Different admittance processes

[Curioso06]

---

Members don't see this ad.

From what I can understand, there are at least two common ways that admissions decisions are made after the interview. In one way, the adcom vote on a candidate and the decision is made by the group, whether to accept, reject, or waitlist.

In the other way, the adcom vote and generate a numerical score, which is part of the candidate's portfolio. All of this information is then given to the dean of admission, who ultimately makes the decision to accept, reject, or waitlist. Presumably, the dean generally takes the advice of the adcom, unless there's some quota, etc that need to be addressed. For example, if a class is in need or has too many from a certain demographic, the dean will take this as well as the adcom's opinions into consideration prior to a decision.

I'd imagine there's probably some sort of hybrids between these models, even within an individual school. For example, depending on the timing of the cycle (normal times vs. very late in the cycle, etc.).

My question is, what are the pros and cons of each method and what are the rationale of implementing each? Has anyone else wondered about this process?

 

[Med Ed]

From what I can understand, there are at least two common ways that admissions decisions are made after the interview. In one way, the adcom vote on a candidate and the decision is made by the group, whether to accept, reject, or waitlist.

In the other way, the adcom vote and generate a numerical score, which is part of the candidate's portfolio. All of this information is then given to the dean of admission, who ultimately makes the decision to accept, reject, or waitlist. Presumably, the dean generally takes the advice of the adcom, unless there's some quota, etc that need to be addressed. For example, if a class is in need or has too many from a certain demographic, the dean will take this as well as the adcom's opinions into consideration prior to a decision.

I'd imagine there's probably some sort of hybrids between these models, even within an individual school. For example, depending on the timing of the cycle (normal times vs. very late in the cycle, etc.).

My question is, what are the pros and cons of each method and what are the rationale of implementing each? Has anyone else wondered about this process?

I do not have a comprehensive understanding of how every allopathic admission committee works (not even close!), but to my knowledge the second option you describe is only employed by some schools to deal with the wait list, not to make primary decisions. LCME standard 10.2 states " The final responsibility for accepting students to a medical school rests with a formally constituted admission committee." If the dean is being entrusted to handle the wait list, be it ranked or unranked, that abdication should require a formal vote by the committee.

That said, up until recently some schools did cling to old-school, dean-controlled processes, although they have been getting picked off (or at least pushed underground). Allegedly Baylor got hit over this, which contributed to it being hit with probation a couple of years ago.

The rationale for abdicating this authority is simple: it makes everyone's life easier, assuming the committee trusts the dean. At the end of the cycle the wrangling ends, the committee exits, and the class gets filled to general satisfaction. Many places have gone to a ranked wait list, so the committee's voice is still apparent without being utterly inflexible. The messiest system would be having the committee sit down with an unranked wait list at the end of the cycle to parse through it. The thought of that just gave me a shudder.

 

[Curioso06]

That is far too simplistic a breakdown of the many steps in this process that misses the nuances at each point, the interplay of small group dynamics across the personalities involved, the collective mindset of the admissions staff/committee, and the overall culture of the school.

I'm not sure what you mean by this post, but I suspect we're talking about different things here. I'm talking about the bigger picture process, while it seems like you're talking about the details. I didn't doubt the complexity of the process and the different aspects that come into play for a final decision. Instead, I'm basically asking about two methods that are employed in admissions (although I acknowledge that more variations can exist)

 

[Curioso06]

I do not have a comprehensive understanding of how every allopathic admission committee works (not even close!), but to my knowledge the second option you describe is only employed by some schools to deal with the wait list, not to make primary decisions. LCME standard 10.2 states " The final responsibility for accepting students to a medical school rests with a formally constituted admission committee." If the dean is being entrusted to handle the wait list, be it ranked or unranked, that abdication should require a formal vote by the committee.

That said, up until recently some schools did cling to old-school, dean-controlled processes, although they have been getting picked off (or at least pushed underground). Allegedly Baylor got hit over this, which contributed to it being hit with probation a couple of years ago.

The rationale for abdicating this authority is simple: it makes everyone's life easier, assuming the committee trusts the dean. At the end of the cycle the wrangling ends, the committee exits, and the class gets filled to general satisfaction. Many places have gone to a ranked wait list, so the committee's voice is still apparent without being utterly inflexible. The messiest system would be having the committee sit down with an unranked wait list at the end of the cycle to parse through it. The thought of that just gave me a shudder.

I would have figured that it's typically the adcom that makes the final decision. However, I did speak with one adcom member that claimed the second method that I described in my original post to be the one employed at that particular school. I agree that the adcom would need to trust the dean but I would imagine that in order for them to do so, the dean would have to strongly justify his/her decisions in case it's not aligned with the adcom. I can see the value in having a dean with that much oversight because it would help to have one person accountable for ensuring a diverse and balanced class. I suppose, however, that the waitlist would probably be a useful tool to accomplish this. Do you suspect that many or most schools abdicate their waitlist admits decisions to the dean? I'd imagine this is usually the case, because deliberation of an entire adcom would probably be so cumbersome. By the way, aren't most waitlists ranked? At least quasi ranked? Wouldn't even a quasi ranked waitlist constructed by the Adcom still be weighing the opinions of the Adcom even if the Dean makes the final decision?

 

[Curioso06]

I get what you're saying and it makes sense. Basically, from what I gather, even if a school claims to abide by some process or rules, at the end of the day, it's implemented by people, and there's always the human element at people.

What I am trying to say that how applicants become candidates is far more complex and that the description of your two methods makes it seem too clear cut. It really isnt.



in my experience, this is not the case. most applications through out the process are sorted into what I still refer to "piles" (as in piles of folders). This is true for waitlist as well. The issue with waitlist is the very fluid movement that happens during May and June as slots open up from those applicants who have multiple acceptances. At most schools, there is a core group, which may include admissions director, admissions dean, adcom members, that are looking thru the top rated pile as slots open up. All these applicants have been essentially accepted previously by the adcom and are now being scoured again for any number of reasons to be offered a waitlist slot.

Is the admissions director looking at the daily acceptance update to see the next candidate in the pile has 8 acceptances and is unlikely to take theirs?
Did most recent acceptee who turned down affect the acceptee class gender, diversity, research background, future medical interests, etc?
Are there some in the pile who had extremely forceful advocate at the last adcom meeting that strongly thought this applicant should have been accepted?
Is there a round of phone calls or informal sub adcom group that makes the decision or offers the dean recommendations?

My point to all this, it is a very fluid time and the process is not as well defined as one may think

Just curious, can you clarify what you mean by the bolded quote above? Do you mean some applicants are waitlisted but are "essentially accepted"? If that's the case, why wouldn't they be accepted outright?

 

[Med Ed]

I can see the value in having a dean with that much oversight because it would help to have one person accountable for ensuring a diverse and balanced class.

Singular accountability is one way to look at it, but another is that dean-centered models give one person an extraordinary amount of power in deciding who becomes a physician. The LCME is pretty clear that it does not like such concentrations of influence, as they are the most susceptible to whim and corruption. In the end it comes down to balancing responsibility (more people involved) with efficiency (fewer people involved). I am not aware of any survey that details how various schools accomplish this.

 

[Goro]

At my school, the wily old Dean of Admissions is simply concerned in getting bodies into seats, period. The final decision rests with our Dean, who may or may not overrule the Adcom at times. Usually the Dean follows the advice of the Adcom. So we're more like a modified version two in your schemes.

The pros are that the schools have classes that are molded into the vision that the Dean wants. The cons are he didn't interview them, we did, and we have to teach them.

When it comes to picking people off the waitlist, the Dean does the picking, usualy because he has a set mandate for candidates.

From what I can understand, there are at least two common ways that admissions decisions are made after the interview. In one way, the adcom vote on a candidate and the decision is made by the group, whether to accept, reject, or waitlist.

In the other way, the adcom vote and generate a numerical score, which is part of the candidate's portfolio. All of this information is then given to the dean of admission, who ultimately makes the decision to accept, reject, or waitlist. Presumably, the dean generally takes the advice of the adcom, unless there's some quota, etc that need to be addressed. For example, if a class is in need or has too many from a certain demographic, the dean will take this as well as the adcom's opinions into consideration prior to a decision.

I'd imagine there's probably some sort of hybrids between these models, even within an individual school. For example, depending on the timing of the cycle (normal times vs. very late in the cycle, etc.).

My question is, what are the pros and cons of each method and what are the rationale of implementing each? Has anyone else wondered about this process?

 

[Curioso06]

Because there is a finite amount of seats. for example, there are 100 seats in the first year class. A school may have 5000 applications which you whittle down to 800 interviews. Of that 400 get cut outright. Perhaps history says you usually get 30 people who decline acceptance. So you meet, argue, discuss and offer whittle down to a pile of 200. The first 130 get outright acceptance. You might give waitlist to the next 50-70 cause you have an obligation to fill every seat. They have passed the adcom but now have to wait for a seat to open. This year 40 people decline acceptance. Then you start offering waitlist spots but so does every other school. Some will not take it, some will, some have multiple acceptance so they get passed over.

So basically, these waitlisted candidates are deemed to be acceptable by the adcom, although they are still ranked a little lower than the candidates who were already accepted. If history plays out, those very top waitlisted candidates will be accepted.

 

[Med Ed]

At my school, the wily old Dean of Admissions is simply concerned in getting bodies into seats, period. The final decision rests with our Dean, who may or may not overrule the Adcom at times.

That would not fly here. Does COCA have stipulations regarding admissions or is it free wheeling?

 

[gyngyn]

The final decision rests with our Dean, who may or may not overrule the Adcom at times. Usually the Dean follows the advice of the Adcom. So we're more like a modified version two in your schemes.

When it comes to picking people off the waitlist, the Dean does the picking, usualy because he has a set mandate for candidates.

LCME would do the equivalent of dropping the ban hammer for this!

 

[p0gono]

LCME would do the equivalent of dropping the ban hammer for this!

Careful, Goro COM!

 

[Goro]

I'm not familiar with COCA's rules on this.

That would not fly here. Does COCA have stipulations regarding admissions or is it free wheeling?

I am SO jealous! A DO colleague of mine told me that at another COM, the faculty on the Adcom got so pissed at the Dean for overruling them, that they threatened to resign en masse from the Adcom. He left them alone after that.

LCME would do the equivalent of dropping the ban hammer for this!

 

[p0gono]

I'm not familiar with COCA's rules on this.


I am SO jealous! A DO colleague of mine told me that at another COM, the faculty on the Adcom got so pissed at the Dean for overruling them, that they threatened to resign en masse from the Adcom. He left them alone after that.

Super curious about the committee's role at your school - you said the Dean has final say for admittance and also makes decisions on interview invitations? Does the committee mainly just do the interviewing then?

 

[Goro]

The Admissions dean pics the interviewees; we don't have Adcom screeners.

the Adcom interviews and makes recommendations as to who to accept, waitlist and reject.

The Dean (this Big Guy) has the final say.

Now, 90-95% of the time, the Dean agrees with the adcom. But there are times where he'll overrule the committee. I can't get into specifics, but it has to do with parameters that the dean likes.

Super curious about the committee's role at your school - you said the Dean has final say for admittance and also makes decisions on interview invitations? Does the committee mainly just do the interviewing then?

 

[olive24]

Some will not take it, some will, some have multiple acceptance so they get passed over.

So with the quote above, are you saying that people with multiple acceptances at other schools are not preferred when the adcom is picking people from the waitlist?

For instance, I have 3 acceptances, but a waitlist at my top choice. All other things about our applications being relatively equal, would I have less of a chance than someone else who has only one other acceptance?

 

[gyngyn]

The Admissions dean pics the interviewees; we don't have Adcom screeners.

the Adcom interviews and makes recommendations as to who to accept, waitlist and reject.

The Dean (this Big Guy) has the final say.

Now, 90-95% of the time, the Dean agrees with the adcom. But there are times where he'll overrule the committee. I can't get into specifics, but it has to do with parameters that the dean likes.

The LCME has a specific prohibition to the Dean being in charge of admissions:
"FINAL AUTHORITY OF ADMISSION COMMITTEE. The final responsibility for
accepting students to a medical school rests with a formally constituted admission committee."

 

[abluecrab]

Searched but couldn't find it: when is it reported to schools where one has been accepted?

 

[gyngyn]

Searched but couldn't find it: when is it reported to schools where one has been accepted?

Schools where you have been waitlisted can see where you are accepted on March 15th.

 

[mdconcern]

Schools where you have been waitlisted can see where you are accepted on March 15th.

 

[gyngyn]

Can schools see where you are wait listed as well? Also, I am under the impression that MD schools only see MD info and DO schools only see DO info. Is that true?
Last question? If a school sees that you are not accepted anywhere else, would they look favorably upon that? What about if they see that you are on the WL at 3 schools?
Thank you for your reply.

No school can see where you applied or are waitlisted.
AMCAS/TMDSAS schools that have waitlisted you can see where you have been accepted on April 1st this year.
No one has access to the DO schools where you have been accepted (or waitlisted).

If there is a difference in the way schools view applicants with other acceptances vs no acceptances, I am not aware of it. I can say that if you are accepted to a much better school, a lesser school may not want to invest the time for you consider and reject them.

 

[longtimelurker2015]

No school can see where you applied or are waitlisted.
AMCAS/TMDSAS schools that have waitlisted you can see where you have been accepted on April 1st this year.
No one has access to the DO schools where you have been accepted (or waitlisted).

If there is a difference in the way schools view applicants with other acceptances vs no acceptances, I am not aware of it. I can say that if you are accepted to a much better school, a lesser school may not want to invest the time for you consider and reject them.

@gyngyn, you wrote earlier "Schools where you have been waitlisted can see where you are accepted on March 15th." and just here you wrote "AMCAS/TMDSAS schools that have waitlisted you can see where you have been accepted on April 1st this year."

Just wondering which one is it?

 

[gyngyn]

@gyngyn, you wrote earlier "Schools where you have been waitlisted can see where you are accepted on March 15th." and just here you wrote "AMCAS/TMDSAS schools that have waitlisted you can see where you have been accepted on April 1st this year."

Just wondering which one is it?

April 1st this year.
I think the Ides of March is preferable to April fool's but AMCAS differed this year...

 

[Goro]

As my Jewish friends would say "OY!!!!!!"

Et tu, Brute

On even a more trivial note , a few weeks ago I had to explain to someone the expression isn't "crossing the Rubik's Cube" but "crossing the Rubicon"

 

[Curioso06]

April 1st this year.
I think the Ides of March is preferable to April fool's but AMCAS differed this year...

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following. The deadline for schools to extend the number of acceptance offers equal to their expected class size has previously been March 15th. Coincidentally, the day on which schools that have WL'd a candidate can see which other schools have accepted that candidate was March 15th. Are they supposed to be the same day? If so, does that mean that schools now have until April 1st to extend offers equal to their class size?

 

[gyngyn]

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of the following. The deadline for schools to extend the number of acceptance offers equal to their expected class size has previously been March 15th. Coincidentally, the day on which schools that have WL'd a candidate can see which other schools have accepted that candidate was March 15th. Are they supposed to be the same day? If so, does that mean that schools now have until April 1st to extend offers equal to their class size?

The date by which an equivalent number of acceptances as the class size was still March 15th this year.
The acceptances of the waitlisted will be seen on April 1st, however.

The admonition regarding offers is mostly symbolic however, as the actual number needed to fill the class is likely to be at least twice the class size, even at very competitive schools.

 

[Curioso06]

The date by which an equivalent number of acceptances as the class size was still March 15th this year.
The acceptances of the waitlisted will be seen on April 1st, however.

The admonition regarding offers is mostly symbolic however, as the actual number needed to fill the class is likely to be at least twice the class size, even at very competitive schools.

Do you happened to know why they pushed the date back to April 1st this year? When the acceptance report was released on March 15th, did schools use this information to extend acceptance offers typically? If so, can we expect something similar after April 1st?

 

[mdconcern]

.

 

[Curioso06]

The date by which an equivalent number of acceptances as the class size was still March 15th this year.
The acceptances of the waitlisted will be seen on April 1st, however.

The admonition regarding offers is mostly symbolic however, as the actual number needed to fill the class is likely to be at least twice the class size, even at very competitive schools.

It occurred to me that the national acceptance report is scheduled to be released on April 1st, as it had been in previous years. Does that basically mean that the release of the acceptance report for WL'd candidates (usually made available on March 15th) will be released at the same time as the national acceptance report. In other words, the WL'd acceptance report has basically been made non-existent this year, since the national acceptance report provides this same information and more. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this, thanks

 

[Curioso06]

There was never a formal WL report, it has been this semi thing for the past few years as the AAMC and the schools have tried to work out if WL should be a required reported status like acceptance or matriculation. Some school report this and some dont. The implications to the schools is how "deep" do they then do this formal WL? How many people? Does it need to be a standard percentage of class? And how, in the messy post 4/30 WL frenzy, is this now going to require full reporting? If so how? If I call and offer a WL spot to 5 people who all turn it down, do I now need to report 5 acceptances? This is why I think it will not become a required function of schools to report to AAMC.

I think the NAR doesnt come out until 4/30. It is not supposed to be available to schools to render acceptance decisions

I was always under the impression that in this scenario, the school would have to report 5 acceptance offers to AAMC. I'm surprised that this is open to interpretation. Doesn't this mean that acceptance percentages for each school are rather unreliable?

Also, I thought the national acceptance report was released on April 1st? I couldn't find this info from the AAMC site but according to Colorado SOM, that was the case last year: http://www.colorado.edu/advising/20...ic-rules-students-accepted-medical-schools-md