Difference between MD and DO

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@IsWhat :I wouldn't even call it generalizations because none of the things you said were even true...

 

[familyaerospace]

Just as a datapoint, my most recent MCAT was closer to the DO range than the MD range and my GPA wasn't spectacular but was solid. Had also 800 clinical hours on my application and a few thousand more which I never put down because the people were relatives and I felt like it was not appropriate to list. I am going to my top choice medical school (an MD school) in fall. On the MD interview trail, I have met a good many people with a thousand hours of clinical or more. Given some MD schools want a physician letter too or mandate X hours of clinical, I cannot imagine the MD/DO difference is completely true. Perhaps one of the adcomms can shed light on whether or not DO vs MD applicants have a statistically significant difference in clinical experience on application?

 

[jl lin]

They are probably waiting to come off a wait list at an allo institution.

See, no. Not necessarily.

Biases continue because people choose to keep on perpetuating them.

Whatever, mostly people will follow the crowd and then believe and perpetuate something. When more people stop following the crowd, and when perhaps there is some sound research, maybe the bias will die off. \

There won't be any significant research on it, however, b/c both schools of medical education would see that as counterproductive to their overriding goals.

 

[asdf123g]

.

 

[asdf123g]

I hate to perpetuate this thread....but I can't help it with comments like this. You can't just tell part of the story and play if off as just showing an "example" but saying "oh it does come down to the individual". Is the MD fresh out of residency? Is he just younger in general? Perhaps that's why he seems less experienced and knowledgeable. Does this mean the DO is "a better, more caring doctor?" Absolutely not. If they're the same age with same amount of practice years then it's unfortunate you feel that way and maybe the MD really isn't as great but I have run across many many an allopathically trained MD that are just as awesome with patient care where all their patients absolutely adore them. This is not a rarity. And on the flip side I've run across DO physicians that are terrible doctors, mistakes left and right. Am I therefore going to generalize this to all DO's? Of course not.

Plain and simple: What kind of doctor you'll be is be largely based already on what kind of person you are. For every example someone has of one particular incidence, someone else will have an example to counter it. So let's stop with these ridiculous posts of how "My DO cares so much more about me as a person." Good for you. I'm glad you have a great physician taking care of you. That's all it should be about. Being a great physician, no matter DO or MD.

#endrant

Id imagine there is probably (not always) a very big difference in personality and social skills between a person with a 3.7/36 and a 3.4/27 entering into medschool and later becoming a doctor. Two completely different populations.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Id imagine there is probably (not always) a very big difference in personality and social skills between a person with a 3.7/36 and a 3.4/27 entering into medschool and later becoming a doctor. Two completely different populations.

What about those of us with a 3.4/36? Am I a half-breed? Or a full mud-blood since I'm at a DO school? 😛

 

[asdf123g]

What about those of us with a 3.4/36? Am I a half-breed? Or a full mud-blood since I'm at a DO school? 😛

if you are being playful...lol 😉
if you are being serious, none of us know or will be able to gauge your personality or social skills through an internet forum. Are there 3.4/27 people who are painfully awkward...im sure; but id bet my house its more prevalent in the 3.7/36 population

 

[drdoom12]

This thread is so awful.

 

[deleted436726]

This thread is so awful.

When Dr. Doom says it's awful, you know things are getting bad.

 

[DrPerrla]

Listen guys, this thread should not have been started by the OP. They claimed that even after a search he /she couldn't find what they were looking for, which is a little hard to believe as there are literally so many of these around asking the same question.

However, too little too late. It has been started. People have their own opinion on the matter, and that's fine, we're all entitled to them, but that is not what we should be spouting. Facts are facts. Numbers don't lie. Give people the facts and let them choose for themselves which road they want to follow.

Whether MD or DO one day we'll all be colleagues so let's not be so petty and say ridiculous unfounded things like "if you have a 36 you must be more socially awkward that the person who got a 28". I hope whatever poor pre-med souls read this thread have the ability to hone in on the valuable information that does exist and ignore the rest of the garbage.

 

[asdf123g]

Listen guys, this thread should not have been started by the OP. They claimed that even after a search he /she couldn't find what they were looking for, which is a little hard to believe as there are literally so many of these around asking the same question.

However, too little too late. It has been started. People have their own opinion on the matter, and that's fine, we're all entitled to them, but that is not what we should be spouting. Facts are facts. Numbers don't lie. Give people the facts and let them choose for themselves which road they want to follow.

Whether MD or DO one day we'll all be colleagues so let's not be so petty and say ridiculous unfounded things like "if you have a 36 you must be more socially awkward that the person who got a 28". I hope whatever poor pre-med souls read this thread have the ability to hone in on the valuable information that does exist and ignore the rest of the garbage.

I agreed until the bolded part. lets also work to not misconstrue or reword statements in ones favor.
Original statement: Id imagine there is probably (not always) a very big difference in personality and social skills between a person with a 3.7/36 and a 3.4/27 entering into medschool and later becoming a doctor. Two completely different populations.

 

[DrPerrla]

I agreed until the bolded part. lets also work to not misconstrue or reword statements in ones favor.
Original statement: Id imagine there is probably (not always) a very big difference in personality and social skills between a person with a 3.7/36 and a 3.4/27 entering into medschool and later becoming a doctor. Two completely different populations.

You wanna tell me what I "misconstrued"? I wasn't aware that a test score and GPA automatically places you in different social and personality groups. You really need to just .

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You wanna tell me what I "misconstrued"? I wasn't aware that a test score and GPA automatically places you in different social and personality groups. You really need to just .

It doesn't automatically place you in a different social group. However, due to the high grades they are more likely to devot a lot of time into academics and have less outside interests. Again its not always but more of a correlation. I had a med school ask about outside interests as that was clearly something they saw. Its just an observation. Lots of people have high grades and have a relatively balanced life. There is a significant minority that don't have this.

To draw a parrelel its kind of like your pre med friends versus friends that have " easier" schedules. Some people don't like hanging around pre med people because of the obssevive personality their schedules creates. I have personally seen this less on the osteopathic side of things. I have also seen DOs are typically less prestige obsessed.

Either way it's my observation and you are free to disagree. However in my life experiences this is something I have encountered

 

[racerwad]

I agreed until the bolded part. lets also work to not misconstrue or reword statements in ones favor.
Original statement: Id imagine there is probably (not always) a very big difference in personality and social skills between a person with a 3.7/36 and a 3.4/27 entering into medschool and later becoming a doctor. Two completely different populations.

This is exactly what weaker students want to believe - that academic and social intelligence are mutually exclusive and that it is a zero sum game. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many, many students at top tier institutions are both intelligent and great people. You are in for a rude awakening.

See, no. Not necessarily.

Biases continue because people choose to keep on perpetuating them.

Whatever, mostly people will follow the crowd and then believe and perpetuate something. When more people stop following the crowd, and when perhaps there is some sound research, maybe the bias will die off. \

There won't be any significant research on it, however, b/c both schools of medical education would see that as counterproductive to their overriding goals.

Idk what you're getting at here. I'm not biased against osteopathic education. I just know that for students who are weighing both pathways, I would never counsel someone to go DO if they could go USMD. If DO is their only option, I would tell them to enjoy medical school and make the most of their opportunities. I feel that this is what I did and I'm grateful that my school gave me a chance to become a physician. I achieved what I wanted but with more stress and anxiety than I'd want someone else to experience.

 

[jl lin]

As you like it. Thanks for letting me play.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

I think there's a perception (unfair to MDs) that MDs are jerks and DOs are nice guys simply because there are many more practicing MDs in the US. You're more likely to encounter an MD who lacks people skills than you are to encounter a DO that lacks people skills because of the numbers. DO are still quite rare in some parts of the country.

Also, since DOs were traditionally discriminated against (if you shadow any older DO you will hear about this) and less well known they probably had to work harder at ingratiating themselves and explaining their title to patients, so naturally their people skills might be better.

Finally, admissions criteria for osteopathic schools weighs factors other than GPA and MCAT more heavily (e.g. community service, personal triumphs, etc.), so you're more likely to get a greater number of "people"-people in your class who couldn't cut it (or didn't have a competitive, type-A personality) in terms of academics in the MD applicant pool. DO schools have a little more leeway to let in people based on their ECs and service work than MDs school, some of which immediately trash your app if it doesn't make a certain cut-off. I'd argue the truly holistic aspect of the DO degree is the admission process, not how an osteopathic physician approaches the practice of medicine.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

This is exactly what weaker students want to believe - that academic and social intelligence are mutually exclusive and that it is a zero sum game. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many, many students at top tier institutions are both intelligent and great people.

👍

 

[asdf123g]

It doesn't automatically place you in a different social group. However, due to the high grades they are more likely to devot a lot of time into academics and have less outside interests. Again its not always but more of a correlation. I had a med school ask about outside interests as that was clearly something they saw. Its just an observation. Lots of people have high grades and have a relatively balanced life. There is a significant minority that don't have this.

To draw a parrelel its kind of like your pre med friends versus friends that have " easier" schedules. Some people don't like hanging around pre med people because of the obssevive personality their schedules creates. I have personally seen this less on the osteopathic side of things. I have also seen DOs are typically less prestige obsessed.

Either way it's my observation and you are free to disagree. However in my life experiences this is something I have encountered

^this.

 

[Desired Member]

MD = Lexus

DO = Toyota

*1990 Lexus
2015 Toyota

 

[WingedOx]

I agreed until the bolded part. lets also work to not misconstrue or reword statements in ones favor.
Original statement: Id imagine there is probably (not always) a very big difference in personality and social skills between a person with a 3.7/36 and a 3.4/27 entering into medschool and later becoming a doctor. Two completely different populations.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

*1990 Lexus
2015 Toyota

The DOs I shadowed drove BMWs

 

[22031 Alum]

^this.

If you honestly believe that people with higher grades tend to have fewer outside interests, it just tells me that you have had very little exposure to large numbers of smart people. The people who have to study to the point of excluding all other activities are few and far between. When I got to college, I was in awe of the people who were talented artists, rock stars on the sports fields, strong advocates for various causes, and still made astronomic grades. When I got to med school, I was even more in awe because those well-rounded academic superstars made up an even higher proportion of the people I interacted with daily. As someone said above, it's nowhere close to a zero sum game.

 

[racerwad]

... I'd argue the truly holistic aspect of the DO degree is the admission process, not how an osteopathic physician approaches the practice of medicine.

This is the most accurate description of the holistic nature of osteopathic schools ever typed on SDN.

 

[WingedOx]

This is the most accurate description of the holistic nature of osteopathic schools ever typed on SDN.

Eh, same crappy reasoning.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

If you honestly believe that people with higher grades tend to have fewer outside interests, it just tells me that you have had very little exposure to large numbers of smart people. The people who have to study to the point of excluding all other activities are few and far between. When I got to college, I was in awe of the people who were talented artists, rock stars on the sports fields, strong advocates for various causes, and still made astronomic grades. When I got to med school, I was even more in awe because those well-rounded academic superstars made up an even higher proportion of the people I interacted with daily. As someone said above, it's nowhere close to a zero sum game.

So true. Really smart people are often gifted in multiple areas including social intelligence.

 

[22031 Alum]

So true. Really smart people are often gifted in multiple areas including social intelligence.

I will readily admit that I used to think like some posters in this thread. I was top of my high school class and thought I was the ****. Then I got to college and found myself struggling. At first I looked at the kids who were excelling with disdain. I thought they were nerds with no lives, I thought they HAD to be super awkward with no friends because they always kept their nose in a book. Nope! It turns out some were more efficient/better at studying, and some didn't have to study as hard because they were just plain smarter than me. There were people who were really nice, had lots of friends, had cool hobbies, and did better than me in class despite all that! That really stung me to my 17 year old core.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

I will readily admit that I used to think like some posters in this thread. I was top of my high school class and thought I was the ****. Then I got to college and found myself struggling. At first I looked at the kids who were excelling with disdain. I thought they were nerds with no lives, I thought they HAD to be super awkward with no friends because they always kept their nose in a book. Nope! It turns out some were more efficient/better at studying, and some didn't have to study as hard because they were just plain smarter than me. There were people who were really nice, had lots of friends, had cool hobbies, and did better than me in class despite all that! That really stung me to my 17 year old core.

Did we go to the same crazy competitive college? 😛 I felt the same way at as you did. My classmates were all around awesome people. Multi-talented. It was such a humbling experience.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

So true. Really smart people are often gifted in multiple areas including social intelligence.

I have seen lots of people who match that description. I have met lots that are smart and lack in other areas (sometimes they have autism)

Either way generalaztions are difficult. Everyone is entitled to their own perceptions.

 

[WingedOx]

I will readily admit that I used to think like some posters in this thread. I was top of my high school class and thought I was the ****. Then I got to college and found myself struggling. At first I looked at the kids who were excelling with disdain. I thought they were nerds with no lives, I thought they HAD to be super awkward with no friends because they always kept their nose in a book. Nope! It turns out some were more efficient/better at studying, and some didn't have to study as hard because they were just plain smarter than me. There were people who were really nice, had lots of friends, had cool hobbies, and did better than me in class despite all that! That really stung me to my 17 year old core.

To be fair, every time I hang out with Ms. Ox's college friends (she went to a certain top 10 ug), I'm convinced that some environments emphasize "social intelligence" more than others, to put it mildly.

 

[Gandyy]

It is absolutely amazing how so many intelligent people actually believe there is a significant difference between the worth/intelligence etc between a DO and MD.

So many entitled ignorant booksmart but still utterly clueless people on here.

 

[jl lin]

Gandy, no one really believe that. In fact I believe there have been studies on students that were bright, high performers, who were also scored high on EQ and socialization. Whatever. IQ and EQ can be related due to certain standing organic individual issues; however, IQ and EQ are not mutually exclusive, period.

To Tired,

I really think I do get your point. And it ha also seemed like a common, yet unspoken understanding that if a person wanted to pursue a highly competitive specialty, the advantage goes to MD. Is it necessarily fair or right? Well those are other questions. I don't believe so anymore than I believe if you graduate summa cum laude, you will have sucky social skills. Come on. LOL

To be honest, let's just be real. Surgery is a tough, tough road, regardless. Yes, probability wise, advantage will be given to the MD candidate especially as far as surgery is concerned. As I said. Doesn't mean it is right. I get that you are directing people that know they want a certain path and in order to help them have an advantage, and from my experience overall, well then yes, allopathic will give you better odds. This however, as I have shared, doesn't mean it is always so. And yes, I'd say that it took the DO CT surgeons I know of more work and effort and time to get the respect they deserve. Still doesn't mean that it's the best way to move forward; b/c I differ with you that strong clinical exposure is greatly important. You have a lot of people that are on the higher ends statistically speaking. They are surely capable; however, b/c they didn't get enough exposure, and ultimately thrust against that bear during residency, well, their heart and soul was just not totally there. Buyer's remorse is a much harder thing to live with in this field I believe...for many reasons.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Gandy, no one really believe that. In fact I believe there have been studies on students that were bright, high performers, who were also scored high on EQ and socialization. Whatever. IQ and EQ can be related due to certain standing organic individual issues; however, IQ and EQ are not mutually exclusive, period.

To Tired,

I really think I do get your point. And it ha also seemed like a common, yet unspoken understanding that if a person wanted to pursue a highly competitive specialty, the advantage goes to MD. Is it necessarily fair or right? Well those are other questions. I don't believe so anymore than I believe if you graduate summa cum laude, you will have sucky social skills. Come on. LOL

To be honest, let's just be real. Surgery is a tough, tough road, regardless. Yes, probability wise, advantage will be given to the MD candidate especially as far as surgery is concerned. As I said. Doesn't mean it is right. I get that you are directing people that know they want a certain path and in order to help them have an advantage, and from my experience overall, well then yes, allopathic will give you better odds. This however, as I have shared, doesn't mean it is always so. And yes, I'd say that it took the DO CT surgeons I know of more work and effort and time to get the respect they deserve. Still doesn't mean that it's the best way to move forward; b/c I differ with you that strong clinical exposure is greatly important. You have a lot of people that are on the higher ends statistically speaking. They are surely capable; however, b/c they didn't get enough exposure, and ultimately thrust against that bear during residency, well, their heart and soul was just not totally there. Buyer's remorse is a much harder thing to live with in this field I believe...for many reasons.

I think I'm misunderstanding you somewhere. I think we (and everyone else) agree that it isn't necessarily fair that MD gets a "leg up" over DO for competitive surgical subspecialties. However, from my (possibly incorrect) understanding, you are saying that to advise someone to pursue an MD when attempting to enter one of these fields is the incorrect choice. You then base this upon the fact that MDs have less clinical exposure than DOs, saying that MDs therefore lack the heart and soul that is apparently unique to DOs and thus will not survive these brutal residencies. Am I understanding you correctly?

What I really don't understand is why 1) you think that DOs necessarily have more clinical exposure than MDs, 2) why DOs necessarily have more "heart and soul" than MDs, and 3) why you think advising someone to take an unnecessarily more difficult route to achieve the same goal is a defensible position.

Please help me understand your reasoning.

 

[jl lin]

I think I'm misunderstanding you somewhere. I think we (and everyone else) agree that it isn't necessarily fair that MD gets a "leg up" over DO for competitive surgical subspecialties. However, from my (possibly incorrect) understanding, you are saying that to advise someone to pursue an MD when attempting to enter one of these fields is the incorrect choice. You then base this upon the fact that MDs have less clinical exposure than DOs, saying that MDs therefore lack the heart and soul that is apparently unique to DOs and thus will not survive these brutal residencies. Am I understanding you correctly?

What I really don't understand is why 1) you think that DOs necessarily have more clinical exposure than MDs, 2) why DOs necessarily have more "heart and soul" than MDs, and 3) why you think advising someone to take an unnecessarily more difficult route to achieve the same goal is a defensible position.

Please help me understand your reasoning.

OK, I take the blame. Late night, wee hours post. 🙂
I get that Tired is trying to help people be realistic when looking at going into a competitive surgical specialty. I get that there is an advantage that can go to the MD over the DO student. But realistically, people have to do what works for them. I give a lot to individual determination and perhaps destiny, if that's what you want to call it. I mean, yes. A person has to do their part. But what is the message ultimately to the DO student? "Tough crap!? You don't have a shot in hell in getting into a surgical residency!?" That just not true. Harder doesn't mean impossible.

Increasing odds before applying to med school? Well, once again. A person has to do what they feel works best for them. So, they move forward, and they may not easily procure a surgical residency. Well there is no guarantee that the MD grad is going to procure that either. At some point, there are other individual factors that would give essentially "stats-equal" grads a foot up over the other.

I am saying, like interviewing for any job, it won't necessarily just be about if you graduated from a top-ten school or a MD versus DO program. There are a number of other factors that will go into giving the slot to one person over the other.

MSs and residencies are always about eye-uping their competition in the extreme. Some of that just makes sense, and then their comes a point that things move to other factors and "X-factors" outside of mere competitive statistics. When a person that goes to med school has been in the work world and has done a good amount of job interviews over their years, they get this. (Another + for non-trads!)

There is no perfect formula for getting what you want or believe you want in an imperfect world. You do the best with what you have and what works for you. If people had always waited until the formula for success looked as pluperfect as possible, nothing in the world would have ever moved forward and would have ever gotten done.
So, take the stats as ONLY one perspective, and then do the best with what you have and move forward.

I know of not merely one ALLOPATHIC surgical resident that actually left that and when into other specialities like anesthesia, b/c the brutality of surgical residency just wasn't worth it to them, and they just didn't have the passion for it that other surgical residents do.

Also, the clinical exposure and experience issue isn't necessarily just about which school gives more. I was talking about getting heavy clinical exposure before medical school--and then getting heavy exposure--as much as you can in your area/s of interest in years 3/4 of MS. It's all fuzzy theoretically "WOW" and curiosity without the reality factors until you are actually working in it or at least are very close and observing what it really entails. People, especially Americans and even more so, especially Gen X Yuppy types lean heavy toward the fuzzy idealism of wanting things apart form thinking through or actually facing the associated harsh realities. This is to their detriment IMHO.

So while I get preparing people for the realities of pursuing a competitive speciality w/ one "brand" of degree vs another, there is life and it's messy and not perfect. There is no perfect formula or path for getting where you want or where you THINK you want to go. IMHO, the first step is to get as MUCH INSIGHT (directly) about what you are seeking to find out about an area and then really weighing what it truly entails over what you THINK ENTAILS. It's like getting patients to realistically look at benefits vs risks. The more realistic of a picture, the more likely the patient will accept the +'s and -'s as they move forward with a plan.

If a person strongly thinks they will want to pursue surgery pre-MS or even during MS, to me, first, it behooves them to shadow or get a job in area where they will have as much exposure to surgeons and residents and their work-life as possible.

Listen, and I admit this is a crappy example, some folks think they will like gardening. The idea of lovely produce and flowers is great to them. It isn't until they get their hands in the dirt, are clearing the soil, pulling weeds, remediating the soil, watering consistently, and then dealing with those inevitable pests and other factors that can determine if the crop thrives or fails, when they will get if it's in them to do it and continue to do it and enjoy it. You have to be patient, b/c you have to wait and play with conditions repeatedly at times before you get your reward. And even after doing everything right, you can still experience plant or crop loss.
You have to live and breathe it and get your hands dirty and sweat and be stressed through different factors and environments.

If I could change one thing in medicine it would be the required amount of direct, clinical exposure over time. And, the latter half of the 2nd year of MS, I'd want to see more push of clinical rotations at many more schools. People need to get their hands dirty A LOT more and A LOT earlier on in medicine. I think it's a great injustice to students and residents. Now they have paid through or will be paying through the nose for this education, and it may totally be a forced fit, b/c they are stuck with high student loans over many years. And for those that truly find they do really love medicine, it's really unfair to make them wait to throw in way more rotations of interest so late in the education process.

Back to the original point from Tired. Yea. I dig that Tired is trying to give students a sound heads-up. I personally am for that. But there are many other factors that one must way in as well.

I mean if you go DO, no. You are not necessarily totally screwed in terms of competitive specialties, and neither in fact should you be. The best person for the training and job is not and should not be solely determined by MS "brand" anymore than it should be for a MS grad at a state school being brushed aside by a Harvard graduate. Again on interview, certain other factors will go into determining if the person is a good fit.

 

[jl lin]

No actually I am not. I am totally For preparing people for how the world is. If you had read you would have gotten that. Plus, I wasn't done editing yet. 🙂

I'm not a totally black and white thinker. I give you the reality that Neurosurg is going to be a huge ball buster for even your top-playing allopath grad. I have worked also with these guys/girls--mostly guys in big university medical centers. But the neurosurg deal is kind of unfair b/c that's just a hugely competitive, ball-busting path for anyone--and yea--it's path is also paved with A LOT of research, which makes this a disadvantage to many DO's in general.

So, I am not against your preparing people for the realities at all. I praise you for it.

It's just that there are other factors that go into the process, and it seems silly to forsake these other factors and "X-factors."

And the end of the day, few of the "best of the best" will get into ANY neurosurg program. But this is not necessarily true of Gen Surg, etc.

Also, I am truly sorry if I offended you in any way. As I said, I'm not a black/white thinker, b/c in general, life just doesn't work that way many times.

I like the equations balanced. 🙂

 

[jl lin]

Oh and Tired, my decision as of now is to enter the "lowly" primary care realm. LOL. The surgical road IME is one mostly for the really young--there may be some exceptions, but for many at late 30's or 40's etc going for surgery, well, it's brutal enough for the 20 something kids. Heck, I don't even know if I would have the temperament for it if I were 20.

I have enjoyed exposure to it, and learning somewhat about it, but no. I don't want to be in that pressure cooker. If that makes me a pansy, then fine. But you know there is something to that wisdom of Plato, Socrates, and other Greeks..."Know thyself."

Same thing w/ OBGYN. It is a laudable and I find interesting area (that many people underestimate). But I know that I think more like internal medicine/family medicine/peds. I only know that--to perhaps a degree more than the average MS or pre-med--b/c of many years as a critical care/surgical recovery nurse in adults/peds. This has given me some interesting and close insights, although they are not total or complete insights--and I am not suggesting that they are. But it's hugely beneficial in terms of me "knowing myself" in this regard, I believe.

 

[TessTaylor26]

No actually I am not. I am totally For preparing people for how the world is. If you had read you would have gotten that. Plus, I wasn't done editing yet. 🙂

I'm not a totally black and white thinker. I give you the reality that Neurosurg is going to be a huge ball buster for even your top-playing allopath grad. I have worked also with these guys/girls--mostly guys in big university medical centers. But the neurosurg deal is kind of unfair b/c that's just a hugely competitive, ball-busting path for anyone--and yea--it's path is also paved with A LOT of research, which makes this a disadvantage to many DO's in general.

So, I am not against your preparing people for the realities at all. I praise you for it.

It's just that there are other factors that go into the process, and it seems silly to forsake these other factors and "X-factors."

And the end of the day, few of the "best of the best" will get into ANY neurosurg program. But this is not necessarily true of Gen Surg, etc.

Also, I am truly sorry if I offended you in any way. As I said, I'm not a black/white thinker, b/c in general, life just doesn't work that way many times.

I like the equations balanced. 🙂

Let me start by saying DO's and MD's are both equal and should be treated as such. I'm not sure why there is a continuous conversation on this thread where basically someone says "MD = DO, though it may be tougher for a DO to obtain certain competitive residencies" and then you reply with " Tougher yes, but not impossible" (which it sounds like others ARE AGREEING WITH YOU, nobody said it would be impossible). Minus the few ill-informed/rude comments, all are in agreement here.

Though for reference to your last post: For some of the most competitive residencies you mention (where only 3 DO’s matched ACGME derm, 1 DO matched ACGME orthopedic surg, 3 DO’s matched ACGME neurological surg):

- average USMLE step 1: 230

Dermatology- mean USMLE Step 1: 247
- MD applicants who scored b/w 221-240: 69% matched with slightly below to slightly above avg step 1 scores

Orthopedic surgery- mean USMLE Step 1: 245
- MD applicants who scored b/w 221-230: 52% matched with slightly below to avg step 1 scores

Neurological surgery- mean USMLE Step 1: 244
- MD applicants who scored b/w 221-230: 83% matched with slightly below to avg step 1 scores

Before you reply saying "OK so it will be tougher as a DO, but still possible, which I want others to know"........I know that, I agree with you. When 1 DO matches to ACGME orthopedic surgery compared to an MD applicant who can be below avg or avg and have a 52% success rate to match, that's a pretty significant advantage. (NOT saying this is fair, I'm just providing some data to corroborate other's claims that an MD may be advantageous when applying to residencies, though MD = DO intellectually and in capabilities.)

 

[jl lin]

Dear DOs:



via Imgflip Meme Maker

Sorry, it was just too tempting. LOL

 

[jl lin]

None of these things are offensive or controversial. Just advocating for keeping options open.

That seems fair.
Well, I am neither a DO nor MD yet, so. . .

Love that Pinocchio Meme!

 

[HuskyBabe]

Isn't it ridiculous that we even have to have this discussion? MD or DO...either one is a physician that is competent enough to treat you. And if they're not competent enough, it certainly has nothing to do with which set of letters are following their name.

If you think there's a serious distinction between the competence of the two, it sounds like you need to get over your ego

 

[jl lin]

Isn't it ridiculous that we even have to have this discussion? MD or DO...either one is a physician that is competent enough to treat you. And if they're not competent enough, it certainly has nothing to do with which set of letters are following their name.

If you think there's a serious distinction between the competence of the two, it sounds like you need to get over your ego

I hear you. You realize my Pinocchio meme posting was meant as a silly joke? (Gotta admit, that was creative thinking for those that pitched to Geico.) There is so much BS floating around the world, it is refreshing to see a commercial poking fun at it. . . & no pun intended there.)

But sometimes you have wonder if a serious number of MDs and students believe what you are saying or not. I do, b/c I have worked with both "brands" of physicians and have seen w/ my own eyes that "it's not the suit but the person in the suit."
So, I can just imagine some of them standing up like Pinocchio as they try to motivate DO students and physicians onward into primary care or such--and as they are saying "Youuu haave potential." Meanwhile the nose just gets longer and longer. IOW, some students and graduates don't really believe that DOs have all that much potential. I mean, I see some of the points they make. Much of it is no different than the point of getting an IVY league education to help propel your career forward.

Who knew that many in 2015 still see DO graduate as DOG--as in underdog.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

You're defending your degree, and that's great. I have a long history on this board, and no one can accuse me of being anti-DO. More often than not I find myself defending the degree from some strange misconceptions, primarily by allo med students.

That being said, I'm a realist, and I believe is maximizing options at all times. All I'm saying is that it is easier to tag a competitive specialty with an MD. That's it. Not saying it's impossible with a DO, or that no one has ever done it, it just makes that mountain steeper. For a select few specialties, it makes it a whole lot steeper.

My class was filled with MS1 students who were going to do primary care. Of those, a double-digit number bailed out for the ROAD specialties once they saw what primary care entailed and paid. A handful of others hit the IM fellowships as fast as possible following residency. Not to say primary care sucks; I did a variation of it for nearly four years, and it has rewarding moments. But people can (and frequently do) change their specialty choice with increasing exposure. I was totally sure I was going to be a General Surgeon. Then I met them. They sucked.

So I'm not going to argue this point anymore after this. I will just reiterate that if you have the choice, I recommend taking MD rather than DO.

Similarly, if you have the choice: take a DO school over a Caribbean school, take an Ivy over a State school, take a research-oriented school or residency over a non-research oriented school or residency, take a university residency program over a community program, take orthopaedics over everything else.

None of these things are offensive or controversial. Just advocating for keeping options open.

This post should end the thread.

 

[22031 Alum]

I mean, I see some of the points they make. Much of it is no different than the point of getting an IVY league education to help propel your career forward.

Who knew that many in 2015 still see DO graduate as DOG--as in underdog.

You say you see the point, but your next sentence says you don't. If we define underdog as disadvantaged in certain situations, then yes. DO grads absolutely are underdogs. It doesn't mean they are inferior, or doomed to be bad physicians, or anything like that. You seem to feel that anyone acknowledging these disadvantages is implying that, and we aren't. We're just stating a fact of life from our experience. You don't have to like it or think it's fair (and I can see how an aspiring DO applicant would not), but that doesn't make it untrue.

Best of luck to you!

 

[jl lin]

You say you see the point, but your next sentence says you don't. If we define underdog as disadvantaged in certain situations, then yes. DO grads absolutely are underdogs. It doesn't mean they are inferior, or doomed to be bad physicians, or anything like that. You seem to feel that anyone acknowledging these disadvantages is implying that, and we aren't. We're just stating a fact of life from our experience. You don't have to like it or think it's fair (and I can see how an aspiring DO applicant would not), but that doesn't make it untrue.

Best of luck to you!

Seriously, I think some are just taking stuff way too serious. I said I see some of it. But there is a whole other side that can be taken to extremes.
It will be what it will be for whomever. So, DO schools should only exist to produce primary care physicians? Hmmm, maybe NP, PA, and DO should merge into one kind of educational program. 🙄

Branding has it's pluses and minuses. The most important issue here overall is how the person "brands" themselves by how they function and present.

Everyone is not going to go to Harvard for med school, and not everyone is going to go to an allopathic med school to become a physician.

The difficulties of moving into various specialties have been delineated. This has been well noted. And to be fair, the difficulties for certain specialties are more challenging in general, regardless of your school "brand." Might this be an added challenge for DO grads? Perhaps. Heck, for some specialties I will go ahead and say Probably, b/c many have made some reasonable points. So what? So long as the path one makes is put down with integrity and hard work, let people end up where they end up.

I'm confused as to whether this is actually about fair advising of DOs or potential DO students as they consider moving toward certain specialties, or is it about pointing out some sense of inferiority w/ one that pursues DO path over MD? I want to believe it's simply about the former, but the angst with which some have participated here makes me question the latter. Yea. I'm allowed to question this, so long as I say I absolutely can't say for sure.

Personally, I see this as something to chillax about. An intelligent person is going to do the research and weigh most of the cogent factors in terms of what may or may not work for them with their possible future goals. Most people that apply to either MD or DO schools are reasonably intelligent in my experience.

If midlevels are doing OK in specialties, I think it's not unreasonable to assume DOs could do well in them also. Yes, I get that those are different levels/kinds of practice. Point is, everyone thought NPs would take over primary care. But you know what? A great number of them are schooling and practicing outside of primary care.

So, I'm not really big on extremist thinking here. But I think that Tired's last reply should be given fair consideration; b/c how can it be a bad thing to keep one's option's open? So kudos to Tired for presenting points in such a constructive and fair way.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I think you are misunderstanding or misrepresenting people's arguments in all of your posts. You are trying to argue against things that no one has come remotely close to saying.

 

[Jplewis002]

All of the posts here are really redundant and annoying. Everyone keeps saying the same thing with slightly different words. Can we close this thread now, please?

 

[tiedyeddog]

Seriously, I think some are just taking stuff way too serious. I said I see some of it. But there is a whole other side that can be taken to extremes.
It will be what it will be for whomever. So, DO schools should only exist to produce primary care physicians? Hmmm, maybe NP, PA, and DO should merge into one kind of educational program. 🙄

Branding has it's pluses and minuses. The most important issue here overall is how the person "brands" themselves by how they function and present.

Everyone is not going to go to Harvard for med school, and not everyone is going to go to an allopathic med school to become a physician.

The difficulties of moving into various specialties have been delineated. This has been well noted. And to be fair, the difficulties for certain specialties are more challenging in general, regardless of your school "brand." Might this a added challenge for DO grads? Perhaps. Heck, for some specialties I will go ahead and say Probably, b/c many have made some reasonable points. So what? So long as the path one makes is put down with integrity and hard work, let people end up where they end up.

I'm confused as to whether this is actually about fair advising of DOs or potential DO students as they consider moving toward certain specialties, or is it about pointing out some sense of inferiority w/ one that pursues DO path over MD? I want to believe it's simply about the former, but the angst with which some have participated here makes me question the latter. Yea. I'm allowed to question this, so long as I say I absolutely can't say for sure.

Personally, I see this as something to chillax about. An intelligent person is going to do the research and weigh most of the cogent factors in terms of what may or may not work for them with their possible future goals. Most people that apply to either MD or DO schools are reasonably intelligent in my experience.

If midlevels are doing OK in specialties, I think it's not unreasonable to assume DOs could do well in them also. Yes, I get that those are different levels/kinds of practice. Point is, everyone thought NPs would take over primary care. But you know what? A great number of them are schooling and practicing outside of primary care.

So, I'm not really big on extremist thinking here. But I think that Tired's last reply should be given fair consideration; b/c how can it be a bad thing to keep one's option's open? So kudos to Tired for presenting points in such a constructive and fair way.

Just for my knowledge, what is your level of education?

 

[22031 Alum]

So what? So long as the path one makes is put down with integrity and hard work, let people end up where they end up.

Nobody will disagree with you on this- as much as you seem to think we are. But you can't say "so what" about things like that on a forum that exists to give pre-meds advice. Because it is an important consideration. That's all I'm saying. I've said it enough different ways, so I'll stop with this.

And since I've figured out from context clues that you plan on applying, a word of sincere advice. PLEASE tighten up your writing for your personal statement. Using a hundred extra words and a dozen platitudes is only hurting your efforts to get your points across.

Good luck!!

 

[jl lin]

Nobody will disagree with you on this- as much as you seem to think we are. But you can't say "so what" about things like that on a forum that exists to give pre-meds advice. Because it is an important consideration. That's all I'm saying. I've said it enough different ways, so I'll stop with this.

And since I've figured out from context clues that you plan on applying, a word of sincere advice. PLEASE tighten up your writing for your personal statement. Using a hundred extra words and a dozen platitudes is only hurting your efforts to get your points across.

Good luck!!

I agree Alum. In fact, I never said it was not an important consideration.

Thank you for your suggestions. I write and have written for many different sources/things. Casual message boarding isn't something over which I need to stress. 🙂 As I know it, writing is all about writing and re-writing and then re-writing again. It can be a lot of work. I surely have done tons of it. MB, online conversations are by their nature, relaxed. They are not necessarily to be scholarly, creative, or highly technical.
But it is kind of you to offer any input. I do appreciate that you would take the time to offer some pointers/tips. This is encouraging to those in the pre- med phase. Perhaps when I do fully formulate my PS, you would consider reviewing it. I would appreciate your input on it. Seriously. 🙂

 

[jl lin]

Just for my knowledge, what is your level of education?

I'm just curious why you asked this question, "just for your knowledge?"

 

[jl lin]

I was wondering the same thing about you, but didn't ask.

The main reason I was wondering is that you're apparently extremely passionate about this issue, but at the same time you seem a little inexperienced with various issues surrounding medicine in general and being a pre-med specifically. I'm probably not the only person wondering if you're in high school or very early college, and just recently started thinking seriously about medicine. Which is totally fine, don't get me wrong, but was just curious.

Well, I won't share anything new. I have a BSN (summa cum from a good university--if that matters to anyone, since it is "only nursing"--as well as many other certs and such that perhaps will get another "eye roll" as well--damned hospital units that expect extra didactic as well as clinical education and certs--all so that they feel safe w/ you caring for their IABP or ECMO patients--and those on just about too many gtts to count.)-->That was sarcasm btw.
I also have very strong clinical experience in university-based medical centers, primarily in CT surgery peds & adults and critical care. Experience clinically is over 17 years. Yea, I have worked with so many interns, residents, fellows, and attendings, and I'd like to say I remember them all. It would be impossible.


As is the case sometimes at SDN, I sadly expect that this sharing will be further impetus to attack someone for daring to have an opinion. Regardless, if so, I'll live. 🙂