Did anyone choose a DO acceptance over an MD acceptance? Why?

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Do you have similar data for the DO ortho residencies?
 
Lokhtar said:
Do you have similar data for the DO ortho residencies?
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No, sorry I don't. I don't even know if the AOA or their matching service releases data. I guess you could check their website. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
 
This kind of puts a rest to the "is it harder for a DO" argument for me. I emailed a doc i worked with in the research lab at UCSD. He is now chief of sports medicine and residency director at University of Southern Florida. I asked him the questions we'd beend discussing, and just in case anybody still had any doubt...this did it for me. This was his response:

Interesting that you ask the question about DO vs MD degree for ortho,
because just this past weekend we did our interviews for the four
resident positions at USF (we had about 500 applications). I think it
is substantially more difficult to get into an ortho residency with a DO
degree (though it is possible: we interviewed a couple of DOs).

My concern with DO training is that the last two years are inconsistent
within and between schools, compared to MD training which is much more
uniform. So residency programs don't really know what they are getting,
and therefore there's a bias against the DO graduates. DO graduates
also don't take the same board tests, which programs use as a key
metric. Without those exams, it makes things much tougher to get an
interview.

As far as the application of OMM to orthopaedic surgery care: this is
not really important at all. What you learn as a resident is far more
important that the things learned in med school or osteopath school. I
think OMM is more relevant to those who choose primary care, and if that
is your goal then I don't have any good advice to provide. I think
primary care docs would be in a better position to tell you.
 
Don't forget these

I'm actually surprised that any D.O.'s get into the hard residencies. If I was a M.D. student or person in charge, I'd be annoyed that I have all these D.O.'s applying to my program, while all the D.O. programs are closed off to M.D.'s. In my opinion, both sets of residencies should be open to both sets of students. Let the best person get the position.
 
so
Lokhtar said:
Don't forget these

I'm actually surprised that any D.O.'s get into the hard residencies. If I was a M.D. student or person in charge, I'd be annoyed that I have all these D.O.'s applying to my program, while all the D.O. programs are closed off to M.D.'s. In my opinion, both sets of residencies should be open to both sets of students. Let the best person get the position.
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sure its annoying, but thats not a reason to discount a good DO applicant just because you disagree with the system. that being said, i do agree w/ what you said. maybe they are just trying to level out the playing field b/c they know its harder for a DO to get into a competetive MD residency b/c of the bias? i dunno, just speculating
 
Lokhtar said:
Don't forget these

I'm actually surprised that any D.O.'s get into the hard residencies. If I was a M.D. student or person in charge, I'd be annoyed that I have all these D.O.'s applying to my program, while all the D.O. programs are closed off to M.D.'s. In my opinion, both sets of residencies should be open to both sets of students. Let the best person get the position.
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DO students get into competitive residencies because they consistently do a good job and many programs see them as having a track record of hard work and success. The US MD's don't particularly care about DO residencies, which are considered generally inferior to the ACGME. If DO residencies opened to MD's they likely would be flooded with IMG and subpar US MD applicants.
 
DO Anes said:
DO students get into competitive residencies because they consistently do a good job and many programs see them as having a track record of hard work and success. The US MD's don't particularly care about DO residencies, which are considered generally inferior to the ACGME. If DO residencies opened to MD's they likely would be flooded with IMG and subpar US MD applicants.
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For things like primary care, I don't disagree. Though there are residencies such as Dermatology which are ultra-competitive in the M.D. world and turn away lots of qualified applicants, and I would bet you that you'd get plenty of UMLE 240+ applicants for those spots.
 
ryserr21 said:
This kind of puts a rest to the "is it harder for a DO" argument for me. I emailed a doc i worked with in the research lab at UCSD. He is now chief of sports medicine and residency director at University of Southern Florida. I asked him the questions we'd beend discussing, and just in case anybody still had any doubt...this did it for me. This was his response:

snip

As far as the application of OMM to orthopaedic surgery care: this is
not really important at all. What you learn as a resident is far more
important that the things learned in med school or osteopath school. I
think OMM is more relevant to those who choose primary care, and if that
is your goal then I don't have any good advice to provide. I think
primary care docs would be in a better position to tell you.
Click to expand...
I would like to see how he feels about the more established DO schools (PCOM, NYCOM, Ohio, etc.) since they (not to discredit other schools) have highly established reputations and great rotations.
 
ahaydt said:
I would like to see how he feels about the more established DO schools (PCOM, NYCOM, Ohio, etc.) since they (not to discredit other schools) have highly established reputations and great rotations.
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regarding the snip that you quoted from the email....i didnt get the impression that he was talking poorly about DO programs or challenging their reputations. He was relating OMM specifically to orthopedic surgery, and in his opinion its not really applicable
 
ryserr21 said:
regarding the snip that you quoted from the email....i didnt get the impression that he was talking poorly about DO programs or challenging their reputations. He was relating OMM specifically to orthopedic surgery, and in his opinion its not really applicable
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He wasn't overtly positive though. Seemed a bit uninformed actually ('osteopath school'). However, I think the fact that he interviewed DOs for those small spots out of the hundreds of applicants does say something, and I do think that a lot of established schools have better reputations in regards to 3 and 4th years, but most likely only with programs where DOs have landed residencies in the past.

Also ... isn't it 'orthopaedic ???'
 
JaggerPlate said:
He wasn't overtly positive though. Seemed a bit uninformed actually ('osteopath school'). However, I think the fact that he interviewed DOs for those small spots out of the hundreds of applicants does say something, and I do think that a lot of established schools have better reputations in regards to 3 and 4th years, but most likely only with programs where DOs have landed residencies in the past.

Also ... isn't it 'orthopaedic ???'
Click to expand...

i agree he wasnt overtly positive. seemed like he had the bias he was talking about. he came from UCSD and is HUGE on research, so maybe thats why? i dunno tho. yea i thought the "osteopath school" was kinda weird too, haha.

you can spell it orthopaedic or orthopedic. it doesnt matter
 
ThePiratesse said:
Wow.. So you are basing your opinion on one graduate? As a student, I have to disagree with you on that. OMM is an invaluable tool to many DO's.. just because everyone doesn't use it doesn't mean that having the training in it won't be useful and sharpen your palpation skills. If you believe in the DO philosophy you should at least be open to the possibility that OMM has a place.
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No, OMM is not a joke. The graduate I spoke to is a psychiatrist, so obviously she won't have much use for OMM. I was just frustrated when I wrote this. I apologize.

I really want to go to UNECOM, but 100 grand is a steep premium to pay over my miserable, but well-respected state school. It's easy to say: follow your heart, when the debt is remote enough from you (pre-meds, me 6 months ago) that it isn't staring you in the face. With rising med student debt levels, the slowing economy, declining reimbursements, and the possibility of major health policy reforms that threaten physician salaries---100 grand becomes more important. It's not just 100 grand plus interest out of your pocket, it's also the lost capital gained through wisely investing the saved 100 grand.
 
Lokhtar said:
For things like primary care, I don't disagree. Though there are residencies such as Dermatology which are ultra-competitive in the M.D. world and turn away lots of qualified applicants, and I would bet you that you'd get plenty of UMLE 240+ applicants for those spots.
Click to expand...

For those interested there are osteopathic derm residencies.
 
J1515 said:
For those interested there are osteopathic derm residencies.
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Err, I thought thats what I said in my post...that you'd attract a lot of qualified M.D.'s to the DO dermatology residencies if it was opened up....
 
psych said:
Right now I'm trying to decide whether or not I will choose to go to a DO school in CA (only 2hours from where I'm living now) or if I'll uproot my husband and make him move somewhereI know he will not be happy. 2 of the MD schools I interviewed at are in Philly and Brooklyn. Both places are a little intimidating considering the neighborhoods. I even had my laptop stolen. I'm not excited about worrying about my own safety. My husband also isn't lookingforward to the midwest where the other schools are. He wants to golf year around... I don't know. Hopefully wherever I end up I'll be happy...
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I had a similar situation. I was stuck between wanting to go Des Moines University COM and Philadelphia COM. In the end it came down to where my husband would feel more comfortable. (We chose Philly)

Don't feel like you're sacrificing anything if you stay in CA, and remember that if your husband's unhappy, there's a good chance that it will have an effect on you too. In med school, I don't think you want to have to worry about bickering all the time with your husband.

That's how I made my decision. I figured if he's willing to change his life and move to another city (and country) for me, the least I could do is let him help chose where that is.
 
JaggerPlate said:
He wasn't overtly positive though. Seemed a bit uninformed actually ('osteopath school'). However, I think the fact that he interviewed DOs for those small spots out of the hundreds of applicants does say something, and I do think that a lot of established schools have better reputations in regards to 3 and 4th years, but most likely only with programs where DOs have landed residencies in the past.

Also ... isn't it 'orthopaedic ???'
Click to expand...

The older generation of DOs and MDs both seem to call DO school 'osteopath school'. My mentor, a DO surgeon that graduated from DMU and did his residency at yale, still calls DO school "osteopath school" and DOs "osteopaths". That's just how he was brought up (old school)

AOA is still trying to educate their own DOs to call themselves 'doctors of osteopathic medicine'
 
eichetotheizzo said:
The older generation of DOs and MDs both seem to call DO school 'osteopath school'. My mentor, a DO surgeon that graduated from DMU and did his residency at yale, still calls DO school "osteopath school" and DOs "osteopaths". That's just how he was brought up (old school)

AOA is still trying to educate their own DOs to call themselves 'doctors of osteopathic medicine'
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Hahaha ... yeah. 'Can't teach an old dog new tricks ...' errr something along those lines. I guess it really doesn't matter 'too' much, but I think it's important to include the terms doctor and medicine in there. That's awesome he did his residency at Yale.
 
Well, I have a pre-match at TCOM, and I ranked it above the other two (MD) schools on my match list. So even if I did have a chance of getting an acceptance from either of those schools, I basically said "No, thanks." TCOM is close to home, I like the atmosphere better than at the other two schools, and I'm pretty much impressed with it in just about every way.
 
Ki45toryu said:
Wow...thats an interesting view.
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in general i agree that what riker said is a stupid comment to make, but ive slowly been realizing that if you want to go into a competetive residency like orthopedics (thats what i want to do) or something like that, it would be silly to decline an MD acceptance for a DO acceptance. not b/c its impossible, but b/c it is way harder. i find that fact disgusting, and it makes me sick and i think the system is f'ed up, but it is what it is.

maybe there will be a day when there is no more bias but as of now thats not the case. If all things were equal i would go DO hands down all the way.... and if i wanted to go into primary care i would go DO without a doubt. but as someone who wants to go into orthopedics, it would be reaaaally really hard to decline an acceptance from somewhere like UCSD for any DO school. 😡
 
ryserr21 said:
in general i agree that what riker said is a stupid comment to make, but ive slowly been realizing that if you want to go into a competetive residency like orthopedics (thats what i want to do) or something like that, it would be silly to decline an MD acceptance for a DO acceptance. not b/c its impossible, but b/c it is way harder. i find that fact disgusting, and it makes me sick and i think the system is f'ed up, but it is what it is.

maybe there will be a day when there is no more bias but as of now thats not the case. If all things were equal i would go DO hands down all the way.... and if i wanted to go into primary care i would go DO without a doubt. but as someone who wants to go into orthopedics, it would be reaaaally really hard to decline an acceptance from somewhere like UCSD for any DO school. 😡
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I hear the 'harder' arguement, but it really comes down to the people particular schools accept into their program.

West Virginia, for example, probably doesnt match as many people for surgery/anae as many MD schools. This probably has more to do with the fact the applicants for those matches dont stack up acedemically(GPA and/or standardized scores) as opposed to the fact they went to a DO school....not to mention West Virginia puts a great emphasis on bringing in students who want to practice primary care.

I am just using West Virginia as an example...so not knocking them...but DO schools I look at have competitive match percentages that go on to specialize.

If you are a solid student, it wont matter what school you go to. Honestly. Thats why there are standardized board tests....dont be worried about not getting into a particular residency because of your school....be worried about the standardized USMLE/COMLEX.
 
so you've finally come full circle?

that being said, if you apply to the top do schools, you should have an easier time than the newer schools. PCOM and KCOM matches come to mind...to say that it doesn't matter what school, it kind of does. your rotations do indeed determine your residencies. basically, you learn about this stuff in the admissions process of why people choose schools outside of location alone.
 
Ki45toryu said:
I hear the 'harder' arguement, but it really comes down to the people particular schools accept into their program.

West Virginia, for example, probably doesnt match as many people for surgery/anae as many MD schools. This probably has more to do with the fact the applicants for those matches dont stack up acedemically(GPA and/or standardized scores) as opposed to the fact they went to a DO school....not to mention West Virginia puts a great emphasis on bringing in students who want to practice primary care.
Click to expand...

you dont think USMLE/COMLEX scores are at all a reflection of the quality of education? yes you can do well on the USMLE if you study and hard and bla bla bla, but the point is that it will be easier to match as an MD regardless. and you are wrong about the fact that its not that they went to a DO school. i've heard it from the mouth of a resident director. these are his exact words.

"My concern with DO training is that the last two years are inconsistent
within and between schools, compared to MD training which is much more
uniform. So residency programs don't really know what they are getting,
and therefore there's a bias against the DO graduates."

in a later email he says: "I still think there is bias against DO background (when it comes to surgery residency)"

Ki45toryu said:
DO schools I look at have competitive match percentages that go on to specialize.
Click to expand...

i'm sure they do, and thats great. i'm talking about orthopedic surgery. the match percentage for a DO into orthopedic surgery is LOW...very low. someone earlier posted a reference that showed of 614 or so MD spots for orthopedics only 2 were taken by a DO. obviously that varies from year to year, but you cant ignore it.

Ki45toryu said:
If you are a solid student, it wont matter what school you go to. Honestly. Thats why there are standardized board tests....dont be worried about not getting into a particular residency because of your school....be worried about the standardized USMLE/COMLEX.
Click to expand...

i do agree that if you are a solid student you will do well wherever you go. but thats not the point. the point is it is significantly more difficult to match into ortho as a DO, so if you are competetive for an MD spot then why not take it? And I am worried about the USMLE/COMLEX. I'd imagine that i'd do much better on the USMLE if i didn't have to study for the COMLEX as well. Not to mention that the COMLEX is offered a week or so before the USMLE...i imagine thats a pretty stressful two weeks
 
ahaydt said:
Ryserr, my question still stands. It may be on the first page though.
Click to expand...

you could have just asked the question again, but nooooooo you sent me on an egg hunt to the first page of the thread. all to find out that your
question was on the 2nd page. some people, i tell ya 🙄. just kidding

i never emailed him about the more established schools that you mentioned, however i'm sure if there was one that he felt there was no bias against he would have mentioned it. its unfortunate, but what can you do?
 
VictorsLilSecrt said:
As irritating as it may seem to those here, I will go to 3 Carib schools over any DO school. Don't hate me for it.
Click to expand...

DO_residents_in_ACGME_total.jpg


BLUE D.O. residents in ACGME (allopathic) programs
RED D.O. residents in AOA (osteopathic) programs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image😀O_residents_in_ACGME_total.jpg
 
ryserr21 said:
i'm sure they do, and thats great. i'm talking about orthopedic surgery. the match percentage for a DO into orthopedic surgery is LOW...very low. someone earlier posted a reference that showed of 614 or so MD spots for orthopedics only 2 were taken by a DO. obviously that varies from year to year, but you cant ignore it.
Click to expand...

That probably because ortho surg is one specialty that happens to have many AOA accredited spots. Meaning, you aren't competing with M.D. students to get them. Most of the D.O. students interested in ortho surg go for the D.O. spots, bypassing the MD ortho residencies all together.

bth
 
bth7 said:
That probably because ortho surg is one specialty that happens to have many AOA accredited spots. Meaning, you aren't competing with M.D. students to get them. Most of the D.O. students interested in ortho surg go for the D.O. spots, bypassing the MD ortho residencies all together.

bth
Click to expand...
Doubtful. More probable that DO's aren't competitive. But you already know this...
 
VictorsLilSecrt said:
100% ---------------------------------

dashed black -- M.D.'s (carib & u.s.) in acgme residencies.
Click to expand...

Actually, a higher percentage of D.O. that apply to ACGME residencies get accepted compared with U.S. Carib M.D.'s.

And no, not 100% of Carib students get accepted.
 
VictorsLilSecrt said:
Doubtful. More probable that DO's aren't competitive. But you already know this...
Click to expand...

They are getting spots in orthopedic surgery . . . I wouldn't call that "non-competitive."
 
bth7 said:
Actually, a higher percentage of D.O. that apply to ACGME residencies get accepted compared with U.S. Carib M.D.'s.

And no, not 100% of Carib students get accepted.
Click to expand...

Nor do 100% of DO's get "accepted." Certainly not to acgme, and not even to their own aoa. Weak.
 
bth7 said:
They are getting spots in orthopedic surgery . . . I wouldn't call that "non-competitive."
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2 out of 614? That might even be your wikipedia definition of "noncompetitive." 😉
 
VictorsLilSecrt said:
2 out of 614? That might even be your wikipedia definition of "noncompetitive." 😉
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Like I said, that's not counting the 70 D.O. spots in ortho surg. Alll 70 of those residents will be orthopedic surgeons as well. They are simply training in residencies that aren't part of the NRMP, so they aren't counted in NRMP statistics.

bth
 
bth7 said:
Yes, but compared with Carib M.D. applicants, a higher percentage of D.O. applicants get accepted to ACGME residencies.

Just the facts from the 2007 NRMP applicant pool my friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRMP

🙂

bth
Click to expand...
From the top 3-4 schools? Nope. Like I said, I would pick the top 3 carib schools over any DO school, for this very reason.
 
bth7 said:
Like I said, that's not counting the 70 D.O. spots in ortho surg. Alll 70 of those residents will be orthopedic surgeons as well. They are simply training in residencies that aren't part of the NRMP, so they aren't counted in NRMP statistics.

bth
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But they won't be eligible for board certification -- at least not by the board that matters for employment. They'll be Osteo-board certified, which is akin to begging for employment in BFE. Get it right, bth.
 
VictorsLilSecrt said:
But they won't be eligible for board certification -- at least not by the board that matters for employment. They'll be Osteo-board certified, which is akin to begging for employment in BFE. Get it right, bth.
Click to expand...

Actually, graduates of AOA and ACGME residency training programs are both eligible to sit for the allopathic boards in their specialty. The specialty boards are separate entities from the ACGME.

bth
 
bth7 said:
Actually, graduates of AOA and ACGME residency training programs are both eligible to sit for the allopathic boards in their specialty. The specialty boards are separate entities from the ACGME.

bth
Click to expand...
The good ol' boy got this one dead wrong. AOA grads are not eligible to sit for many of the ACGME boards. That's why they're largely marginalized, and have employment problems. I'm truly amazed that someone so far into an osteopathic education does not know (or does not want to admit to knowing) this.
 
Victor= tool that's trying to comfort himself because he's going to have to go to a Carib. school~~~ (high BR, Low GPA/MCAT perhaps?)

Best leave him to his arguement and not give him fuel for his troll-fire... The simple fact that he implied that DO orthopods are going to have trouble finding work.... pfft...
 
Darktide said:
Victor= tool that's trying to comfort himself because he's going to have to go to a Carib. school~~~ (high BR, Low GPA/MCAT perhaps?)

Best leave him to his arguement and not give him fuel for his troll-fire... The simple fact that he implied that DO orthopods are going to have trouble finding work.... pfft...
Click to expand...

👍
'nuff said
 
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