Difference between NP & PA....

[USAF_Dentman]

Sorry for the confusion, but what are the major differences? Arent they both allowed to prescribe meds under physician order, etc.?

Thanks.

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[PACtoDOC]

Sorry for the confusion, but what are the major differences? Arent they both allowed to prescribe meds under physician order, etc.?

Thanks.

2 words: medical knowledge

 

[deleted6669]

also it isn't "under physician order " as pa's and np's have their own dea #s. it would be more accurate to say pa's and np's write rxs as a part of their delegated practice agreements( as in the doc doesn't have to approve rx's or cosign).
pa and np scopes of practice overlap quite a bit and many places advertise for a pa/np to work in x setting. for more info on pa's see www.aapa.org and www.physicianassociate.com

 

[acutecarenp]

2 words: medical knowledge

Two more words:

Responses like that are one of the reasons why most efforts, to date, to form an alliance between NPs and PAs (such as National mid level practitioner organizations) have been nothing more than futile.

Keep up the good work!

P.S. Another difference is that you cannot be an NP without a Masters Degree.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Two more words:

Responses like that are one of the reasons why most efforts, to date, to form an alliance between NPs and PAs (such as National mid level practitioner organizations) have been nothing more than futile.

Keep up the good work!

P.S. Another difference is that you cannot be an NP without a Masters Degree.

There is that Master's degree thing again. These days you can get a soda and a Master's degree out of a pop machine for a grand total of $.75

What will the NP's say when all the PA programs are Master's programs, which is basically a reality near fruition already?

I'll say it again. Medical Knowledge!

 

[hospPA]

What will the NP's say when all the PA programs are Master's programs, which is basically a reality near fruition already?

Matt,
That is a great question! I really wonder what they will say.

My take: NP's and PA's basically compete for the same jobs, unless the physician has a personal preference to one or the other (Like, "prefers medical training" or "will work for cheaper because there are more of them"). Both professions practice medicine under the supervision of a physician. NP's "call" this supervision "collaboration". Do not fool yourself however, it IS supervision. It should be. How can you be independent with a couple years nursing experience and two years of part-time schooling? I have no idea.

The other issue is that one who practices medicine should be trained in medicine, right? That is not the case for NP's.

Let me qualify this by saying that I work with many great NP's. They are great because of course they are smart and they have abandoned the independent practice crap that is fed to students in NP school. They realize that they are indeed practicing medicine and therefore took the time to learn it.

Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS

 

[deleted6669]

Two more words:

Responses like that are one of the reasons why most efforts, to date, to form an alliance between NPs and PAs (such as National mid level practitioner organizations) have been nothing more than futile.

Keep up the good work!

P.S. Another difference is that you cannot be an NP without a Masters Degree.

oh look it's a certificate np program! wow nondegree granting so all you need is an rn certificate, not even an adn to get in/out. I understand there are still 4-5 others around like this just in california alone! so time to cut out the "all np's have masters degree bs"

Los Angeles BioMedical Research Institute

at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center
Women's Health Care
Nurse Practitioner Program

The Women's Health Care Nurse Practitioner Program

is a certificate (non-degree granting) program

that educates Registered Nurses in an expanded role

to provide primary health care to women throughout the life cycle.

The program is directed by the Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, David Geffen School of Medicine,

and is offered through Los Angeles BioMedical Research Institute

at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center in Torrance, California.

The WHCNPP is nationally accredited

by the National Association of Nurse Practitioners in Women’s Health,

and is approved by the California Board of Registered Nursing

as a provider of advanced practice nursing education.

California Certificate Level Nurse Practitioner Program Meets Rural Needs

Those who know about the Women's Health Care Nurse Practitioner Program at Harbor-UCLA Research and Education Institute in Torrance, California often say it is one of California's best kept secrets. Martha Baird, CNM, NP, MSN, director of education for the program would like to change that perception. She and the program staff are committed to increasing the awareness of the program through outreach efforts, particularly to registered nurses practicing in rural areas.

"This certificate level program is a perfect fit for rural Registered Nurses (RNs) because two-thirds of the clinical experience is done at home in the community where he or she is already practicing," says Baird. "Students only have to be on-site at the Harbor-UCLA campus for 16 weeks." The certificate program educates RNs in an expanded role to provide primary health care to women throughout the life cycle.

Under the direction of the Department of Gynecology, UCLA School of Medicine, but not housed at the university, the program offers an alternative to a master's level nurse practitioner degree. A nurse practitioner can be a critical addition to a rural staff. Once a student is a graduate and licensed, he or she does not need a physician on site in order to practice, according to Baird. "You don't need to be an MD to provide contraception or to do a pap smear," says Baird. "This allows the physician to be better utilized in his or her area of expertise." The role of a rural NP can also be very broad. The practitioner may also set the stage for a teenager's continued use of health services, provide ambulatory care to a pregnant woman both during the prenatal and postpartum periods and create an environment in which a woman is able to share, and receive help for, difficult areas in her life such as substance abuse, domestic violence, or eating disorders.

The Harbor-UCLA nurse practitioner program is one of the few certificate programs left in the country; California is one of the few remaining states that licenses NPs with this type of education. With the women's health certification program, students study in Torrance, California for 16 weeks. Following those 16 weeks is a five month clinical preceptorship under a physician, nurse midwife or nurse practitioner. It is possible to engage in the preceptorship program while maintaining another part time job. If students want to continue on with the program to obtain a certificate as an adult or family nurse practitioner, there is an additional two to three semesters of training, each of which begins with a 2-3 week intensive didactic course at Harbor-UCLA, followed by 16 weeks of precepted clinical experience in the student's home community. The adult course requires two semesters of training, each of the family course adds a third semester of pediatric focus.

Tuition for the Women's Health Care Nurse Practitioner Program is $10,000, with an additional $6,000 for the optional adult program, and another $2000 for the pediatric semester to complete the Family Nurse Practitioner program. Tuition support from the California Family Health Council Inc. (CFHC) offers a partial tuition waiver for RNs who are already employed by a CFHC-funded agency. For students willing to practice in an Health Professions Shortage Area or Medically Underserved Area after graduation, a grant from the Maternal-Child Health Branch of California DHS provides 50% tuition waiver. This is especially helpful for students who are already working in rural, underserved communities.

Currently, the majority of program participants are from urban areas and Baird says they are interested in recruiting more rural nurses to participate. "This is a very attractive program for nurses in rural areas. They have to be RNs but they can have any type of RN preparation. Many nurses in rural areas have associate's degrees and they are still able to participate in the program," explains Baird. In 2002 only 50 percent of participants had a bachelor's degree. The program has linkages with four universities, California State Long Beach, Azusa Pacific, University of Phoenix and Western University of Health Sciences, so participants can earn academic credentials along with a certificate.

Baird said that many of the program's students are older learners, with half being over the age of 34. Often they have been practicing for quite some time, but for some nursing is a second career. Baird says, "It's very scary for them because they aren't sure they can still learn. We work very closely with our students to make sure they are successful."

The program boasts over 1500 graduates around the world and hopes recruit more rural applicants for the next term beginning in May (other sessions begin in September and January of each year). Applications are still being accepted.

"It's a life changing experience for our students. Transformative. They come in expecting to get more clinical skills and knowledge but beyond that they learn more about the lives of the women. They come to appreciate the circumstances of women's lives and how that affects them," says Baird.

For more information on this certification program go to www.womenshealthnp.org or contact Martha J. Baird, CNM, NP, MSN, director of education at 310.222.3713 or [email protected]. All application materials are available to be downloaded from the Web site. For application materials, deadlines, and requirements of tuition waiver programs, please contact Lynette Short at 310-222-3729.



Article Posted 4/7/03

 

[prince_moses]

Here is a better question what is the difference between an RN and PA?, we dont have PA's here in Canada and just wanted to know and is PA a degree program like nursing or a diploma.?

 

[deleted6669]

Here is a better question what is the difference between an RN and PA?, we dont have PA's here in Canada and just wanted to know and is PA a degree program like nursing or a diploma.?

pa's are clinicians. they see pts,perform histories and physical exams, order tests, interpret them,perform procedures, write prescriptions, and arrange follow up and referals.
nurses follow orders written by pa's/md/do/np folks and do not have any authority on their own to order medications or interpret studies.
both roles are important and needed for a facility to run.

most pa programs are graduate level programs taken by folks with prior degrees and experience as paramedics, nurses, resp. therapists and other health care professionals. for general info on the pa profession see www.aapa.org

as an aside pa's do work in canada in your armed forces as well as in manitoba in the civilian sector. I think they call them clinical associates or something similar in manitoba but they are the same creature.

 

[NPtobe]

One main difference is the hx of NPs and PAs. For example in 1965, the first PA program was introduced at Duke University as a result of the National Nursing League refusing to accredit a program taught mainly by physicians. NPs are governed by nurses, and I believe PAs are governed by physicians. This is a good and a bad thing. For example NPs often meet more resistance than PAs because MDs feel NPs are intruding upon their scope of practice by attempting to practice medicine without a license. One could take that perspective or one could also argue physicians just are upset because they fear losing power. Depending on the state, NPs do not have to work under a physician and can prescribe meds including narcotics. In addition NPs are reimbursed only 85% of medicaid/medicare as opposed to MDs getting the full 100% (obviously it isn't as good as it sounds because you always have overhead costs, etc.). So I would say currently the main difference is NPs have a background with some clinical experience and their perspective is more that of a nursing background and incorporate medicine as well into their practice. PAs are taught by MDs and lack clinical experience so their perspective is that of a medical model. To make it clear, nurses often are in charge of getting the orders done the MD writes, just like nurses are responsible for completing the orders a PA or NP writes. NPs do not take orders even when they work alongside a physician. What happens is NPs reference MDs when they run into difficulty. However, there are some independent run NP clinics even one on Park 5th Ave in New York who have a large pt load and do an excellent job running their own clinic. Neither is necessarily better, just a little different. I'm sure there will come the day when PAs are resistant to being controlled and will fight for equality and respect like NPs have been doing since the 1960s. Also, I'm not sure where everyone gets their information from regarding the practice of NPs. But, I can tell you the only true way to know the truth is by referencing the Board of Nursing for their state, because NPs are governed by their own boards and laws and not by physicians. And what NPs can do varies by states. Please check it out, it would be nice for people to know the TRUTH about what NPs can and cannot do.

 

[NPtobe]

I would not say these definitions are necessarily totally inclusive, but here's a decent way to determine what some NPs and PAs are about. Check out these links, http://www.shands.org/health/information/article/001935.htm and http://www.shands.org/health/information/article/001934.htm

 

[diabeticfootdr]

pa's are clinicians. they see pts,perform histories and physical exams, order tests, interpret them,perform procedures, write prescriptions, and arrange follow up and referals.
nurses follow orders written by pa's/md/do/np folks and do not have any authority on their own to order medications or interpret studies.
both roles are important and needed for a facility to run.

most pa programs are graduate level programs taken by folks with prior degrees and experience as paramedics, nurses, resp. therapists and other health care professionals. for general info on the pa profession see www.aapa.org

as an aside pa's do work in canada in your armed forces as well as in manitoba in the civilian sector. I think they call them clinical associates or something similar in manitoba but they are the same creature.

Prince_Moses is from Canada, EmedPA, you're being too defensive . . . in many other countries an RN functions like a PA and can even write simple prescriptions. I did diabetes research in England and surgery in Germany. It was like that in both countries.

LCR

 

[Sinnman]

NPtobe,

You really need to stop reading all that nursing propaganda.

 

[PACtoDOC]

Prince_Moses is from Canada, EmedPA, you're being too defensive . . . in many other countries an RN functions like a PA and can even write simple prescriptions. I did diabetes research in England and surgery in Germany. It was like that in both countries.

LCR

Perhaps if you were a full-spectrum physician you would understand what it means to be someone's doctor. My suggestion would be that you and NPtobe pack your bags and move to Germany or england. Healthcare here is dictated by science and by physicians. I don't really care what happens in those places.

 

[NPtobe]

Thanks for the strong support and advice PACtoMD. ALthough actually I plan on staying in the US. So unfornately you will have to work with people like me (NPs). So the sooner you can get off your high horse and learn to work as a team, the sooner you'll learn your patients will be better off. Take care and I appreciate everyone's comments including the negative ones.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Perhaps if you were a full-spectrum physician you would understand what it means to be someone's doctor. My suggestion would be that you and NPtobe pack your bags and move to Germany or england. Healthcare here is dictated by science and by physicians. I don't really care what happens in those places.

I am a physician. And you are very narrow minded if you "don't care what happens" in other countries. Medicine is becoming more of a global community with information sharing. For your information, the science is more advanced in European countries with fewer regulations on research.

We're all in this for the advancement of patient well-being. Perhaps you found it necessary to further your medical education PAC to DOC to advance your own ego. PATIENTS are 1st priority.

LCR

 

[50960]

The reality in the field of medicine is that PAs and NPs are interchangeable, and both are quality mid-level practitioners. All the other grandstanding that has happened on this thread is due to egos, and nobody really pays any of that any mind in a clinical setting.

 

[PACtoDOC]

I am a physician. And you are very narrow minded if you "don't care what happens" in other countries. Medicine is becoming more of a global community with information sharing. For your information, the science is more advanced in European countries with fewer regulations on research.

We're all in this for the advancement of patient well-being. Perhaps you found it necessary to further your medical education PAC to DOC to advance your own ego. PATIENTS are 1st priority.

LCR

I respect the fact that you are a highly qualified surgical foot specialist, but you are not a physician. Some states allow Pods to be called physicians just as some states allow chiro's to call themselves physicians. But unless you are licensed to take care of a person from head to toe, in every state, you are not a physician and we all know that. I mean if you are a physician, then why are you limited to certain anatomical regions in surgery and treatment? You are no different than an optometrist, but they are not physicians. The difference for instance would be that an orthopedic foot specialist could quit their ortho job and go work locums in a county health clinic or urgent care center as a full-spectrum physician any day they chose to. You cannot do this, so you are not a physician. You are exactly what you are, a highly skilled, valuable member of the allied health team who can take care of feet and ankles.

 

[niko327]

So I would say currently the main difference is NPs have a background with some clinical experience and their perspective is more that of a nursing background and incorporate medicine as well into their practice. PAs are taught by MDs and lack clinical experience so their perspective is that of a medical model.

Simply not true. The typical PA student either has substantial health care work experience, premedical type undergraduate coursework or both. Your post is misleading, there are many things people can do besides nursing that makes for outstanding clinical experience. I am NOT NP-bashing, NPs are a strong assett to the healthcare system as are PAs. But nursing is not the only thing one can do to prepare themselves for a career as a midlevel.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

I mean if you are a physician, then why are you limited to certain anatomical regions in surgery and treatment?

True that DPM's have a scope of practice limited to the foot and ankle, but every physician has a self-limited scope of practice. NO ophthalmologist would do orthopedic surgery, NO urologist would read head CTs. Are they legally allowed to do "diagnose and treat human beings", YES. But, they operating out of their "area of expertise" and exposing themselves to unnecessary liability.

According to Medicare, DPM's are physicians and surgeons of the foot and ankle. We are independent practitioners. I have an unlimited license to diagnose (example: a patient that presents with ankle edema may CHF, venous stasis, renal failure) but a limited license to treat. I have my own hospital admission privileges. If I have a diabetic patient admitted to my service, I do the admission H&P, write orders for all their medications, and oversee their entire care. Now if they had uncontrolled HTN or went in to DKA, I would be stupid to treat that myself without a medicine consult. But with high-risk diabetic patients, I do give them peri-operative beta-blockers, I do give them statins, and place them on insulin drips.

Not denying the scope of practice point you're making. Just showing where we may do more than you think.

LCR

 

[50960]

Of course you are a physician....these folks who are jerking your chain have short-docs syndrome.

 

[Sinnman]

I have no problems with DPMs. They have gone through the same undergraduate training, four years of post-graduate biomedical and clinical sciences and then some post-doctoral training. They are valued members of the healthcare team.

My problem is with people who go to a part-time, 18 month program (of which a substantial proportion of which is not even directly related to patient care) and think they know and can do everything that a physician can.

Even though I didn't post anything against podiatrists, I don't want to see a DPM bashing thread.

 

[PACtoDOC]

I don't doubt that you are excellent at what you do. What I doubt is the consistency of the DPM training from residency to residency. Here at JPS, the Pod residents are part of the same intern rotation that the MD and DO's are. But I know plenty of Pods who never even did a surgical residency at all and yet they still have the same 3 initials. I just had to give you a hard time because you were in essence defending the fact that an RN could safely prescribe meds simply because it is done in the UK you say. But I don't doubt your quals. I am sure you are excellent. Now if you can just convince the rest of your profession to practice up to that standard. And one thing that I think would make more sense would be to lobby to have the Pods take the USMLE. That would be the icing on the cake as to your equivilency to MD/DO guys. Because every physician must pass these boards prior to their specialty board. Why should DPM's be any different?

True that DPM's have a scope of practice limited to the foot and ankle, but every physician has a self-limited scope of practice. NO ophthalmologist would do orthopedic surgery, NO urologist would read head CTs. Are they legally allowed to do "diagnose and treat human beings", YES. But, they operating out of their "area of expertise" and exposing themselves to unnecessary liability.

According to Medicare, DPM's are physicians and surgeons of the foot and ankle. We are independent practitioners. I have an unlimited license to diagnose (example: a patient that presents with ankle edema may CHF, venous stasis, renal failure) but a limited license to treat. I have my own hospital admission privileges. If I have a diabetic patient admitted to my service, I do the admission H&P, write orders for all their medications, and oversee their entire care. Now if they had uncontrolled HTN or went in to DKA, I would be stupid to treat that myself without a medicine consult. But with high-risk diabetic patients, I do give them peri-operative beta-blockers, I do give them statins, and place them on insulin drips.

Not denying the scope of practice point you're making. Just showing where we may do more than you think.

LCR

 

[diabeticfootdr]

I don't disagree with either of you two on the above points. A lot of DPMs are, sadly to say, schmucks. They would never go for taking the USMLE. I agree we should take it. I actually authored the chapter for podiatry in the First Aid for the USMLE; Step 1 - 2005, and I'm working on Step 1 and 2 for 2006 now. It would prove equivalency. Unfortunately, you have about 20% of the class that are good physicians, that feel comfortable with treating difficult conditions, and understand medicine well (only because they're self-motivated learners), and the rest . . . well, you know.

The nice thing is, you can make a difference in this profession, if you're ambitious and you want to.

LCR

 

[mariedoreen]

My problem is with people who go to a part-time, 18 month program (of which a substantial proportion of which is not even directly related to patient care) and think they know and can do everything that a physician can.

Even though I didn't post anything against podiatrists, I don't want to see a DPM bashing thread.

Of course not... we're all much too busy bashing NPs to distract ourselves with that right now.

 

[BSN]

Matt,
That is a great question! I really wonder what they will say.

My take: NP's and PA's basically compete for the same jobs, unless the physician has a personal preference to one or the other (Like, "prefers medical training" or "will work for cheaper because there are more of them"). Both professions practice medicine under the supervision of a physician. NP's "call" this supervision "collaboration". Do not fool yourself however, it IS supervision. It should be. How can you be independent with a couple years nursing experience and two years of part-time schooling? I have no idea.

The other issue is that one who practices medicine should be trained in medicine, right? That is not the case for NP's.

Let me qualify this by saying that I work with many great NP's. They are great because of course they are smart and they have abandoned the independent practice crap that is fed to students in NP school. They realize that they are indeed practicing medicine and therefore took the time to learn it.

Pat, RN, PA-C, MPAS

You have it wrong. NPs have a master degree which is a min of 6 years of education. After the first 4 years to get BSN they must sit for RN license which is not easy, often need to know more then you are allowed to use .RN License exam have questions such as what does the nurse expect the will be ordered (so you need to have an understanding of medicine). Even before we finish our BSN we have a lot of what you call "medical Knowledge". We know our medications what they are used for and side effect. WE understand disorders and their early and late sign/symptoms. We know our labs why they are abnormal what should be done. I can go on forever… Call it what you want nursing/medical education it is very much the same. Then we need a min of one year clinical experience to reinforce this concept. We have a license as RN and are responsible for understanding the care we are providing, not just the technical aspect. Ok, then you take the GRE and apply to masters program. The masters program is 2 full years, NOT PART TIME. If you want to go part time this will take longer like 3-4 years. The NP education is just a different way of teaching thing such as OD and MD, not any less. Many studies have shown that NP provides good health care, one printed in JAMA.
NPs are not mini docs but help the doc to provide healthcare in a new ways, which patient seem to like. They bring something new to the table.
I can see you are a PA thus putting down NP education, why do people do this. I want to be an NP but will not but down PA because we are both mid-level prac. Working together to better patient care is the goal right, not fighting among ourselves.

 

[guetzow]

Medical Model Forever............

 

[Sinnman]

You have it wrong. NPs have a master degree which is a min of 6 years of education. After the first 4 years to get BSN they must sit for RN license which is not easy, often need to know more then you are allowed to use .RN License exam have questions such as what does the nurse expect the will be ordered (so you need to have an understanding of medicine). Even before we finish our BSN we have a lot of what you call "medical Knowledge". We know our medications what they are used for and side effect. WE understand disorders and their early and late sign/symptoms. We know our labs why they are abnormal what should be done. I can go on forever… Call it what you want nursing/medical education it is very much the same. Then we need a min of one year clinical experience to reinforce this concept. We have a license as RN and are responsible for understanding the care we are providing, not just the technical aspect. Ok, then you take the GRE and apply to masters program. The masters program is 2 full years, NOT PART TIME. If you want to go part time this will take longer like 3-4 years. The NP education is just a different way of teaching thing such as OD and MD, not any less. Many studies have shown that NP provides good health care, one printed in JAMA.
NPs are not mini docs but help the doc to provide healthcare in a new ways, which patient seem to like. They bring something new to the table.
I can see you are a PA thus putting down NP education, why do people do this. I want to be an NP but will not but down PA because we are both mid-level prac. Working together to better patient care is the goal right, not fighting among ourselves.

BSN, I have to tell you that I find your posts offensive. In fact, it seems that your responses are generating a lot of the animosity that is brewing on this forum.

Let me be specific:

"We know our medications what they are used for and side effect. WE understand disorders and their early and late sign/symptoms. We know our labs why they are abnormal what should be done."

Yes you do know some knowledge of this. It is at a very cursory level that is enough to understand how to function as a nurse.

"Call it what you want nursing/medical education it is very much the same."

Umm, no, no it's not. The education of a physician and a nurse are completely different. Why do you feel qualified to make such a statement? Have you experienced both?

"The masters program is 2 full years, NOT PART TIME."

Wrong again. As I have posted before, there are MANY schools that offer a NP is as little as 18 months "full time" and 2 years part-time. These include some top tier schools.

"The NP education is just a different way of teaching thing such as OD and MD, not any less."

I find this particularly insulting. An MD is not just a "different" education; it is FAR more complex, many TIMES longer and much more involved. You insult everyone on this board that holds or is completing a doctorate in anything (dentistry, medicine or others) by this statement.

Also, as I have stated before, I do have quite a bit of authority on this. I am a nurse, with a bachelor’s degree, that took NP classes and then went to medical school. I respect nurses a lot. I still work as an RN but your comments are simply out of line.

Please do not continue to insult people, undermine their educational endeavors and spew misleading statements on this forum. In fact, unless you care to contribute information about allied health providers interested in a medical career, perhaps you should stop posting on studentdoctor and join one of the nursing forums.

 

[Mike MacKinnon]

Well said


I too agree that BSN is pushing it. I have been a nurse for a long time and have progressed up the ladder to waht i think is the most independant an RN can be. There isnt a comparison between RN's and MD/DO, the education is vastly superior in the Physician role.

I realize you are trying to be pro-Nurse, but you are going about it the wrong way. In order to create change for nurses that is positive you might want to become politically active in nursing organizations, this is not the place for it.

BSN, I have to tell you that I find your posts offensive. In fact, it seems that your responses are generating a lot of the animosity that is brewing on this forum.

Let me be specific:

"We know our medications what they are used for and side effect. WE understand disorders and their early and late sign/symptoms. We know our labs why they are abnormal what should be done."

Yes you do know some knowledge of this. It is at a very cursory level that is enough to understand how to function as a nurse.

"Call it what you want nursing/medical education it is very much the same."

Umm, no, no it's not. The education of a physician and a nurse are completely different. Why do you feel qualified to make such a statement? Have you experienced both?

"The masters program is 2 full years, NOT PART TIME."

Wrong again. As I have posted before, there are MANY schools that offer a NP is as little as 18 months "full time" and 2 years part-time. These include some top tier schools.

"The NP education is just a different way of teaching thing such as OD and MD, not any less."

I find this particularly insulting. An MD is not just a "different" education; it is FAR more complex, many TIMES longer and much more involved. You insult everyone on this board that holds or is completing a doctorate in anything (dentistry, medicine or others) by this statement.

Also, as I have stated before, I do have quite a bit of authority on this. I am a nurse, with a bachelor’s degree, that took NP classes and then went to medical school. I respect nurses a lot. I still work as an RN but your comments are simply out of line.

Please do not continue to insult people, undermine their educational endeavors and spew misleading statements on this forum. In fact, unless you care to contribute information about allied health providers interested in a medical career, perhaps you should stop posting on studentdoctor and join one of the nursing forums.

 

[Sinnman]

Well said

You as well, Mike.

 

[BSN]

Well said


I too agree that BSN is pushing it. I have been a nurse for a long time and have progressed up the ladder to waht i think is the most independant an RN can be. There isnt a comparison between RN's and MD/DO, the education is vastly superior in the Physician role.

I realize you are trying to be pro-Nurse, but you are going about it the wrong way. In order to create change for nurses that is positive you might want to become politically active in nursing organizations, this is not the place for it.

Ok, I can clearly see my messages are misread, maybe it is the way I write them, sorry. I would never compare OD and MD to nursing education that is not my intention. I was saying the like DO and MD are both doctors but educated by a dif model then I went on the compare this to PA and NP saying that they are both mid level prac educated in dif model. You are right there is NO comparison between RN and MD/Do; again I think there was a misunderstanding.
Ok, well again I would like to say SORRY, I guess my messages are misread/miswritten. Everything i said sounds like it was taken a dif. but i guess that is the thing about post, I will not try to explain it now but jsut say, SORRY FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDING. I as just trying to educate people on nursing.

 

[mx_599]

Ok, I can clearly see my messages are misread, maybe it is the way I write them, sorry. I would never compare OD and MD to nursing education that is not my intention. I was saying the like DO and MD are both doctors but educated by a dif model then I went on the compare this to PA and NP saying that they are both mid level prac educated in dif model. You are right there is NO comparison between RN and MD/Do; again I think there was a misunderstanding.
Ok, well again I would like to say SORRY, I guess my messages are misread/miswritten. Everything i said sounds like it was taken a dif. but i guess that is the thing about post, I will not try to explain it now but jsut say, SORRY FOR THE MISUNDERSTANDING. I as just trying to educate people on nursing.

Can you stop jacking up the "DO"...typos are okay, but not for two letters

 

[nitecap]

drop it like its hot

 

[guetzow]

There is quite a bit of noise in our community right now concerning this very issue. Traditionally, however, the vignette of a PA student was MUCH DIFFERENT. Say, early 30's with an Average of 5-6 years clinical experience (RT, PT, RN, OT, Military corpsman, etc). This is sadly, no longer the case.

 

[hospPA]

I conclude that if the new grad NP and PA got for the most part the same education at their respective programs, which for the most part they do. That upon graduation the NP especially if they have Critical care experience is a far more effective practitioner. This statement of course does not account for PA's that maybe do have more clinical experience upon entering PA school.

Now give the PA a few years of clinical experience working and actualy getting more than the 1.5 or so yrs of clical experience that they receive in school and I have no doubt that the PA with be just as effective as any NP out there. My 2 cents.

As to your first paragraph, what do you think of this? Take the same exact BSN and send them to PA school vs. sending them to NP school. Who would be better at providing medical care? I say the PA. I guess I am one of those BSN to PA folks, so am a bit jaded. I maintain that the basic science, medical didactic, and clinical rotations are more rigorous. Showing up with no experience is a problem, one that is shared by many of my colleagues. Most likely, a highly experienced RN going through NP school would hit the ground running faster than the PA graduate with no previous experience. I maintain tha the same experienced applicant would be better served with PA training. I DO NOT think the training can be compared. Take a look at the course catalogs at Duke, Iowa, or any other top rated university that has both programs you choose. You will see the discrepancy.

As to paragraph 2, I see the exact opposite in my current practive. I work in a place that has hundreds of NP's and PA's, most starting as new grads. The new grad PA's seem to hit the ground running faster, from what I have seen. I really think that this is because of the intensity of the training. My research of NP training has shown me it is a bit "soft". Many of my NP collegues share this view. The DNP movement is attempting to help this problem, although I think they are treading on thin ice calling it a doctorate and wanting full independence. That will be met with fierce AMA opposition.

Pat

 

[zenman]

As to your first paragraph, what do you think of this? Take the same exact BSN and send them to PA school vs. sending them to NP school. Who would be better at providing medical care? I say the PA.
Pat

The PA might be better at providing "medical care" which is exactly why I'll be starting NP school this Fall. At UAB, I'll be taking some electives such as Spirituality in Healthcare, Herbals and Nutritional Supplements, and Complementary Therapies and Integrative Health Care, for example. This is where the medicine of the 21st century is heading so why waste my time in PA school? We each have our own path to follow.

 

[hospPA]

The PA might be better at providing "medical care" which is exactly why I'll be starting NP school this Fall. At UAB, I'll be taking some electives such as Spirituality in Healthcare, Herbals and Nutritional Supplements, and Complementary Therapies and Integrative Health Care, for example. This is where the medicine of the 21st century is heading so why waste my time in PA school? We each have our own path to follow.

Great. Maybe you can get some randomized, double blind, controlled studies going on some of that stuff. I would LOVE to use other things then our current medications if they were PROVEN to work. I will stick with EBM for now, thanks.

Good luck in your pursuit,

Pat

P.S. The above type classes during my RN training is one of the reasons I went to PA school instead of NP school. To each his/her own.

 

[hospPA]

Wow, 47-50 credits in 18 months for acute care adult NP. That seems like a pretty quick track to take care of acutely ill patients. I hope all the applicants to that program have significant ICU RN experience. Like 2 years or more.
Anyway, with all that spiritual stuff you are likely doing the PC track, right?

Pat

 

[zenman]

Great. Maybe you can get some randomized, double blind, controlled studies going on some of that stuff. I would LOVE to use other things then our current medications if they were PROVEN to work. I will stick with EBM for now, thanks.

EBM is a misnomer when you consider that randomized, double blind, controlled studies mean nothing until you can measure "consciousness."

 

[zenman]

Wow, 47-50 credits in 18 months for acute care adult NP. That seems like a pretty quick track to take care of acutely ill patients. I hope all the applicants to that program have significant ICU RN experience. Like 2 years or more.
Anyway, with all that spiritual stuff you are likely doing the PC track, right?

Pat

Nope, doing the FNP post-masters track, although I did consider the pc track, since oncology death rates seem no better now than in the 50s. Since I keep up with the trends, particularly in complementary medicine, I should be right up there with 21st century medicine. What are you going to be doing?

 

[hospPA]

Trends like echinacea doesn't work and the like

Seriously, I realize complimetary medicine has a place, but you also need to know regular medicine as well, so you don't let someone die when there is a proven medicinal remedy to their problem.

Pat

 

[guetzow]

For the Average URI, Antihistamines, Expectorants, Mucolytics, Antipyretics, and analgesics aren't cures either, simply symptomatic treatment. If you know antibiotics aren't going to cure the majority of URIs, why not embrace herbals(The afforementioned, Garlic, etc.) as supplements?

 

[zenman]

Trends like echinacea doesn't work and the like

Seriously, I realize complimetary medicine has a place, but you also need to know regular medicine as well, so you don't let someone die when there is a proven medicinal remedy to their problem.

Pat

I never did think Echinacea worked. I agree... both systems compliment each other. However don't fall into the "dog chasing his tail syndrome" by chasing symptoms...and then trying to medicate the symptoms caused by the original remedy...and so on.

 

[Carolina Girl]

The PA might be better at providing "medical care" which is exactly why I'll be starting NP school this Fall. At UAB, I'll be taking some electives such as Spirituality in Healthcare, Herbals and Nutritional Supplements, and Complementary Therapies and Integrative Health Care, for example. This is where the medicine of the 21st century is heading so why waste my time in PA school? We each have our own path to follow.

For someone whose screen name is "ZENman" you seem to be very preoccupied with labels.

Are you trying to be antagonistic? Or are you truly myopic enough to believe that holistic care and allopathic education are mutually exclusive? The care an individual provides cannot be predicted by the letters following a name. If that were the case, then every doctor and PA would be nothing more than scientific automatons, and every nurse would be a model of compassion. Maybe that's how things are in your world, but in mine people's care has more to do with their individual character and less with their educational background.

We learn mostly clinical medicine at my school, but we also learn a mind/body/spirit approach, which is assessed in every practical by our manner, listening & general patient interaction. We have also learned about supplements & alternative forms of medicine. I find it hard to believe that this program is unique from every other allopathic institution in the nation. But even those who lack this preparation can choose to seek out additional education, and implement it as is appropriate in their practice setting. Just as you can choose to take any elective you want, and that will not guarantee that you are any better an NP than if you didn't take the courses. Just as attending an NP program does not guarantte that you wll be a better practitioner than someone who attends PA school.

Follow whatever path suits you - but consider dropping the stereotypes. Or changing your screen name to something that suits you. Insults and antagonism, spouting from dualistic attachments to labels, is not Zen at all.

 

[zenman]

For someone whose screen name is "ZENman" you seem to be very preoccupied with labels.

Huh, are you totally confused..or mixing me up with someone else?????? I'm very much against labels, even "diagnostic labels." Labels are just semantic tools that do not tell you anything about the cause or the source of your symptoms. Once a diagnosis is given, the practitioners' and patients' thought process usually stops. They don't have to ask themselves "why does this (or why do I ) have this at this particular time. And now that you have a label, the insurance company will reimburse you for your time. Now that you have a diagnosis, you must follow a "cookbook" approach to treatment...am I correct? Now, do you see where you must be confusing me with someone else.

Are you trying to be antagonistic? Or are you truly myopic enough to believe that holistic care and allopathic education are mutually exclusive?

You're definitely mixing me up with someone else as I believe in "complementary medicine." Allopathic practitioners have been described as "mechanics" and Holistic practitioners as "gardners." Together they work much better. I'm not antagonistic but do not shy away from providing anyone with an educational moment when I can, particularly so they don't go around embarassing themselves in public. But, for the most most I don't see much holistic practice in allopathic medicine...there are a few centers providing training now, but it's still difficult to practice in todays actual practice setting.

Maybe that's how things are in your world, but in mine people's care has more to do with their individual character and less with their educational background.

Well, yes of course

Follow whatever path suits you - but consider dropping the stereotypes. Or changing your screen name to something that suits you. Insults and antagonism, spouting from dualistic attachments to labels, is not Zen at all.

Go back and read my posts till you understand my responses to those who are as you describe...and go study a zen art...as I have, till you understand that also. I know some Zen monks that can "slap" some sense into you.

 

[guetzow]

More like, Zenwannabe.

 

[oldManDO2009]

people lie zen give NP and medicine a bad name - I gonna assume that this guy will bad mouth traditional medicine in favor of "holistic" medicine and that these "herbs" will cure everything that the mechanic will throw at you (those corporate money mongers) but we do it naturally. Until the patient gets really sick and shows up in my ER! This is quackery at its worst - if you had solid scientific research to back such claims (double blind studies and not some nut on a paid infomercial) than this would be more accepted! I think "holistic" or integrative medicine has its place but as part of the whole approach and not some separate treatment that conflicts with more accepted practices of medicine.

I will probably get flamed for my rant but this herb crap really hits a sore spot!

 

[guetzow]

You go, girl!

 

[hospPA]

This is quackery at its worst - if you had solid scientific research to back such claims (double blind studies and not some nut on a paid infomercial) than this would be more accepted! I think "holistic" or integrative medicine has its place but as part of the whole approach and not some separate treatment that conflicts with more accepted practices of medicine.

I will probably get flamed for my rant but this herb crap really hits a sore spot!

I agree with you!

Pat

 

[zenman]

More like, Zenwannabe.

Well, I am a Zen Shiatsu therapist! Actually, a very low key and mellow guy, calm in the midst of total chaos, probably as a result of being an Army medic, working Level I trauma center, Helicopter Flight Nurse, and of course all that zen practice.