Difference between MD and MD/PhD

[Mac11]

If this was covered in another place, I'd appreciate it if you pointed me in the right direction

My question is, what, specifically, is the difference between MD and MD/PhD? Are there 'extra' classes? How does it differ from a 'simple' MD program? What about residencies? Can you (or do you) still practice medicine with an MD/PhD or do you 'have' to go into research?

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[Neuronix]

www.mdphds.org Check out the docs on there and if you still have questions come on back and ask them.

 

[Mac11]

www.mdphds.org Check out the docs on there and if you still have questions come on back and ask them.

I looked at that site before I posted (and after); it is more about how to apply, and what the differences are in applying for the school. That's great, but I'm really more interested in asking what they are.

For example, can anyone give me a sample course schedule of an MD/PhD?

 

[RxnMan]

I looked at that site before I posted (and after); it is more about how to apply, and what the differences are in applying for the school. That's great, but I'm really more interested in asking what they are.

For example, can anyone give me a sample course schedule of an MD/PhD?

Most are built on a (2 + x + 2) year map, where x is the number of years it takes for you to complete your PhD thesis work. First years you will do the basic science that any med student does, and you'll come back to do your clinicals. You dailiy schedule will match that of your peers, depending upon where you are in the program - lectures for science years, lab work all day for the thesis part, and in the clinic all day for the final 2. Most people get out in ~8 years, though I've met a guy who screamed out of his program in an amazing 6 years!

 

[Mac11]

Most are built on a (2 + x + 2) year map, where x is the number of years it takes for you to complete your PhD thesis work. First years you will do the basic science that any med student does, and you'll come back to do your clinicals. You dailiy schedule will match that of your peers, depending upon where you are in the program - lectures for science years, lab work all day for the thesis part, and in the clinic all day for the final 2. Most people get out in ~8 years, though I've met a guy who screamed out of his program in an amazing 6 years!

thanks!

I'm assuming you do a residency after that, too? that makes it a total of like... 12 years?

 

[Neuronix]

Ok dok. One other useful FAQ is at http://www.med.upenn.edu/mstp/applicantfaq.pdf

For the cirriculum, as RxnMan says, schools are typically set up as 2 years of MD, PhD, then 2 years of MD. That being said, there are a few little tricks like getting rid of med school elective time and doing grad school rotations early that saves you a year or two over doing the MD and PhD seperately. The PhD is a standard PhD: you take a year or two of coursework, do a few rotations, then slave away in a lab for a few years to get a thesis out before returning to medicine. In general, there is a little bit of crosstalk between the MD and PhD cirricula. For example, you can often take a graduate credit per semester while in your first two years of medical school, helping to speed up your PhD. Also, during your summers, you do graduate school rotations, and some even start doing this the summer before first year. In graduate school, there are often programs to help you keep thinking about medicine, but in general this is a small amount of your time and doesn't count for very much.

With your MD/PhD you can practice medicine OR research OR both. They are both, full, official degrees. 99% of students go on to do a residency.

It's hard for me to give an example course schedule, because there's just so many darn courses and so many per semester, but here's approximately what I've done. Some of this is specific to my school, but you'll get the idea I hope.

Summer before 1st year - grad school rotation
1st semester - anatomy, physiology, histology, genetics, biochemistry, and more. On top of that "Topics in Molecular Medicine" seminar in the late afternoon once a week which counts as a grad school elective credit.
2nd semester - organ blocks. Pathology, pharmacology, and physiology of the specific organ systems in blocks lasting about 1 or 2 weeks each. I took an advanced math course twice a week at night.
Summer between 1st and 2nd year - grad school rotation
3rd semester - more organ blocks, alot of clinics preparation
4th semester - My school starts clinics 6 months early, so I did medicine, family, neuro, and psychiatry rotations. (I'm really glad I got this before starting grad school btw!)
Summer between 2nd and 3rd year - USMLE Step 1, 6 weeks off (I went and studied in Guatemala)
5th semester - 4 graduate school courses and a rotation
6th semester - 4 more graduate school courses
Summer between 3rd and 4th year - Defended pre-liminary exam
Now: Working on thesis. Going for a combined total of 7 years (with a couple months off before returning to med school).

That all being said, it's not as bad as it looks! In general, I have worked anywhere from 30-60 hours/week depending on the week. I probably average around 40. I take about a month a year of vacation, and I have travelled to Greece, Vancouver, Honduras (x2), Mexico, and Guatemala since starting the program. Before starting the program I toured much of Western Europe.

 

[Neuronix]

I'm assuming you do a residency after that, too? that makes it a total of like... 12 years?

MD/PhD Program - 7-8 years (usually)
Residency - 3 - 7 years (usually 3 - 5)
Fellowship - 1 - 3 years
Total - 11 to 18 years post bachelor's

 

[gbwillner]

If this was covered in another place, I'd appreciate it if you pointed me in the right direction

My question is, what, specifically, is the difference between MD and MD/PhD? Are there 'extra' classes? How does it differ from a 'simple' MD program? What about residencies? Can you (or do you) still practice medicine with an MD/PhD or do you 'have' to go into research?

Just to add to what others have said, I would like to point out that the "difference" between the two (MD and MSTP) is very heavily dependent on the institution. For example, many schools are the standard 2 + X + 2, as previously mentioned, but there are MANY exceptions. Some schools have integrated MSTP-only courses during medical school, such as cell biology/histology, so you don't have to repeat the course in your PhD and these courses stress mechanisms over simple pathology diagnosis. In these programs, some (or many) of your med school courses are separate from the rest of the MDs and PhDs. Other programs there is little "flow" between the two portions of your training, and they expect you to complete both independently of each other. Typically these are poorly-run programs. Most schools have something about the curriculum that makes them unique.

Many programs also have special "perks" for the MD/PhDs, whether it be parking, computers, tickets to local sporting events, etc., as a way to repay you for your slave labor and lost innocence (and youth).

 

[RxnMan]

Whoops - I may have only answered a subset of the OP's questions.

The benefit of doing the MD/PhD is you are uniquely (and fully) trained as both a scientist and a physician. That's it. The paid tuition makes it a wash in terms of money (save ~200k on tuition, but lose ~200k minimum for lost years of practice as an attending), and the overlap in PhD and MD schedule makes it so you lose less time. The PhD may help you get some residencies, but residencies are research-oriented and aimed at making academicians, while the extra doctorate won't help you in private practice. Thus, if you aren't gunning for a professorship, then your time, money, and effort are probably better spent elsewhere.

As an aside, MSTP students are funded through the NIH, and MD/PhD students are funded through their school, but the programs are on the whole, the same.

As an MD you can do research like a MD/PhD, but MD/PhDs have better training and more research experience, so they generally get more established in their field (bring in the grant $) more quickly than a MD would. By numbers alone, there's more MDs doing research than MD/PhDs, and MDs can get much of the same research training by doing fellowships or post-docs. Look up any of the IM fellowship programs out there (the CU Pulmonology fellowship is one example,). Many of these programs also support fellows getting advanced degrees. The difference is that you'll get 70k as a fellow, when your med school MD/PhD classmate is still a resident.

If you are set on an academic career, or you know you want to be a med school prof, then MD/PhD is the way to go. There's no better training out there. If not, or you're undecided, then it's probably better to go MD, because you can more easily change your mind.

 

[Mac11]

Great, thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my questions!

It sounds really hardcore