Did you expect practicing to be easier than vet school?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

iamapm

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
42
Reaction score
11
So, I'll start the thread.

Are new grads dismayed by how hard practice turns out to be?
Do the older vets remember what they thought?

Members don't see this ad.
 
I'm dismayed by some of the abuse this field allows towards its employees. To the vets but also to the support staff. Some of these techs and receptionists get screamed at, cursed at and outright bullied by people and then the client will be "nice" to the vet. And the clinic does nothing when the client treats the staff that way. It is quite disgraceful.


I knew practice would be hard. It is medicine, it doesn't always work out the way you expect. It is called "practicing" for a reason.

It is more the abuse by clients and also by other clinics, other vets, etc that I really am dismayed by.

You would never be able to walk into your doctor with an empty prescription vial and demand it be refilled "RIGHT NOW".

You would never be able to walk into your doctor with a week old wound and demand to not only be seen instantly but to also have surgery done that same day.

You would never be able to walk into your doctor 5 minutes before close and demand to be seen-- for anything. They are going to tell you to schedule an appointment or to go an urgent care/ER.

You would never be able to call your doctor the following day and demand lab results and actually get them.

You would never be able to call up your doctor and ask to "talk with them about something"... you would be told to make an appointment.

You would never be able to walk into your doctor with a surgical emergency and not only get seen but have the surgery performed and sent home that same day. It still baffles me that GP vets are able to fit in emergency surgeries like we do. That would never happen in human medicine, you are going to the emergency room and they are contacting a board-certified surgeon for your emergency surgery needs.

I could make this list go forever.

Just think about how much we expect the General Practice veterinarian to do and accomplish in a single day compared to that of the General Practice MD and you can really start to see how so many vets are burned out. We do so much more, take on so much more and so much more is demanded of us it is insane.
 
Last edited:
Members don't see this ad :)
I'm dismayed by some of the abuse this field allows towards its employees. To the vets but also to the support staff. Some of these techs and receptionists get screamed at, cursed at and outright bullied by people and then the client will be "nice" to the vet. And the clinic does nothing when the client treats the staff that way. It is quite disgraceful.


I agree with all your points. I think part of the solution is for the practice owners to decide what is acceptable and not allow clients to be demanding in the ways that a few are - sometimes we fire clients and suggest that they would be better served elsewhere.

I have also wondered from time to time if part of the demanding behavior is also tied to the fact that the clients are paying upfront for services, etc. Vet insurance has not yet distorted the monetary picture and doctor client relationships as it has in human medicine. In the vet world, clients are VERY sensitive to cost but in the human world, we only tend to care about if insurance covers it.
 
Just think about how much we expect the General Practice veterinarian to do and accomplish in a single day compared to that of the General Practice MD and you can really start to see how so many vets are burned out. We do so much more, take on so much more and so much more is demanded of us it is insane.

I actually think that the human world ought to be more responsive to the patients as we are in the vet world, but they think they really work for everyone else but the patient.
 
I actually think that the human world ought to be more responsive to the patients as we are in the vet world, but they think they really work for everyone else but the patient.

Maybe to a degree. But the veterinary world needs to stop rolling over and letting people trample all over us. We need to be setting boundaries like the human world. Maybe not as extreme but I think it would help the burn out and would improve the mental wellbeing of veterinary professionals if we would set boundaries.
 
I agree with all your points. I think part of the solution is for the practice owners to decide what is acceptable and not allow clients to be demanding in the ways that a few are - sometimes we fire clients and suggest that they would be better served elsewhere.

Want to know how many clients I have seen fired since I have started? Two. Two clients. How many have actually been abusive? I have lost count. See the problem?

Most recent example of a client that should have been fired:

Regular client on a wellness plan that comes in frequently for random things and then they decline everything. So they have run out of their allotted exams included in the wellness program. Actually, they have used all of their services. Male owner calls one morning and talks with the receptionist no less than 6 times, debating with her on if he should bring the dog in. Dog is PU/PD, vomiting, diarrhea, lethargic, won't get up, panting. He doesn't want to bring the dog in because he doesn't want to miss his golf game. (I am not kidding). He decides to bring the dog in. I recommend an appropriate diagnostics to work up what could very well be a dog in DKA. He throws a god damn hissy fit and tells us we are ridiculous and storms out. Bitches about missing his golf game. His wife brings the dog in a few days later and agrees to blood work... shock of all shocks, dog is diabetic. Somewhere in this time they decide they never want to see me again. Ok, fine, I really don't care, because that is one less demanding, irate client for me to deal with. No sweat off my back. BUT, this is the problem. I am the ONLY full-time vet at this clinic. It is me or no one 85% of the time. Seriously. But he doesn't want to see me. Sounds simple... he should be told to seek care elsewhere... does that happen? Oh no, that does not happen.

Instead the tech has now twice allowed them to come in and get services without really paying for them but asking me to give recommendations. Once for a glucose curve and again for an ear infection. Oh, and the office manager has allowed this to happen.

The latest thing with these people is that they are complaining that our wellness plans (that haven't had a price increase in over 4 years) are increasing in price. Well, tough ****, buttercup.

And do they get told to piss off and find care elsewhere? Nope. We still allow them to call up and be verbally abusive to staff.

I finally told them I will not do anything else for this patient. At all. Period. They are stealing from me (quite literally since I am on Pro-sal) to allow these people to come in and loophole around seeing me and paying for my expertise. If they want to only schedule when the part-time vet is here, fine, but I am not and will not do any more of these "tech appointment" bull **** things and then have to give my opinion on it.
 
Being able to fire clients is about the only thing in the "pros" column for me when I think about ever becoming an owner.

I honestly can't remember my expectations about clinical work before I started clinical work (i.e. when I was a student). I never thought it would be easy, I know that. Just difficult in a different way.
 
I never thought it would be easier, just more interesting (which it definitely is). I also thought graduating vet school would be the end of studying but I study more now than I ever did in vet school ha.
 
I was not a good student and didn't like studying and sitting in classes (or lecture capture) at all. I wasn't particularly good at it and my grades show as much.

I like working and doing things and talking to people and god I love puppies. So honestly, I kinda feel like practice is easier than vet school. At the very least, it's very different.
 
You would never be able to walk into your doctor with an empty prescription vial and demand it be refilled "RIGHT NOW".

You would never be able to walk into your doctor with a week old wound and demand to not only be seen instantly but to also have surgery done that same day.

You would never be able to walk into your doctor 5 minutes before close and demand to be seen-- for anything. They are going to tell you to schedule an appointment or to go an urgent care/ER.

You would never be able to call your doctor the following day and demand lab results and actually get them.

You would never be able to call up your doctor and ask to "talk with them about something"... you would be told to make an appointment.

You might not be familiar with the VA...
 
I never thought it would be easier, just more interesting (which it definitely is). I also thought graduating vet school would be the end of studying but I study more now than I ever did in vet school ha.
That's definitely the truth about studying. There's knowing something to the degree of being able to recognize or BS your way through something on an exam. But then there's knowing something to the degree of being able to teach a client about it. There's sooo much client education involved with our jobs that I feel like I have to study up on things so much more in order to feel comfortable teaching the client about it.

I was not a good student and didn't like studying and sitting in classes (or lecture capture) at all. I wasn't particularly good at it and my grades show as much.

I like working and doing things and talking to people and god I love puppies. So honestly, I kinda feel like practice is easier than vet school. At the very least, it's very different.

I'm in this camp, too. I absolutely hated the didactic portion of school and wasn't good at it either. I hated clinics even more and they almost broke me. What I love about GP is that I can be upfront with an owner about not knowing the answer to something and I don't leave the room feeling like a poor excuse of a doctor. Sure, I still have moments when I refresh my memory and go "hey dummy, you knew that...the info was just sitting under some brain dust" but at the end of the day I just never feel quite as judged as I did in school. Plus there were hoards of people that said things like "GP is NOTHING like clinics" and I literally clung to that suggestion so hard and they were right. Also, looking back at clinics...I would beat myself up terribly for barely making my way through Small Animal Internal Med but now that I'm on the other side of things, I realize that I was expected to (as a 4th year student and not even a "real" doctor yet) try to figure out things that real-life practicing GP vets couldn't figure out. Now that I get to be that GP that can't figure out something so I need to refer it, I feel so free. It's amazing.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
That's definitely the truth about studying. There's knowing something to the degree of being able to recognize or BS your way through something on an exam. But then there's knowing something to the degree of being able to teach a client about it. There's sooo much client education involved with our jobs that I feel like I have to study up on things so much more in order to feel comfortable teaching the client about it.



I'm in this camp, too. I absolutely hated the didactic portion of school and wasn't good at it either. I hated clinics even more and they almost broke me. What I love about GP is that I can be upfront with an owner about not knowing the answer to something and I don't leave the room feeling like a poor excuse of a doctor. Sure, I still have moments when I refresh my memory and go "hey dummy, you knew that...the info was just sitting under some brain dust" but at the end of the day I just never feel quite as judged as I did in school. Plus there were hoards of people that said things like "GP is NOTHING like clinics" and I literally clung to that suggestion so hard and they were right. Also, looking back at clinics...I would beat myself up terribly for barely making my way through Small Animal Internal Med but now that I'm on the other side of things, I realize that I was expected to (as a 4th year student and not even a "real" doctor yet) try to figure out things that real-life practicing GP vets couldn't figure out. Now that I get to be that GP that can't figure out something so I need to refer it, I feel so free. It's amazing.
Just chiming in to say that this is something that's bothered me for a while. We get 16 weeks as underclassmen to (more or less) shadow our fourth years and I've seen those clinicians who expect a fourth year to have the same working knowledge as a boarded specialist. I don't get it.
 
I actually really enjoyed vet school - the constant learning, the opportunity to interact with other smart/nerdy kids, etc. I haven't enjoyed practice anywhere near as much. I'm in GP, so it's pretty routine and not all that intellectually stimulating, most of my day is spent interacting with owners who are idiots, etc. I miss vet school!!
 
I actually really enjoyed vet school - the constant learning, the opportunity to interact with other smart/nerdy kids, etc. I haven't enjoyed practice anywhere near as much. I'm in GP, so it's pretty routine and not all that intellectually stimulating, most of my day is spent interacting with owners who are idiots, etc. I miss vet school!!

I told my techs after my last client left today that I would have better luck explaining things to a brick wall than to the client.
 
I'm dismayed by some of the abuse this field allows towards its employees. To the vets but also to the support staff. Some of these techs and receptionists get screamed at, cursed at and outright bullied by people and then the client will be "nice" to the vet. And the clinic does nothing when the client treats the staff that way. It is quite disgraceful.


I knew practice would be hard. It is medicine, it doesn't always work out the way you expect. It is called "practicing" for a reason.

It is more the abuse by clients and also by other clinics, other vets, etc that I really am dismayed by.

You would never be able to walk into your doctor with an empty prescription vial and demand it be refilled "RIGHT NOW".

You would never be able to walk into your doctor with a week old wound and demand to not only be seen instantly but to also have surgery done that same day.

You would never be able to walk into your doctor 5 minutes before close and demand to be seen-- for anything. They are going to tell you to schedule an appointment or to go an urgent care/ER.

You would never be able to call your doctor the following day and demand lab results and actually get them.

You would never be able to call up your doctor and ask to "talk with them about something"... you would be told to make an appointment.

You would never be able to walk into your doctor with a surgical emergency and not only get seen but have the surgery performed and sent home that same day. It still baffles me that GP vets are able to fit in emergency surgeries like we do. That would never happen in human medicine, you are going to the emergency room and they are contacting a board-certified surgeon for your emergency surgery needs.

I could make this list go forever.

Just think about how much we expect the General Practice veterinarian to do and accomplish in a single day compared to that of the General Practice MD and you can really start to see how so many vets are burned out. We do so much more, take on so much more and so much more is demanded of us it is insane.
I Just left 2 years of medical school... and spent thousands of hours in the trauma center, hospitals, clinics etc. Patients are cranky, they yell, cuss and demand. They demand refills, or an Rx they saw on TV and they want it now. Ive dealt with liars, screamers, demanders, cryers, and all the emotional issues of chronic illness and the families they bring in. Ive had a diabetic with a blood sugar over 500 scream and cuss because we took her 1 liter coke away from her in the hospital. Your issues are not different than the issues human medicine deals with. The details are just different. The politics of human medicine is sickening. The "kiss my ring" syndrome is rampant and they think their "**** don't stink. the hours are grueling, the charts never seem to stop coming and the pea soup of politics is ridiculous. Patients not only can call and complain and demand. now we have email that they can do it with as well. so fun. =/. If you think youre getting off at a certain time... add 3 hrs. That person who walks thru the door... you get to deal with them... that person demanding and upset just somehow figured it was your fault and made sure to seek out a manager. Every appointment is followed up by phone calls and evaluations of your performance. Your career lives and dies by these numbers. Your ability to give patient A what she wants. (demands) even if she doesn't need antibiotics or the tests she feels she wants becomes your priority. keeping her happy. Then their is the protocol. The one that tells you how you will do medicine. You may want to try something less toxic... or something simple. However, you need to make that follow-up appt because make no mistake medicine is a business.... they need for you to keep coming back. So they give patient A what she wants. Don't let yourself be caught in the "MD's don't have to put up with crap" they do. It is just a different pile of it.
 
I Just left 2 years of medical school... and spent thousands of hours in the trauma center, hospitals, clinics etc. Patients are cranky, they yell, cuss and demand. They demand refills, or an Rx they saw on TV and they want it now. Ive dealt with liars, screamers, demanders, cryers, and all the emotional issues of chronic illness and the families they bring in. Ive had a diabetic with a blood sugar over 500 scream and cuss because we took her 1 liter coke away from her in the hospital. Your issues are not different than the issues human medicine deals with. The details are just different. The politics of human medicine is sickening. The "kiss my ring" syndrome is rampant and they think their "**** don't stink. the hours are grueling, the charts never seem to stop coming and the pea soup of politics is ridiculous. Patients not only can call and complain and demand. now we have email that they can do it with as well. so fun. =/. If you think youre getting off at a certain time... add 3 hrs. That person who walks thru the door... you get to deal with them... that person demanding and upset just somehow figured it was your fault and made sure to seek out a manager. Every appointment is followed up by phone calls and evaluations of your performance. Your career lives and dies by these numbers. Your ability to give patient A what she wants. (demands) even if she doesn't need antibiotics or the tests she feels she wants becomes your priority. keeping her happy. Then their is the protocol. The one that tells you how you will do medicine. You may want to try something less toxic... or something simple. However, you need to make that follow-up appt because make no mistake medicine is a business.... they need for you to keep coming back. So they give patient A what she wants. Don't let yourself be caught in the "MD's don't have to put up with crap" they do. It is just a different pile of it.

Oh I know MD's deal with similar crap. However, I have NEVER seen an MD come out to calm/placate a screaming/pissing patient in the lobby of a Dr office demanding to be seen immediately. Ever. The receptionists and nurses deal with that. As vets, not only are we to deal with that person but we are expected to drop everything to see that person and their pet instantly. I have yet to see a screaming fit in a doctor's office end with the doctor him or herself coming to the lobby to deal with the person.

I have never seen an MD office take in a patient as a walk-in at the last minute right before close. EVER. (Obviously walk-in urgent care clinics are an exception) We are forced to in vet med. Think of a GP vet as your family doctor's office, not some walk-in clinic or urgent care. Some people seem to not recognize that fact that most veterinary hospitals are simple GP's just like the family MD. Minus the fact that we do 10x what your family MD would ever do.

The corporate/business bull**** you mentioned, yup, we deal with that too. Clients can call and complain to the corporate office who just owns the clinic, basically people who have never stepped foot in a veterinary clinic and have no idea of how they run, so they then bend over backwards to cater to Mrs. Jones who let her cat suffer for 4 weeks but is pissed we won't see Mr. Wiggles after we have already closed for the day. We actually get in trouble for that ****.

It is always about pleasing the people and never about performing good, quality medicine. Ever.

Every appointment we have is sent a link to evaluate us via email. Yippee.

It isn't a different pile, it is the same pile except we also get to deal with money issues too! Yay!

When was the last time you discussed how much a procedure, blood work, nail trim, medication, etc, is going to cost a patient? You probably don't. We have to. And, yes, I get insurance is another separate, obnoxious headache to deal with, but damn would it be nice to at least be able to do a little something, instead of send people away empty-handed because, again, they literally have $0 (or so they claim).

I get similar things do happen in human medicine, but people seem to understand that if they call up their doctor they won't be seen that same day and when they do have an appointment waiting 40 plus minutes is "normal". Heck tell a client in vet med we can't get them in until the following day and you will have the most irate person ever on the other line not only that they are taking it to facebook to complain about how you didn't help them and you are an awful, horrible person who doesn't care. Oh and have a client wait more than 5 minutes past their appointment time in a vet clinic and you are going to get the wrath of Satan himself.

There is a certain expectation of human medicine that society has become adjusted to that is 100% unacceptable when it happens in veterinary medicine. Ask any veterinarian.
 
As vets, not only are we to deal with that person but we are expected to drop everything to see that person and their pet instantly.
Nope - not in every clinic. In fact, I'd say not in most clinics in my experience. Of course, the owner has to hire and train good staff, but part of their job is protecting the vets from ridiculousness.

It is true that we must work with clients' disposable income - something that human doctors don't need to worry about - and that requires we engage in more customer service and take financial detours, but there's no way I'd trade being a vet in a good practice for being an MD.
 
So, I'll start the thread.

Are new grads dismayed by how hard practice turns out to be?
Do the older vets remember what they thought?

Honestly, I think vet school was harder than practice. There's an end to every shift in practice, even if it can be long (I mean ****, I'm still at work at almost midnight. It was a rough day). But things get done on a daily basis. In vet school there was like no end in sight. Being "caught up" was not a thing. Even if I'm drowning in a sea of walk ins and appointments from hell, by the end of the day I'm caught up. That feeling of being behind day in and day out was probably the most stressful for me.

I don't think my job per say is "hard." There are frustrations on a daily basis of things I can't always control, whether it be dingus clients or idiot staff members, and my work and being able to juggle all that I do daily is a challenge... but it's not hard.

Honestly, my undergraduate studies was probably the "hardest" because I couldn't seem to excel no matter how hard I tried. At least with vet school all you had to do was pass exams every week, and be the best you could be in clinics, and that was more than enough. In practice, I think I do well probably 98% of the time (client leaves satisfied, medically did fine), and that's outcome I'm happy with.
 
Nope - not in every clinic. In fact, I'd say not in most clinics in my experience. Of course, the owner has to hire and train good staff, but part of their job is protecting the vets from ridiculousness.

Yeah come hang about the clinics in my area, you will sing a different song.

Guess I should have clarified it is clinic specific. But in the majority of clinics around here, they will expect a vet to see those last minute walk ins and deal with that person when they roll into mass hysterics. Basically the training of staff around here is to "never say no". I have slowly changed the thinking at a couple of clinics, but it is a very slow change.

I remember being 2 months out of vet school, alone at the clinic and being called out of an exam room to deal with a client. None of the staff would even talk with her once they pulled up the following info on her record. She had a warning in her chart from 3-4 years prior that she was drunk, belligerent and cops were almost called on her. She presented without a pet, but wanted to have her dog seen. I could tell she was "off" (probably high), but she wasn't causing any trouble. However, the staff were petrified to even talk with her, even the supervisor/manager wouldn't. So here I am brand-spanking new grad, alone, told to deal with this person. It was fine, she ended up not coming back with her dog, I am thinking the dog was a hallucination from the drugs, but who knows.

Anytime things have even had the potential to "blow up" (even if they haven't) I was always told to deal with the client. The staff did not have to.
 
My policy with staff "gatekeeping" is that if the issue was associated with me, I will handle it.

But if my pea for brains front desk staff make stupid promises to randos and needy clients that should never have been made, I will make them deal with their own mistake. Just because some person asked to get a phone call from a doctor doesn't mean it's going to happen. Whoever made the inappropriate promise gets to call them back and deal with it if it's an unreasonable request. Um yeah... I'm not calling this random non client with a 14 year old cat who hasn't been to a vet in 10 years about a Facebook post she saw about some random food recall. Oh, you told them a doctor would call them today? Well that's not happening. You get to call that crazy person back and tell them that'a not happening and that you will be happy to schedule an exam/consult (preferably with someone else). Oh, this person says she doesn't want to pay for an exam so you said a doctor will call them instead to talk about their vomiting dog and what can they do at home? Yeah that's not happening either. It probably would have been so much easier for yourself if you did the right thing in the first place. Now they're doubly upset because you promised a doctor would call TODAY because they're so worried. They won't be happy that you're calling just to tell them that isn't happening.

As for walk in appts, I'll see them until the cows come home, as long as people don't mind waiting. Sometimes hours if my schedule is super full or there are a lot of walk ins. If the front desk didn't set those expectations straight, I don't care that the walk in is getting impatient. They get to deal with that. Not my fault. I'm working as fast as I can. They can feel the wrath from the client for 1.) inappropriately overbooking me so we have no same day sick slots, and for 2.) not making it clear that there may be a long wait and discussing that booking on another date or going to the ER 10 min down the road is an option. They're the ones that said "come right down" so they can deal with it. Also, you told the acutely very sick not eating pet to come right down 5 min before close? Sure I'll see them alright. But did you realize you also have to stay for 2 hrs past closing....? I don't really care that you're here until 11pm and need to work tomorrow morning. That was your own damn call, so don't complain to me. Had you asked me first, I would have given you the freedom to decide what you tell them, or would have advised likely best for patient to go to ER due to probable need for hospitalization and extensive workup.
 
My policy with staff "gatekeeping" is that if the issue was associated with me, I will handle it.

But if my pea for brains front desk staff make stupid promises to randos and needy clients that should never have been made, I will make them deal with their own mistake. Just because some person asked to get a phone call from a doctor doesn't mean it's going to happen. Whoever made the inappropriate promise gets to call them back and deal with it if it's an unreasonable request. Um yeah... I'm not calling this random non client with a 14 year old cat who hasn't been to a vet in 10 years about a Facebook post she saw about some random food recall. Oh, you told them a doctor would call them today? Well that's not happening. You get to call that crazy person back and tell them that'a not happening and that you will be happy to schedule an exam/consult (preferably with someone else). Oh, this person says she doesn't want to pay for an exam so you said a doctor will call them instead to talk about their vomiting dog and what can they do at home? Yeah that's not happening either. It probably would have been so much easier for yourself if you did the right thing in the first place. Now they're doubly upset because you promised a doctor would call TODAY because they're so worried. They won't be happy that you're calling just to tell them that isn't happening.

As for walk in appts, I'll see them until the cows come home, as long as people don't mind waiting. Sometimes hours if my schedule is super full or there are a lot of walk ins. If the front desk didn't set those expectations straight, I don't care that the walk in is getting impatient. They get to deal with that. Not my fault. I'm working as fast as I can. They can feel the wrath from the client for 1.) inappropriately overbooking me so we have no same day sick slots, and for 2.) not making it clear that there may be a long wait and discussing that booking on another date or going to the ER 10 min down the road is an option. They're the ones that said "come right down" so they can deal with it. Also, you told the acutely very sick not eating pet to come right down 5 min before close? Sure I'll see them alright. But did you realize you also have to stay for 2 hrs past closing....? I don't really care that you're here until 11pm and need to work tomorrow morning. That was your own damn call, so don't complain to me. Had you asked me first, I would have given you the freedom to decide what you tell them, or would have advised likely best for patient to go to ER due to probable need for hospitalization and extensive workup.

My problem with the bolded is that it does not take into consideration the Dr. What if I couldn't stay late to see that last minute walk in? What if I was picking up someone at the airport? Or I have dinner plans in an hour? Or I just simply am done with *****s for the day and want to go sit on my ass at home? I don't mind seeing some of these and have seen them, but I think it is common courtesy to be sure that 1. The Dr can stay 2. The tech(s) can stay 3. The receptionist can stay. That is what pisses me off about these is the lack of consideration for everyone in the clinic. Not only that though, but the lack of consideration for the client. Since often these cases do need fluids or extensive diagnostics and now they are paying twice at two facilities and possibly delaying care by dicking around in my clinic for a bit doing the very limited things I can do at 5 minutes prior to close.
 
My problem with the bolded is that it does not take into consideration the Dr. What if I couldn't stay late to see that last minute walk in? What if I was picking up someone at the airport? Or I have dinner plans in an hour? Or I just simply am done with *****s for the day and want to go sit on my ass at home? I don't mind seeing some of these and have seen them, but I think it is common courtesy to be sure that 1. The Dr can stay 2. The tech(s) can stay 3. The receptionist can stay. That is what pisses me off about these is the lack of consideration for everyone in the clinic. Not only that though, but the lack of consideration for the client. Since often these cases do need fluids or extensive diagnostics and now they are paying twice at two facilities and possibly delaying care by dicking around in my clinic for a bit doing the very limited things I can do at 5 minutes prior to close.
I guess that's why I choose late shifts, because I don't plan on doing anything else. My front desk staff is dumb as ****, and I don't blame them because we only pay minimum wage. The only ones who would stick around for that ****ty pay for that ****ty a job are generally dumb as ****. And we really can't cure stupidity. They're literally too stupid to be expected to do anything right... so expecting them to think and process these things makes things even more frustrating. So I've just resigned myself to it. Doesn't bother me personally much. It bothers me when other clinics don't see their own sick patients, so I try to see at least all of ours. It's also why I only have ever done 2-3 appt days per week. I will commit myself those days, but that's it. On my surgery days I have 0 responsibilities beyond my surgical patients that I do not allow to be overbooked.

I feel bad for my staff so I tell them it's their choice whether I will see things after hours. Only exception are patients that we are actively managing that need prompt care. I will only say yes to emergency surgeries after hours if I have a tech who wants to be involved. Usually someone is excited to. And I will buy them dinner.
 
I guess that's why I choose late shifts, because I don't plan on doing anything else. My front desk staff is dumb as ****, and I don't blame them because we only pay minimum wage. The only ones who would stick around for that ****ty pay for that ****ty a job are generally dumb as ****. And we really can't cure stupidity. They're literally too stupid to be expected to do anything right... so expecting them to think and process these things makes things even more frustrating. So I've just resigned myself to it. Doesn't bother me personally much. It bothers me when other clinics don't see their own sick patients, so I try to see at least all of ours. It's also why I only have ever done 2-3 appt days per week. I will commit myself those days, but that's it. On my surgery days I have 0 responsibilities beyond my surgical patients that I do not allow to be overbooked.

I feel bad for my staff so I tell them it's their choice whether I will see things after hours. Only exception are patients that we are actively managing that need prompt care. I will only say yes to emergency surgeries after hours if I have a tech who wants to be involved. Usually someone is excited to. And I will buy them dinner.

I'm fairly certain it is a receptionist requirement to be dumb.
 
I'm fairly certain it is a receptionist requirement to be dumb.
Except for the really good ones that are worth just as much as your best technicians. The ones who can "handle" just about anything for you, who knows all the clients, can fix the schedule before it's a problem, triage phone calls, streamline and expedite, and manage all the dumb dumb minions.
 
Except for the really good ones that are worth just as much as your best technicians. The ones who can "handle" just about anything for you, who knows all the clients, can fix the schedule before it's a problem, triage phone calls, streamline and expedite, and manage all the dumb dumb minions.

Those are the ones you buy all the snacks/gifts for.
 
My front desk staff is dumb as ****, and I don't blame them because we only pay minimum wage. The only ones who would stick around for that ****ty pay for that ****ty a job are generally dumb as ****. And we really can't cure stupidity.
We were just talking about this yesterday -- the owner of a clinic down the road is always frustrated and bitching about her staff, but she will only pay minimum wage and complains about how high it is. So she gets lousy staff who don't stay long because they're being paid minimum and have to put up with a grumpy owner. But the clinic where I'm working now only hires licensed techs (they do all tasks, including reception), pays far above minimum, and has smart, capable, longstanding staff. As you said, it's very dependent on the individual clinic owner about how they choose to run things.
 
Had you asked me first, I would have given you the freedom to decide what you tell them, or would have advised likely best for patient to go to ER due to probable need for hospitalization and extensive workup.
Your receptionists don't ask you first about emergencies? I've never worked in a practice where we (whoever fielded the call) didn't first say 'hey doc, are you cool with so-and-so coming in for x at this time?' I guess if they're really as unintelligent as you say, they don't realize they should probably ask you first. Scheduling a sick/well visit in an open slot is one thing, but going ahead and telling an emergency to come in is a different ball game.
I Just left 2 years of medical school... and spent thousands of hours in the trauma center, hospitals, clinics etc. Patients are cranky, they yell, cuss and demand. They demand refills, or an Rx they saw on TV and they want it now. Ive dealt with liars, screamers, demanders, cryers, and all the emotional issues of chronic illness and the families they bring in. Ive had a diabetic with a blood sugar over 500 scream and cuss because we took her 1 liter coke away from her in the hospital. Your issues are not different than the issues human medicine deals with. The details are just different. The politics of human medicine is sickening. The "kiss my ring" syndrome is rampant and they think their "**** don't stink. the hours are grueling, the charts never seem to stop coming and the pea soup of politics is ridiculous. Patients not only can call and complain and demand. now we have email that they can do it with as well. so fun. =/. If you think youre getting off at a certain time... add 3 hrs. That person who walks thru the door... you get to deal with them... that person demanding and upset just somehow figured it was your fault and made sure to seek out a manager. Every appointment is followed up by phone calls and evaluations of your performance. Your career lives and dies by these numbers. Your ability to give patient A what she wants. (demands) even if she doesn't need antibiotics or the tests she feels she wants becomes your priority. keeping her happy. Then their is the protocol. The one that tells you how you will do medicine. You may want to try something less toxic... or something simple. However, you need to make that follow-up appt because make no mistake medicine is a business.... they need for you to keep coming back. So they give patient A what she wants. Don't let yourself be caught in the "MD's don't have to put up with crap" they do. It is just a different pile of it.
So to me, yes all the above sucks, but we experience all the same bs. I especially agree with DVMD regarding vets being the ones to field all the worst clients. Usually the only person in the building who can get the client to stop screaming/swearing/throwing chairs (literally) is the vet. And even then, the vet still gets the verbal abuse but in my experience the client feels they have an ounce of authority so they back off a titch.

You bring up a diabetic flipping out over coke, but it's their own choice to keep drinking 6L of Coke a day, AMA. One of the more frustrating aspects of vet med is that the animal has no say in whether or not their owners are compliant (ignoring financial/physical/mental issues that may prevent a perfectly responsible owner from treating a condition). I'm not trying to one-up anyone here but that's a rather unique frustration to vet med. I suppose you would on rare occasion see it in pediatrics as well, but then again there are also resources for those who think a child is being neglected medically/emotionally, assuming said neglectful parents even sought medical care. You can't really call the cops/CPS on an owner who declines to give their diabetic dog insulin just because they flat out don't want to or don't believe in medical care, or have some other issue as to why they either are ignorant to your instructions or are unwilling to follow them.
 
Your receptionists don't ask you first about emergencies? I've never worked in a practice where we (whoever fielded the call) didn't first say 'hey doc, are you cool with so-and-so coming in for x at this time?'

In general, the policy on emergencies is up to the clinic owner or practice manager. I've worked in very few situations where the associate doctors were given that discretion. Usually, the policy is take everything (at least in my area). In fact, at my last job, the practice manager specifically told the receptionists NOT to ask the associate doctors before loading us up with sick pets or "emergencies," whether during the day or at closing, because she said that we associate doctors were just lazy and would say no. Ummm, no..... if the schedule is already filled with appointments q15min (and if it wasn't, you'd just plug them in and this wouldn't be an issue), and we're chronically understaffed with vet assistants, we aren't always ABLE to provide optimal care to walk-in pets. The pet would be better served by waiting for an open appointment slot (if not a true emergency - itchy skin, the "emergency" otitis, etc), going elsewhere (many of these were non-clients), or going to the e-clinic (if a true emergency). Considering all of those options isn't lazy... it's ethical.
 
In general, the policy on emergencies is up to the clinic owner or practice manager. I've worked in very few situations where the associate doctors were given that discretion. Usually, the policy is take everything (at least in my area). In fact, at my last job, the practice manager specifically told the receptionists NOT to ask the associate doctors before loading us up with sick pets or "emergencies," whether during the day or at closing, because she said that we associate doctors were just lazy and would say no. Ummm, no..... if the schedule is already filled with appointments q15min (and if it wasn't, you'd just plug them in and this wouldn't be an issue), and we're chronically understaffed with vet assistants, we aren't always ABLE to provide optimal care to walk-in pets. The pet would be better served by waiting for an open appointment slot (if not a true emergency - itchy skin, the "emergency" otitis, etc), going elsewhere (many of these were non-clients), or going to the e-clinic (if a true emergency). Considering all of those options isn't lazy... it's ethical.
I've only worked in practices owned by the DVM there. I mean, they took everything anyways, but we would have been yelled at if we didn't at least ask the doctor first.
 
In fact, at my last job, the practice manager specifically told the receptionists NOT to ask the associate doctors before loading us up with sick pets or "emergencies," whether during the day or at closing, because she said that we associate doctors were just lazy and would say no. Ummm, no..... if the schedule is already filled with appointments q15min (and if it wasn't, you'd just plug them in and this wouldn't be an issue), and we're chronically understaffed with vet assistants, we aren't always ABLE to provide optimal care to walk-in pets. The pet would be better served by waiting for an open appointment slot (if not a true emergency - itchy skin, the "emergency" otitis, etc), going elsewhere (many of these were non-clients), or going to the e-clinic (if a true emergency). Considering all of those options isn't lazy... it's ethical.

This. So much this. If I am already fully booked with a short staff how the **** does anyone think I can provide adequate care to more pets? We already can't provide adequate care to the scheduled appointments, definitely not wise to add in MORE pets especially true emergencies. It isn't because of laziness (though I will admit there are some nights where I really do just want to be done and go home) but what really drives my ultimate decision is: 1. How busy are we already? 2. Am I short on staff? 3. Do I have appropriate staff? (I was once left with two assistants who couldn't run in-house blood work and couldn't take x-rays). 4. Am I going to delay care of an animal that really needs an emergency/critical care clinic with better diagnostics abilities? 5. Am I going to piss off people by making them waiting extended periods of time in order to fit this walk-in/emergency? Number 5 isn't as big of a consideration, but if the walk-in/ER is a new client (which they often are) and I have good, regular clients that are now being forced to wait, that isn't fair. I could lose a good client that way.

So, I hate it when office managers tell the staff to not ask the doctor, it is bull**** and they don't have a license or livelihood that could be ruined. I have point blank told a couple of office managers that while I am glad to see they are willing to risk MY license and livelihood by ignoring my recommendations, I am not. If they continue to push, I tell them the instant they are ready to pay me $400k plus all potential lost income I could make over the next 30 years, then they can play the "flirt with someone else's license and livelihood." Tends to shut them up fast.
 
In vet school there was like no end in sight. Being "caught up" was not a thing. Even if I'm drowning in a sea of walk ins and appointments from hell, by the end of the day I'm caught up. That feeling of being behind day in and day out was probably the most stressful for me.
I sort of echo this. I think vet school and practice are hard in different ways, especially now that I'm day practice only with no on-call. Vet school was like constant, low grade stress. Barring summer vacation, you're never really done with anything. You sit in lecture or do clinical cases for 8-12 hours a day, then go home and study some more. Even when you take a night off, you're aware that all that didn't go away, you're just delaying it. But after first semester, I was confident in my ability to at least pass, so there was no major stress or consequences. Practice is like higher grade stress but with an endpoint, and it comes in spurts. So the annual wellness and vaccine appointments are pretty chill, but you'll have some high stress cases (surgery that doesn't go well, DKA, HBC, CHF, sudden anesthetic complication/death, etc) and some impossible to please clients. But when I'm done for the day, I'M DONE. I go home, I watch TV, I play with my cats, ride my horse, play nerdy games, etc. I leave work at work.

Think of stress as being a 1-10 scale. Vet school is a 4 or 5, but it's all the time. Practice can go from a 2 to an 8 very quickly, but it fluctuates; sometimes it's a 0 (days off, hug a puppy, thank you card from clients), and sometimes it's a 10 (serious complication or board complaint).

(And then there's day practice with after hours on-call which is just the worst of both worlds. There is no amount of money that you could pay me to do that again.)
 
I sort of echo this. I think vet school and practice are hard in different ways, especially now that I'm day practice only with no on-call. Vet school was like constant, low grade stress. Barring summer vacation, you're never really done with anything. You sit in lecture or do clinical cases for 8-12 hours a day, then go home and study some more. Even when you take a night off, you're aware that all that didn't go away, you're just delaying it. But after first semester, I was confident in my ability to at least pass, so there was no major stress or consequences. Practice is like higher grade stress but with an endpoint, and it comes in spurts. So the annual wellness and vaccine appointments are pretty chill, but you'll have some high stress cases (surgery that doesn't go well, DKA, HBC, CHF, sudden anesthetic complication/death, etc) and some impossible to please clients. But when I'm done for the day, I'M DONE. I go home, I watch TV, I play with my cats, ride my horse, play nerdy games, etc. I leave work at work.

I think the contrast is especially big for me because I'm someone who thrives on procrastination. In practice, there isn't much to procrastinate on. Especially in a multidoctor practice, you have to have your **** done before you leave so others can pick up if needed if the client calls or patient comes back or others call clients with results on your behalf. I have no choice so I do it. Most days aren't that stressful. Sometimes it's really busy so there's a lot of things on my mind at once, and idiot reception often makes life harder than it should be. But like the really stressful stuff involving irate clients (that personally affect me), adverse medical outcomes, threat of malpractice, etc... are pretty rare. Rare enough that it's not something that's weighing on me. It's true that one of these things can be devastating for days to weeks to months, but thankfully it's not a common occurence.

I was a super procrastinator in vet school so it was maximally stressful for a couple days every week. I never went to class, and never kept up with anything, so I didn't even know what an exam was about or what lectures it even covered until about 4-5 days before the exam. I learned everything for every test in about 48-72 hrs. I'd sleep, volunteer, do research, spend time with my SO for about 3 days of the week, and I'd spend 1 day organizing all the information I would need to digest over the next 2-3 days, then it was a hellish marathon from there. It was like this weird circle of living hell I lived in.
 
I'm fairly certain it is a receptionist requirement to be dumb.
As someone whose most recent job before vet school was as a receptionist before... not always true. 5 years of tech experience but front desk jobs pays better? Yeah put me there. There are many who end up in that role that seem to be on whatever little power trip they can get but there are some good ones 😛
 
As someone whose most recent job before vet school was as a receptionist before... not always true. 5 years of tech experience but front desk jobs pays better? Yeah put me there. There are many who end up in that role that seem to be on whatever little power trip they can get but there are some good ones 😛

No one denied that good receptionists happen, just that the vast majority lack common sense when it comes to scheduling and thinking things through.

I worked reception as well prior to vet school.
 
I actually really enjoyed vet school - the constant learning, the opportunity to interact with other smart/nerdy kids, etc. I haven't enjoyed practice anywhere near as much. I'm in GP, so it's pretty routine and not all that intellectually stimulating, most of my day is spent interacting with owners who are idiots, etc. I miss vet school!!
Now this is a particularly interesting comment (IMHO) which points at something we've noticed regarding some of the vets we have had (or seen records from other practices) vs. the way we like to run the practice....You end up with the clients that matches the practice philosophy.

Our approach is that a client comes to us to fix a problem (if possible). We believe the client does not want to come back multiple times to figure it out (sometimes you only get one chance or they will go elsewhere - we have all seen the vet hopppers). So, we believe in appropriately working things up really well as close as you can get to boarded internal medicine level or university w/o being boarded. Of course, we do the medical treatment plans (estimates) and get approval and discuss with the client where they will like end up going down a treatment plan path. Beginning with the end in mind is entirely another topic....

We do the things we are really good at and refer as needed. E.g. all rads go out to be read by Board Certified Radiologists, we have ultrasound and us it, but all call in traveling boarded internal med people for ultrasound, use a very good boarded surgeon in addition to doing our own surgeries. Of course, we like medicine and think it is really interesting and keep learning and always want to be better.

Some vets we have employed and others whose clients bring their records to us, do not seem to want to practice at the level and would like to turf the hard stuff to someone else. It seems that it comes down to a philosophical view of how you want to practice and finding the place that matches you.

Is this a conscious individual choice, as in "I do not want to do all the complex stuff?
Or maybe it is hard to practice at a high level in a GP where no one else cares that much, so you just dumb it down to get along.
You get tired because thinking hard all day long is exhausting (it is we know)
 
Except for the really good ones that are worth just as much as your best technicians. The ones who can "handle" just about anything for you, who knows all the clients, can fix the schedule before it's a problem, triage phone calls, streamline and expedite, and manage all the dumb dumb minions.
Yes, a good receptionist is worth their weight in gold, it is one of the hardest jobs in the practice.
 
We do the things we are really good at and refer as needed. E.g. all rads go out to be read by Board Certified Radiologists, we have ultrasound and us it, but all call in traveling boarded internal med people for ultrasound, use a very good boarded surgeon in addition to doing our own surgeries. Of course, we like medicine and think it is really interesting and keep learning and always want to be better.
A radiologist should be the one using/interpreting ultrasounds, not internal medicine (if you're talking about using boarded peeps)

Some vets we have employed and others whose clients bring their records to us, do not seem to want to practice at the level and would like to turf the hard stuff to someone else. It seems that it comes down to a philosophical view of how you want to practice and finding the place that matches you.

Is this a conscious individual choice, as in "I do not want to do all the complex stuff?
Or maybe it is hard to practice at a high level in a GP where no one else cares that much, so you just dumb it down to get along.
You get tired because thinking hard all day long is exhausting (it is we know)
Or maybe a GP vet is trying to offer the best medicine for their patients and understand that sometimes that means referring the more complex cases so they can get the best care/treatment? Maybe they want what's best for their patients that doesn't have to do with the bank account of the clinic? Maybe they have 6 other appointments lined up and can't devote the time and energy to a complicated case without compromising patient care? Maybe you should quit this "holier than thou" attitude and realize that you're not a vet and thus not qualified to be making decisions about which cases each individual vet should be taking?

Not in the mood for this and I'm not even a GP...
 
Now this is a particularly interesting comment (IMHO) which points at something we've noticed regarding some of the vets we have had (or seen records from other practices) vs. the way we like to run the practice....You end up with the clients that matches the practice philosophy.

Our approach is that a client comes to us to fix a problem (if possible). We believe the client does not want to come back multiple times to figure it out (sometimes you only get one chance or they will go elsewhere - we have all seen the vet hopppers). So, we believe in appropriately working things up really well as close as you can get to boarded internal medicine level or university w/o being boarded. Of course, we do the medical treatment plans (estimates) and get approval and discuss with the client where they will like end up going down a treatment plan path. Beginning with the end in mind is entirely another topic....

We do the things we are really good at and refer as needed. E.g. all rads go out to be read by Board Certified Radiologists, we have ultrasound and us it, but all call in traveling boarded internal med people for ultrasound, use a very good boarded surgeon in addition to doing our own surgeries. Of course, we like medicine and think it is really interesting and keep learning and always want to be better.

Some vets we have employed and others whose clients bring their records to us, do not seem to want to practice at the level and would like to turf the hard stuff to someone else. It seems that it comes down to a philosophical view of how you want to practice and finding the place that matches you.

Is this a conscious individual choice, as in "I do not want to do all the complex stuff?
Or maybe it is hard to practice at a high level in a GP where no one else cares that much, so you just dumb it down to get along.
You get tired because thinking hard all day long is exhausting (it is we know)

I'm surprised you haven't had a vet tell you to piss off. Though they probably are, just not to your face.
 
Some vets we have employed and others whose clients bring their records to us, do not seem to want to practice at the level and would like to turf the hard stuff to someone else. It seems that it comes down to a philosophical view of how you want to practice and finding the place that matches you.
Yes, some vets follow standard of care and refer when needed.

Clients might not like it, but the client isn't always right.
 
Now this is a particularly interesting comment (IMHO) which points at something we've noticed regarding some of the vets we have had (or seen records from other practices) vs. the way we like to run the practice....You end up with the clients that matches the practice philosophy.

Our approach is that a client comes to us to fix a problem (if possible). We believe the client does not want to come back multiple times to figure it out (sometimes you only get one chance or they will go elsewhere - we have all seen the vet hopppers). So, we believe in appropriately working things up really well as close as you can get to boarded internal medicine level or university w/o being boarded. Of course, we do the medical treatment plans (estimates) and get approval and discuss with the client where they will like end up going down a treatment plan path. Beginning with the end in mind is entirely another topic....

We do the things we are really good at and refer as needed. E.g. all rads go out to be read by Board Certified Radiologists, we have ultrasound and us it, but all call in traveling boarded internal med people for ultrasound, use a very good boarded surgeon in addition to doing our own surgeries. Of course, we like medicine and think it is really interesting and keep learning and always want to be better.

Some vets we have employed and others whose clients bring their records to us, do not seem to want to practice at the level and would like to turf the hard stuff to someone else. It seems that it comes down to a philosophical view of how you want to practice and finding the place that matches you.

Is this a conscious individual choice, as in "I do not want to do all the complex stuff?
Or maybe it is hard to practice at a high level in a GP where no one else cares that much, so you just dumb it down to get along.
You get tired because thinking hard all day long is exhausting (it is we know)

What does any of that have to do with the post you quoted? Nothing, really. You think that because she says it's not very intellectually stimulating that it's because she's decided she doesn't want to work up cases? Wow, that's insulting, presumptuous, and (no surprise) rude. Especially when you think that passing stuff on to Boarded vets is part of getting "intellectually stimulated" by cases. Really, most cases that bring people in don't need stimulating thought (nor a major work up). Diarrhea after dietary indiscretion, otitis after swimming, hot spots in the summer, cat bite abscesses (I saw 2 today - there was no work up or stimulating thought required), corneal abrasions, infected anal sacs, constipation......those are the bulk of a lot of a GPs work.

You are so belittling without really having any idea of what a vet is thinking.
 
Now this is a particularly interesting comment (IMHO) which points at something we've noticed regarding some of the vets we have had (or seen records from other practices) vs. the way we like to run the practice....You end up with the clients that matches the practice philosophy.

Our approach is that a client comes to us to fix a problem (if possible). We believe the client does not want to come back multiple times to figure it out (sometimes you only get one chance or they will go elsewhere - we have all seen the vet hopppers). So, we believe in appropriately working things up really well as close as you can get to boarded internal medicine level or university w/o being boarded. Of course, we do the medical treatment plans (estimates) and get approval and discuss with the client where they will like end up going down a treatment plan path. Beginning with the end in mind is entirely another topic....

We do the things we are really good at and refer as needed. E.g. all rads go out to be read by Board Certified Radiologists, we have ultrasound and us it, but all call in traveling boarded internal med people for ultrasound, use a very good boarded surgeon in addition to doing our own surgeries. Of course, we like medicine and think it is really interesting and keep learning and always want to be better.

Some vets we have employed and others whose clients bring their records to us, do not seem to want to practice at the level and would like to turf the hard stuff to someone else. It seems that it comes down to a philosophical view of how you want to practice and finding the place that matches you.

Is this a conscious individual choice, as in "I do not want to do all the complex stuff?
Or maybe it is hard to practice at a high level in a GP where no one else cares that much, so you just dumb it down to get along.
You get tired because thinking hard all day long is exhausting (it is we know)

As an ethical doctor, you work up and treat the "hard" stuff as you call it, if the client is given the choice of all options including seeking a specialist's care who can do this particular thing better than you, and they choose to have you continue care. Not because you just want to or because management tells you to.

If you have a good tertiary referral center nearby with radiologists, you should provide that option, because I'm sorry, but a traveling internist just isn't good enough for a lot of things. If you waste your one shot at having the client pursue an ultrasound, and the patient needs further specialized care, or lands in the ER due to decline of the pet, that ultrasound they paid for at your clinic is worth ****.

A number of eye things like acute glaucoma and indolent ulcers are absolutely best managed by an ophthalmologist, and that option should be presented. It'a not that a GP can't manage these things. And sometimes it works well without complications. But you are being a stubborn self righteous dingus unless you at least bring referral up as an option, and don't explain how horribly wrong this could go.

If you don't at least offer a derm referral for the allergy cases that actually want immunotherapy, then you're an dingus. No, it's not the same to just do the blood test and get a commercial injection and follow the schedule. It's sort of an art. What can go wrong? Well if it doesn't work, there's a chance it would have worked with the dermatologist, but you've wasted a ton of the client's money and maybe a year of time, and burned that patient's chance of immunotherapy.

If you have a cat with bad stomatitis, you're an dingus if you don't at least offer referral. Yeah I feel comfortable performing full mouth extractions. But given the relatively high odds of FME not resolving the issue fully, and knowing that I'm more likely to leave small amounts of tooth tissue than a dentist (and we would have to wonder if that happened if kitty doesn't do well), nevermind that a dentist will be able to do it better and faster, I at least have to offer.

Especially if you do not have 24 hr staffing, including a doctor, there are just certain things that you need to at least offer referral.

I do everything for my own pets including emergency surgery if it's something that I can handle, be it foreign body surgery, PU, amputation, placing and managing E-tubes, etc... My pets are collectively as challenging as they come. But the reason why my ancient cat is alive and still kicking comfortably is thanks to the multiple internists, cardiologists, radiologists, criticalists, and dermatologists who have been involved in the meticulous care she requires. My clients at least deserve to be given the options for this level of care. If they don't elect it, that's fine. I'll do whatever is indicated to the best of my abilities. But, there gets to be a point at which it would just be more efficient and sometimes even less costly for the client to just take the referral.

Since we're playing the game of making assumptions, I'll say that usually the "I keep all the complex cases and try never to refer because I'm awesome" hospitals are the dated malpractice-worthy hospitals with hospital managers who have no clue what modern standard of care is. If you don't want people to make that assumption about your hospital (which is kind of legit based on your posts), you should stop doing that to others. Also, no matter how experienced you are, and no matter how much you think you know how doctors think, you haven't a clue. I have a hard and fast rule for what I will tolerate as a doctor. I will not stay at a hospital where non-DVMs have any say in medical decision making. I will also not work where I directly report to a PM. I will only report to a DVM owner or medical director. Perhaps it's your poking your head in where it doesn't belong that strained your relationship with previous DVMs at your practice. I would not tolerate your patronizing attitudes as a DVM in a practice. There are plenty of other jobs out there, where I wouldn't have to deal with such bull****.
 
As an ethical doctor, you work up and treat the "hard" stuff as you call it, if the client is given the choice of all options including seeking a specialist's care who can do this particular thing better than you, and they choose to have you continue care. Not because you just want to or because management tells you to.

If you have a good tertiary referral center nearby with radiologists, you should provide that option, because I'm sorry, but a traveling internist just isn't good enough for a lot of things. If you waste your one shot at having the client pursue an ultrasound, and the patient needs further specialized care, or lands in the ER due to decline of the pet, that ultrasound they paid for at your clinic is worth ****.

A number of eye things like acute glaucoma and indolent ulcers are absolutely best managed by an ophthalmologist, and that option should be presented. It'a not that a GP can't manage these things. And sometimes it works well without complications. But you are being a stubborn self righteous dingus unless you at least bring referral up as an option, and don't explain how horribly wrong this could go.

If you don't at least offer a derm referral for the allergy cases that actually want immunotherapy, then you're an dingus. No, it's not the same to just do the blood test and get a commercial injection and follow the schedule. It's sort of an art. What can go wrong? Well if it doesn't work, there's a chance it would have worked with the dermatologist, but you've wasted a ton of the client's money and maybe a year of time, and burned that patient's chance of immunotherapy.

If you have a cat with bad stomatitis, you're an dingus if you don't at least offer referral. Yeah I feel comfortable performing full mouth extractions. But given the relatively high odds of FME not resolving the issue fully, and knowing that I'm more likely to leave small amounts of tooth tissue than a dentist (and we would have to wonder if that happened if kitty doesn't do well), nevermind that a dentist will be able to do it better and faster, I at least have to offer.

Especially if you do not have 24 hr staffing, including a doctor, there are just certain things that you need to at least offer referral.

I do everything for my own pets including emergency surgery if it's something that I can handle, be it foreign body surgery, PU, amputation, placing and managing E-tubes, etc... My pets are collectively as challenging as they come. But the reason why my ancient cat is alive and still kicking comfortably is thanks to the multiple internists, cardiologists, radiologists, criticalists, and dermatologists who have been involved in the meticulous care she requires. My clients at least deserve to be given the options for this level of care. If they don't elect it, that's fine. I'll do whatever is indicated to the best of my abilities. But, there gets to be a point at which it would just be more efficient and sometimes even less costly for the client to just take the referral.

Since we're playing the game of making assumptions, I'll say that usually the "I keep all the complex cases and try never to refer because I'm awesome" hospitals are the dated malpractice-worthy hospitals with hospital managers who have no clue what modern standard of care is. If you don't want people to make that assumption about your hospital (which is kind of legit based on your posts), you should stop doing that to others. Also, no matter how experienced you are, and no matter how much you think you know how doctors think, you haven't a clue. I have a hard and fast rule for what I will tolerate as a doctor. I will not stay at a hospital where non-DVMs have any say in medical decision making. I will also not work where I directly report to a PM. I will only report to a DVM owner or medical director. Perhaps it's your poking your head in where it doesn't belong that strained your relationship with previous DVMs at your practice. I would not tolerate your patronizing attitudes as a DVM in a practice. There are plenty of other jobs out there, where I wouldn't have to deal with such bull****.

I've ran out of fingers counting the number of times I've had someone try to stop me from referring an allergy dog to a dermatologist and instead just have them "do the blood test."

Both vets and office managers.

I tell them what the dermatologist at school told us: "if you get sent to the board for an allergy case and never offered referral for skin testing and immunotherapy, don't ask me to help you, especially if you attempt the bull**** blood test that's just as expensive and has a **** chance of actually working." Basically, it is against standard of care to not refer in so many instances and will land you in trouble with the board if you don't offer. This is what office manager's can't seem to comprehend, as vets we HAVE to offer referral and I WANT to, who wouldn't want to be informed of the very best possible care for their pet?

I was helping at a clinic where the office manager told me I'm not allowed to offer referral to the owner of a 10yo great dane with a GDV that was having active arrhythmias on auscultation. I was to offer in house care only. In a clinic who had two doctors neither of which have cut one of these and minimal staff. I told her to piss off and offered that client referral, they elected euth which was probably for the best, but **** if any office manager is going to tell me how to use my license.
 
I've ran out of fingers counting the number of times I've had someone try to stop me from referring an allergy dog to a dermatologist and instead just have them "do the blood test."

Both vets and office managers.

I once had a PM interview me over the phone. And she said similar things as the poster above, that in the past they had high turnover because they had lazy entitled doctors who didn't believe in their clinic philosophy of doing everything in house, and so she was screening for associates for whom that wouldn't be an issue. Example being ol doc owner is an excellent surgeon including orthopedics, so surgeries he can handle should not be referred...

She then said "It's important that everyone practice the same medicine." So then, I said "yeah cool I do agree that all the doctors need to be on a united front about wellness recommendations in the practice. But it sounds like this has been an issue in the past, can you give me examples?" Then I was told that all itchy dogs immediately get an allergy blood test, and based on the results are given a list of foods they can buy as well has allergy drops. That was best medicine, and they've had issues with doctors who resisted this approach, and that's not okay.

Yeah... I don't think I can buy into that philosophy. And I won't even argue with this level of incompetent indoctrination. The irony is, what I do will make he patient a lot more comfortable more reliably, AND make more money for the hospital. It's just strange when a whole hospital just doesn't know any better, and can't learn anything from the long trail of DVMs that didn't work out. One or two vets don't work out over 10 yrs, maybe it was them. But with more than that... look in the mirror...
 
Also, I work close enough to an excellent tertiary referral hospital that it is absolutely in the patient's best interest to go straight there if GDV is a concern. If the dog so much as steps foot in my clinic without the owner expecting a euthanasia, we didn't do a good job triaging over the phone. My front desk is not allowed to diagnose or give medical advice, but I've beaten into them key words to listen to, in order to get a doctor on the phone. Techs are also trained to spot possible GDV so that a doctor is alerted to drop everything and quickly assess so they can give owners options. That if it's a possible GDV, then staying here is a death sentence. This is the prognosis and cost of treatment if it is. Do you want to book it to the ER while I warn them you're on the way. Best case scenario it's not and maybe the ER wasn't needed, but we don't have time to be dickingn around to find out otherwise. In the time it takes to gurney the dog in and get and IVC placed, the dog would arrive at the ER. There's really no sense in my case to even "stabilize" the patient.

If anyone was not ok with that, I would not stay. Esp because all the doctors agree this is best for the patient.
 
Also, I work close enough to an excellent tertiary referral hospital that it is absolutely in the patient's best interest to go straight there if GDV is a concern. If the dog so much as steps foot in my clinic without the owner expecting a euthanasia, we didn't do a good job triaging over the phone. My front desk is not allowed to diagnose or give medical advice, but I've beaten into them key words to listen to, in order to get a doctor on the phone. Techs are also trained to spot possible GDV so that a doctor is alerted to drop everything and quickly assess so they can give owners options. That if it's a possible GDV, then staying here is a death sentence. This is the prognosis and cost of treatment if it is. Do you want to book it to the ER while I warn them you're on the way. Best case scenario it's not and maybe the ER wasn't needed, but we don't have time to be dickingn around to find out otherwise. In the time it takes to gurney the dog in and get and IVC placed, the dog would arrive at the ER. There's really no sense in my case to even "stabilize" the patient.

If anyone was not ok with that, I would not stay. Esp because all the doctors agree this is best for the patient.

The one thing that does irk me a bit sometimes when I do get a true emergency case in and I've decided dicking around to even attempt to stabilize is costing the patient time and possibly their life, I'll call up the ER to give a head's up the patient is coming and I get judged for "not doing anything."

Sometimes you really can't win in this field. You'll be judged if you do something, if you don't do something, for not keeping the patient at your poorly staffed clinic, etc. No matter what you decide, it will be "wrong" in someone's mind.
 
The one thing that does irk me a bit sometimes when I do get a true emergency case in and I've decided dicking around to even attempt to stabilize is costing the patient time and possibly their life, I'll call up the ER to give a head's up the patient is coming and I get judged for "not doing anything."

Sometimes you really can't win in this field. You'll be judged if you do something, if you don't do something, for not keeping the patient at your poorly staffed clinic, etc. No matter what you decide, it will be "wrong" in someone's mind.

Huh... I've never had that experience (other than on random threads on sdn). Typically if anything they're glad we haven't ****ed up a catheter leg, as they usually don't trust keeping patients in hospital with IVC placed elsewhere.
 
Top