Difficulty of post bacc taken into account?

[bacctobacc]

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Hi all,

So I am in the middle of an intensive summer chemistry course (30 weeks of chem crushed into 9) at an institution known for their rigorous sciences and grade deflation. I've been out of serious science classes for awhile now, so this has been a very trying experience.

The curves are steep. There are 3 A's given in a class of 30 people. I am being curved against people that have taken this class series before. I got a B my first quarter in the class, and an A in the lab. I am studying 15-17 hours a day at this point and getting B's. I can't work harder than I am...but I'm not sure how to work smarter yet.

I am concerned that getting A's at this institution is going to be very difficult. Everyone is intelligent and works hard, but there are 3 A's given out per class (about). Everyone says a B at this institution is equivalent to A's everywhere else, but I know that GPA matters.

Should I switch post baccs after this intensive experience? I'm not sure I can reliably get A's with this steep of a curve.

 

[beBrave]

Hi all,

So I am in the middle of an intensive summer chemistry course (30 weeks of chem crushed into 9) at an institution known for their rigorous sciences and grade deflation. I've been out of serious science classes for awhile now, so this has been a very trying experience.

The curves are steep. There are 3 A's given in a class of 30 people. I am being curved against people that have taken this class series before. I got a B my first quarter in the class, and an A in the lab. I am studying 15-17 hours a day at this point and getting B's. I can't work harder than I am...but I'm not sure how to work smarter yet.

I am concerned that getting A's at this institution is going to be very difficult. Everyone is intelligent and works hard, but there are 3 A's given out per class (about). Everyone says a B at this institution is equivalent to A's everywhere else, but I know that GPA matters.

Should I switch post baccs after this intensive experience? I'm not sure I can reliably get A's with this steep of a curve.

I have spoken to admission deans and counselors on this subject and truth be told, unless you are going to Harvard, a B is a B. With Med schools receiving 5,000 applications for 100 seats, they will not be familiar with every institution and their grading practices.

 

[docelh]

If you're around SDN long enough, you'll find that everyone thinks their program is tougher than elsewhere ... or at least as difficult as other places.

I really doubt the difficulty of the program is going to give you a pass on getting B's. A 3.0 sGPA is not competitive regardless of where it was earned. And I also doubt that the B's would be A's somewhere else. Btw, I took biochem this past spring, and the instructor promised us it was the toughest course on campus; that said, I doubt it was harder than biochem at other schools.

I'm fairly certain that compressing a full year of General Chemistry into 9 weeks is tough to do anywhere, and that's probably where your problem starts.

Also, be aware that when you do apply, AMCAS will ask for a transcript for every school where coursework was attempted.

 

[beBrave]

OP, It sounds like you are trying really hard to get the requirements completed. I know the wait to apply feels like forever, but it will be much worst to complete all the requirements and then discover that you are completely non-competitive. I suggest switching to a less intensive program. I did an accelerated class over 4 weeks and the only people landing A's were those who had already taken upper division classes or had a very solid foundation (and even they were high strung over course material).

The MD head of my department department gave me solid advice; "only get A's, if you can't get an A, come see me". This isn't to sound harsh, however at this step in the game bad grades aren't allowed.

 

[bacctobacc]

OP, It sounds like you are trying really hard to get the requirements completed. I know the wait to apply feels like forever, but it will be much worst to complete all the requirements and then discover that you are completely non-competitive. I suggest switching to a less intensive program. I did an accelerated class over 4 weeks and the only people landing A's were those who had already taken upper division classes or had a very solid foundation (and even they were high strung over course material).

The MD head of my department department gave me solid advice; "only get A's, if you can't get an A, come see me". This isn't to sound harsh, however at this step in the game bad grades aren't allowed.

I went into this knowing it wasn't going to be easy, and I am not afraid to work hard, but I have never struggled this hard with academics before. I didn't realize how difficult this would be. A lot of times we have 24 hours not to only learn the material - but to learn it well enough to know how to integrate the techniques we just learned. I am getting better at it...but I have never been challenged in this way before.

This intensive programs is on the quarters system, so the 9 weeks divided into 3 week increments, and each 3 weeks represents one quarter. If you were me, would you drop now and start again in the fall (I have completed chem 1 and I am in the middle of chem 2...with chem 3 left), or would you tough this out until the end and change post baccs in the fall?

 

[TwinsFan]

Hi all,

So I am in the middle of an intensive summer chemistry course (30 weeks of chem crushed into 9) at an institution known for their rigorous sciences and grade deflation. I've been out of serious science classes for awhile now, so this has been a very trying experience.

The curves are steep. There are 3 A's given in a class of 30 people. I am being curved against people that have taken this class series before. I got a B my first quarter in the class, and an A in the lab. I am studying 15-17 hours a day at this point and getting B's. I can't work harder than I am...but I'm not sure how to work smarter yet.

I am concerned that getting A's at this institution is going to be very difficult. Everyone is intelligent and works hard, but there are 3 A's given out per class (about). Everyone says a B at this institution is equivalent to A's everywhere else, but I know that GPA matters.

Should I switch post baccs after this intensive experience? I'm not sure I can reliably get A's with this steep of a curve.

I took a Chem class over the summer a couple of years ago and it had a bit over 60 students; 2 As were given, less than 10 Bs and about 30 Fs. It was a state school. Honestly, more than 10-20% As is grade inflation, less than 10% is definitely deflation.

Excuses will not work, try some new things study-wise to go after the A. If this doesn't work consider trying an "easier" institution for your other courses. A 3.0 postbacc will hurt. However, succeeding where it is difficult will only help come MCAT time.

 

[beBrave]

I went into this knowing it wasn't going to be easy, and I am not afraid to work hard, but I have never struggled this hard with academics before. I didn't realize how difficult this would be. A lot of times we have 24 hours not to only learn the material - but to learn it well enough to know how to integrate the techniques we just learned. I am getting better at it...but I have never been challenged in this way before.

This intensive programs is on the quarters system, so the 9 weeks divided into 3 week increments, and each 3 weeks represents one quarter. If you were me, would you drop now and start again in the fall (I have completed chem 1 and I am in the middle of chem 2...with chem 3 left), or would you tough this out until the end and change post baccs in the fall?

First off, congrats on putting in the effort. Definitely don't give up or let current experiences throw you off course. Second you should remember that the vast majority of people in Medical school didn't get there by taking accelerated classes; they were just normal undergrads. Also please don't compare yourself to others, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses.

I was in your position and on the quarter system and I dropped the class. I suggest speaking to your professor first; if you have to struggle to get a B then I suggest dropping it. If you can pull a B then I suggest finishing the class and starting a new post bacc in the fall. If you are able to get a B, then worst case scenario you can always retake the classes to bump up your GPA later on for those classes (if the need arises). I do however caution you that if you are memorizing more but understanding less, this can come back to haunt you on the MCAT and in later classes.

Like I said above, don't drop it; talk to your professor first and then make the decision. Sometimes a change in the way you study can make a giant difference. I found myself learning things that were irrelevant to chemistry until doing another professors lectures who would deliberately point out the things you did not need to learn vs the things you did. The most amazing part was that the things you needed to know were so few and you have likely already heard of them; the major concept was understanding not memorizing. Focusing mainly on memorizing creates a vicious cycle, you have to focus on understanding first and memorizing second; ironically understanding makes it easier to remember.

 

[bacctobacc]

First off, congrats on putting in the effort. Definitely don't give up or let current experiences throw you off course. Second you should remember that the vast majority of people in Medical school didn't get there by taking accelerated classes; they were just normal undergrads. Also please don't compare yourself to others, everyone has different strengths and weaknesses.

I was in your position and on the quarter system and I dropped the class. I suggest speaking to your professor first; if you have to struggle to get a B then I suggest dropping it. If you can pull a B then I suggest finishing the class and starting a new post bacc in the fall. If you are able to get a B, then worst case scenario you can always retake the classes to bump up your GPA later on for those classes (if the need arises). I do however caution you that if you are memorizing more but understanding less, this can come back to haunt you on the MCAT and in later classes.

Like I said above, don't drop it; talk to your professor first and then make the decision. Sometimes a change in the way you study can make a giant difference. I found myself learning things that were irrelevant to chemistry until doing another professors lectures who would deliberately point out the things you did not need to learn vs the things you did. The most amazing part was that the things you needed to know were so few and you have likely already heard of them; the major concept was understanding not memorizing. Focusing mainly on memorizing creates a vicious cycle, you have to focus on understanding first and memorizing second; ironically understanding makes it easier to remember.

I had a come to jesus talk with my prof last week and he told me that he has actually told several people to drop the class - but I am not one of them. He believes that I can make it through. He said that I have a lot of work to do, but it's wrong to put such heavy expectations on myself when I haven't taken a real (not community college) science class in over a decade (seriously, what was I thinking signing up for an accelerated chem class ugh). He said that I haven't hit my stride yet but when I do it will be great. It's nice to have someone believe in you when you don't believe in yourself.

I needed to hear that to continue, because it's tough being demoralized every single week on exams that you simply do not have time to prepare completely for (I have been studying 17 hours a day to prepare...every second I am not sleeping I am studying). It's been a very rough month. It's not just me, which is sort of comforting. It's tough feeling like a complete idiot on a daily basis, knowing that the work you are putting in is not quantifying into the grades you want.

That said, I am concerned how I am going to hold up in this pressure cooker of a class. It's frustrating, because I understand the concepts (as much as I can given that I have 24 hours to study them before a test) but I am hitting a wall when I have to integrate them in advanced ways. I am trying to not hold myself to ridiculous, unfulfillable expectations, on the other hand, reality must be dealt with and I don't want to damage my post bacc GPA beyond repair.

 

[beBrave]

I'll share with you a pattern that I have noticed about myself and dedicated people on this path, we are all intelligent and we often have an affinity to learn these subjects. Pre-Med requirements are not easy. The institution, the professor and length of the class all determine how well you will do. While some students may call Pre-Med requirements easy, they are either underestimating things to come or their situation is different from your own. Its a lot of material that is very challenging. When you spread it across 3 - 4 years; doing sometimes only 1 subject per year, then the difficulty may dissipate. If someone just graduated from High school and did AP classes then yes it will be easier for them than someone else that has not seen the material recently or barely covered it in HS.

My professor also believed I was a good student as I could understand the material (despite not understanding her), however the insane amount of info in such a short period of time was too much. It's incredible that your professor sees potential in you however it still doesn't mean you should stay in the class and risk a poor grade if that is the path you're on (Pre-Meds do not have this luxury). You should ask your professor if you are still able to pull an A in the class and if not, how likely or unlikely you are to get a B; by totaling your current grades, they should be able to give you a good idea of what you will need to be successful. If you need excellent grades going forward to get a B, with a history of having difficulty in the class, I would suggest not waiting for your stride to come along and simply drop the class.

 

[Goro]

To me a post-bac is a post-bac.

Hi all,

So I am in the middle of an intensive summer chemistry course (30 weeks of chem crushed into 9) at an institution known for their rigorous sciences and grade deflation. I've been out of serious science classes for awhile now, so this has been a very trying experience.

The curves are steep. There are 3 A's given in a class of 30 people. I am being curved against people that have taken this class series before. I got a B my first quarter in the class, and an A in the lab. I am studying 15-17 hours a day at this point and getting B's. I can't work harder than I am...but I'm not sure how to work smarter yet.

I am concerned that getting A's at this institution is going to be very difficult. Everyone is intelligent and works hard, but there are 3 A's given out per class (about). Everyone says a B at this institution is equivalent to A's everywhere else, but I know that GPA matters.

Should I switch post baccs after this intensive experience? I'm not sure I can reliably get A's with this steep of a curve.

 

[darwinmed]

I'm doing a post-bacc myself, but from what I gather here and speaking to different advisors, adcoms don't really care where your grades are coming from.

Which is really quite ridiculous. When I was in high school I took Intro Bio at my local 4-year university and made an A easily. When I was in college one year later (an Ivy), I took the same class and got a D+. (Hence the current post-bacc 🙂 ) While I didn't study nearly enough for Ivy class, I did study more for that Ivy D+ than I did for the A at my local 4-year university.

So an A somewhere is most certainly not an A anywhere, but adcoms seem to refuse to acknowledge this simple fact. (For the record, in no way am I saying that the Ivy D+ should be considered acceptable for med school admissions; I should certainly be required to retake the class, and, you know, actually study this time around. I'm just using this example to illustrate that an A does not equal an A does not equal an A.)

Oh well, c'est la vie. It's the game we have to play to get into med school. To be perfectly honest, I would advise dropping the course if you still can.

 

[docelh]

While I didn't study nearly enough for Ivy class, I did study more for that Ivy D+ than I did for the A at my local 4-year university.

So an A somewhere is most certainly not an A anywhere, but adcoms seem to refuse to acknowledge this simple fact.

The MCAT is designed to flush out 4.0's from local state U's like above. I'm sure they got that covered.

 

[deleted307836]

I'm doing a post-bacc myself, but from what I gather here and speaking to different advisors, adcoms don't really care where your grades are coming from.

Which is really quite ridiculous. When I was in high school I took Intro Bio at my local 4-year university and made an A easily. When I was in college one year later (an Ivy), I took the same class and got a D+. (Hence the current post-bacc 🙂 ) While I didn't study nearly enough for Ivy class, I did study more for that Ivy D+ than I did for the A at my local 4-year university.

So an A somewhere is most certainly not an A anywhere, but adcoms seem to refuse to acknowledge this simple fact. (For the record, in no way am I saying that the Ivy D+ should be considered acceptable for med school admissions; I should certainly be required to retake the class, and, you know, actually study this time around. I'm just using this example to illustrate that an A does not equal an A does not equal an A.)

Oh well, c'est la vie. It's the game we have to play to get into med school. To be perfectly honest, I would advise dropping the course if you still can.

I don't think it's a matter of adcoms refusing to acknowledge this, but more a matter of practicality. Some Ivy's will have courses with "inflated" grades, some state schools will have courses with deflated grades. There would almost need to be some master key with the curves of each class at each school for individual evaluation at this level to be feasible - and that is not realistic.

Honestly, it's why applicants should research where they are going to school and what kinds of grades are given for different courses. I'm not saying people should go to the easiest school possible, but I think it's wise to avoid schools with an overly difficult reputation. This may not always be possible, but it is something that students can take into their own hands to a considerable degree.

 

[darwinmed]

I'm not sure I agree. From what I read, a 3.5 is a 3.5 to adcoms regardless of where it comes from. But a 3.5 from an Ivy is definitely a greater achievement than a 3.5 from a state school.

Look at it this way: even in the most grade deflated courses, about 10% of the class will likely get an A. (Of course, there are a few outliers, but we're talking about the vast majority of college courses.) I had zero trouble whatsoever being in the top 1% of my state school without studying a single bit, but put me at the Ivy and I'm immediately at the bottom half (granted without studying as much as I should have) because the composition of people is just so different. Nobody in the bottom half of even the most grade-inflated classes will ever get an A. Everybody at the Ivy would have gotten an A at the state school, so even in a hypothetical class where half of the class gets an A and half gets a B (which would never happen in reality), that's half of the class that has a B at an Ivy who would have gotten an A at a state school.

So I stand by my assertion that a 3.5 in pre-reqs from an Ivy should be given some serious weight, while a 3.5 from an average state school can be considered mediocre. But that's just not the way it works, and I understand that and accept it.

Oh, and your suggestion that pre-meds can choose to go to easier colleges only works for students who know they are going to medical school when they are 16 years old and applying to colleges. And to be honest, I think that is really indicative of a huge flaw in the system if students are being encouraged to play it safe and go for the easy A rather than pushing themselves to get the best education they can, regardless of if it means a few blips along the way.

 

[MedWonk]

I'm not sure I agree. From what I read, a 3.5 is a 3.5 to adcoms regardless of where it comes from. But a 3.5 from an Ivy is definitely a greater achievement than a 3.5 from a state school.

Look at it this way: even in the most grade deflated courses, about 10% of the class will likely get an A. (Of course, there are a few outliers, but we're talking about the vast majority of college courses.) I had zero trouble whatsoever being in the top 1% of my state school without studying a single bit, but put me at the Ivy and I'm immediately at the bottom half (granted without studying as much as I should have) because the composition of people is just so different. Nobody in the bottom half of even the most grade-inflated classes will ever get an A. Everybody at the Ivy would have gotten an A at the state school, so even in a hypothetical class where half of the class gets an A and half gets a B (which would never happen in reality), that's half of the class that has a B at an Ivy who would have gotten an A at a state school.

So I stand by my assertion that a 3.5 in pre-reqs from an Ivy should be given some serious weight, while a 3.5 from an average state school can be considered mediocre. But that's just not the way it works, and I understand that and accept it.

Oh, and your suggestion that pre-meds can choose to go to easier colleges only works for students who know they are going to medical school when they are 16 years old and applying to colleges. And to be honest, I think that is really indicative of a huge flaw in the system if students are being encouraged to play it safe and go for the easy A rather than pushing themselves to get the best education they can, regardless of if it means a few blips along the way.

Meh. I've taken classes at both a state U and an Ivy. The quality of teaching at the Ivy was better, but I'm not terribly impressed with course load or difficulty. I'm not convinced that 3.5 from an Ivy is really all that much better than a 3.5 from state U. An A somewhere may not be an A everywhere, but it should be close. Going from an A to D+ is a crazy gap. I can think of four possible reasons for this: 1) The prof for the Ivy Bio course is a d***; 2) The prof for the local 4-year is lazy; 3) The course at the Ivy assumed you had a more advanced level of understanding going in; 4) You're not being entirely forthcoming about the level of effort you put into the Ivy course.

 

[deleted307836]

Yeah, we may have to agree to disagree on that one. Some Ivy's are even known for grade inflation (not Princeton, though). Some State U's are known for grade deflation. Again, I think it stands that there would need to be some "master key" of average performance at these institutions to be meaningful. Of course, it could be argued that competition at Ivy's is higher and that the higher average GPA's are more reflective of this than of actual grade inflation, though I think the student bodies at many state U's are similarly competitive... thus focusing solely on Ivy's and giving boosts to these students alone does not make sense.

 

[The Bunk]

I have spoken to admission deans and counselors on this subject and truth be told, unless you are going to Harvard, a B is a B. With Med schools receiving 5,000 applications for 100 seats, they will not be familiar with every institution and their grading practices.

Do they literally mean just Harvard, or are other elite schools included in that?

 

[beBrave]

Do they literally mean just Harvard, or are other elite schools included in that?

They really don't care what school you went to. They look at the entire application.

 

[Pose]

Drop it.

Sent from my LG-VM696 using SDN Mobile

 

[darwinmed]

Meh. I've taken classes at both a state U and an Ivy. The quality of teaching at the Ivy was better, but I'm not terribly impressed with course load or difficulty. I'm not convinced that 3.5 from an Ivy is really all that much better than a 3.5 from state U. An A somewhere may not be an A everywhere, but it should be close. Going from an A to D+ is a crazy gap. I can think of four possible reasons for this: 1) The prof for the Ivy Bio course is a d***; 2) The prof for the local 4-year is lazy; 3) The course at the Ivy assumed you had a more advanced level of understanding going in; 4) You're not being entirely forthcoming about the level of effort you put into the Ivy course.

If we're going off of just a course here or there, I'd totally agree with you. I'm taking a class at an Ivy right now that is an absolute joke (summer classes are usually towards the joke end of the spectrum at Ivies), and I'll be the first to tell you that. But as somebody who has over 150 credits at an Ivy and over 100 credits at other 4-year and ccs, I have a pretty large personal experience to pull from when making overall statements.

To be honest, academia is one area where I am quite confident that I know my stuff. My entire family is in academia. My grandparents on both sides of the family are professors. Both of my parents are professors. My aunts and uncle are either professors or in admin (president/vice-prez). My siblings are either professors (2) or finishing a PhD program to become a professor (1). They have been full-time professors everywhere from Ivies to community colleges and everything in between. I can't even count the number of colleges and universities they've been affiliated with. I literally grew up on college campuses surrounded by conversation about academia. And they certainly don't share the same views on everything related to academia-there are lots of hearty debates-ALL of them share my assessment on the meaning of grades.

I tell them about med school admissions and they simply don't believe me! Literally. They really think it's so outrageous that it simply isn't true. When I told my dad that a 3.0 from *my state school* was considered equivalent to a 3.0 from *Ivy* his response was "Balderdash. Of course it's not."

I don't know med school admissions, I don't know the medical world, but I sure as hell know my academia. I know you guys didn't know my background, but I feel a bit like the Bush or Obama girls being told (incorrectly) what the inside of the White House residence looks like. I kind of know for a fact what the inside looks like; there is a right and wrong answer here. A 3.5 somewhere is most definitely not a 3.5 anywhere, and that's not really debatable. Anyway, although I wanted to get this out there just for the record, I won't be returning to this thread; it's clear that adcoms don't take into consideration the difficulty of the school, which is what this threat was about in the first place. And they have every right to do that. So while I disagree with their methods, this will be the last I'll say on the subject 🙂 Here's to all of us non-trad pre-meds joining that magical 4.0 club, wherever we may to do it!