover way more material than the vet counterpart. We also work a lot harder during our clinical years.

PS. You can go Caribbean for Vet school (http://www.sgu.edu/programs.html)

On top of that, our tuition is double that of our in-state Vet school (I'm at the state MD school).
 
I have full access to the rads' transcribed reports, and most of the time, for simple CT/MRI studies the techs are dead-on.

Although I do agree with you. One can't know what one doesn't know.

Lol.. I wouldn't even want a tech to tell me that it was a "normal head" CT or MRI. They lack almost all of the training in differential diagnosis that a MD has. By saying crap like that, you totally discredit the 9+ years of education that a radiologist has before he ever takes his boards.
 
I have full access to the rads' transcribed reports, and most of the time, for simple CT/MRI studies the techs are dead-on.

So the techs are right most of the time for simple studies. That sounds like some powerful expertise they wield. I would certainly want them making semi-educated guesses over my own scans.

skiddoc said:
Although I do agree with you. One can't know what one doesn't know.

With enough training and experience one can absolutely feel the cusp of one's knowledge, and therefore know when to pull the rip cord and either hedge or get a second opinion. It's the people who are undertrained and/or inexperienced who can stumble right off the cliff.
 
Even the top ranking schools (Cornell, Colorado State, UGA) have marginal students (when compared to MD schools). When I was in graduate school at Colorado State, I knew numerous students who were admitted with a 3.5 and a ~1000 GRE. A 1000 GRE is a joke. That's like accepting a 23 MCAT to a top 5 MD school.

Who are you kidding? Vet school is not as hard as medical school. With 3 vets in my family, they will be the first to admit that we (medical students) cover way more material than the vet counterpart. We also work a lot harder during our clinical years.

PS. You can go Caribbean for Vet school (http://www.sgu.edu/programs.html)

On top of that, our tuition is double that of our in-state Vet school (I'm at the state MD school).

I know people who get accepted with a 21 into D.O numerous people. Also you can't compare GRE to MCAT. Vets had the VCAT but they disbanded it. And vets learn the same amount of material as medstudents look at their course schedule. Your vetstudents were saying that to appease you not because they seriously believed it.
 
No. They're definitely not.

Keep in mind that under skiddoc's name it clearly reads "comic relief." 😉

Edit: Or maybe it's supposed to be comic relief? It's actually "comic relife."

On another note, what if a bunch of scientists come up with a medicine that alters the DNA and cures all diseases? Then there will be no need for docs and all our education will be moot 🙁🙁🙁

But then the scientists, along with the pharmaceutical and health care industries, would all be unemployed.
 
Well, in the tech's defense, most techs I know are as able to diagnose the patient as the radiologists.
This is one of those times where it was smarter to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
 
Before someone calls out troll, check my previous posts to know that I am definitely not one. Additionally, I just graduated medical school and therefore
have no vested interest in dissuading others from applying b/c I surely am not competing with you. Now to the topic, why is not worth it? Well, let me give
you a little background info. I worked hard in med school, did well, and this year I matched into a competitively field that is amongst the best paid specialties in medicine, and one that I find to be very fascinating and intellectually challenging. I am glad it worked out. However, it will LONG time before I will be 'rolling in the dough' especially with reimbursements being cut every year. Although I was excited when I got accepted, the exicetement has been fading away every year as I learn more and more how frustrating it has become to practice medicine. Let me outline some of the reasons why it ain't worth it IMO.

1) High debt. The avg. student's debt at the end of state funded med. school is about $150,000. If I recall correctly, that of a private school is ~$170,000. Interest rates start at 6.9% for subsidized loans and go up for private loans. Your med school loan cannot be discharged for life! i.e. this is not credit card debt which you can wipe out by claiming bankruptcy. Read the thread in the General residency forum about the MD who didn't pay his loans for about 20 years and how his license was suspended without him realizing it. Then he was arrested for prescribing medicines without a license.

2) Government takeover of healthcare. The medical system is going broke. Costs will continue to spiral out of control because docs will keep on ordering
every single test under the sun to "CYA" (cover your @$$). That just means that Medicare and private insurers will keep finding new ways to refuse
reimbursement to docs. Do some reading about the SGR and DRA (look it up on google/wiki). Did you know that just three days ago, a 21% reimbursement cut went into play? Yes, congress has been playing this game with the docs since the 90's. They would like nothing more than to have doctors working as govt. peons. Don't believe it? Ask any physician what they think about govt. run healthcare.

3) Lack of tort reform. Meaningful reform is probably not going to happen because the trial lawyers lobby is one of the biggest contributors to Democrats (and they take care of the Repubs too!). Politicians know better than to bite the hand that feeds them. That just means that docs will continue to get sued for the most frivolous reasons. Have some time on your hand? Read about the frivolous lawsuits and their outcomes http://www.jvra.com/ Even if docs win these suits, they still lose b/c of all the years invested in fighting these suits. And countersuing the patient and the lawyer is know to be a waste of time. Not to mention the ridiculous premiums that can go upwards of $250,000 per year in the most litigous parts of the country. The intellectual part about medicine dissapears when you are ordering shotgun tests for every patient, b/c even though 99 out 100 times your judgement may be correct, the one time you miss that intra-cranial bleed b/c you didn't think the patient needed a CT will come back to bite you with vengeance.

4) The dumbing down of healthcare. Nurse Practitioners and Physician's Assistants are gaining more and more independence every day. NPs are transitioning to DNPs which means they are going to Dr. Nurse and can call themselves Dr. XYZ in many states. NPs can also practice independently in many states. Many of them are arrogant and spread misinformation about how they know as much primary care physicians. The nurse's union is also VERY strong and B.O. loves them and has gone to bat for them. Everyone in the hospital wears a long white coat, except the medical student. Many hospital patients can't tell the doctor apart from the technician apart from the janitor (not to knock on janitors). Lets face it, NPs and PAs are the future of primary care. And all of you certainly can't be specialists b/c there aren't enough spots. Which means that you will be a 'Primary care Provider', not a 'Primary care Physician'.

5) Many patients are not appreciative of the care we provide. Many are abusive of the free care they receive. For example, spend one night working in the E.D. and you will see tons of repeat customers who complain of back/chest/stomach pain, then get the million dollar work up, get their opiod fix and leave, only to come back few days later. ER cannot turn away these patients without a proper workup. Lot of these patients do have several co-morbidities thus you cannot just blow them off b/c 1 out of 100 times, they actually might have some serious pathology that needs to be addressed. Thus the docs are stuck in a catch 22. Lot of these patients are self-pay (i.e. no pay). Sending them to collections isn't helpful b/c their credit histor is already mucked up to begin with. Patients think you are overpaid but they don't know all the hard work you have done and all the debt you have accumulated to be where you are.

6) The red tape is ridiculous. Ever try to get an MRI or CT for your clinic patient? Insurance companies will do everything they can to preven that from happening. You may have to argue on the phone with some punk who has been trained by the company to DENY BABY DENY anything that will cut into the companies bottom line: their profits! When working in the E.D., I'd see many patients who were told by their primary doc to go to the ER to get a CT scan b/c it was more convenient than to hassle with the insurance companies. NOt to mention, all the ridiculous forms that docs have to fill out every day to C.Y.A.


These are just some of the things that I've experienced or learned from other physicians during my last 4 years. I still have a lot of doubt in my mind about the future of Medicine. Even though I have matched in one of the 'nicer' fields, it won't be so nice when I am out practicing. Money isn't everything and I wouldn't even mind working for less money, but I cannot put up with the bureaucracy that has permeated medicine. Everyone wants to be the Monday morning quarter back that judges physicians but none of those chumps know what it is like to practice Medicine. Nonetheless, I do find Medicine to very interesting but unfortunately, for many docs, practicing 'real medicine' makes up only a fraction of their day. With that said, I implore you to talk to as many physicians as you can, in private practice and in the hospital setting. Shadow them, ask them whether they would recommend medicine to their children, whether they are happy with the current state of their field, whether they would quit if they could. If after that, you still want to practice medicine, then who am I to stop you? I wish someone had made a thread like this when I was applying. Maybe they did and I never paid attention. But if you are reading this, you have no excuse. Good luck to you!

100% true. Pay attention premeds.

Gluon, don't argue with dumb kids who don't have any idea what they are getting into. Most of them have been lying to themselves about their true motives to pursue medicine to the point that they started to believe their own lies. Once they are in medschool and see the harsh reality, they will sing a different tune. Instead of arguing with them, give them facts and anegdotes. You have experience, they don't.

I am in similar situation as you, only a few years ahead. I got good residency and fellowship, and a very good job offer. And the final analysis of whether it was all 'worth it' still ends up in red.
 
6) The red tape is ridiculous.

With that said, I implore you to talk to as many physicians as you can, in private practice and in the hospital setting. Shadow them, ask them whether they would recommend medicine to their children, whether they are happy with the current state of their field, whether they would quit if they could. If after that, you still want to practice medicine, then who am I to stop you?

I am an intensivist. If I want an MRI on my patient, what I do is order it.

And, lots of premeds shadow me all the time. I do recommend medicine to my children (but they will make up their own mind I think, like all children). I am reasonably happy with my field (neonatology). I have no intent on quitting for as long as I am healthy and able to work. What would I do? Sit on the internet all day?

thanks for asking!
 
Once they are in medschool and see the harsh reality, they will sing a different tune. Instead of arguing with them, give them facts and anegdotes. You have experience, they don't.

I am in similar situation as you, only a few years ahead. I got good residency and fellowship, and a very good job offer. And the final analysis of whether it was all 'worth it' still ends up in red.

This is why you should really see how the rest of the world operates before going to medical school. I got a PhD after college, and witnessed firsthand the life of a minnow: no direction, no prospects, and no hope but to be eaten.

Compared to that, medicine has been wonderful. Predictable training path, well above average career stability, and I have landed a well paying job in a cool part of the country. Of course it helps that I actually enjoy what I do.

Had I not gone this route I would likely either be finishing postdoc #2 or teaching intro science to a bunch of snot-nosed freshman at some liberal arts college. God, that gives me the willies just thinking about it.
 
I am an intensivist. If I want an MRI on my patient, what I do is order it.

And, lots of premeds shadow me all the time. I do recommend medicine to my children (but they will make up their own mind I think, like all children). I am reasonably happy with my field (neonatology). I have no intent on quitting for as long as I am healthy and able to work. What would I do? Sit on the internet all day?

thanks for asking!

thanks for responding! It's very encouraging 👍
 
Stupid question, but couldn't a PCP earn more by just ordering more tests and billing the insurance more?
 
100% true. Pay attention premeds.

Gluon, don't argue with dumb kids who don't have any idea what they are getting into. Most of them have been lying to themselves about their true motives to pursue medicine to the point that they started to believe their own lies. Once they are in medschool and see the harsh reality, they will sing a different tune. Instead of arguing with them, give them facts and anegdotes. You have experience, they don't.

I am in similar situation as you, only a few years ahead. I got good residency and fellowship, and a very good job offer. And the final analysis of whether it was all 'worth it' still ends up in red.

And what exactly would you have done rather than medicine....whats the chance another job would have been lacking in other area and you would have had the "grass is greener" feeling.

Granted I only start med school in 1.5 months, I can't claim the experience nor the perspective you have.....all I have to say is from an outsider view is that most people in medicine are competitive and overachievers.

I talk to people in investment banking to law to medicine, everything thinks the grass is greener elsewhere.

Is it possible its not the job but rather the personality type of people in medicine? (in 6 yrs i may eat my words....but this is the outsiders prospective at this point....there is no perfect job....pick one where you can deal w/ the up and downs)
 
This is why you should really see how the rest of the world operates before going to medical school. I got a PhD after college, and witnessed firsthand the life of a minnow: no direction, no prospects, and no hope but to be eaten.

Compared to that, medicine has been wonderful. Predictable training path, well above average career stability, and I have landed a well paying job in a cool part of the country. Of course it helps that I actually enjoy what I do.

Had I not gone this route I would likely either be finishing postdoc #2 or teaching intro science to a bunch of snot-nosed freshman at some liberal arts college. God, that gives me the willies just thinking about it.

Your point? That career in science is even tougher and less financially rewarding than in medicine? Agreed, and no it doesn't make medicine any more appealing.

People get PhD because they (1) want to do research, or (2) want to teach, or (3) want to build on that. In cases of #1 and #2 you can expect to meagre paycheck and fierce competition for jobs. In case #3, you are an enterpreneur.
 
thanks for responding! It's very encouraging 👍

Anyone who thinks that all docs hate their work need to spend some time talking to pediatric academic specialists.

And, go Buckeyes! I could spend my retirement watching the Buckeyes pound Michigan every year in football....😛
 
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