Difference between MD and DO

[DrPerrla]

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I'm just confused as to why a nurse would be so active on a pre-med thread unless they were thinking about pursuing a doctorate. You are entitled to your opinions but in all honesty I would never try to give advice about a degree I do not have or am not pursuing.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I was wondering the same thing about you, but didn't ask.

The main reason I was wondering is that you're apparently extremely passionate about this issue, but at the same time you seem a little inexperienced with various issues surrounding medicine in general and being a pre-med specifically. I'm probably not the only person wondering if you're in high school or very early college, and just recently started thinking seriously about medicine. Which is totally fine, don't get me wrong, but was just curious.

This is exactly why I asked. It is apparent you have some experience in a health related field. It is also apparent you aren't a medical student or physician due to your lack of understanding of becoming a physician or the patient-physician relationship.

Look, I am sure you are a damned fine nurse. But how does this qualify you to speak about the match potential of DOs or MDs?

 

[22031 Alum]

Pretty sure that ji lin is about to apply, and will be applying DO. (And I maintain that the fact that she's so many posts deep without this being abundantly clear is not a ringing endorsement of her writing style- Internet informality aside.) So her point of view is understandable- defending the degree she hopes to have. But it comes from a place of zero firsthand experience. All that nursing experience has a very valuable role... just not for this particular discussion. I think it can be hard to let go of that feeling of seniority/expertise. It is obviously well-earned, it simply doesn't apply in this case.

 

[jl lin]

I wish you luck in your applications.

Consider applying MD as well, we get more chicks.

Thanks. 🙂

 

[jl lin]

Pretty sure that ji lin is about to apply, and will be applying DO. (And I maintain that the fact that she's so many posts deep without this being abundantly clear is not a ringing endorsement of her writing style- Internet informality aside.) So her point of view is understandable- defending the degree she hopes to have. But it comes from a place of zero firsthand experience. All that nursing experience has a very valuable role... just not for this particular discussion. I think it can be hard to let go of that feeling of seniority/expertise. It is obviously well-earned, it simply doesn't apply in this case.

Not sure why my perspective based on working with both DOs and MDs closely doesn't ALLOW me to have an opinion--especially since that opinion is not in opposition to any posted here--unless there is negativity about others having pro-DO as well as pro-MD perspectives.

OK then. Good luck to you.

 

[JimmyB123]

I wish you luck in your applications.

Consider applying MD as well, we get more chicks.

Do you really get more chicks? Omg legitimate concern right here

 

[jl lin]

Oh and the reason I will put more of my eggs in the basket of DO over MD is age. While age discrimination may be illegal, let's realistically assume it does happen and older applicants can be brushed aside under some other pretext. Competition is great enough, so other pretext wouldn't be an issue. I have no idea if this would be more of an issue for an older female applicant over a male applicant. There is really no way to know. Plus some would say that there may be bias based on one being a nurse. Nurse-hate, whether justified or not, still exists as well. Personally, I don't think it will matter that much how young someone looks for their age or how healthy they are. I am blessed in that way. Regardless, however, I can't spend a lot of time worrying about it. I can only move forward in the best way I can. So, since it would seem, at least to some greater degree, that DO schools may be more open to older apps than many MD schools, I will put a lot of focus on DO programs--especially since I am looking to work in primary care. I would prefer, by far, to not work in primary care as an NP. I have solid reasons for this.

 

[Mad Jack]

I wish you luck in your applications.

Consider applying MD as well, we get more chicks.

I dunno man, our degree starts with the D and ends with an O for a reason, if you know what I'm sayin...

 

[22031 Alum]

Not sure why my perspective based on working with both DOs and MDs closely doesn't ALLOW me to have an opinion--especially since that opinion is not in opposition to any posted here--unless there is negativity about others having pro-DO as well as pro-MD perspectives.

OK then. Good luck to you.

You can have all the opinions you want, but uninformed opinions simply aren't as valuable in a targeted forum. That's just a fact of life (that I would think someone with your experience would have realized by now). And in an open forum like this, you will be called out for spouting ill-informed opinions in situations where informed facts are preferred. I've worked alongside nurses, but I don't think I have the right to go to a nursing forum and tell aspiring nurses what their job prospects are going to be like, based on my opinions. Can you see how that would not be well-received? Being near something, and actually doing it, are different and not equal, even though both can produce opinions. Does that make sense?

Honestly at this point I'm feeling like this is more basic life advice than an MD vs. DO thing. Your experience will be valued and appreciated by many people in many situations. It can and will help you. But you are going to have to realize its limits, or you will not foster goodwill in a process where you will need it. You will need to learn when to put on your "experienced nurse who is a leader and supervisor" hat, and when to put on your "aspiring pre-med" hat. In other words, situational awareness.

I really do want you to be successful in whatever you try for.

 

[jl lin]

You can have all the opinions you want, but uninformed opinions simply aren't as valuable in a targeted forum. That's just a fact of life (that I would think someone with your experience would have realized by now). And in an open forum like this, you will be called out for spouting ill-informed opinions in situations where informed facts are preferred. I've worked alongside nurses, but I don't think I have the right to go to a nursing forum and tell aspiring nurses what their job prospects are going to be like, based on my opinions. Can you see how that would not be well-received? Being near something, and actually doing it, are different and not equal, even though both can produce opinions. Does that make sense?

Honestly at this point I'm feeling like this is more basic life advice than an MD vs. DO thing. Your experience will be valued and appreciated by many people in many situations. It can and will help you. But you are going to have to realize its limits, or you will not foster goodwill in a process where you will need it. You will need to learn when to put on your "experienced nurse who is a leader and supervisor" hat, and when to put on your "aspiring pre-med" hat. In other words, situational awareness.

I really do want you to be successful in whatever you try for.

Sigh. Well I am not saying what the job prospects are or are not necessarily. But I cannot control how you infer anything. That's completely up to you.

I think you would find a number of DOs, MDs, as well as those in progress on either of those paths at the old premeds site that may differ with an extreme mentality that says "Your choices are completely in the toilet if you do DO."

I already conceded that indeed the path may well be harder for DOs in certain specialties. So, you don't think, however, that with the recent merger of the osteopathic and allopathic accreditation organizations things won't get better for DOs?


Thank you for the last line. I hope the same for you in your career and life.

 

[JimmyB123]

Sigh. Well I am not saying what the job prospects are or are not necessarily. But I cannot control how you infer anything. That's completely up to you.

I think you would find a number of DOs, MDs, as well as those in progress on either of those paths at the old premeds site that may differ with an extreme mentality that says "Your choices are completely in the toilet if you do DO."

I already conceded that indeed the path may well be harder for DOs in certain specialties. So, you don't think, however, that with the recent merger of the osteopathic and allopathic accreditation organizations things won't get better for DOs?


Thank you for the last line. I hope the same for you in your career and life.

i don't think things will get better for DOs with the merger. a lot of people think similarly

i think they'll get worse and we will get edged out more out of previously DO-only residencies, but then again i'm an M0 and I'm very pessimistic about this whole process anyways

 

[AlteredScale]

I dunno man, our degree starts with the D and ends with an O for a reason, if you know what I'm sayin...

Dude. New signature.

 

[username456789]

I already conceded that indeed the path may well be harder for DOs in certain specialties. So, you don't think, however, that with the recent merger of the osteopathic and allopathic accreditation organizations things won't get better for DOs?

We can't know for sure yet, but many people tend to think the opposite. Things may get worse for DOs.

My residency program chooses not to interview DO. Never has, and won't be anytime in the conceivable future ( whether that's right or wrong is inconsequential here). This is definitely not unique to my program, either. With a few exceptions, this is standard practice across the board in my specialty.

With the coming merger, students at the school here I don't to be able to apply residency programs and my specialty, but also the osteopathic ones. Maybe osteopathic students will get lucky, and the osteopathic dermatology program directors will choose not to interbiew allopathic students; but if not, suddenly the DO students face increasing competition for the precious few traditionally DO Derm slots.

This is, of course, only one specialty, and a rather niche one.

 

[MrChance2]

. Things may get worse for DOs.

It completely depends on what the matching student is going for. The people that are going to feel it the most are the DOs wanting to do competitive specialties with stats that don't compare to MDs. The DOs who get 250s USMLE will fare better as they will compete better in the open market, as will the DOs that want moderately or less competitive specialties that are primarily MD (Neurology, Radiology if the recent trend continues, maybe pathology, prob some of the IM programs). But yeah, the people who went DO because they knew it was their only shot at derm are gonna get hit the hardest IMO. Thats my prediction anyway. I doubt many former DO derm program directors are going to have an MD with a 255 USMLE and a DO with a 235 and still take the DO if all else is equal.

 

[freemontie]

Post-merger, I wonder if FMGs/IMGs will have the opportunity to apply for DO spots as well. If so, the 588 or so unfilled yearly DO spots would be a boon for Caribbean students and others.

However, I thought I heard MD students wanting to apply for DO would have to somehow find time to take an extra class in OMM to be eligible to apply. If true, then that might limit them anywhere from a little bit to significantly.

 

[Mad Jack]

Post-merger, I wonder if FMGs/IMGs will have the opportunity to apply for DO spots as well. If so, the 588 or so unfilled yearly DO spots would be a boon for Caribbean students and others.

However, I thought I heard MD students wanting to apply for DO would have to somehow find time to take an extra class in OMM to be eligible to apply. If true, then that might limit them anywhere from a little bit to significantly.

IMGs will be eligible for DO spots. No idea how the DO competency bit will work though. You can't really learn all of OMM in a few weeks, but maybe additional OMM will be worked into their residency? Who knows.

 

[rockhard805]

IMGs will be eligible for DO spots. No idea how the DO competency bit will work though. You can't really learn all of OMM in a few weeks, but maybe additional OMM will be worked into their residency? Who knows.

I think this is an interesting aspect of the merger that won't be determined until the merger actually occurs. Norman Gevitz wrote an article where he stated,

"Please note that if, in the event that any osteopathic- oriented programs place significant barriers or hurdles in the way of MD candidates to enter these programs because of osteopathic manipulative medicine requirements, MD candidates will sue in federal court and probably win their constitutional claim that these programs are violating the “equal protection clause” of the 14th Amendment."

There is a thread on this site about this article but thought I would quote what he said. He's the guy that wrote The DOs book that a lot of people read before interviewing at DO schools.


Heres the link to the full article:
http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/hpf/pdf/bios april 2014/2014-AODME Presentation The Unintended Consequences of the ACGME Merger.pdf

 

[Mad Jack]

I think this is an interesting aspect of the merger that won't be determined until the merger actually occurs. Norman Gevitz wrote an article where he stated,

"Please note that if, in the event that any osteopathic- oriented programs place significant barriers or hurdles in the way of MD candidates to enter these programs because of osteopathic manipulative medicine requirements, MD candidates will sue in federal court and probably win their constitutional claim that these programs are violating the “equal protection clause” of the 14th Amendment."

There is a thread on this site about this article but thought I would quote what he said. He's the guy that wrote The DOs book that a lot of people read before interviewing at DO schools.


Heres the link to the full article:
http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/hpf/pdf/bios april 2014/2014-AODME Presentation The Unintended Consequences of the ACGME Merger.pdf

I've read it already. Hence why my thought is that they'll either integrate OMM into the residency as a heavier component or front-load with OMM and then force them to do extra OMM time throughout their residency. That's not a barrier, it's just kind of how OMM works, you need time to practice it. Certain fields that are OMM-light, such as rads or anesthesia, might have a minimal OMM requirement.

 

[ClrkKnt]

About 6 points on the MCAT.

Seriously, that's the only difference.

And a higher undergrad GPA (MD), that too.

 

[allantois]

@madjack @rockhard805 What do you guys think about what Gevitz said? I feel like he's drawing out a slightly radical worst case scenario with more than just residency slots. It seems like a slippery slope. I don't like how Norm also draws the parallel of "homeopathic" and "eclectic" schools being shuttered and the terminology disappearing to osteopathic colleges post-merger. The two are entirely unrelated and I don't see how juxtaposing them is appropriate in his prediction. I'm uncertain on whether or not I'd like the merger to occur (I'm a bit iffy on why it has to happen...), but I don't believe the end result would be as bad as he suggests. Do you?

@Goro have you read Gevitz opinion piece on the merger? What do you think, if so?

I read the guy's book and I used to support his opinion. I do think that some residencies will close down but not as many as he predicts. After all, he is advocating for GME being done from the offices of private docs.

For instance the place where my dermatologist trained stopped accepting residents already. Granted, residents were not provided a stipend but most of them were already practicing family/internal medicine.
http://opportunities.osteopathic.or...program_id=146377&hosp_id=119557&returnPage=1