DIRECT Pathway for IR

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veloG

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Newbie here, first post. Thanks for all of the anon. info.

What's the deal with the DIRECT pathway for IR outlined on the SIR site?

Any programs accepting applications for this track yet? The contacts are from Miami Vascular, Wash U, NW, UCSD...

Sounds like a good idea, but is it? A "minimally invasive surgery" residency?
 
veloG said:
Newbie here, first post. Thanks for all of the anon. info.

What's the deal with the DIRECT pathway for IR outlined on the SIR site?

Any programs accepting applications for this track yet? The contacts are from Miami Vascular, Wash U, NW, UCSD...

Sounds like a good idea, but is it? A "minimally invasive surgery" residency?


Im pretty sure I want to end up in IR as well... The thing that conccerns me the most, and Id ont think Ir ead on the site is if you are certified for Diagnostic as well when completing a fast-track program.....
 
I would think that you would have to be. The direct program isnt any shorter, so the only benefit is guaranteed early exposure to IR and a guaranteed fellowship spot.
 
As a radiology resident interested in IR/NIR, I would advise against the combined pathway. The state of Interventional Rads is in flux. Fellowships in IR are WIDE open at the moment. IR fellowship spots had a DISMAL fill rate in last years match. Why paint yourself in a corner by committing to the integrated pathway? If the bottom drops out of IR it would be nice to have the safety net of having a general rads skill set to fall back on. If IR were still UBER competitive like it was in the early '90s then the integrated pathway might be worth it. Besides, how do you know you'll like IR unless you've actually done it?

Best of luck.
Hans.
 
I'd also recommend against the IR pathway. I'd say about half of our residency originally went into rads thinking of going into VIR. We had one do it last year and none will be doing it this year. So your interests will change. Don't lock yourself in so early.
 
hans19 said:
If the bottom drops out of IR it would be nice to have the safety net of having a general rads skill set to fall back on.
I agree, but I assume that you would still be trained in diagnostic, primarily.

Thanks for the input everyone...I'm interested to hear about why IR fellowships wouldn't fill (presume: $ vs. add'l year training?) and why one might think the bottom would drop out on IR -- considering that IR salaries increased over 30% last 4 years, more than almost any other field of medicine and that more open procedures are being done with equivalent results by IR (endovascular AAA, carotid stenting, coiling, etc.). I read this as an increase in demand for IR, am I delusional?
 
veloG said:
I agree, but I assume that you would still be trained in diagnostic, primarily.

Thanks for the input everyone...I'm interested to hear about why IR fellowships wouldn't fill (presume: $ vs. add'l year training?) and why one might think the bottom would drop out on IR -- considering that IR salaries increased over 30% last 4 years, more than almost any other field of medicine and that more open procedures are being done with equivalent results by IR (endovascular AAA, carotid stenting, coiling, etc.). I read this as an increase in demand for IR, am I delusional?

Altough minimally invasive procedures such as those done by IR are the future of medicine, much of the concern about the future of the field comes from fragmentation of interventional procedures. IR has become the generalist of imaging guided intervention. They are still the best at it, but as specialists in different fields focus on the interventions that overalap with their own field, they are taking procedures away. Examples:

Vascular surgeons and cardiologist have taken the majority of the angiography and vascular interventions from IR in many hospitals (including my own).

Body imaging radiologists are doing RF tumor ablation, biopsies, cryoablation.

Bone radiologists are doing vertebroplasty, joint injections, epidural injections, bone biopsies, and the relatively new bone RF ablations.

Some urologists are doing perc nephs.

The list goes on. Sure there are some procedures that no one else does. But as these subspecialists focus on ONLY the procedures that involve their specialty, they take away from the general interventional radiologist.

It is a shame. IR is an amazing field. I believe it will survive the many turf battles by continueing to innovate. Unfortunately, not enough radiology residents are choosing the field and this may ultimately lead to the decline more than the turf issues.
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
It is a shame. IR is an amazing field. I believe it will survive the many turf battles by continueing to innovate. Unfortunately, not enough radiology residents are choosing the field and this may ultimately lead to the decline more than the turf issues.


You know, this really sucks. I wanted to do radiology mainly for VIR/NIR. Seeing that it is not going to be the best pathway for a radiologist just depresses me. If I had known this earlier, I would've applied to another field. Why aren't IR physicians fighting to keep this under their control? I went to an insititution where the IR guys were teaching the Vascular fellows the IR procedures...it just pisses me off. Why the hell do they do that? I like diagnostic radiology, but I don't think I will be satisfied just reading films and doing minor procedures 🙁 This has just been a freaking stressful 4th yr for me, just because of all this freaking crap about the future of radiology/IR.


I would rant/rave more, but I gotta study.

adios
 
Yup,
just to followup with the previous thread, I heard that IR at our hospital is now doing primarily line placements.
Cards- Angios
Vasc- AAA repairs
Urology- perc nephs
Pain- Vertebroplasty
and neurosurgery is doing carotid/intracranial stents, intracranial stents following the CREST and Sapphire trial results.
 
charcot said:
Yup,
just to followup with the previous thread, I heard that IR at our hospital is now doing primarily line placements.
Cards- Angios
Vasc- AAA repairs
Urology- perc nephs
Pain- Vertebroplasty
and neurosurgery is doing carotid/intracranial stents, intracranial stents following the CREST and Sapphire trial results.

I think lifestyle issues are at least in part responsible for the declining numbers in VIR. IR is a demanding subspecialty with surgery-like hours, ie. long days and frequent calls. In the recent past, a lot of private practice groups paid their partners equally, thus the Dx guys got get paid the same as the IR guys who had to bust ass for the same pay. As lifestyle issues come into play, it makes IR less attractive in an equal compensation scheme.

Secondly, there is the threat of turf issues ie. Vascular cherry picking all the 'easy' angioplasty and stent cases and leaving all the less compensating vascular access and complicated A-V fistula declots to IR. (Granted Vasc surg used to place central lines). Why is vascular doing this? Because endovascular interventions would otherwise 'eat up' a lot of vascular surg's bread and butter and BECAUSE THEY CAN. In the past, vascular surgery would refer to IR, but now that they are learning the techniques they are doing the procedures. After all, THEY control the supply of patients.

These issues are scaring away some prospective interventionalists. As a result there is a huge man power shortage at a lot of institutions. Some fellowships need a warm body to help with the work and are more than willing to train an eager vascular surgeon. Next year my institution will train a vascular surgeon, b/c no rad grad wants to step up to the plate to do an IR fellowship. So its a bit of a vicious cycle.

A lot of these issues will also affect interventional neuroradiologists with respect to neurosurgeons and inverventional neurology (yes neurologists want to start doing endovascular work).

None-the-less, the future is bright for minimally invasive procedures. There will be more than enough work to go around despite inteventional cards and vascular surgery's inroads into IR. Interventional Radiologists will need to become more 'clinical'. IE admitting and rounding on their own patients, and handling their own complications rather than pawning them off to vasc surg or medicine. They need to agressively seek referals from primary care docs before they go to vasc surg.

There will always be work for interventionalists. And there will always be new procedures being developed. (UFE and chemoembolizations). If you think you want to do interventional, just do it!

-Hans

PS.
Just make sure you keep up on your diagnostic skills... not because IR will die, but in case you want to slow down later on. ; ) If any of you guys decided to go the neurosurg or vascular route, what would you have to fall back on? General neurosurgery or general surgery? No thanks!
 
medstudent2005 said:
You know, this really sucks. I wanted to do radiology mainly for VIR/NIR. Seeing that it is not going to be the best pathway for a radiologist just depresses me. If I had known this earlier, I would've applied to another field. Why aren't IR physicians fighting to keep this under their control? I went to an insititution where the IR guys were teaching the Vascular fellows the IR procedures...it just pisses me off. Why the hell do they do that? I like diagnostic radiology, but I don't think I will be satisfied just reading films and doing minor procedures 🙁 This has just been a freaking stressful 4th yr for me, just because of all this freaking crap about the future of radiology/IR.


I would rant/rave more, but I gotta study.

adios


For those in medstud2005's position I would suggest doing a medicine or surgery preliminary year. That way in the event that you opt out of rads b/c you do not see IR fitting your wants/needs 10-20yrs from now, you can switch to IM or gensurg and do fellowships. The vasc. surgeons at my institution mentioned that they will begin implementing a new vasc surg tract that is 5 yrs total and trains someone to do the bread and butter gensurg procedures (hernias/cholecystectomies/biopsiesetc.) and concentrates the rest of the residency on vasc/endovasc techniques. You will need a to do gensurg intern year first. If you wanted cards you need a a genmed intern year first. If there is any doubt in your mind that you may not do rads then I would NOT do a transitional year. I am also a MS4 so take my advice with a grain of salt, but it made the most sense to me. I have been unable to find actual info on this vasc surg pathway on the net, but I imagine its out there.

I had an IR guy tell me that he thought IR would continue to deteriorate b/c there were not enough people going into it to retain the "turf." He thought it was inevitable that cards/vasc surg/neurosurg/neurology/urology would eventually do most of the EXISTING procedures pertaining to those field respectively. However, another guy with the same group was much more optimistic. IR seems to be a little bit of a dice role in my opinion, and you must make sure that you enjoy DR b/c that might be what you end up doing the most of. Just my 2 cents.
 
These are ominous signs for IR...how much of this is institution-specific, type-specific (academia, community)? Why would IR docs let these procedures slip away? Arguments from a junior med student perspective with limited exposure to these issues:

The numbers in IR may be dropping, but so are the numbers of people going into surgery in general + increased demand for IR-based treatments + somewhat decreased demand for open treatments = surgeons training to endovascular repairs but still plenty of work or IR, IF they fight a bit. These patients still need to go through IR to determine if they are candidates for stenting, etc. (a-gram), so they won't go by unnoticed.

Second, it's not unreasonable to think that there will be plenty of new procedures for IR in the future: you can get anywhere in the body through an artery or vein (if you are a trained radiologist) and you can stick a needle pretty much into anything (ditto the first parens). I'm thinking working with rad-onc for CA, STEM CELL DELIVERY to the brain, heart, liver, pancreas.

IR may lose some procedures to surgeons who fear losing patients to non-surgical treatments, but they have alot of other stuff to do and I'd like to think that there are a good number of IR docs who don't want to lose business to cards or surgery...I think there is still a future for IR.

Can we keep this forum open? I think there are a lot of people thinking about going into this field who might appreciate hearing from upper years in rads who may have more exposure to these issues. Oh, and by issues, I mean NOT board scores and not, "what are my chances...?" or, "should I do research?". Any one else tired of these questions? Who has a good answer, anyway?

Thanks again for the info.
 
I agree that IR will survive, and maybe thrive by its inherent innovative nature. The low numbers of residents going into IR is the only major stumbling block to that theory. Hopefully that will change.
 
Whisker Barrel Cortex said:
Altough minimally invasive procedures such as those done by IR are the future of medicine, much of the concern about the future of the field comes from fragmentation of interventional procedures. IR has become the generalist of imaging guided intervention. They are still the best at it, but as specialists in different fields focus on the interventions that overalap with their own field, they are taking procedures away. Examples:

Vascular surgeons and cardiologist have taken the majority of the angiography and vascular interventions from IR in many hospitals (including my own).

Body imaging radiologists are doing RF tumor ablation, biopsies, cryoablation.

Bone radiologists are doing vertebroplasty, joint injections, epidural injections, bone biopsies, and the relatively new bone RF ablations.

Some urologists are doing perc nephs.

The list goes on. Sure there are some procedures that no one else does. But as these subspecialists focus on ONLY the procedures that involve their specialty, they take away from the general interventional radiologist.

It is a shame. IR is an amazing field. I believe it will survive the many turf battles by continueing to innovate. Unfortunately, not enough radiology residents are choosing the field and this may ultimately lead to the decline more than the turf issues.

As an aspiring surgeon (porb vasc).......


EGGGCELLENT! EGGCELLENT! 😀
 
Theoretically, wouldnt a interventionalist benefit from the DIRECT pathway by getting more clinical exposure and thus be able to control their own patients and diagnose, treat and follow up on these patients? Wouldnt this help prevent the cardiologists and vascular surgeons from butting in? Wouldnt the DIRECT pathway therefore be better for someone that is sure they want to do IR than a one year fellowship?
 
RLMD said:
Theoretically, wouldnt a interventionalist benefit from the DIRECT pathway by getting more clinical exposure and thus be able to control their own patients and diagnose, treat and follow up on these patients? Wouldnt this help prevent the cardiologists and vascular surgeons from butting in? Wouldnt the DIRECT pathway therefore be better for someone that is sure they want to do IR than a one year fellowship?

Yes, yes, yes and yes.
 
Idiopathic said:
Yes, yes, yes and yes.

So why are people discouraging entry into IR and the DIRECT pathway? Sounds like if you really know you want to do IR, then the DIRECT pathway would be ideal so you can still compete in all the turf battles, while still being able to do DR if you decide you want to do less IR afterall. Doesnt sound like youre stuck doing IR to me, but expanding your options. How is the DIRECT pathway a bad idea?
 
RLMD said:
So why are people discouraging entry into IR and the DIRECT pathway? Sounds like if you really know you want to do IR, then the DIRECT pathway would be ideal so you can still compete in all the turf battles, while still being able to do DR if you decide you want to do less IR afterall. Doesnt sound like youre stuck doing IR to me, but expanding your options. How is the DIRECT pathway a bad idea?

Everyone expects the turf battles to take over IR, and then you have trained 'extra' in a direct pathway to prep for being a diagnostic radiologist.
 
With the direct pathway it seems that you you get more months of IR rotations at the expense of a year of diagnostic radiology. Whether you actually get more 'clinical' training depends on how clinically-oriented the IR department is at your particular department to begin with.

To those that think you can just opt out of the DIRECT Pathway if you find out that IR isn't up to what you thought it would be-- The IR attendings are counting on YOU to help them with the work load for that extra year. If you flaked out, the political repercussions could screw you later on. When you apply for that academic or PP job, you still need LORs and referrals from your Chair, PD and attendings. So think hard before you commit.

Now maybe some of you guys on the interview trail can enlighten me, how many programs actually offer the direct pathway NOW? A few years ago when I applied I only knew of a few UT-Memphis and UVa perhaps.

It seems the 'top' places for IR fellowship like UCSF and BWH don't have integrated pathways as far as I am aware. It seems like the programs that offer direct pathway might be strong, but are not necessarily the 'top' with regards to IR fellowship. So why not just do a rads residency and get into a top fellowship at UCSF and BWH? I'd rather have the flexibility of shopping around for the best IR fellowship, rather than committing to one particular program and one subspecialty. How do you know you don't want to do NIR or MR or Nucs, etc.

I am still seriously considering VIR or NIR, and if I were applying again I wouldn't do anything differently. Ie, I would get into the best rad residency I could get into and then cherry pick the best IR fellowship such as Dotter, Miami Vascular, UCSF etc.

Just my two cents.
 
Seems like to me that by continuing to opt for one year fellowships in IR instead of getting more clinical training in IR is falling into the hands of the cardiologists and vascular surgeons that are controlling patients. I thought the purpose of the DIRECT pathway was to provide more clinical exposure to help IR adapt to the demand of needing to become a more clinical specialty.

And UPenn offers a DIRECT pathway also i believe, and i thought they were a top program, at least in diagnostics. sorry, I dont know much about the top IR programs.
 
hans19 said:
It seems the 'top' places for IR fellowship like UCSF and BWH don't have integrated pathways as far as I am aware. It seems like the programs that offer direct pathway might be strong, but are not necessarily the 'top' with regards to IR fellowship. So why not just do a rads residency and get into a top fellowship at UCSF and BWH?

BWH is nowhere near the "top" IR programs. UCSF is good, but still not top.

A couple of the top programs are: Miami Cardiac and Vascular, Dotter, Upenn, Stanford, BID in Boston, Hopkins, UVA. Other places with excellent training, but less well known are Brown, Northwestern and Dartmouth.
 
Where else IS the direct pathway / clinical pathway offered? I've heard HUP and a couple of others...sorry to harp on this point, but I'm starting to think about electives and I'd like to target some places accurately.

Thanks for the help
 
I kinda want to bring this thread back to life, because I am interested in IR and the direct pathway, but I have no idea what the future holds for IR. Since the last reply to this topic was in 2004, what are some of the changes that have occurred since then? Are IR guys still afraid for the future?
 
I kinda want to bring this thread back to life, because I am interested in IR and the direct pathway, but I have no idea what the future holds for IR. Since the last reply to this topic was in 2004, what are some of the changes that have occurred since then? Are IR guys still afraid for the future?

Maybe it's just me but it feels like there is a resurgence of interest and optimism from within radiology, along with the acceptance that we have to be clinical, recruit, work up and follow our own patients etc. The old model of a requisition to perform a complex procedure followed by meeting the patent in the angio suite after they are preped and draped is long gone. But just as we have come to accept that appropriately trained clinicians can bring a complementary skill set to an endovascular program, it is apparent that radiology trained people bring a unique diagnostic and procedural skillset (as well often as the research and innovation driving these areas).

Obviously the quality of noninvasive imaging of (for example vascular) patients is greatly improved by having interventional radiologists leading those programs. This is also a potential referral stream which bypasses other specialists.

I get the feeling that those radioloigsts in and entering the intervention world today are willing to collobarate with interventionally trained clinicians who have undergone similar rigorous training but are also prepared to compete.
 
On another note, how competitive are these direct programs? I assume there aren't very many, and hence I would also assume they're pretty competitive.
 
On another note, how competitive are these direct programs? I assume there aren't very many, and hence I would also assume they're pretty competitive.

I didn't see much interest them in these year, but mostly I think it's becasue everyone is worried about how the ABR changes to board certification are going to affect radiology residency, so people are wondering about the future of the DIRECT path and how it will fit into this new system.
 
Here's the thing with the DIRECT Pathway. A fair number of places have it or claim to have it as you can see on the ABR site:

http://theabr.org/ic/ic_vir/ic_vir_direct.html

But when it comes to actually recruiting 4th year med students, only 4 programs listed 1 spot each this year on ERAS and NRMP:

Upenn, Minnesota, Christiana, and Arkansas-Little Rock

A couple other programs make their DIRECT pathway spot available to people who interview for diagnostic. The majority of the other spots go to people who are either already matched at a diagnostic rads program, or in many cases programs recruit surgery residents or sometimes IM residents.
 
There are currently 3 ways to do IR
1. conventional pathway (traditional)
1 year internship ; 4 years residency; 1 year IR fellowship
2. DIRECT pathway
2 years of clinical training; 27 months diagnostic; 21 months IR including cardiology, surgical oncology, vascular surgery rotations
3. Clinical pathway (just have additional training during the 4 years)

There is in the work a primary certificat in Interventional Radiology
1 year internship and 4 years of pure IR training (14 months of scattered diagnostic training). You will only be boarded for IR. This is going to the ABMS for review in 8-09.

The SIR meeting shows that more and more practices are becoming clinical. And that IR is doing quite well. Membership is up and this was one of the best attended meetings in recent times.
 
Wow, this thread's been dead for a while. lets see if we can't bring it back.

A lot of the discussion above was great. Thanks for all the insight. 👍

That said, anyone here care to share their experiences in a DIRECT program? Any word on the status of IR in the turf battles? Can anyone comment on how recruitment into DIRECT is out of an IM program?

I was recently at an IR Conference at my institution and was surprised to see that one of the main presenters was a vascular surgeon. But he presented from a purely surgical point of view and kept stressing that IR and Vascular need to work together to find better solutions.

There was a panel discussion with the Vasc and an IR and the positivity was high. A lot of discussion of multidisciplinary approaches to patients, and how there is PLENTY of work to go around. I sure hope that's true. I'm hoping to eventually get into IR, whether via DIRECT or fellowship.
 
Wow, this thread's been dead for a while. lets see if we can't bring it back.

A lot of the discussion above was great. Thanks for all the insight. 👍

That said, anyone here care to share their experiences in a DIRECT program? Any word on the status of IR in the turf battles? Can anyone comment on how recruitment into DIRECT is out of an IM program?

I was recently at an IR Conference at my institution and was surprised to see that one of the main presenters was a vascular surgeon. But he presented from a purely surgical point of view and kept stressing that IR and Vascular need to work together to find better solutions.

There was a panel discussion with the Vasc and an IR and the positivity was high. A lot of discussion of multidisciplinary approaches to patients, and how there is PLENTY of work to go around. I sure hope that's true. I'm hoping to eventually get into IR, whether via DIRECT or fellowship.

I think in larger institutions they do want to work together. It benefits mostly everyone. In PP then all bets are off. Some places, PAD is dominated by vascular surgery with IR only having a small piece of the pie. However, there's more to IR than just PAD. There truly IS plenty of work to go around. You really don't see either field starving in PP.
 
IR has beome much more than PAD.

IR started of in radiology from the field of angiography. seldinger (a european radiologist) figured out how to image a blood vessel with out a cutoff and then Charles Dotter took this further and developed a technique to actually open up a blood vessel remotely without surgery.

As the father of IR , he realized that IR physicians have to take care of the patient and become clinical specialists.

IR has become mutiple service lines.

inlcuding

nonvascular:
biliary interventions: biliary obstruction (cancer)/ biliary stenting
nephrostomy tubes: obstructive hydronephrosis
g tubes, gj tubes, jejunostomy tubes
abscess drains (revolutionized ID)
biopsy (anything in the body xcpt CNS)

vascular
aortic interventionsl
-aortic aneurysm repair endovascular
-thoracic aneurysm repair endovascular
-dissection treatments
PAD
-acute limb ischemia
-chronic limb ischemia (ulcer management etc)
-claudicant treatment
-renal artery stenting
-treatment of chronic mesenteric ischemia
venous disease
-dvt lysis
-pe lysis
-ivc filtrs
-venous ablation for varicose veins
vascular access:
piccs
tunneled catheters
etc
interventional oncology
-chemoembolizaiton, drug eluting beads, internal beam radiation therapy
-hepatic artery ports
-ports
-ablations (RFA, cryoablation, microwave, IRE, HIFU)
lung cancer; liver cancer; bone mets; kidney cancer etc.
women's therapy:
-fibroid embolization
-pelvic congestion syndrome
-tubal recanalization for fibroids (fertility)
-tubal occlusiosn
pain interventional:
-vertebroplasty;kyphoplasty
-facet injections
-IDET
-pain pumps
-celiac plexus blocks
-coblation
neuro-interventional
-carotid stenting
-stroke lysis
-stroke thrombectomy
-intracranial stenting
-avm embolization
-tumor embolization
-aneurysm coiling


as we take on more. it has become a very busy clinical service requiring hard working motivated individuals. the sky is the limit but takes dedicated and motivated physicians.





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