Difference between MD and DO

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Yes, those DOs had a bit of a battle, but becoming a surgeon is usually a big battle.

I'm sorry, but the fact that you liken how hard surgical training in general is, to the legitimate disadvantages that DO applicants have in some subspecialties, just makes it obvious that your opinion is uninformed. You're basically dismissing the fact that some training opportunities may be truly closed to DOs by saying "Oh well, being a doctor is supposed to be hard!!" It's not the same, but an uninformed pre-med could read what you're saying and believe it, even though your experience (with regard to training as a physician) is the same as theirs.
 
I'm sorry, but the fact that you liken how hard surgical training in general is, to the legitimate disadvantages that DO applicants have in some subspecialties, just makes it obvious that your opinion is uninformed. You're basically dismissing the fact that some training opportunities may be truly closed to DOs by saying "Oh well, being a doctor is supposed to be hard!!" It's not the same, but an uninformed pre-med could read what you're saying and believe it, even though your experience (with regard to training as a physician) is the same as theirs.


I would say "How so?" but then it bypasses that bigger reality---that you have totally misinterpreted what I wrote and/or have perverted it in a way different from it's context and intent. But so goes online discussions. . . .
 
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The reality is that nearly all applicants to all residency programs will make competent caring specialists. Programs, with rare exceptions, don't need to select out "bad" applicants from "good" applicants. This isn't med school admissions.

The question then becomes, if you want to do something competitive, how to maximize your chances. Which degree you hold is, and in all likelihood will continue to be, one of those factors.


It may be. It may not be. It depends. What is the real problem here anyway? Fear of more competition from DOs? Well, by your beliefs, you have the advantage anyway, so why worry about it?
 
So, how reliable is this response to the posted article?


Lisa ColeMar 21. 2015 8:02pm

In Response to this:


http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20150320/NEWS/150329998


[To Whom It May Concern:


While appreciating the coverage of this important day in the lives of future physicians, we, the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine, must take this opportunity to correct an often misconstrued statistic concerning the match rate of osteopathic (D.O.) physicians.


Osteopathic physicians have more than one opportunity to match, and in fact, have historically achieved 99% GME placement rates, when all GME placement opportunities have concluded at the end of a yearly cycle. In addition to the NRMP match, to which Mr. Robeznieks refers, osteopathic physicians have opportunities to match in the AOA (American Osteopathic Association) match, and again, when all is said and done, have historically placed in graduate medical residencies in the 99 percent range. For example, in the 2014 cycle, 99.4 percent of residency-seeking DOs placed into graduate medical education/residency programs.


With 25 percent of freshman medical students now being osteopathic students, it is important to accurately reflect the stellar placement record of doctors of osteopathic medicine.

Respectfully submitted,


Lisa M. Cole

VP Communications and Marketing

American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine]
 
I would say "How so?" but then it bypasses that bigger reality---that you have totally misinterpreted what I wrote and/or have perverted it in a way different from it's context and intent. But so goes online discussions. . . .

Please tell me exactly how I misinterpreted what I quoted above. Sure, they had a bit of a battle as DOs- you have no idea. I don't even have a full idea, but as an actual physician and now someone who selects and trains residents, I have a better idea than you. Which is why I think the second half of that statement was inappropriate and misleading. Especially in a forum whose target audience is premedical students who don't know enough to know that you have zero experience with the path to a surgical subspecialty. I can hear the pre-meds now: "Somebody on SDN knows DOs who are CT surgeons! They had to struggle but medicine is SUPPOSED to be a struggle! I'll be fine!"
 
Please tell me exactly how I misinterpreted what I quoted above. Sure, they had a bit of a battle as DOs- you have no idea. I don't even have a full idea, but as an actual physician and now someone who selects and trains residents, I have a better idea than you. Which is why I think the second half of that statement was inappropriate and misleading. Especially in a forum whose target audience is premedical students who don't know enough to know that you have zero experience with the path to a surgical subspecialty. I can hear the pre-meds now: "Somebody on SDN knows DOs who are CT surgeons! They had to struggle but medicine is SUPPOSED to be a struggle! I'll be fine!"


Don't be an as. I have worked with CT surgeons for more years that you have probably been a physician. sigh. Remember the old adage re: never ASSume. Please.
 
Also, it's great when people can discuss things without the abrasive attitudes. Without civility, it's just not worth it.

Au Revoir.
 
(1) I'm not worried aboutnit, because I have a residency.

(2) In my field, there is no competition from DOs because they simply don't match to my allo specialty.

(3) I am pointing this out because it is something to consider when applying to schools. Many students have an idea of the specialty they are interested in before they apply (as they should, with this silly requirement to "shadow"). They need to know that this is potentially a very real obstacle they could run into. Why would you want people to have less information?


OK. I have no problem with that. It still, however, isn't the whole story. Nothing on this path at any point has a pure and perfect formula for success. The ride is bumpy. For some it may be bumpier than others, but then again, life seems like that also...until we really "get" that none of us is getting out it alive. 😉
 
"I know a DO neurosurgeon so there is no difference between the degrees" is the new "racism is a thing of the past in america because we have a black president"
 
OK. I have no problem with that. It still, however, isn't the whole story. Nothing on this path at any point has a pure and perfect formula for success. The ride is bumpy. For some it may be bumpier than others, but then again, life seems like that also...until we really "get" that none of us is getting out it alive. 😉
Makes sense. optimistic platitudes -> no problem. The likelihood of an "average" US MD getting a general surgery spot somewhere? very high. Average DO? low. Average US MD getting a sub-specialty surgery spot? low. Average DO? Next-to-impossible. It really doesn't need to be analyzed beyond that. If you aren't angling for surgery or derm, then DO is completely fine. If you are, then all the optimistic underdog rhetoric won't help.
 
Don't be an as. I have worked with CT surgeons for more years that you have probably been a physician. sigh. Remember the old adage re: never ASSume. Please.

I know that you have worked with CT surgeons. That doesn't change the fact that your firsthand experience of the training is zero. You could have thirty years of nursing experience, it wouldn't change that. I think it's great that this is an open forum for people to learn about medical training, but you really need to stay in your lane. I don't go around making declarations outside my expertise on the Anesthesia, Peds, or Surgery forums- despite having opinions, I lack the compulsive need to share all of them at all times.

I'm clearly not going to change your mind, so keep on thinking it's okay to tell pre-meds, who come here looking for useful advice, incorrect information. And I'll keep coming along and pointing out where you are wrong, from my experience actually doing what they hope to do (med school, matching, residency, practice). Even if that experience is less than the time you've spent being near what they hope to do.

The path to certain specialties/locations is harder for DOs than MDs. It is asinine to act like pre-meds should blindly accept that because medical training (and life in general) is a tough battle. They deserve to know going in, that certain paths have certain limitations.

(Edit- changed an 'and' to 'than'. Kinda the whole point.)
 
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You should probably specify "MD ______". There are DO residencies for all these specialties, just not many.

I wonder if this merger will really be as beneficial to the DO community as some have claimed. When the MD applicants start flooding their match, I suspect there may be some hard feelings.
I wonder the same thing. I bet more MDs infiltrate DO residencies than the other way around....
 
I know that you have worked with CT surgeons. That doesn't change the fact that your firsthand experience of the training is zero. You could have thirty years of nursing experience, it wouldn't change that. I think it's great that this is an open forum for people to learn about medical training, but you really need to stay in your lane. I don't go around making declarations outside my expertise on the Anesthesia, Peds, or Surgery forums- despite having opinions, I lack the compulsive need to share all of them at all times.

I'm clearly not going to change your mind, so keep on thinking it's okay to tell pre-meds, who come here looking for useful advice, incorrect information. And I'll keep coming along and pointing out where you are wrong, from my experience actually doing what they hope to do (med school, matching, residency, practice). Even if that experience is less than the time you've spent being near what they hope to do.

The path to certain specialties/locations is harder for DOs and MDs. It is asinine to act like pre-meds should blindly accept that because medical training (and life in general) is a tough battle. They deserve to know going in, that certain paths have certain limitations.

"No! I am a pluripotent stem cell - small pure and beautiful.
All differentiation pathways are open to me.
The medical school DNA methylation patterns are infinite.
M.D. D.O. M.B.B.S. - they are all just signalling proteins, to show my potential!
If I fail, I will migrate into a P.I.'s (fume) hood, so he can reverse engineer me into a CT surgeon. I mean -- cardiac muscle cell."

Said every cell that was ever naive to life.
 
I know that you have worked with CT surgeons. That doesn't change the fact that your firsthand experience of the training is zero. You could have thirty years of nursing experience, it wouldn't change that. I think it's great that this is an open forum for people to learn about medical training, but you really need to stay in your lane. I don't go around making declarations outside my expertise on the Anesthesia, Peds, or Surgery forums- despite having opinions, I lack the compulsive need to share all of them at all times.

I'm clearly not going to change your mind, so keep on thinking it's okay to tell pre-meds, who come here looking for useful advice, incorrect information. And I'll keep coming along and pointing out where you are wrong, from my experience actually doing what they hope to do (med school, matching, residency, practice). Even if that experience is less than the time you've spent being near what they hope to do.

The path to certain specialties/locations is harder for DOs and MDs. It is asinine to act like pre-meds should blindly accept that because medical training is a tough battle. They deserve to know going in, that certain paths have certain limitations.

Took the words right out of my mouth.
images
 
Don't be an as. I have worked with CT surgeons for more years that you have probably been a physician. sigh. Remember the old adage re: never ASSume. Please.

I love how you tell him not to assume anything, right after you assume you have spent more time with CT surgeons than 22031 has been a physician.
 
OP, if given the choice between MD and DO, assuming you don't strongly align with the ideology of osteopathic medicine, go MD.

There are many great DOs and you could very well match somewhere you want from a DO school, however, I think the nature of the arguments on this thread, if nothing else, gives credence to the supposition that going DO could be more of an uphill battle for competitive specialties than it would be as a MD.

Whether well-founded or not (not arguing either way here), some still do attempt to draw distinction between the quality of the two.
 
MD = Lexus

DO = Toyota
 
What then is the % of MD residency-fill compared %-DO residency fill for the "top" specialties? I mean the DO people that made it into residencies for CT Surgery did so QUITE some time ago. You figure that it would have been tougher back then
I know that you have worked with CT surgeons. That doesn't change the fact that your firsthand experience of the training is zero. You could have thirty years of nursing experience, it wouldn't change that. I think it's great that this is an open forum for people to learn about medical training, but you really need to stay in your lane. I don't go around making declarations outside my expertise on the Anesthesia, Peds, or Surgery forums- despite having opinions, I lack the compulsive need to share all of them at all times.

I'm clearly not going to change your mind, so keep on thinking it's okay to tell pre-meds, who come here looking for useful advice, incorrect information. And I'll keep coming along and pointing out where you are wrong, from my experience actually doing what they hope to do (med school, matching, residency, practice). Even if that experience is less than the time you've spent being near what they hope to do.

The path to certain specialties/locations is harder for DOs than MDs. It is asinine to act like pre-meds should blindly accept that because medical training (and life in general) is a tough battle. They deserve to know going in, that certain paths have certain limitations.

(Edit- changed an 'and' to 'than'. Kinda the whole point.)


You can say what you want. You can think what you want. People do go into competitive specialities w/ DO. This is clear when you review the data. Nothing of any real effort and worth is easy,period. That's the story. What is it that you want? How much do you want it? Discouraging people is of no real value either. It has and can be done. That's all that the motivated person really needs to keep in mind.

Platitudes that 'there are no guarantees in life'? Really? That's platitudes? No. That's just reality. There will be things in life, which you will want, dear poster, and you will not get. And then there are things you will think you want and get, and you will be chagrin that you have received them.

People want divorce-proof marriages, defect-proof children, tragedy-proof lives, non-dysfunctional families and friendships. I truly wish I could promise you all of these things, but I can't. I can't promise them to anyone. The relativity becomes more pronounced as life progresses. BE thankful and grateful for what you do, mostly for others. Life is a spit in the wind, and then it's done. So yes. Make the most of what you can and find out what truly matters most. That really is the whole point. No promises. Just try to do the best you can--and let it be for the benefit of not only yourself but others. That's all. That's it.
 
OP, if given the choice between MD and DO, assuming you don't strongly align with the ideology of osteopathic medicine, go MD.

There are many great DOs and you could very well match somewhere you want from a DO school, however, I think the nature of the arguments on this thread, if nothing else, gives credence to the supposition that going DO could be more of an uphill battle for competitive specialties than it would be as a MD.

Whether well-founded or not (not arguing either way here), some still do attempt to draw distinction between the quality of the two.


It's about doing what works for the individual. If a person chooses a DO school over MD school, it doesn't mean he or she was wrong or mistaken. It hopefully means that they choose what was best for them.

It's about time people realize the MD vs. DO issue is pretty much dead in the water. Move on with life and do what works best for you. That will mean different things to different people. In the end, however, the "degree-brand" will not matter.
 
I love how you tell him not to assume anything, right after you assume you have spent more time with CT surgeons than 22031 has been a physician.


I am willing to take that bet to the bank.
 
I have nothing really to add here beyond what was already mentioned. In terms of the "end game," there is no real difference. Once you're in practice, MDs and DOs are equivalent. End of story. The emphasis on "holistic healing" that DOs put on is a bit of a farce. It implicitly implies that MD programs don't do the same, which is simply untrue (at least in my experience). The training pathway itself sans OMM will be effectively identical.

The key point, however, is that it will impact your ability to get a residency, particularly in competitive fields and at competitive institutions. All things being equal (and they never are), most MD programs will choose an MD graduate over a DO graduate every day of the week and Sunday. Does this mean that DOs are inherently inferior? Of course not. But, as has been mentioned, there is a view of DOs as simply "less achieving" students given the fact that admissions requirements are generally lower compared to MD programs. This "stigma" will remain with you for life. I imagine that most people - particularly younger, less prestige-flaunting folks - don't care all that much. However, some do. My specialty advisor and a guy whose opinion I very much trust on just about everything is not a fan of DOs in the slightest. He sees them as inferior students and would prefer to have MDs over DOs in just about every situation. This is just one guy, of course, but it provides a look at how some people view the two pathways. I'm sure he's not the only one out there who shares this view.

It'd be nice if there was a nice kumbayah circle where we all viewed everyone as equal, but that simply isn't the case. Can you get into a competitive program in a competitive specialty as a DO? Sure. Is it likely? Nope. Is it more difficult than if you were an MD graduate? Generally, yes. Why is that? Reasons. Unless you have significant reasons to choose otherwise, I would go to an MD school before a DO school if given the opportunity. It simply opens doors. People can choose to accept this or not, but it seems to generally be the case in my limited experience.
 
I mean, now that MD schools have adapted the DO "holistic view," the only differences I see are OMT, the letters after your name, and residency opportunities.
Try telling that to the doctors at my local HMO!

I'm pretty sure MD schools always viewed a person more than an organ. I am not a DO student but perhaps DO stress it more or something.

Also - i think it's highly unfair to pass judgement based on a few experiences. I'm sure you can find some computer screen staring DO's.

At OP: DO students tend to score lower on step 1 - but I'm guessing this is due to self selecting factors. Students with higher GPA and MCAT TEND to go to MD schools. I'm pretty sure if I went to DO school - my scores probably wouldn't change much. However - as of right now - DOs are at a disadvantage for residency.
 
I have nothing really to add here beyond what was already mentioned. In terms of the "end game," there is no real difference. Once you're in practice, MDs and DOs are equivalent. End of story. The emphasis on "holistic healing" that DOs put on is a bit of a farce. It implicitly implies that MD programs don't do the same, which is simply untrue (at least in my experience). The training pathway itself sans OMM will be effectively identical.

The key point, however, is that it will impact your ability to get a residency, particularly in competitive fields and at competitive institutions. All things being equal (and they never are), most MD programs will choose an MD graduate over a DO graduate every day of the week and Sunday. Does this mean that DOs are inherently inferior? Of course not. But, as has been mentioned, there is a view of DOs as simply "less achieving" students given the fact that admissions requirements are generally lower compared to MD programs. This "stigma" will remain with you for life. I imagine that most people - particularly younger, less prestige-flaunting folks - don't care all that much. However, some do. My specialty advisor and a guy whose opinion I very much trust on just about everything is not a fan of DOs in the slightest. He sees them as inferior students and would prefer to have MDs over DOs in just about every situation. This is just one guy, of course, but it provides a look at how some people view the two pathways. I'm sure he's not the only one out there who shares this view.

It'd be nice if there was a nice kumbayah circle where we all viewed everyone as equal, but that simply isn't the case. Can you get into a competitive program in a competitive specialty as a DO? Sure. Is it likely? Nope. Is it more difficult than if you were an MD graduate? Generally, yes. Why is that? Reasons. Unless you have significant reasons to choose otherwise, I would go to an MD school before a DO school if given the opportunity. It simply opens doors. People can choose to accept this or not, but it seems to generally be the case in my limited experience.
This is what I was trying to say. Thanks for articulating it better than I could.
 
The reality is that nearly all applicants to all residency programs will make competent caring specialists. Programs, with rare exceptions, don't need to select out "bad" applicants from "good" applicants. This isn't med school admissions.

The question then becomes, if you want to do something competitive, how to maximize your chances. Which degree you hold is, and in all likelihood will continue to be, one of those factors.

We will see how big of a factor it will be post merger comparable to other qualifications (grades, board scores, research etc). It clearly still is a factor
I have nothing really to add here beyond what was already mentioned. In terms of the "end game," there is no real difference. Once you're in practice, MDs and DOs are equivalent. End of story. The emphasis on "holistic healing" that DOs put on is a bit of a farce. It implicitly implies that MD programs don't do the same, which is simply untrue (at least in my experience). The training pathway itself sans OMM will be effectively identical.

The key point, however, is that it will impact your ability to get a residency, particularly in competitive fields and at competitive institutions. All things being equal (and they never are), most MD programs will choose an MD graduate over a DO graduate every day of the week and Sunday. Does this mean that DOs are inherently inferior? Of course not. But, as has been mentioned, there is a view of DOs as simply "less achieving" students given the fact that admissions requirements are generally lower compared to MD programs. This "stigma" will remain with you for life. I imagine that most people - particularly younger, less prestige-flaunting folks - don't care all that much. However, some do. My specialty advisor and a guy whose opinion I very much trust on just about everything is not a fan of DOs in the slightest. He sees them as inferior students and would prefer to have MDs over DOs in just about every situation. This is just one guy, of course, but it provides a look at how some people view the two pathways. I'm sure he's not the only one out there who shares this view.

It'd be nice if there was a nice kumbayah circle where we all viewed everyone as equal, but that simply isn't the case. Can you get into a competitive program in a competitive specialty as a DO? Sure. Is it likely? Nope. Is it more difficult than if you were an MD graduate? Generally, yes. Why is that? Reasons. Unless you have significant reasons to choose otherwise, I would go to an MD school before a DO school if given the opportunity. It simply opens doors. People can choose to accept this or not, but it seems to generally be the case in my limited experience.

Is it likely for anyone to get a super competitive residency?

I get it that its less likely as a DO but they are competitive for a reason.

And for clarification you would go to US MD over DO you wouldn't go to a foreign MD (which are also MD schools)

But just putting it out there here are some places my school has matched into recently

NYU
U Pitt
Cleveland clinic
John Hopkins
Vanderbilt
Northwestern
Mount Sinai

(Tons of other great places)

We matched into

Nuero surgery
Dermatology
Orthopedic surgery
Vascular surgery
Opthamology
Urological survey
Plastics/ent

We also have spots for lots of other stuff like cardiology/derm and what not.

I get it US MD is advantageous over DO but EVERY speciality is possible as a DO and you can go to competitive places (but stuff like top tier Internal med or acgme derm/ neuro serg not possible) acgme opthomology is possible (look at Cornell's residents).

I agree it impacts your ability to get a residency but that's a complicated picture and is getting to be less so.
 
That's silly.

I remember my first day of medical school, our Dean got up on the stage and told us, "After four years spent proving yourself to be a well-rounded person, doing volunteer and community service activities, holding leadership positions, and excelling in a range of courses, I am here to tell you that those days are over. From here on out, you are expected to see only disease, and never people."

And she was right! Each block we studied a discrete organ system and never looked at how it interacted with other systems. Most importantly, we were absolutely prohibited from examining how patients' social situation, psychological makeup, and family environment interacted with their health.

I remember I once made the mistake of asking about strategies to improve medication compliance in patients with mental health issues. I had to meet with a board comprised on our Dean of students, an academic counselor, and several high-ranking faculty. They made it clear that my behavior was completely inappropriate, and did not uphold the standards of MD education, who have certainly never acted as trusted family advisors, following their patients over long periods of time and attending not only to physical health needs but also less obvious psychosocial problems. Whereas DOs have been rural family physicians, often taking barter as a form of payment in less-affluent areas, MDs have been strictly limited to sub-sub-specialty practices in for-profit facilities. After hearing all that, you better believe I never made that mistake again!

The rest of medical school involved mainly scientific courses. I have heard that DO schools learn these things called, "family history" and "social history," but honestly I'm not entirely sure what that entails.

There is a reason that every US Surgeon General since the beginning of our country has been a DO. And the DOs led the charge against smoking as a public health menace. And DOs provided the bulk of the medical support for the ACA, creation of Medicare/Medicaid, and CHIP programs in multiple states. There are certainly no rural-track MD programs, and nearly every FP residency in the United States is a DO-only program. MDs are "disease-focused" and proud of it. Even today, I will often review xrays, and then perform my physical exam wearing a blindfold and earplugs, lest I inadvertently find something out about the patient that could alter my pre-determined treatment plan.

In summary: DOs and MDs are the same in every way. Except DOs are all nicer people who care about patients, whereas MDs are impatient, don't give a crap about actual people, lack basic human emotion, and sometimes sacrifice orphan babies to the dark lord C'thulu. But other than that, they're exactly the same.

Ha this was funny! I agree its more about the person and not the degree.


The real difference I see is the type of person going to a DO school. MD schools tend to attract prestige obssesed and more likely socially awkward people (not all but we all know those 4.0 robots). This is more of a function of people with extremely high grades.

Not to mention some MD schools give a course called "doctoring". This is given in OPP class
 
I have no problem with your degree, and it was really not necessary to point out that some DO students match to quality MD programs.

However, it's not getting to be less complicated. You think it will be less complicated in the future. However, that has yet to occur. If it does, I'll be the first to cheer it. In the interim, I would suggest pre-meds oriented towards more competitive surgical subspecialties base their decisions on how things currently stand, rather than how they might change in the future.

Im not saying to go to DO over MD. I'm pointing out that DOs aren't that limited. Places that used to never take DOs are now
 
Ha this was funny! I agree its more about the person and not the degree.


The real difference I see is the type of person going to a DO school. MD schools tend to attract prestige oppressed and more likely socially awkward people (not all but we all know those 4.0 robots). This is more of a function of people with extremely high grades.

Not to mention some MD schools give a course called "doctoring". This is given in OPP class
Wow, so not the case. I don't even know where to start with this. Having good grades in college doesn't mean you are socially awkward.

The real difference is people who can go MD will do it 99% of the time. Those who can't go MD go DO. Any other cockamamie difference you see is a delusion.
 
We will see how big of a factor it will be post merger comparable to other qualifications (grades, board scores, research etc). It clearly still is a factor


Is it likely for anyone to get a super competitive residency?

I get it that its less likely as a DO but they are competitive for a reason.

And for clarification you would go to US MD over DO you wouldn't go to a foreign MD (which are also MD schools)

But just putting it out there here are some places my school has matched into recently

NYU
U Pitt
Cleveland clinic
John Hopkins
Vanderbilt
Northwestern
Mount Sinai

(Tons of other great places)

We matched into

Nuero surgery
Dermatology
Orthopedic surgery
Vascular surgery
Opthamology
Urological survey
Plastics/ent

We also have spots for lots of other stuff like cardiology/derm and what not.

I get it US MD is advantageous over DO but EVERY speciality is possible as a DO and you can go to competitive places (but stuff like top tier Internal med or acgme derm/ neuro serg not possible) acgme opthomology is possible (look at Cornell's residents).

I agree it impacts your ability to get a residency but that's a complicated picture and is getting to be less so.

Without knowing more about the specialties involved at each institution, who knows whether those are good programs or not. For example, there are several former and current psych residents at Vandy that are DOs. Ditto with Northwestern.

Look, no one is saying that as a DO you are "doomed" to a life of primary care. The reality though is that if you have any interest in competitive specialties and want to end up at the highest quality training program, attending a DO program given the choice of an MD program is unlikely to serve you well. It's one thing if you have no choice - you'll simply have to make the best of what you have. As mentioned above, though, that is rarely the case that someone chooses to go the DO route while having an option to go the MD route. If I give a pre-medical student the opportunity to go to a mid-tier MD school and a mid-tier DO school, I'll bet my life savings that they pick the MD school every time. I find that many DO folks "love" the "DO philosophy" and "how great OMM is" and all those other praises, but I would be interested to know how many of those people actually had the option to choose an MD path and, of those that didn't, whether they would make the same decision given the option of an MD path. My guess is that in both cases the numbers are extremely small.

This isn't a dig on DO programs or DOs generally - it's just reality.
 
Wow, so not the case. I don't even know where to start with this. Having good grades in college doesn't mean you are socially awkward.

The real difference is people who can go MD will do it 99% of the time. Those who can't go MD go DO. Any other cockamamie difference you see is a delusion.

Not in every case but I defintetly see it. I have some very good friends who are going to great MD schools. Extremely smart and nice. Great people. Painfully socially awkward. Some of my other ultra smart friends aren't like this. Its a generalization and not universaly true. Lots of time these people are immigrants and aren't americanized. However through my experiences this is something I have observed with people who have high grades. I also see they are more likely to be gunners. NOT always true I get that. It isn't a majority. Its just my observations. Nothing inherent in either degree. My parent is an MD and isn't socially awkward (for the most part).
 
Not in every case but I defintetly see it. I have some very good friends who are going to great MD schools. Extremely smart and nice. Great people. Painfully socially awkward. Some of my other ultra smart friends aren't like this. Its a generalization and not universaly true. Lots of time these people are immigrants and aren't americanized. However through my experiences this is something I have observed with people who have high grades. I also see they are more likely to be gunners. NOT always true I get that. It isn't a majority. Its just my observations. Nothing inherent in either degree. My parent is an MD and isn't socially awkward (for the most part).
Ok, and I have some friends who are socially awkward and go to DO schools....
 
Without knowing more about the specialties involved at each institution, who knows whether those are good programs or not. For example, there are several former and current psych residents at Vandy that are DOs. Ditto with Northwestern.

Look, no one is saying that as a DO you are "doomed" to a life of primary care. The reality though is that if you have any interest in competitive specialties and want to end up at the highest quality training program, attending a DO program given the choice of an MD program is unlikely to serve you well. It's one thing if you have no choice - you'll simply have to make the best of what you have. As mentioned above, though, that is rarely the case that someone chooses to go the DO route while having an option to go the MD route. If I give a pre-medical student the opportunity to go to a mid-tier MD school and a mid-tier DO school, I'll bet my life savings that they pick the MD school every time. I find that many DO folks "love" the "DO philosophy" and "how great OMM is" and all those other praises, but I would be interested to know how many of those people actually had the option to choose an MD path and, of those that didn't, whether they would make the same decision given the option of an MD path. My guess is that in both cases the numbers are extremely small.

This isn't a dig on DO programs or DOs generally - it's just reality.

I agree almost everyone will choose US MD over DO. However I know people who went DO over MD (parents were DOs). Some people might just like a particular school better or a location. But yes in general people will pick MD over DO. Maybe you won't get into the highest quality training program but you don't need to go to Harvard to get good medical training
 
Ok, and I have some friends who are socially awkward and go to DO schools....

Im not saying that doesn't exist. I'm saying people with higher grades are more likely to be socially awkward. Its my observation. They are more likely to be more focused on school (hence why they have high grades) and have less outside interests. DO students still have very high grades and this correlation still exists in my opinion at DO schools
 
I agree almost everyone will choose US MD over DO. However I know people who went DO over MD (parents were DOs). Some people might just like a particular school better or a location. But yes in general people will pick MD over DO. Maybe you won't get into the highest quality training program but you don't need to go to Harvard to get good medical training

Again, these people are the huge exception rather than the rule. And no one said you have to go to Harvard to be a good physician. That's not what we're talking about. However, for highly competitive fields, it becomes difficult (a problem that going to Harvard will not itself solve). If you're interested in academia, then your pedigree absolutely does matter.
 
Again, these people are the huge exception rather than the rule. And no one said you have to go to Harvard to be a good physician. That's not what we're talking about. However, for highly competitive fields, it becomes difficult (a problem that going to Harvard will not itself solve). If you're interested in academia, then your pedigree absolutely does matter.

Yes I agree they are the exception. Im not saying pedigree doesn't matter. I understand there are limits but there is no need to overstate them.
 
I apologize to all for hitting a nerve.


I'm pretty sure MD schools always viewed a person more than an organ. I am not a DO student but perhaps DO stress it more or something.

Also - i think it's highly unfair to pass judgement based on a few experiences. I'm sure you can find some computer screen staring DO's.

At OP: DO students tend to score lower on step 1 - but I'm guessing this is due to self selecting factors. Students with higher GPA and MCAT TEND to go to MD schools. I'm pretty sure if I went to DO school - my scores probably wouldn't change much. However - as of right now - DOs are at a disadvantage for residency.
 
This is a good point; allo standards are higher then needed to ID people who have the cognitive ability and work ethic to function as physicians.

Part of the misunderstanding comes from segregation that starts early.

Many of the undgergrads that MDs attend - don't send a lot of students to DO schools. Some colleges (at least in my day) actually discourage use of the "AACOMAS".

Many MDs trained at high powered places simply don't interact with DOs very often. These are the MDs that tend to go onto positions of authority, near the centers of power, so ...
 
This is a good point; allo standards are higher then needed to ID people who have the cognitive ability and work ethic to function as physicians.

Part of the misunderstanding comes from segregation that starts early.

Many of the undgergrads that MDs attend - don't send a lot of students to DO schools. Some colleges (at least in my day) actually discourage use of the "AACOMAS".

Many MDs trained at high powered places simply don't interact with DOs very often. These are the MDs that tend to go onto positions of authority, near the centers of power, so ...



Wait. What about the DO applicants that in fact have the high sGPA, high MCAT, and other great components to their application?
 
Wait. What about the DO applicants that in fact have the high sGPA, high MCAT, and other great components to their application?

Let me put it this way:

Back in the day, after I took the MCAT, the paper AACOMAS came in the mail two months later. I asked my friend, heh what is this?

He stated I haven't even read my mail, have to finish this AMCAS and work on my MSTP application.

These two physicians are now in mid career, along with a whole bunch of others with similar experiences.

PS: FWIW, I am DO congratulater, not hater.
 
As previously mentioned, the main difference is the OMM class. I am planning on reading up on it, but let me tell you that I've seen DOs for the past few years as PCPs and I've never seen one perform it even when I asked. Honestly, I would rather have a DO play chiropractor than a chiropractor.

I've seen some MDs that were very observant to patients and DOs who were jokes. I've had bad MDs and bad DOs. Good MDs and good DOs. When I go in tomorrow to get blood tests done, that is with a DO who while very good spends zero time with patients. The man won't even sit down. I wonder if he will even read the form he is signing.

The DO schools as others have mentioned tend to be forgiving which is in many ways a good thing. Everyone deserves a second chance and I don't mind if my doctor made a serious mistake at some point provided they did what they needed to do to repair it.. The schools also tend to be more focused on primary care fields and less on things like research, which is great for some people. I'm sure Goro would be better able to answer the percentages as to what amount of DOs match to primary care, but I know it is higher than MD.

There is a stigma with the DO schools. While I cannot speak to OMM as I have no knowledge about it (personal or academic), the idea that DOs are inferior is unfair and, in many ways, the reputation is undeserved. However, it is there. My family had some pretty bad experiences with DOs in person and through me, so will not see them.

One difference really is the locations you can practice in assuming you want to do international research or move. I have a friend who posted this absolutely beautiful photo, I think French Rivera or something, and she said she wanted to move there. Then she found the DO was not going to be acceptable there. I was lucky that the one country I want to move to would have accepted either, although the one country I want to do research in again (different country) would have only accepted an MD.

I think for the average person who wants to go into primary care (and obgyn is a form of that), whether the degree is MD or DO, isn't going to matter terribly much provided you remain in the US.
 
It sounds like you see way too many doctors.

Let's see... I see an internist for my normal exams, an obgyn (who is also an endo) who does my other yearly exam plus writes for my testosterone, and a neurologist who repaired my brain some years ago and now it is almost a social call. Seems a pretty normal amount to me given I am old. My best friend is only 3 months older than I am and she once had at least four at once and was supposed to see two more. If you think three current doctors is a lot, just wait until you have patients who are seeing three different doctors in a week!

I know many doctors because there is a curse that follows me with primary care doctors. I start to see them, either my insurance changes, or they close the practice. Since 2008, I've had three PCPs (2 were DOs). Same neurologist though! Also saw several other doctors when they were trying to track down two diagnoses which they didn't believe me at first and had to prove it by seeing every specialty known to man. Turned out I was correct on my suspicions both times even though one is a slightly odd presentation.
 
Here is the real difference. Allopathic schools select students with high numbers, who have literally zero clinical experience and have no business practicing medicine. Osteopathic schools realize they provide a clinical doctorate, and select accordingly. 1000 hours of getting your hands dirty with paid clinical experience should mean more than a high MCAT, but it doesn't. It actually kind of boggles my mind how anyone could choose medicine without experiencing a little blood spatter on their shirt. Then again, medicine has one of the highest percentages of job dissatisfaction in the professional world. Makes sense.

Keep in mind, the medical model we are trending towards places emphasis on patient satisfaction. MDs have been at the helm of medicine for a long time and are trending down in this area, while mid-levels are trending upward. Like it or not, this is a battle physicians will have to fight, and the osteopathic model is simply better suited to consistently finding high quality physicians who want to actually practice as a clinician.
 
Here is the real difference. Allopathic schools select students with high numbers, who have literally zero clinical experience and have no business practicing medicine.

Seriously?:eyebrow:
 
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Seriously?:eyebrow:

I generalized 😛

The premise of my statement remains relevant to the issues, though. There are far too many people entering medical school who are inevitably going to be extremely dissatisfied with their career, simply because they did not know what they were getting themselves into. This wouldn't be an issue, except physicians are now having to compete with mid-levels (who largely know what they are getting themselves into, because they are required to have significant HCE) and patients are increasingly choosing mid-level care instead of physician care.

I personally would like to see the MCAT become a pass/fail exam. This would force people to explore more important avenues to increase their competetivness. Just a thought.
 
I generalized 😛

The premise of my statement remains relevant to the issues, though. There are far too many people entering medical school who are inevitably going to be extremely dissatisfied with their career, simply because they did not know what they were getting themselves into. This wouldn't be an issue, except physicians are now having to compete with mid-levels (who largely know what they are getting themselves into, because they are required to have significant HCE) and patients are increasingly choosing mid-level care instead of physician care.

I personally would like to see the MCAT become a pass/fail exam. This would force people to explore more important avenues to increase their competetivness. Just a thought.

I will take a totally socially incompetent physician over a nurse who is totally clinically incompetent when it comes to treating more than common colds.
Patients go to mid levels because they don't want to wait for an appointment with a physician or because they are otherwise uninformed about the level of training of their mid levels, more so NPs than PAs. Also, I don't believe there is any evidence that shows that osteopathic schools admit students who on average have statistically more clinical experience. Nor is there evidence that shows that DOs are more satisfied with their careers than MDs. In fact I would speculate that primary care physicians are not as satisfied as specialists and that larger debt burdens don't make for a happy physician, especially in primary care.
 
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I toured some DO schools prior to getting my MCAT back and applying, and each one gave a spiel as to why I should go DO and not MD. MD schools I toured and interviewed at didn't even acknowledge a difference. Just something I noticed along the way.
 
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