Difficulty of PharmD programs to Dental

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PHARMD_Maybe?

PHARMD_Maybe?

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I am just curious to those of you who are currently in a PharmD program exactly how hard it is? I have a ~3.75 science GPA and I have been told that a PharmD program is harder to complete than a DMD/DDS program. However, I find this hard to believe since the class schedules for PharmD programs average 17 credits a semester while Dental schools are in the range of the low to upper 20's in credit hours. Not to mention the pre-clinics and class 8:00 to 5:00 everyday. I would appreciate anybody's ideas on the question asked. Thanks!
 
I can't speak to the difficulty of completing a dental program. I can say that having gotten my BS in biology, carrying 17 credits in pharmacy school today is way more work than carrying any 17 undergraduate credits. For me the hardest things are having multiple small credit courses and getting enough sleep. Often, less credit is granted for courses than would be warranted by out of class study time. I think at my school this has been done so that we get the same content without having to pay extra course load fees. Here is my 18 credit schedule for Autumn Quarter.

MEDCH 402 3.0 cr - MedChem
MEDCH 420 2.0 cr - Alt/Comp Meds (pass/fail elective)
PHARM 403 1.0 cr - Chemical Dependancy Concepts (pass/fail)
PHARM 412 3.0 cr - OTC Drugs
PHARM 445 1.0 cr - Community Based Programs (pass/fail elective)
PHARM 543 4.0 cr - Pharmacy Law
PHCOL 401 4.0 cr - General Pharmacology I

The community based programs class is held for 3 days straight prior to fall quarter. So, effectively this is a 17 credit schedule. I might also take a 1 credit nutrition elective that is being offered this fall. Hopefully you can see why this kind of a schedule can be challenging.

I also work one day a week, spend a minimum of 3 hours communting each school day, am involved in extracurricular activities, and am married.
 
PHARMD_Maybe? said:
I am just curious to those of you who are currently in a PharmD program exactly how hard it is? I have a ~3.75 science GPA and I have been told that a PharmD program is harder to complete than a DMD/DDS program. However, I find this hard to believe since the class schedules for PharmD programs average 17 credits a semester while Dental schools are in the range of the low to upper 20's in credit hours. Not to mention the pre-clinics and class 8:00 to 5:00 everyday. I would appreciate anybody's ideas on the question asked. Thanks!
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If this tells you anything, many of the core science classes at the University
of Iowa are taken jointly by medical/dentistry/pharmacy students concurrently with their respective specialty coursework. If pharmacy is not the most challenging UNDERGRADUATE degree you can study, it is in the top five
 
bananaface said:
I don't understand why you are talking about pharmacy in terms of the top 5 most difficult undergraduate degrees, baggy. Any prospective student will be looking at the Pharm.D. programs. 😕 Could you please clarify what you mean by that part of the post?
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The Pharm D program is now the entry level degree into pharmacy. It is no
longer a two year post graduate program as it was when I went to school.
It is not [yet] a requirement that an applicant have an undergraduate degree
for acceptance into the professional program as it is to work for your J.D. or an M.D.

I admit to being biased in favor of pharmacy as the most difficult undergraduate degree, but then I do not have experience with physics or engineering. I can say that fellow students who dropped out of the pharmacy program in favor of undergraduate majors such as biochemistry were suprised at how much lower the stress level was in those programs
 
baggywrinkle said:
The Pharm D program is now the entry level degree into pharmacy. It is no
longer a two year post graduate program as it was when I went to school.
It is not [yet] a requirement that an applicant have an undergraduate degree
for acceptance into the professional program as it is to work for your J.D. or an M.D.

I admit to being biased in favor of pharmacy as the most difficult undergraduate degree, but then I do not have experience with physics or engineering. I can say that fellow students who dropped out of the pharmacy program in favor of undergraduate majors such as biochemistry were suprised at how much lower the stress level was in those programs
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An MD program doesn't require a degree, it's just highly unlikely that someone will get accepted without one. I believe they require a minimum of 90 credits. I'm pretty sure dental schools also don't require degrees, but have a high minimum for credits required.
 
I do not consider myself to be an undergraduate, since I already have an undergraduate degree and am enrolled in what is classified as a professional degree program by my school. My tuition is twice that of an undergraduate student. Plus, I spent the past year telling one of my classmates to stop calling our class "froshies", which has to count for something. 😀 I think every school classifies their pharmacy students differently, though. We should probably address that issue sometime and try to standardize the classification.
 
bananaface said:
I do not consider myself to be an undergraduate, since I already have an undergraduate degree and am enrolled in what is classified as a professional degree program by my school. My tuition is twice that of an undergraduate student. Plus, I spent the past year telling one of my classmates to stop calling our class "froshies", which has to count for something. 😀 I think every school classifies their pharmacy students differently, though. We should probably address that issue sometime and try to standardize the classification.
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Here in lies the rub. I do have an undergraduate professional pharmacy degree. B.S. Pharmacy. The profession has stratified into two layers such that
a 24 year old Pharm D graduate would have a better shot at that nice clinic position with Virginia Mason than I would with my antiquated BS. For me acquiring the Pharm D **IS** post graduate training over and above the five year program already endured for a total of seven years schooling. One year short of med school. No extra money for the investment in time btw, like one could hope for pursuing a masters in engineering
 
Today students attend a minimum of 6 years of college for their Pharm.D. At WSU and UW, there are 2.5 years worth of prereq's so it is realistically takes a minimum of 6.5 years for us to get an entry-level Pharm.D. in WA. Some people with the Bachelor's degree in pharmacy did finish it 4 years flat. They can spend 2 years in school part-time and get their Pharm.D. They would come out with the same as current students as a Pharm.D, RPh. and have spent roughly the same amount of time in school as today's graduates (actually slightly less), with the same ratio of pharmacy to non-pharmacy study.

Part of the problem with getting the job at Virginia Mason without a Pharm.D. is that many pharmacy schools made students choose and focus on a specialty during the bachelor's degree program. Those who work the in hospital setting now may have a shot at a specialist position. Those in retail not only have a hard time getting a position as a clinical specialist, but may indeed have difficulty even getting their foot in the door to work in an inpatient pharmacy setting. The current Pharm.D. programs expose students to multiple practice settings and give them the advantage of being able to choose from a larger variety of positions.

Basic clinical positions don't pay more and they tend to require a Pharm.D is because so many people want them. Hardly any other hospital jobs let you work the 9-5 Mon-Fri type schedule. Pharmacists usually get paid more for clinical positions requiring a residency, though.

I'll have endured 8.5 years of college when I graduate with my Pharm.D and am willing to leave that clinical position open for you, if that makes you feel any better, baggy. 🙂
 
bananaface said:
Some people with the Bachelor's degree in pharmacy did finish it 4 years flat. They can spend 2 years in school part-time and get their Pharm.D. They would come out with the same as current students as a Pharm.D, RPh. and have spent roughly the same amount of time in school as today's graduates (actually slightly less), with the same ratio of pharmacy to non-pharmacy study.
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I actually think the B.S. in Pharm was 5 years, right baggy? 🙂
 
sweetcalie08 said:
I actually think the B.S. in Pharm was 5 years, right baggy? 🙂
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It took some of us six years. Fail one critical class and you are screwed for a year.

One pre-year and four professional years.

At University of Iowa, finishing early was not an option because of the sequenced coursework. Pharmaceutics 1 was ONLY offered in the fall. Pharmaceutics 2 was ONLY offered in the spring.
 
Well, I guess I do know a couple pharmacists who took 6 years to get their B.S. in Pharmacy. But, I was just trying to say that it was not 4 years...which is what bananaface said. UNLESS she meant a 4-year professional track with that one year pre-pharm. Oh well, nothing critical here.
 
A Pharm.D. can be completed by those with a bachelor's with one year of full time study at some schools. If you went that route, you would have spent a comparable amount of time in school to those graduating from today's 4 year Pharm. D programs who entered with prereq's only. (ie: 6 years)

I'm going to lump the people who took 6 years to get their BS in with those who take and extra year to complete the 4 year Pharm.D. program, and call it good.

I always thought that one used to be able to get a BA in pharmacy in 4 years or a BS in 5 years, and that most ppl went for the shorter program. Maybe I was mistaken. 😕
 
bananaface said:
A Pharm.D. can be completed by those with a bachelor's with one year of full time study at some schools. If you went that route, you would have spent a comparable amount of time in school to those graduating from today's 4 year Pharm. D programs who entered with prereq's only. (ie: 6 years)

I'm going to lump the people who took 6 years to get their BS in with those who take and extra year to complete the 4 year Pharm.D. program, and call it good.

I always thought that one used to be able to get a BA in pharmacy in 4 years or a BS in 5 years, and that most ppl went for the shorter program. Maybe I was mistaken. 😕
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A tech I worked with went to pharmacy school in Ohio where they apparently
still offer the B.S. degree for those interested in retail pharmacy along side their Pharm D program.

Less clinical stuff I imagine. A second class degree. that pays the same or better money. Truth is, you could teach everything one needs to survive in retail with a concentrated two year A.A. degree. Ever see the military training manuals for pharmacy tech? They would challenge most pharmacists.

The return on investment just does not tally to spend the money and formally go back to school. Having said that, it looks like I am going back to pharmacy
school anyway. My wife, a pharmacy technician, is going. When she talks about it she says **WE** are going to school
It will be fun to read her class notes, pick and choose, refresh my skills, and not have to take the exams 😀

As far as Virginia Mason goes, one would think that 15 years of hospital/clinical experience would count for something. It is less true today than it was in the past
 
bananaface said:
Is she going back this fall? Is she getting her Pharm.D?

Harborview has a clinical pharmacist spot and does not have a Pharm.D. requirement listed. http://medical.mcis.washington.edu/medical/amc_includes/amc_job_listings.asp
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Thank you for the heads up. I will check them out.

She is starting from square one at Pierce Community College this fall. At this early stage she is retail all the way. Who knows what will change when she gets in the thick of it. I will encourage her to go for the Pharm D to help her
keep her options open.
 
I'm from Ohio and there are no pharmacy schools that offer a BS in Pharmacy. Several schools offer the BSPS (Bachelor of Science in Pharmaceutical Sciences) for people who want to work in R&D labs or for drug companies as sales reps. These programs do not allow one to sit for Boards or work as a Pharmacist. The only way to do that in Ohio is to get the PharmD degree at one of our 4 pharmacy schools. Just clearing that up. It's been this way for more than a few years now.
 
PHARMD_Maybe? said:
I am just curious to those of you who are currently in a PharmD program exactly how hard it is? I have a ~3.75 science GPA and I have been told that a PharmD program is harder to complete than a DMD/DDS program. However, I find this hard to believe since the class schedules for PharmD programs average 17 credits a semester while Dental schools are in the range of the low to upper 20's in credit hours. Not to mention the pre-clinics and class 8:00 to 5:00 everyday. I would appreciate anybody's ideas on the question asked. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Fall 2003
DENF 1501 General Histology
DENF 1502 Gross Anatomy
DENF 1521 Biochemistry
DENF 1541 Physiology I
DENF 1601 Dental Anatomy I
DEPF 1602 Dental Anatomy Lab I
DENF 1621 Ethics in Dentistry
DENF 1651 Foundationial Skills for Clinic I
DENF 1934 Dent Public Health I: Introduction to Dental Prevention
IRT 1991 Information Resources Training

Spring Semester 2004
DENS 1504 Neurosciences
DENS 1507 Integrated Biologic Sciences
DENS 1542 Physiology II
DENS 1551 Microbiology and Immunology
DEPS 1603 Dental Anatomy Lab II
DENS 1604 Dental Anatomy II
DEPS 1614 Operative Dentistry I
DENS 1652 Foundational Skills for Clinic II
DENS 1671 Biomaterials I: Direct Restorative Materials
DEPS 1901 Prosthodontics I: Basic Occlusal Concepts
DENS 1931 Basic and Applied Nutrition
Compentency Document

Our dental school is pretty rough 👎 First yr stuff I posted btw
 
OSURxgirl said:
I'm from Ohio and there are no pharmacy schools that offer a BS in Pharmacy. Several schools offer the BSPS (Bachelor of Science in Pharmaceutical Sciences) for people who want to work in R&D labs or for drug companies as sales reps. These programs do not allow one to sit for Boards or work as a Pharmacist. The only way to do that in Ohio is to get the PharmD degree at one of our 4 pharmacy schools. Just clearing that up. It's been this way for more than a few years now.
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She was able to graduate earlier because of her choice. All she wanted was to return to Florida and take over my Walgreens night shift.

More than a few years ehh. Suddenly I feel really REALLY old...
 
I believe that it is no longer possible to obtain a BS in pharmacy at any institution in the country.

I'd say most folks in a professional program think their program is tough. Relative "hardness" is probably school and student related morerso that simple reduction to what field of study you are in (i.e. medical v/s dental v/s Rx). I'm content to say that it's really comparing apples and oranges and as long as a person is happy with their respective field, who really gives a crap how "hard" it is?!?
 
Pir8DeacDoc said:
I believe that it is no longer possible to obtain a BS in pharmacy at any institution in the country.

I'd say most folks in a professional program think their program is tough. Relative "hardness" is probably school and student related morerso that simple reduction to what field of study you are in (i.e. medical v/s dental v/s Rx). I'm content to say that it's really comparing apples and oranges and as long as a person is happy with their respective field, who really gives a crap how "hard" it is?!?
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for those ******s who can show off to the others how hard his degree was, just to satisfy his giagantic ego.
 
I guess I have a unique perspective on this b/c I am in medical school and my father, and brother are pharmacists and my girlfriend is in pharmacy school. She just finished up her first year and some of the things she did were easier than things we did and some of the things she did were more challenging. But like I said previously, she is incredibly happy with her career choice and I'm super happy with mine. At the end of the day we enjoy discussing what we're learning.

I wish that everyone could find contentment in their career and not have to put other people down to make themselves feel good. 😉
 
At VCU the pharmacy and dental students take Microbiology and Physiology together (in the same class, same tests). The pharmacy class (my class) average was lower than the dental class's. I don't know, I thought they were both pretty easy classes, and I got my A's.

The difference in class averages could be attributed to: 1. pharm students not aiming for A's as opposed to the more "gunner" dental students, and 2. the class material favored the dental students more and the pharm students got bored (no pharm student cared to write lab reports on teeth and gums for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th time)

I have nothing else to contribute to this thread... just experience with 2 classes with dental students. At least in those 2 classes I didn't think it was very difficult.
 
Just cruising from the dental forum...I graduated from the University of British Columbia with a BSs.Pharm in 1993. The pharmacy program was a minimum 5 years at the time. One year general science and then four years of pharmacy courses. This year I graduated from the University of Louisville School of Dentistry. I just have to say in terms of difficulty both programs required just as much work to do well in and within each program there were different courses that challenged me. In pharmacy, med chem was quite a challenge because it combined organic chem and "road map" type problems. In dentistry oral pathology was the most difficult course. Just work hard and learn your material whatever it is.
James
 
Almost intuitively, you can see that Pharmacists and Dentists don't exactly compete for similar positions. Yet both are obviously respectable professionals in society's eyes. Though Pharm.D.s are still working towards being recognized as "Doctors" in the public's mind. Dentists have been notoriously known as the "premed that couldn't" (not taking a stab at the DDS, but this is a common misconception that people hold). Just like Pharm.D.s are considered by many B.S. Pharm as a new label on the same prescription bottle. (Which I will definitly argue) The Pharm.D. program provides more diverse opportunities to graduating practitioners than what the traditional program did before. Is a Pharm.D. who just graduated better than a person who's been doing community for 10 years? In the medical wards--yes! At Eckerds or CVS--no! Pharm.D.s are trained with more knowledge in performing drug literature evaluations, deeper understanding of pharmacotherapy of various disease states. Does an experienced BS Pharm have this knowledge, if they took the time to learn and develop these skills, sure! Long story made short--- Pharm.D. programs graduate practitioners with more indepth knowledge of disease state and pharmacotherapy than the BS Pharm program and also preaches against the philosophy that "the MD is always right" Do I discount BS Pharms ? (No, it's not the degree you respect, it's the knowledge base)

Now Compared to the other health care degrees, PharmD is a professional program with all rights and priveleges thereof. The buck stops here when it comes to pharmacy knowledge with the PharmD just as dentistry stops at the DDS and medicine for the MD. It has become increasingly difficult to get into the Pharm program each year to the point it is almost comparative to the MD and DDS programs. At my college the incoming class of '08 we had 1000+ applicants for 100 positions with 50%+ already having a BS and even 10% having an MS or PhD. Coursework is difficult, but to compare it to medicine and dentistry wouldn't be correct since they are different fields and requiring different knowledge bases that you must assimilate.

Hope this helps!

Harold DelasAlas, PharmD

UTMB School of Medicine '08
 
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