Did I go through all this to be replaced by a nurse?

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bustbones26 said:
I love LECOM people. Back in my days at LECOM, I studied at home. I didn't feel it necessary to go to Mercyhurst Library, Barnes&Nobles and show off to the Erie community, they are not impressed by the way.

Finish up med school and when you go out and start your internship you will be more than happy that there are midlevels there to help you out. Do you think when I did my CCU rotation as an intern do you think that my cardiology attendings sat down with me and showed me in detail how to perform GXT's. Do you think that any of my attendings even did GXT's? Oh hell no! They were in the cath lab doing more fascinating stuff. If anybody comes to my hospital with the attitude that they deserve to treat midlevels like a$$ because medical school was hell, they are going to look like a highly educated ***** in front of a patient if the PA-C doesn't show them how to run the treadmill equipment.

I will be the first to admit here that any CRNA at my hospital could kick my a$$ at putting in lines and intubating people. However, they are more than happy to show me their skills and help me if I want it. Try to pull the "leave me alone I know what I am doing, after all, I am a doc and you're not $hit on them", well, just stand back and watch how many lines you F$%k up!

As I have progressed in my career as a resident in the military, I am now welcomed with the skill of coding my own inpatient consults and admissions, arranging follow up appointments for patients after discharge, and doing all of that social crap like arranging transfers, rehabs, etc. Boy, I would sure appreciate one of those midlevels that does all of this like I have seen on other various inpatient teams.

I can't explain it to you, but just you wait and see how damn scary it is to be in the ICU and trying to manage a ventilator without the help of an RT. They will be the first to let you know how idiotic you are at managing a vent even though your education level doubles theres, that is of course, if you give them attitude and treat them like a$$. Respect them, say, "I am a resident that needs help" they will kindly help you.

Medical school is tough, yes we do go through hell. But no, its not a license to treat people like $hit! There are bad apples on both ends of the table. Yes, there are midlevels out there that think they're doctors, and yes, there are doctors out there that think they are God. But for the most part, you will find that midlevels are there to be helpful and docs value them as part of the team. That's right, team! In case you forgot, medicine is a team approach because nobody, no matter how educated or how much hell he went through, can do it himself.

Don't worry, midlevels are never going to take over your six figure job. But they will always be there to help out when needed, that is there role, and most of them know this.
Oh how we jump to conclusions so quickly, I was studying at Starbucks when I was in undergrad (you know that place before medical school). And just to let you know my undergrad wasn't in Erie. I do study at home and I don't try to show off for the people of Erie. Also, if you would have read my post I did not say that I deserve to treat people like crap b/c the are a midlevel, I was speaking out about midlevels acting like they are a doctor, and letting the pt believe that they are a doctor. Midlevels have their place and we have ours, but nurses keep pushing the bounds. People may think I'm an ass on this board, but if doctors don't protect their turf we will see the same thing that happened with the Anesthesiologist happening everywhere.
 
bustbones26 said:
I once worked in an ED that had a fast track clinic, people that walked in with urgent, yet not life threatening complaints: runny noses, scraped knees, etc., yes, this part of the ED was run by a midlevel, if things got too complicated, he came over to the other side to ask one of the docs for advice. Why? So docs could be seeing more interesting things in their ED: trauma, ACS, strokes, respiratory distress, etc. Is this such a bad set up?

I thought it was because most institutions want the cheapest care and not nec. the highest level of care. If it was for any other reason than money, why not just hire another doc?
 
allendo said:
Oh how we jump to conclusions so quickly, I was studying at Starbucks when I was in undergrad (you know that place before medical school). And just to let you know my undergrad wasn't in Erie. I do study at home and I don't try to show off for the people of Erie. Also, if you would have read my post I did not say that I deserve to treat people like crap b/c the are a midlevel, I was speaking out about midlevels acting like they are a doctor, and letting the pt believe that they are a doctor. Midlevels have their place and we have ours, but nurses keep pushing the bounds. People may think I'm an ass on this board, but if doctors don't protect their turf we will see the same thing that happened with the Anesthesiologist happening everywhere.
allendo said:
Oh how we jump to conclusions so quickly, I was studying at Starbucks when I was in undergrad (you know that place before medical school). And just to let you know my undergrad wasn't in Erie. I do study at home and I don't try to show off for the people of Erie. Also, if you would have read my post I did not say that I deserve to treat people like crap b/c the are a midlevel, I was speaking out about midlevels acting like they are a doctor, and letting the pt believe that they are a doctor. Midlevels have their place and we have ours, but nurses keep pushing the bounds. People may think I'm an ass on this board, but if doctors don't protect their turf we will see the same thing that happened with the Anesthesiologist happening everywhere.

Well allow me to be the first to apoligize to you for jumping to conclusions. So instead of a LECOM student showing off to the community you were a snobby coffee drinker who thought he was a big bad premed and thought he oh so cool because who knew more microbiology than a couple of nurses. And OOOH he got accepted to LECOM, you go get 'em! (Hey, I know its my alma mater but come on!). Yeah what a shame, I can't tell you the number of times a day I sure wish I knew how to do a gram stain!

Second off, I do try to keep my post somewhat generalized some please step down from you pedestal. I don't care where you studied or what you think or where you did undergrad.

I won't disagree with you, there are nurses out there that certainly overstep their bounds. But its not necessarily NP's. Floor RN's are going to drive you nuts when you take call! Here is a preview of what you will get:
"Dr. X, you need to order Y right now!"
"Hi, Dr. X, Patient Y's blood pressure is high and all we need to go is give her 5mg of lopressor so if you put the order in, I will go do that!"

But truth be told, if you finish medical school, you are the doctor and you have the medical license, and you have the education that they did not have. The disadvantage is, when you first slap the MD or DO on your white coat right out of medical school, you don't know what the hell you are doing right away and its so easy for the pushy nurses to make you look like and a$$. But no matter what, don't ever say, " I am the doctor and you are nurse now go be my bitch!" Even if you are right in doing so, this will make your life hell! Sometimes, arguing with the nurses in a manner where you don't belittle them and you don't get belittled in the process is the art of your entire internship year.

But overall, there are some good nurses out there too, let's not forget about them. If you think about it, you don't take care of your patient, the nurses do.

If some nurse wants to go be a CRNP, then good for them! If they want to go sign up for some program called DNP, hey, even better. But I would not stress over them going out into hospitals and clinics calling themselves doctor. Mostly for legal purposes, they are not a "doctor". If they think that they are a "doctor" then it will not take long for them to be put into their place.

A DNP is not going to replace any MD or DO here. Your job is not at risk. You will still comfortably make a nice hefty salary no matter what field you choose. I don't know any anesthesiologist who goes at home at night in tears because he has to work with CRNA's and only makes 300K per year.

Lastly, consider that a DNP might just be an academic goal only. I don't honestly know, I didn't take the time to look into what it takes to become a DNP but I would guess that if the rights and privileges are no different than that of CRNP, why bother? Unless you want to be in academics. Somebody has to educate all of the nurses coming through nursing school, I suppose if you wanted to be an instructor, it would look more impressive on your CV to have a DNP degree.
 
schutzhund said:
Exactly. They do not want supervision. They want to be independent practitioners. They want the same title, the same pay, and the same privileges as us without the same education.

Ah, don't worry. A few multimillion dollar lawsuits will cool them right off. They'll be fleeing like rats from a sinking ship when the lawyers and insurance companies start climbing on board.
 
Lets not all be naive about the situation. I don't know what the purpose of the DNP degree is. It may or may not be what we think it is. For all we know it may be completely benign to us. But make no mistake in that everyone not just nurses would be more than happy to have our practicing rights. I've already heard and read several opinions on it and a repeated statement is they support it if it means getting equal practice rights as a physician. Something said often was "Like getting us into the OR." Like I said don't be naive. If a bill was up for vote giving the average person with no medical training the authority to write scripts and perform whatever medical procedure he or she wanted to it would pass in a landslide.
 
This catfighting and finger pointing are completely pointless and counterproductive. We can all relate anecdotes of NP's or PA's being as professional or knowledgeable as their physician counterparts. It happens. But is it the rule or exception? I would argue that it is the exception. What we're talking about is at a POLICY level what is the best for our patients, country, and all the professions involved? If you're graduating 20-30,000 professionals a year, can you guarantee that those NP's or PA's are just as competent as fully trained physicians? Of course not. That's why medicine rigorously trains and evaluates its members to ensure that a minimum level of competency is reached. Sure, NP's, PA's, and DNP's get evaluated too, but do they take as many national examinations and go through as many evaluations as physicians to show competency? No.
 
Taurus said:
This catfighting and finger pointing are completely pointless and counterproductive. We can all relate anecdotes of NP's or PA's being as professional or knowledgeable as their physician counterparts. It happens. But is it the rule or exception? I would argue that it is the exception. What we're talking about is at a POLICY level what is the best for our patients, country, and all the professions involved? If you're graduating 20-30,000 professionals a year, can you guarantee that those NP's or PA's are just as competent as fully trained physicians? Of course not. That's why medicine rigorously trains and evaluates its members to ensure that a minimum level of competency is reached. Sure, NP's, PA's, and DNP's get evaluated too, but do they take as many national examinations and go through as many evaluations as physicians to show competency? No.

NP's take very little real science. Kind of scary that they would want full practice rights.
 
Can patients insist on being examined and treated by a doctor?
 
JohnnyOU said:
Can patients insist on being examined and treated by a doctor?

But they are being seen by a "doctor" 😉


But to the heart of the question, yes, the patient has the right to see the physician. Just might have to wait a while longer (hours, days, months, etc).

To be fair, if you go over to the nursing boards, there is a fair number of nurses (and NPs) who think requiring a DNP is a stupid idea. There is also a fair number of nurses who think that getting the DNP will make them seen as equals by their fellow board-certified physician-"colleagues". And the occasional nurse who ask "what do I have to do to get into medical school", there will always be someone who will go "why go to medical school? You can just get your DNP" with the implication that the two are equivalent.

Nursing is split over whether this DNP is a good thing or not. The nursing leadership seems to think this is the next best thing to bacon. There are limits to how fast this DNP can be implimented ... the number of doctorally trained nurses who can serve as faculty for these doctorata nursing programs ... convincing these newly minted clinically-trained "doctorate" nurses to stay in academia for lower pay (and stress of publish or perish) instead of the lucrative field of private practice. Also they have to convince the hospital committee (right now occupied by physicians) to grant full hospital priviledges to DNPs.
 
group_theory said:
There is also a fair number of nurses who think that getting the DNP will make them seen as equals by their fellow board-certified physician-"colleagues".

Good luck with that. Physicians don't even see their fellow physicians as equals.
 
Let me initially say that I think nurses are very helpful to physicians, but this DNP stuff is complete bullsh*t. Yeah go get ure DNP, but you shouldn't be allowed to open your own practice and establish patients that come to you on a regular basis when those patients should be seeing a medical doctor who is very well qualified to do his job. 4 years of med school + residency does not equal a bachelor's degree and a couple years of DNP school which I'm sure are no where near the intensity of med school. I completely agree with what has been said above in the regard, that should these DNP's or DPA's substitute for an MD/DO, our medical education system would absolutely become a tiered system. Only the top ten's would send graduates to specialize. The AMA/AOA needs to really step in here and limit the growing potential of this tumor before it becomes malignant.
 
Sinnman said:
So, no, I’m not worried about losing my job. I am worried that my family and friends may suffer. Also, I think it’s pretty stupid to think that primary care and maybe other specialties won’t lose reimbursement. And before anyone starts in on the “greedy doctor BS” come talk to me after you have a quarter of million in student loans and 7+ years of lost income, retirement, compounded interest and decreased work years

Great post!

One of the docs that I worked for in college had a disgruntaled front office woman who was upset at her level of compensation compared to that of the doctors. This was a woman who had 24 months at a community college and <1yr experience.
 
azcomRob said:
Great post!

One of the docs that I worked for in college had a disgruntaled front office woman who was upset at her level of compensation compared to that of the doctors. This was a woman who had 24 months at a community college and <1yr experience.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I know a woman who never went to any sort of college, is a secretary, gets full benefits, and is mad that she stopped getting raises last year (because she had previously gotten about a $1/hr raise and had reached a pretty high salary.)
 
The US Military did not commission DOs into the military until the 70's and by then there was a great need for physicians and mid-level primary care physicians. Interestingly enough during the Vietnam War, when DOs were not allowed to practice as physicians in the military, Dr. Hudson recommended to the AMA to recognize PAs (non-medically trained personell in the military) to function as mid-level primary care physicians. Thus allopathic military physicians developed the idea and trained enlisted personell to become PAs.
http://www.pahx.org/pdf/Military Ranks.pdf

My argument is that, if the U.S. Military had accepted DOs as physicians before the Vietnam War, there would be no PAs hitherto.
 
medicine1 said:
My argument is that, if the U.S. Military had accepted DOs as physicians before the Vietnam War, there would be no PAs hitherto.

Being a military physician, allow me to just say that if the Army did not have PA's, we'd be sending home a lot of people in boxes!
 
DireWolf said:
Wow. There are a lot of ignorant bastards around here.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/06/26/nurse.practitioner.ap/index.html


This article speaks volumes, but before you even read it, just look at the title:
The nurse is in: Nurse practitioners filling void in primary care

Let us step back for a moment and not question the credibility of education of say a nurse practicioner or midlevel provider. Rather, let us ask one big question, why do they exist? Why are nurse practicioners out there running primary care clinics?

Survery says, hold on folks, this might be a shocker-------------

Lisecened MD and DO's are not!

SLAM!!!

There is a huge need and demand for primary care but the number of MD/DO providers choosing this specialty is sadly falling. Worse yet, for those that do have an interest in primary care, they have no interest in practicing in butt f&&%, USA!

Why? Money, what else?
While the pay for primary care physicians is certainly more than what the average american income, and is more than enough to help pay back loaned money, it is about half of some other hot specialties out there such as radiology, dermatology, orthopedics, CT surgery, etc.

Although you certainly will not starve as primary care physician, your lifestyle managing patient's care can be frustrating at time, so why choose this specialty when you can make similar money in a different specialty where the the frustration of managing health care does not exist: dermatology, PM&R, pathology, emergency medicine, etc.

All of these new medical schools open up around the country hoping to fill this void, especially the DO schools, but still less than half of the graduate pursue training in primary care.

Now, let us discuss qualifications here:
In most of our states, to get a full unrestricted medical license, you only need to have one whopping year of post-graduate training under your belt. That's right, after internship, you can get a license and practice medicine. Who would do such a thing-------

Not too long in the past, many people did this, after internship, they'd get a license, open up shop, and call themselves general practicioners. When was recognized as an issue and family medicine then actually became a specialty requiring two years further of residency, these guys were grandfathered in. Do your homework, you just might find a few of these guys practicing in your community. This used to be the mainstay of DO's, one of the biggest reasons a lot of allopathic hospitals denied them priveleges, and why it took such a long time to get over DO discrimination. Fortunately, this is no longer the case.


Sothat was the old timers, you certainly wouldn't find these internship only trained doctors around anymore, would you? Sadly, many of them are working in urgent care and ambulatory clinics for peanuts. In addition, the military calls them General Medical Officers (GMO) and uses utilizes them frequently. GMO is frowned upon in the Army and Air Force who encourages all of their docs to complete a residency, but in the Navy, you are almost forced to do a tour as a GMO on a ship or a marine base somewhere.

Have to be honest here, I'd rather have my primary care by a nurse practioner or PA who has been out there practicing for a while than some person who is a doc fresh out of internship that for whatever reason did not complete residency training toward a board specialty.

Let us return to the original question at hand, "am I going to be replaced by a nurse?"

Not if you don't want to be! Nurses can call themselves whatever they want, they can even call themselves a doctor for all I care, but as long as you want to be out there practicing, they can't take your job. They can however take the jobs you do not want, and it looks like that is exactly what they are doing.
 
As an old ex Army physician (D.O.), I know that the post (by Medicine1) is completely erroneous. In it he states that "The US Military did not commission DOs into the military until the 70s", and "Interestingly enough during the Vietnam War, when DOs were not allowed to practice as physicians in the military." In point of fact the first D.O Medical Officers were inducted into the U.S. Army Medical Corp's in 1966. Many were in active service by the following year (1967). The ex Surgeon General of the Army, General Ronald Blanck, was commisioned in 1968, by which time several hundred D.O.s were serving as Medical Officers on active duty and in the Army Active Reserves, many in Vietnam as Battalion Surgeons. By 1970 D.O. Medical Officers on active duty in all 3 Branchs of the MIlitary Service were a long established fact. Research first, than write, is a good adage to adopt when writing anything on a public forum.)
 
I agree with bustbones. The point is that the NPs are taking jobs that MDs and DOs do not want to do... there most certainly is a primary care shortage in this country and frankly I see no problem with NPs taking over that role. I think NPs can become qualified to tackle the infections and common colds seen in primary care. I think this fear of NPs stealing away DO and MD jobs is ridiculous, sounds to me like there are just a lot of big egos out there b/c heaven forbid some lowly nurse does what you do. It all comes from the fact that people do not realize that there are enough patients out there to satisfy everyone's practice and to fill all hospitals to capacity, not to mention your wallets. Don't worry, you will still be a rich doctor, even with nurses just trying to educate themselves more and do more for patients...

Bustbones mentions DO discrimination. Do we deny nurses the respect they deserve in the same way MDs sometimes deny us the respect we deserve? All I'm saying is that there is room for all people to practice primary care. NPs will be qualified for primary care, and they will send their patients to a physician if they cannot help them.
 
CityDweller said:
I agree with bustbones. The point is that the NPs are taking jobs that MDs and DOs do not want to do... there most certainly is a primary care shortage in this country and frankly I see no problem with NPs taking over that role. I think NPs can become qualified to tackle the infections and common colds seen in primary care. I think this fear of NPs stealing away DO and MD jobs is ridiculous, sounds to me like there are just a lot of big egos out there b/c heaven forbid some lowly nurse does what you do. It all comes from the fact that people do not realize that there are enough patients out there to satisfy everyone's practice and to fill all hospitals to capacity, not to mention your wallets. Don't worry, you will still be a rich doctor, even with nurses just trying to educate themselves more and do more for patients...

Bustbones mentions DO discrimination. Do we deny nurses the respect they deserve in the same way MDs sometimes deny us the respect we deserve? All I'm saying is that there is room for all people to practice primary care. NPs will be qualified for primary care, and they will send their patients to a physician if they cannot help them.

Not totally true. I have firsthand knowledge of NP's that worked for a doctor (specialist), and then went on to start their own "practice" to "treat" many of the same patients. In other words, they are stealing some of their former employee's patients! BTW, they did not work for a primary care doc.

No one is denying NP's the respect that they deserve. Many NP's have been brainwashed into believing they are EQUALLY qualified to treat patients as an MD/DO. I know a couple of NP's that were humble when they first graduated their program, and now have a God complex. Sad, but true!
 
Hardbody said:
Not totally true. I have firsthand knowledge of NP's that worked for a doctor (specialist), and then went on to start their own "practice" to "treat" many of the same patients. In other words, they are stealing some of their former employee's patients! BTW, they did not work for a primary care doc.

No one is denying NP's the respect that they deserve. Many NP's have been brainwashed into believing they are EQUALLY qualified to treat patients as an MD/DO. I know a couple of NP's that were humble when they first graduated their program, and now have a God complex. Sad, but true!

That is because many NPs work in primary care, where many cases that they manage are very routine cases. After years of NPs doing this, they of course start to think that this is all that physicians do in their practices.

You must also understand that primary care physicians do endless more complex tasks than treating routine patients. Anyone who thinks that all primary care physicians do is treat the flu, coughs, otitis, etc. is severely misinformed and naive. In many cases, they allocate their patients with routine problems to their NPs/PAs so that they can treat the more complex patients. PCPs also act as mediators and mistake-catchers between multiple specialists who are treating their patients. That is not an easy job.

I have much respect for NPs/PAs and they play a valuable and vital role in healthcare. However, they should never, ever be thought to have the experience and knowledge of a physician.
 
Dr Trek 1 said:
That is because many NPs work in primary care, where many cases that they manage are very routine cases. After years of NPs doing this, they of course start to think that this is all that physicians do in their practices.
You must also understand that primary care physicians do endless more complex tasks than treating routine patients. Anyone who thinks that all primary care physicians do is treat the flu, coughs, otitis, etc. is severely misinformed and naive. In many cases, they allocate their patients with routine problems to their NPs/PAs so that they can treat the more complex patients. PCPs also act as mediators and mistake-catchers between multiple specialists who are treating their patients. That is not an easy job.

I have much respect for NPs/PAs and they play a valuable and vital role in healthcare. However, they should never, ever be thought to have the experience and knowledge of a physician.

Exactly! There is an element of NP's that needs a reality check. Someone needs to tell them they are not physicians, and if they would like to be a physicians, then they need to go to medical school.

I have respect for NP/PA's too but in the famous words of The Rock, they need to "Know your (their) role and shut your mouth(s)!"
 
Two career education paths resulting in the same service being provided to society, with the same remuneration, but being vastly different in length and difficulty of training cannont co-exist for an extended period. Similarly, two providers offering essentially the same service but having substantially different remuneration cannont co-exist for an extended period, regardless of the length of training of the two paths to providing that service.

In the first case, people entering the job market will self select to the shorter and/or easier path toward the same end result. In the context of the medical profession and DNP's, the result would be a continued and drastic drop in the number of primary care specialty physicians, with a tiering of the medical schools a likely result as diminished class sizes compete for specialty residency programs.

In the second case, economic pressure will remove job opportunities for the higher compensated provider as people will always tend to pay less for the same (perceived) service. The end result is the same as the first case: self-selection of medical students to not enter a dying field.



In either case, I just can't see the justification of allowing nurses to operate autonomously. There is an established route to providing primary health care in this country. Allowing a parallel route for the moment will result in one or the other becoming dominant in the future. It is enevitable. My problem is that nursing programs do not provide the depth of training required to fully provide primary health care. Malpractice suits may be an equalizing factor, but if so I think one that would be slow to operate and restore a balance.

So what are the options? Well, push back and refuse extended nursing practice rights, for one, obviously. There is a well recognized Aside from that, I can see a few possibilities. With appropriate controls in place, primary care could be completely given over to nursing, in which case there are no primary care physicians and cases which are beyond the scope of nursing training are referred to MD/DO specialists. That would truly suck. That would be the complete opposite of what dentists managed to accomplish.

Another option would be simple legislation changes that give more comprehensive federal guidelines on what training is required to practice health care of a given scope. This might affect the long standing "unlimited license" physicians enjoy, but in practice I don't think things would change much on the doctor side. On the nursing side, however, a law on the books requiring certain basic science and medical courses and a minimum level of clinical hours (well, well past a couple of hundred) before being lawfully qualified to practice medicine as an autonomous provider would do wonders. If you remove the "fast track" that DNP provides to practicing medicine, you remove the motivation for pursuing that path. Why get a DNP if it takes as long as is as difficult as an MD degree? What this type of legislation would create (and honestly, I don't understand why something like this isn't already on the books that could be used to control the situation) is another MD vs. DO type of argument... now that both have substantially equal training paths, the rights are also substantially equal. If nurses wanted to enter into direct competition on those terms, then so be it. That becomes a business decision. The worst downside to that solution is a loosening of the reigns on doctor supply enjoyed by medical schools. The threat of more and more DO schools is already causing them to loosen their grip however, and I can't say I am concerned... there is afterall a fairly generally agreed physician shortage.
 
schutzhund said:
I was just reading the MD vs. DNP thread on the allopathic forum and did a little surfing about the DNPs on the internet.

I'm really concerned. Think about this:

1) The nurses have made incredible strives to push for a completely autonomous profession. The majority of states allow for clinics run essentially only by NPs. Now they're adding a clinical doctorate. They plan on competing with (or taking over) the primary care specialties.

And I suspect that many people will continue to go to see NP for routine
matters. Last year I went for an MD for a complete physical. She took a
blood sample, no urine, checked BP and pulse. Listened to my heart, (thru
my shirt), I made her look at my scalp and she finally agreed to remove
a pre-squamous. She never did have me take off my shirt. She pronounced
me to be healty and sent me on my way. This year, I went to another doctor, who was a little more complete but just barely. At least he did an
EKG. None did a DRE or a hernia check and I am 58 years old.

I would rather go to a NP and take a chance on them "getting lucky" and finding any problem I have than go to an MD who spends more time filling out the insurance forms than looking at me.

Question- Why are doctors treating phyicals exams in such a casual way. When I was a kid and nothing likely wrong with me, they checked head to toe. Now I am old and likely to have problems, they don't seem to think I
am likely to have a problem? Any idea on how to find an MD who will really do a real physical? I worry about relying too much on blood/urine tests to find potential problems. Is the problem not having enough time to do it right or is it an insurance-reimbursement issue? I know both of these doctors want to be good doctors and I like and respect both of them for their abilities.
 
Sorry, first posting. When I read it, it looked a little confusing in that the
heading from the posting that I was commenting on was not adequately seperated from my own.
Regards All


Rebelheart said:
schutzhund said:
I was just reading the MD vs. DNP thread on the allopathic forum and did a little surfing about the DNPs on the internet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm really concerned. Think about this:

1) The nurses have made incredible strives to push for a completely autonomous profession. The majority of states allow for clinics run essentially only by NPs. Now they're adding a clinical doctorate. They plan on competing with (or taking over) the primary care specialties.
*********************************************************



And I suspect that many people will continue to go to see NP for routine
matters. Last year I went for an MD for a complete physical. She took a
blood sample, no urine, checked BP and pulse. Listened to my heart, (thru
my shirt), I made her look at my scalp and she finally agreed to remove
a pre-squamous. She never did have me take off my shirt. She pronounced
me to be healty and sent me on my way. This year, I went to another doctor, who was a little more complete but just barely. At least he did an
EKG. None did a DRE or a hernia check and I am 58 years old.

I would rather go to a NP and take a chance on them "getting lucky" and finding any problem I have than go to an MD who spends more time filling out the insurance forms than looking at me.

Question- Why are doctors treating phyicals exams in such a casual way. When I was a kid and nothing likely wrong with me, they checked head to toe. Now I am old and likely to have problems, they don't seem to think I
am likely to have a problem? Any idea on how to find an MD who will really do a real physical? I worry about relying too much on blood/urine tests to find potential problems. Is the problem not having enough time to do it right or is it an insurance-reimbursement issue? I know both of these doctors want to be good doctors and I like and respect both of them for their abilities.
 
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