Did you Complete a Formal Postdoc?

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bigdreamer3 said:
Did you complete a formal postdoc? In what area? Do you believe it was worth the training/lower pay, or do you wish you'd gone directly into practice?
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no
 
I did in substance use and addictive disorders. Personally, I’m getting experiences/training that would be almost impossible to get outside of this postdoc, so in that sense it’s worth it for me. And in hindsight, it’s been nice to have a year that gave me a taste of independence while still having a safety net. I would only have slipped a formal postdoc for my dream job (ideal job + ideal location).


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I did a formal 2-year post-doc in neuropsych that was highly specialized in concussion assessment/management. No other choice but to do a post-doc given the requirement for neuropsych. No regrets.
 
SportsNeuroPsych said:
I did a formal 2-year post-doc in neuropsych that was highly specialized in concussion assessment/management. No other choice but to do a post-doc given the requirement for neuropsych. No regrets.
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I'll be doing a forensic postdoc next year. Worth it for that ABPP waiver, even with the lower salary for one more year!
 
I completed most of a 2 year research fellowship (75% research, 25% clinical) at a VA and affiliated academic medical center. I'm actually really glad that I did a formal post doc. First, it made me finally feel confident enough that I could function as a fully independent, licensed psychologist. Second, I was able to obtain specialized training in an area that I love that I still use today. Third, I absolutely loved my post doc and made some lifelong connections (and friends!) on it. It helped that I completed it in an awesome but expensive city, of course. I left it slightly early because I found my dream job--although that didn't end up working out so if anything I regret leaving my post doc early.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
For me: yes, two-year in neuropsych at a VAMC. Very much enjoyed it, and for me, it was worth the time. I probably learned as much on fellowship as I did in my training up to that point.

As with folks above, "no ragrets."
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Helped that the postdoc was relatively high paying compared to other postdocs. But agreed, wouldn't have traded it for anything.
 
bigdreamer3 said:
Did you complete a formal postdoc? In what area? Do you believe it was worth the training/lower pay, or do you wish you'd gone directly into practice?
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Yes. Research position in psych dept at a university with postdoc hours through the clinic in the lab. Well worth it. I would be a much worse researcher and therapist. Not sure if this is relevant to you since primary practice was never my goal.
 
I did a sort of virtual post-doc in Cancer, Culture, and Literacy funded by an NCI R25 mechanism. The post-doc was administered through Moffitt Cancer Center in Tampa and USF. I was based on the west coast and had a local mentor. When I was applying for research grants, I wrote that up as a post-doc and reviewers seemed to buy it. I already had a fair amount of research experience when I started it and was in a phase of my career when I was publishing a lot. That made it easier to sell my somewhat unconventional post-doc to reviewers.
 
2 yrs neuro and rehab at a "Top 100" hospital (I highly suspect those titles are about as meaningful as those "who's who in XXXX"). Informal, part time, forensic post doc semi-overlapping. MSCP with practica afterwards.

Of all that, the neuro has had the greatest financial impact. I would not have done a formal post doc if I was a generalist.
 
Completed one year of a two year research postdoc that involved some minimal clinical research hours (leading groups for intervention studies, for example) but was 90% research and related didactics. Left early for a surprise VAP offer to get more teaching experience. The didactics were great; the university practice of classifying postdocs as “independent contractors” sucked.
 
Formal, no, informal, yes as a generalist. Both are very underpaid, but my state requires postdoc hours. I gained valuable experience working with adolescents, valuable group experience, and family therapy experience in a residential outpatient program. Was a tough year but I gained useful skills/competence.
 
Therapist4Chnge said:
Yes. Rehab & Neuropsych. 2yr at AMC. It's basically required to be faculty at any AMC and get hired at most but not all jobs.
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Not to thread hijack, but I'm genuinely curious: I've been hearing from some rehab psychologists that a formal post-doc isn't necessary to actually be boarded in rehab psych. What are people's thoughts around this?
 
R. Matey said:
Not to thread hijack, but I'm genuinely curious: I've been hearing from some rehab psychologists that a formal post-doc isn't necessary to actually be boarded in rehab psych. What are people's thoughts around this?
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Similar to neuropsych, a "formal" postdoc is not necessarily required, but if you did not do one, you have to have a ton of extra documentation as to how your informal situation had adequate supervisory and didactic experiences to meet the minimum requirements.
 
WisNeuro said:
Similar to neuropsych, a "formal" postdoc is not necessarily required, but if you did not do one, you have to have a ton of extra documentation as to how your informal situation had adequate supervisory and didactic experiences to meet the minimum requirements.
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I will add to this that state licensing requirements and ABPP requirements do not always overlap. So , they may want two-years of supervised post-doctoral experience when your state requires one or none.
 
Just to clarify, I would guess most people responding here gained extra clinical hours in some way after degree conferral. Mine was through the college counseling center where I took a Visiting Assistant Prof job. So, although I certainly had supervision/supervised hours after my Ph.D,... it wasn't a "formal" training program.

Again, I think it is pretty rare to just jump into unsupervised practice right after degree conferral. I think most everyone understands the importance of having a year or so of supervised work (even if that clinical work is part-time) so that they can meet licensing requirements in many other states.
 
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R. Matey said:
Not to thread hijack, but I'm genuinely curious: I've been hearing from some rehab psychologists that a formal post-doc isn't necessary to actually be boarded in rehab psych. What are people's thoughts around this?
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D22 (Rehabilitation Psychology) put together the Baltimore Guidelines ~10yrs ago, akin to the Houston Guidelines. There is/was some disagreement about 1yr v 2yr requirement. I personally believe it needs to be 2yrs, but I think they kept the knowledge areas and said it could be 1 or 2 years.

The first publication from the group came in 2011 IIRC, and a handful/bunch have been published since by some of the same authors that talk more about training standards and the important aspects of training.
 
PsyDr said:
2 yrs neuro and rehab at a "Top 100" hospital (I highly suspect those titles are about as meaningful as those "who's who in XXXX"). Informal, part time, forensic post doc semi-overlapping. MSCP with practica afterwards.

Of all that, the neuro has had the greatest financial impact. I would not have done a formal post doc if I was a generalist.
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I swear, it seems like I've seen >100 hospitals claiming to be a "Top 100" site.

Also, so wait, you're saying those ads for the country's best dermatologist or cardiologist in all those airline magazines aren't to be trusted? Crud.
 
bigdreamer3 said:
Did you complete a formal postdoc? In what area? Do you believe it was worth the training/lower pay, or do you wish you'd gone directly into practice?
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Keep in mind that certain states require a formal postdoc to be licensed. Oregon is one that comes to mind.
 
Seven_Costanza said:
Keep in mind that certain states require a formal postdoc to be licensed. Oregon is one that comes to mind.
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I believe CA also requires a formal postdoc for licensure. Anyone confirm?

As to OP: I'll be starting a formal VA postdoc later this year, and I appreciate seeing others' experiences. My impression is that clinical postdocs are not recommended unless they'll position you particularly well for a competitive staff position at the institution/organization (VA, group practice, etc.). Clinical postdocs seem to be more or less a formal apprenticeship for a specific position/set of duties. Research postdocs seem to have more variation in intended outcome, although the component parts are similar; accelerate the trainee's competitiveness for faculty positions (research grant writing, dissemination), support the trainee as they work on a training grant submission (i.e., CDA/K), gain specialized training in research method(s)/population. Has anyone had the experience of doing a clinical postdoc first and then doing a research postdoc afterward? Or doing a clinical postdoc and then deciding to pursue a full research position?

I'd also be particularly interested in hearing from anyone who chose not to do a research postdoc and jumped right into faculty/staff positions and thinks they may have missed out on a useful opportunity? It seems like for most folks in research a postdoc is only useful if a faculty/staff position isn't available. Can anyone speak to that?
 
Thanks everyone, for the responses! Some of the posters may be familiar enough with my previous threads, but long story short is that I accepted an informal private practice postdoc after graduation this past Fall. The position was advertised with a big focus on training/mentoring. However, when I struggled to meet productivity deadlines about five months into the job, my supervisor became rather abusive, toxic, and threatening (despite stating that the quality of my work was the best they'd seen by a resident).

Ultimately, the situation progressed to the point that I resigned and am now recalibrating. Too bad I didn't know that right after I quit, the world would shut down. It also happened after the big postdoc hiring pushes. This experience has put a dent in the confidence I had worked really hard to build already. So now, I've been considering trying to find a formal position as a means to gain that independence and confidence back, as well as get the training/mentorship I didn't at this most recent place.
 
AcronymAllergy said:
I swear, it seems like I've seen >100 hospitals claiming to be a "Top 100" site.

Also, so wait, you're saying those ads for the country's best dermatologist or cardiologist in all those airline magazines aren't to be trusted? Crud.
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Well, there are actually a lot more than 100 hospitals in the top 100. There are several hospital rating systems out there, so I'm sure some hospitals are touting some questionable creds. "We were rated in the Top 100! (in small print: by Autoworld)
 
WisNeuro said:
Well, there are actually a lot more than 100 hospitals in the top 100. There are several hospital rating systems out there, so I'm sure some hospitals are touting some questionable creds. "We were rated in the Top 100! (in small print: by Autoworld)
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I was rated #1 psychologist in the country (by my wife and my mom).
 
Seven_Costanza said:
Keep in mind that certain states require a formal postdoc to be licensed. Oregon is one that comes to mind.
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No so fast. I was just licensed there, per our current business needs. I don't even see patients in my full-time current job, mind you. Again, my post doc was NOT a formal training program. I met their requirements because I had 1.5 years of documented supervised clinical work that totaled up to the 500 (or 600?) direct contact hours requirement for the post-doc experience.

Frankly, I think some people fudge. Did I really have 500 or 600 actual face-to-face hours over 1.5 years?. I don't know. Nine-Ten years out...and its kinda like who gives a ****... ya know?
 
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bigdreamer3 said:
Did you complete a formal postdoc? In what area? Do you believe it was worth the training/lower pay, or do you wish you'd gone directly into practice?
Click to expand...

I did a research postdoc on a federal training grant, so I guess that's semi-formal? It bought me time to think through my next steps. Not having to see many patients for a while was nice.

bigdreamer3 said:
Thanks everyone, for the responses! Some of the posters may be familiar enough with my previous threads, but long story short is that I accepted an informal private practice postdoc after graduation this past Fall. The position was advertised with a big focus on training/mentoring. However, when I struggled to meet productivity deadlines about five months into the job, my supervisor became rather abusive, toxic, and threatening (despite stating that the quality of my work was the best they'd seen by a resident).
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I'm sorry that happened to you. There are far too many of these stories in our field.

I encourage you to look for independent practice positions if you are license-eligible or if a site will allow you a grace period to obtain your license. It's tough getting your feet wet when you begin practicing independently, but if you network and develop your peer support system, and use other resources available to you when you need help (your licensing board, your insurance company, professional organizations), you'll most likely be able to find the help you need.
 
MamaPhD said:
I did a research postdoc on a federal training grant, so I guess that's semi-formal? It bought me time to think through my next steps. Not having to see many patients for a while was nice.

I'm sorry that happened to you. There are far too many of these stories in our field.

I encourage you to look for independent practice positions if you are license-eligible or if a site will allow you a grace period to obtain your license. It's tough getting your feet wet when you begin practicing independently, but if you network and develop your peer support system, and use other resources available to you when you need help (your licensing board, your insurance company, professional organizations), you'll most likely be able to find the help you need.
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Thanks for the advice! I've been scouring job postings and trying to reach out to everyone I can think of. Fingers crossed something pops up.
 
I will say, at least for some specialty areas, it can be a "now or never" type of situation when choosing formal vs. informal. Every year I've reviewed postdoc applications, there are always a handful of people who now want a formal postdoc in neuro after starting or finishing an informal one. There is definitely a bias against these applications, as I have never seen one seriously considered for acceptance. This would have been at several VA sites, YMMV at other places.
 
calimich said:
yes. At a CCC (stayed on after internship), split role 60/40 clinical/research. It was great additional training and I'm sure helped me get a tt job.
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You had 40% protected research time at a community counseling center? What sort of research were you doing? How was it funded? Was it 1 year or 2? Did you apply for tt jobs while on internship?
 
WisNeuro said:
I will say, at least for some specialty areas, it can be a "now or never" type of situation when choosing formal vs. informal. Every year I've reviewed postdoc applications, there are always a handful of people who now want a formal postdoc in neuro after starting or finishing an informal one. There is definitely a bias against these applications, as I have never seen one seriously considered for acceptance. This would have been at several VA sites, YMMV at other places.
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I've known people who've done formal generalist postdocs go on for formal speciality postdocs in neuropsychology. This was at a smaller rural hospital. Not sure if this would be true for more desirable places.
 
beginner2011 said:
You had 40% protected research time at a community counseling center? What sort of research were you doing? How was it funded? Was it 1 year or 2? Did you apply for tt jobs while on internship?
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college counseling center...the structure was similar for all postdocs in that there was an "apprenticeship" component...some chose leadership, outreach, supervision, training, etc...no one had yet asked for a research focused apprenticeship, but it has remained as an option.
not sure how it was funded. I worked on analyzing years and years of center utilization rates, diagnoses, outcomes, etc, and comparing different student sub-populations...they had soooo much data that had never been examined...resulted in several posters and 1 pub
it was for 1 year...yes I applied for tt jobs during internship, got nothing...applied again in postdoc, lots of interviews...several campus visits, 2 offers

edit: it's been several years and I redid the math...it was more like 75/25 to meet CA's postdoc hours licensure requirement...and I definitely think just having the phd after my name (vs applying during internship year) provided a boost to my competitiveness. I had lots of posters and a handful of pubs coming out of internship so I'm not sure how much the couple extra posters and 1 pub actually helped lad a tt job, but I wrote/spoke about it (the research apprenticeship) in applications & interviews as evidence of my continued interest in & ability to conduct research while engaging in other tasks (much like I do now as faculty)
 
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I completed a general clinical psych postdoc through the VA and the decision was largely driven by geographical considerations. It helped me to refine my clinical skills, allowed me time to study and pass the EPPP during the postdoc year, prep all my stuff for licensure and eased a transition to a VA staff psychologist position (with a different VA) afterwards.

The postdoc itself wasn't essential but I appreciated being able to get more experience and feel more confident about ultimately starting my career in the VA. I was definitely more able to discern what types of VA positions that I may like and ones that I should avoid like the plague.
 
erg923 said:
No so fast. I was just licensed there, per our current business needs. I don't even see patients in my full-time current job, mind you. Again, my post doc was NOT a formal training program. I met their requirements because I had 1.5 years of documented supervised clinical work that totaled up to the 500 (or 600?) direct contact hours requirement for the post-doc experience.

Frankly, I think some people fudge. Did I really have 500 or 600 actual face-to-face hours over 1.5 years?. I don't know. Nine-Ten years out...and its kinda like who gives a ****... ya know?
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Thanks! Their board lists “one year of supervised post-doctoral experience” as a requirement, but it sounds like they’re flexible about what that means. Good to know!

@beginner2011, as others mentioned, CA requires 1500 post-grad supervised hours for licensure. I know a number of folks who took “psych assistant” positions in private practice and hospitals rather than completing a formal postdoc to meet this requirement.
 
I would add that, in addition to the specialized training, the formal postdoc can help create structure and ease when moving through the licensure process and job applications. For example, many formal postdocs "pass down" EPPP information, provide professional development/academic leave days to take the EPPP and other tests (e.g. jurisprudence), provide didactics with helpful information and resources related to licensure and jobs, etc. The paperwork for licensure becomes quite straightforward and the expectation is you're spending the time in this postdoc getting ready for an independent job. This isn't always the case, but I had many friends at informal postdocs who struggled to receive resources, days off, and the support that are built into formal postdocs.

That being said, I was certainly tired of being a trainee and the option to skip that structure was alluring.
 
WisNeuro said:
I will say, at least for some specialty areas, it can be a "now or never" type of situation when choosing formal vs. informal. Every year I've reviewed postdoc applications, there are always a handful of people who now want a formal postdoc in neuro after starting or finishing an informal one. There is definitely a bias against these applications, as I have never seen one seriously considered for acceptance. This would have been at several VA sites, YMMV at other places.
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Were these applications "never seriously considered for acceptance" because they were lower-quality, or were similarly qualified applicants universally rejected due to a preexisting bias alone? I think the distinction is important.
 
depthpsych said:
Were these applications "never seriously considered for acceptance" because they were lower-quality, or were similarly qualified applicants universally rejected due to a preexisting bias alone? I think the distinction is important.
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Lower quality generally speaking. There seemed to be a reason these people could not find reputable neuro postdocs.
 
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